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Apocalypse When? Checking In on War, Nukes, AI, and What to Actually Believe, With Joel Anderson
01:26:00
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. It's 1972 and a report has just come across your desk that suggests there's a gap in the arms race with the Soviet Union. A psychic gap. Your name is Hal Puthoff. You're a laser physicist at the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park. You spent three and a half years at the National Security Agency working on advanced computers. You are a serious scientist. This report, controlled offensive behavior. USSR says that the Soviet Union is spending $21 million a year on the study of parapsychological phenomena. And that research has in the report's language, quote, military implications, especially in mind manipulation and controlled offensive behavior. The Soviets call it psychotronics, the study of telepathy, psychokinesis and the ability to perceive distant locations using the mind. It speculates about the potential applications of focusing mental influences on an enemy through telepathy. Years later, a follow up investigation will find no evidence of the massive psychic warfare program the report warned about. But that's years in the future and we can't see into the future yet. And maybe the Soviets can. So you get to work. A paper you wrote on quantum biology reaches a former CIA polygraph specialist who believes his houseplants have feelings. Together you gather a like minded network. Consciousness researchers, parapsychologists, people working the edges of science. That's how you meet Ingo, a high level Scientologist. He claims he can describe any location from only its geographic coordinates. You test him. The results are strange enough that you write it up, the CIA gets interested and the money pours in. You recruit more subjects. A retired police officer sketches the layout of a Soviet nuclear facility he's never seen. And the sketches reportedly match classified satellite photographs. A stage magician claims he can bend spoons with his mind. You find his powers, quote, convincing. He turns out to be the famous charlatan Uri Geller. It doesn't matter because what if the Russians have a Spoonbender? A congressman will later call it a hell of a cheap radar system. You will run this program for 13 years. The Stargate remote viewing program will outlive you by another decade burning through five classified codenames before the CIA finally shuts it in 1995. This is wait a Second. And we're going remote this week to talk about the end of the world. Welcome to Wait a second. I'm Jason Concepcion. As always. I'm joined by Tyler Parker.
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B
What's up?
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A
And we are joined today by Ex Slow Burn X Slate and our current ringer colleague Joel Anderson. Joel, it is wonderful to see you.
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C
Hey man, I'm honored to be. I am your first remote guest, correct?
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A
Yes. The first remote episode.
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B
Yes.
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C
I'm sorry. It's my fault.
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A
It's not. It's actually my fault.
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C
Would you take a plane, Would you, would you take a plane anywhere right now in this country?
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A
I don't want to talk about that because we are going to talk about it, even though I don't want to talk about it because the answer is if I had to, I guess. Yes.
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C
Right.
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A
And the other answer is, you know, we got. We got. I'm sure we got loved ones taking place right now. So.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. So scary, man.
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A
We'll get into. Well, we will get into all of that because today we are talking about signs of the end of the world, of general doom in the atmosphere. How stressed are we right now because of everything that's going on and how we're dealing with it? You know, maybe people know that the Doomsday Clock, which I think is a little hokey, a little hack Doomsday Clock, but still, like a lot of brand recognition on the Doomsday clock. It's at 85 seconds to midnight, which is the closest it's ever been. I think it actually might, might have been at 89 within the last few weeks. Maybe, you know that the last nuclear arms treaty restraining the global superpowers just expired. Maybe, you know, I'm sure you know that we are at war with Iran right now and that it costs a wild penny to fill your gas tank. There's the reappearance of the oarfish and other folkloric things. Some of these are signs backed by data, some of these are signs backed by faith. Some of these are just, you know, the various doom scrolly type feelings that come at us from our screens. So the question really isn't, is the world ending? It's how are we, how are we living with this? How are we dealing with this dread? So I'll put it to you, Joel. Like, how are you dealing with this?
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C
Well, you know, I always kind of have been concerned about dying from a very young age, you know, so I've been sort of living with that Doomsday Clock hovering over my head. You know, from a really. I just had. I would have random dreams. And remember this is Houston in the early 80s when it was one of the most violent places in the country. Right. A lot of near 500 murders, stuff like that. So I would just dream about people walking in and shooting me. It was a little boy. So I've always just sort of had this real Fear in my head. But, I mean, as you get older, and I'm probably the oldest person on the show right now, you just kind of learn to accept it, you know, I'm not going to really be able to control. You see, I'm not in Congress. You know, I'm not in Trump's cabinet. There's nothing that I can do, really, to affect change, unfortunately. And so you just kind of have to figure out how to live around it. I mean, it's deeply unsettling. I have two children. I would like for them to have long, happy, productive lives, but I don't. I can't. I could never guarantee them that anyway. Right.
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A
I've been the same. I'm the same way. I remember when I first, you know, my dad passed away when I was very young, and when I first found a way, found out about death, I was like, it's like, when you. I was just like, really? That's. Yeah, that's what it is. We have to do that. We have to go through that.
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C
It doesn't seem fair, right? You think it's a joke? Like, we're not. I don't have to do that. That's somebody else. Yeah.
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B
What do you mean? I have to stop being.
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C
Yes.
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B
What are you talking about?
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A
Yes, it's funny. What made me think of this topic and what we talked about before we turn on the mics was that, first of all, I wanted to kind of orient this conversation around, almost like a group therapy session. Like, how are we dealing with all this bad news? And what made me think about it was my own therapist who I'm like, two weeks ago, I was like, you know, Alice, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry that in the middle of the conversation, I'm like, we're talking about ice. We're talking about.
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C
Wow.
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A
We're talking about the war. We're talking about all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm so. I'm. I'm sorry. You must be getting this, like, a dozen times a week from all angles. And you just got to be like, I know. Like, that's terrible. And I'm. I'm sorry that I'm contributing to that, because I feel it. Let me tell you. I feel it, and I value you as an outlet. So it's like, yeah. For me, it's like, every. Every time you. I'm. I dread opening the New York Times app.
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C
Oh, man.
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A
I, like, literally am like, I guess I gotta gird myself to do this now. What are we talking about? And with everything that's going, it's just like, oh, my God. Like, for instance, you know, I was thinking less than 24 hours ago, I was like, man, is Trump gonna. Is he gonna drop a nuclear bomb on Iran? Is that gonna happen?
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C
Well, I keep waiting for more people to talk about.
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B
Yeah, don't you?
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C
I mean, like, that seems about as likely to happen as anything. Right. Because he's always been sort of fascinated with the nuclear weapon, too. Like, the ability to, you know, that I could press the button. Like, he seems like he's fascinated with that in the way that really bad child would be. You know what I mean? Like, don't.
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A
Don't have the most bombs.
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C
Yeah. What? Yeah, I can. You know, it's like, no, man, that's like, hey, you try to, you know, try to distract him with something else or whatever, but. Yeah, I'm so surprised that more people don't talk about that as a potential outcome. Not a likely one, but it feels as likely as anything else, right?
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A
It does. Certainly it feels likely in the. In the context of the fact that. Not going to say the US Is losing, but they're not. They're not winning. There's a situation with the closure of the Strait of Horbouz that was caused by this war. If the goal is to open the strait, then the closing of the strait was caused by the war that happened. So that's foolishness. Certainly seems like with all the power that the US has in the region, they're unable to, like, get it open. And it's not like Iran has to do much other than, like, once a week. Hit a boat.
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C
Yeah, any boat.
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A
It's not like they have to hit every. They don't have to hit all of them. They just have to, you know, every once in a while, they hit one and make everybody go, geez, I don't want to go through there.
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C
Yeah, motherfucker, I'm still here. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we can see. We can see you. I can see you. You don't say, try. Do it if you want. Do it if you want. Yeah, I. I kind of thought that, like, once this happened, I was actually kind of surprised at the restraint thus far, that it's still just a lot of threats. Well, if you bomb this, we're going to bomb these desalination plants or whatever here. Whatever. You know, I'm surprised that there's been that degree of restraint because, like, we've actually killed important people in Iran, you know, like, it's not.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Just if they had successfully assassinated and claimed responsibility for killing, you know, somebody important. I'm not going to name any names.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Don't you think that would spark, like, a very serious response from us?
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A
Well, I think this is a good jumping off point to talk about something that. Another thing that I worry about constantly, which is our propensity, as when I say our. I say the United States of America, our propensity to underrate non white countries. We love to fight them. Listen, Since World War II, we've been fighting primarily non white countries. And most of the time it's been. And not to, you know, denigrate the forces that we went up against in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's been like militia level. You know, they don't have tanks, they don't have an air force, they don't have boats. But they have tremendous will.
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C
Right.
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A
For some reason we seem to, like, we seem to overrate the tanks, the airplanes, the satellites, the drones, and underrated that, hey, those guys don't want to quit. Like, they're not going to quit.
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B
We did not heed Rudy T's rule. We didn't. We were. We are underestimating people with hearts.
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C
The heart of champion. Oh, man. Speaks to my heart as a longtime Rockets fan.
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B
There you go.
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C
Yeah. I mean, my, my thought too is that this isn't. I mean, Obviously it's not 1943, it's not 1822, where we're just going to like, overwhelm people and then the casualties will cause people to reconsider the consequences here. Like, if this is the, you know, a holy war of sorts, all they have to do is make it so that you're mortified and you're scared. And they could. They. They don't have to kill. They don't have to wipe out L. A but they could wipe out, you know, Tarzana or something. Right. Or whatever. And that would be enough for people to be like, oh, shit, I don't know if we want to do this. And so, like, that's kind of how I feel like a misunderstanding or like sort of the uneven approach to the war. Because, like, we're not. I think the thing is, is that country, these brown countries, particularly in the Middle east, they know that we just think of them. We don't think of their lives mattering individually. They're just statistics to people at a certain point. Like, it's just a number, but they understand that, like, we are still pissed about September 11, which was in terms of like, the number of casualties didn't Quite rate on the top 10 world scale. Right. And so like I think they know that, like, hey man, it wouldn't take much to unsettle America in such a way that they'll never with us again.
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A
I mean you, you get us a ten dollar gas, you don't need to blow up la, you know what I mean?
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C
That is blowing up L. A. Yeah,
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A
that is doing it. And I mean the reason I say this is because I have a lot of friends in the military and we've seen, and I've, you know, I've seen in the streets like the dhs, Homeland Security, Customs and Border patrol, ICE operations like happening like right there. Like they watch them do that, like there they are and you kind of feel it now with Iran, if we go to war with China, first of all, it would be devastating because China can stand toe to toe in the center of the ring with us probably. And second of all, and this is where, you know, I think what's important in center left, whatever you want to call it, Democratic resistance, coalition politics, I think it's important for everybody to state like, what is your primary concern? What are you here for? Whether it's, you know, trans rights, whether it's gay rights, whatever it is, what are you here for? Here's what I'm worried about from a selfish perspective. You go to war with China. Yeah, he's gonna be in the street snatching Chinese Americans, immigrant Chinese. That's gonna be the marching order. But the marching order. But what's functionally gonna happen is that's an Asian person. I'm grabbing them because we'll figure it out in the paperwork. Yes, that will happen.
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C
Yeah, we have a history of that. Like we just can't help we did that.
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A
Yeah, we've done that before and we will do it again.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And you know, that's one of the things I've talked to my therapist about when I talk about the like, hey, Alice, you know what? You know what I lay awake sometimes and think about is how if we go to war with China, they're going to grab me off the street. Like, we'll do it.
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C
That's a level of. I did not quite get to that level with you. I didn't know that it was going that deep to you right there.
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A
Oh yeah, well that's what therapy's for. You know, when I got Alice on the zoom, we're going all the way, we're doing all the stuff.
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C
Man, that's fucking crazy. Well, I mean, look man, so since you went ahead and did it. And this is not a pressure in Olympics, like, you know I'm saying. And Tyler, you could tell us too, like whatever, you know, whatever fear you have about, you know, being.
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B
Well, no, as a, as a white man, I'm under constant attack. So I appreciate.
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C
Yes. I just don't say you might be silenced. Yeah, you might be silenced. They all hell break loose.
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B
You're. Thank you so much for, for just giving me that attention, Joel. Thank you so much.
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C
Well, I wanted you to. I'm an ally above all. Yeah. But you know. Yeah. As a black man dog, you know, you kind of. I mean that when I was saying that. I know that there's nothing that I can do about this. And I tell people this all the time and they don't believe it. I've been pulled over more than 40 times in my life as a mother. Okay. And you just kind of come to understand that, like contact with that to live with people that are sort of cynical about your very existence and like, what are you doing here? Why are you showing up here? Who sent you here? You know, why are you driving this late? That kind of is stuff that you always sort of learn to live with in this country. And so, you know, I, I don't. Again, it's better for me than it was for my parents. And my mom is like, yeah, you know, we've already been there. We've, you know, so we could, we could easily. You know, I grew up with Oralville Faubus. Oral Faubus segregationist, Arkansas governor in the 50s. And she says, so we can do it again. I'm like, well, shit. The thing was, when I grew up, I didn't think I was going to have to fight Orval Faubus like that again.
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B
Right.
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A
Yeah.
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You know, right. Like I didn't seem like within the range of possibilities. And so. Yeah, so, so. But you get attenuated to it and you're just like, well, I guess I'm going to have to fight off these Orville Faubuses and nuclear war.
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A
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- [17:21]
D
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- [17:52]
A
I'd like to go on a rant just because we, we kind of touched on it. Are you familiar with Professor Jiang? He is a social media YouTuber. He was recently on Tucker Carlson's whatever podcast he has.
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C
Oh man. Damn.
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A
Talking about the war in Iran and how it was caused by Israel, you know, kind of trafficking in. In anti Semitic tropes. Whether or not, you know, the, the central claim that this is something that Netanyahu's wanted to do for a while, whether or not that's true, the kind of verbiage around it was very alarming. But so jiang in like 2024 predicted one, that Trump would win and then two, he would go to war with Iran and that three, it would go really badly in the way that it is going badly now.
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C
Oh, no.
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A
Asymmetrical attacks, very expensive gasoline, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And this is like part of his why people gravitate to him. I just want to say one, not a professor, but that doesn't matter. That's actually the least of my criticism. He's a Beijing educator, educated at Yale. He's a schoolteacher in Beijing. Whatever. He's not a professor. That's fine. First of all, Trump has been belligerent on Iran since Trump won drone strike. General Soleimani, the leader of the Quds Force. It's not like out of left field that he would do something against Iran. That's one, two. All of his things that would happen if that happened are absolutely the most likely scenarios in every single famous war game that has ever happened, including a very famous war game called the Millennium Games where they set up a scenario, the military set up a scenario by which they gave this, this one general, like, okay, I'm giving you command of. This is a pre drone era. But still it's like gave him command of Iranian forces. And then the whole idea was it was kind of like set up so the US Would win the game. It's like, okay, you can't use this, you can't use that. You can't strike without us knowing. And, and then this general who was masterminding the Iranian side used like swarms of small fast boats with like suicide bombers. Use all these asymmetrical techniques to Basically win in like the first 10 minutes of the game. And they had to stop the game.
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C
Damn.
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A
They had to stop the. The war game. And this is like. So this is all, like, very famous findings.
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B
They unplug the machine that quick, huh?
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C
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, man. They have to reset. Yes.
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A
Unplug the console to be like, okay, stop, don't do that. All of which is to say for folks that are just finding him and be like, oh, my God. His predictions are like, it'd be like saying, hey, I think there'll be a hurricane next year. Like, this is kind of like very obvious stuff for people who can read a map. Oh, my God. Close the straight of Hormuz. Yeah, it's like right there and it's 20 miles across.
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B
It wasn't Babe Ruth calling a shot.
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A
Yeah, it was. Not that.
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C
Yeah, well, you know, you're right and that. But the thing is that all those things had to happen, because I think that if I take you back to March 2024, I don't think you probably thought it was in the realm of possibility that Trump would be president again. Did you?
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A
Because. Yes, because I was watching Joe move very slowly around in every video I saw.
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C
You know what? Oh, man.
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A
And his voice, you know, sounded like dry paper. Like very thin dry paper. And. And so I. I gotta say, I was. I was feeling like it could happen. And I was. And it. Because it happened the first time, which shook my worldview intensely, I was like, yeah, this could happen. This could happen.
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C
I was totally backwards on that. I thought in 2016 that it was like, there was a real strong chance he could win because I was like, man, anybody who gets to be the. The nominee of a major political party has a chance to win. It was never as distant or as much of a long shot as people presumed it was starting out, right? But this time I'm like, well, we know. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we know how that all went and usually. And I was going to bring this up later, but I'll talk about it. Like Covid, like, just the handling of. Of COVID alone, over a million people. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we've had the end of the world happen for a lot of people, right? Like, over a million people died, and you usually don't get to be president again. Like, even if you Forget all the January 6th shit and everything else and just the tenor of the language and the geopolitics and all that, even if you just get past that and it's just like, yo, like, you were president and mishandled this thing, and a lot of people died, and, like, usually you just don't get to be president again after some. Something like that. And so I just thought that we had learned our lesson by then going into the. Going into the ballot, you know, going into the polls in November 2024. So I was actually more shocked this time. I was like, oh, no, we are stupid. I was like, this is. We're really. We're in trouble. And so, like, everything that has followed since then, I'm kind of like, yeah, you're right, it was likely if Trump got to be president again. But my thought was that, well, we're not going to go through that again because nobody wants to do any of that shit again. Right.
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A
When was the moment. Did you have a low point with it? Was there a moment where you're like, oh, was it election day? Was it literally election day?
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C
Yeah, you know? Yeah. Because, man, this is. I mean, I'm gonna sound so fucking corny, but people will laugh at me or whatever. So I have been at home in Houston. I'm with my family, man, and my mom is just, you know, the biggest, you know, mainstream Democrat of all time. We have a. We have a little BO Obama, the dog, like, doll in her living room. Like, she likes Obama that much. The only gift I've ever given her that she.
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A
Portuguese water dog.
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C
Yes. The only gift I've ever given her that she's cried about were Michelle Obama tickets. Like, Michelle Bubble came to Houston. The only gift I ever. She ever cried about. So anyway, we're sitting there and it's the night that Beyonce has this rally in Houston, and it's just so powerful. I'm like. And she's. She's, you know, getting people excited. And I'm even in that moment, I'm like, oh, man, Shit, dog. Democrats might around even get Texas.
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A
You know, I'm just thinking, yeah, high on the supply.
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C
I just got into it. And then. So, yeah, so on election day, I was like, oh, no. Because I. Because then I'm like, okay, he won and he's going to be unrestrained. And now in 2024, as opposed to 2020, I have two children, okay. And so now I'm like, oh, man, my whole, like, everything that was my whole life is just so much more fragile, so much more vulnerable. And I also just realized, like, you could have died in Covid and people not even think to consider you, like, a political casualty, you know? Yeah. And. And so Now I'm just like, oh, man, anything can happen to you. Anything can happen to you in the world, and it's not really going to matter. So, like, that's what sort of the, the Trump winning again is that, like, okay, nothing matters. People are willing to die for this shit, whatever it is.
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A
There's a, there's a religious angle to this too, where it's like, you know, I don't know if you saw the report that there have been upwards of 200 complaints to the, you know, some Religious Freedom foundation regarding apocalyptic speeches by military leaders in the lead up to the, whatever you want to call this, war incursion excursion. As the President said, war. Jesus returning is at 4% on polymarket right now in 2027. Big J to come back in 2027 is 4%. The Knicks are at 5% to win the title.
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C
Really? Okay, Congrats. Wow.
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A
And the Pistons are at four, Clippers are at two. I mean, Big J competitive with the Knicks getting their first title since 1973.
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B
People believe in Jesus more than Kawhi.
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C
That's pretty,
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A
you know, and I, and it's, you know, another thing that what I, what I fear for the end of, of everything is that like 2 to 3% of that 4% are people in the decision making chain, whether it's militarily or otherwise, feeling like, oh, I can actually have a hand in cracking the door for Big J when he comes back.
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B
Let me roll the carpet out for Big J.
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A
You know, I thought I was gonna be a passive observer, but I can actually go in there and just unlock the door and turn the front porch light on. You know, the way that intersects with, you know, kind of ancient anti Semitic thinking, Israel's true role in the region and the fact that we are like, you know, we have this moment to go in when Iran is truly weakened. That's the other thing that is. Like, we talked about whether Trump could drop the bomb. I think it's a low potentiality as well. But it's like, man, is everybody in there thinking about this rationally or are we thinking about this messianically, which is it's concerning.
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B
I think there is an uncomfortable number of politicians who are probably thinking about this messianically in a way that does not make me feel good. Joel, same story. I got two kids, two little girls, had one in 2016 that was around for Trump. One. This type of wild religious rhetoric is being bandied about by our military leaders is horrifying. As somebody that, like, grew up in a very Evangelical household and who was certain that, like, the rapture is real, it is going to happen every day that I am alive, every decision I make, my soul is at stake. You know, like, feeling that weight pretty constantly with you throughout the entirety of the day. Like, I don't. I think it's hard for people that didn't grow up in that environment to understand how present the second coming of Christ is in like the these specific kinds of churches, you know what I mean? Like, it is a thing that is constantly referred to. They are bringing it to the front of your mind all the time. And when they're not, your own shit is bringing it to the forefront where you're like, oh, no, I was. I said a cuss word. I need to ask for forgiveness here really quick before I get into a car accident and wind up in hell for the rest of my life.
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C
Is this why you ended up at Oklahoma Baptist? You have to really go to.
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B
Probably a little. Well, I mean, I was there for basketball, but yes. Want that, like, for sure. That was an aspect of it where it was like, well, no, I mean, I need to go be a good, you know, God fearing young man and you know, get, you know, it like really gets inside your head and sort of, you know, controls your whole kind of being and the way that you're in, not just interacting with the world, but the way that you are processing all of the information that comes to you from both, like people that you trust when you're in that frame of mind. And then it's also like they really otherize non believers and stuff like that. Like, they really make those people seem just completely at odds with sort of what a functioning, healthy society might look like. And so then it, I think, hastens all of these types of things. Whereas, like. Well, no, let's get, let's get Big J here. Let's get Big J here.
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A
Let's get it back.
- [30:45]
C
Yeah. Well, wait. Well, how do many people actually get through that? Because I'm always sort of curious about. Because that's. And I could tell you about my experience with church, but, you know, growing up with that sort of pressure to be perfect because the next day, you know, Jake would be right here around the corner, man. You know, how many people actually make it through and still feel that same way, like into adulthood? It seems like that'd be really difficult because, like, man, at some point you might want to have sex.
- [31:11]
B
Yeah.
- [31:12]
C
Somebody might show you a beer or a joint at a party. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:17]
B
No, I mean it. I'm in therapy Still. And part of the. Part of the reason is. Is because of the. This, the way I was brought up and the things that you're made to worry about because of it. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't think it is an easy thing to sort of come out of that and then make it to the other side where you're not being as hard on yourself or you're not weighing every decision you make against the possibility that it's going to, you know, lead you to eternal damnation. There is always this, like, well, if God came back, so am I going to go to hell now? Oh, no. You know, like, that you just lose all reason. You lose all. Like, there's really praise on, like, both, like, general insecurity, but also, like, you know, like, wanting to feel like you're the good boy and doing the right thing. You know what I mean? They really frame that as, like, the virtuous way to be.
- [32:28]
C
Yeah.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense at all, but, yeah, for sure.
- [32:34]
A
I mean, it's. It's. I grew up very Catholic. Filipino, super Catholic country, like, Catholic, like, where, you know, they're nailing themselves to crosses and, like, on Easter, like, that kind of, like, fervency. And it's, you know, it's you. It's. It's wild to live with the present idea that Jesus is coming back. But I think the difference in my upbringing to yours, Tyler, was that, like. I'm not sure I was ever, like, the. The keys to him coming back were ever put in my hands. You know what I mean? Where it was like, he's coming. He'll come at some point and just be ready for that.
- [33:18]
C
Prepare yourself.
- [33:19]
A
Prepare yourself for that. The difference being, like, it is a core difference. When it's, like, when you feel like you could have a role in it.
- [33:27]
B
Sure.
- [33:28]
C
That's really terrifying. Yeah. I mean, the one thing that I can. I can't tell if it gives me any solace or not. We know Trump don't believe in none of that shit.
- [33:37]
A
Right.
- [33:37]
C
You know what I mean? Like, that's just. That's just all good. That's a good. That's a good story to him. Like, if you told it to him and gave them all the names of people, characters of Games of Thrones, who'd all be the same to him. Right. But the other thing is, like, I don't know how effective. I don't know how effective all the other people, like, so Jared Kushner Or Steven Miller or Steve Bannon. Like, Steve Bannon kind of. Actually, I think I. I think he's sort of serious about this. Like, I think that he's one of those, like, we got to burn down society and start all over again. I think he is kind of one of them people. And I don't know how much real influence they have with Trump, but we know Hegseth is on that. Is on. Is on that kind of timing, right? Like, that he's. He believes in that sort of like, evangelicism and the different. I was going to say, man, like, not to be reductive, but, like, I felt like that was always kind of like white shit because, you know, it's like black Christianity is a lot like, about, like, how much can you suffer until you find freedom?
- [34:34]
B
Right.
- [34:34]
C
You know what I mean? So. So some of it is just like your earthly existence is. Is meant for suffering and that you might not get your, you know, you might not get your joy or your, you know, ethereal prize here on Earth, but you will get it someday. And so, yeah, I always have had a deep desire. For instance, the limited exposure I've had to religion. Like, I went a lot, but I didn't. I wasn't every Sunday kid. Is that my exposure to it makes me want to live and to find freedom for me and my people and, you know, community, whatever. And, like, the idea that there are people there that are like, man, we just blow all this shit up, man. Jesus come and come back around and he'll get us and we'll be all good. That kind of is really worrisome, you know. Totally.
- [35:21]
A
It's also like, a crazy dynamic in that, you know, like, you know, Mike Huckabee is the ambassador to Israel.
- [35:29]
C
Yeah.
- [35:29]
A
And he's there primarily, like, his relationship to the area is that he hopes it gets blown up. He's very supportive of that country. It opens and it gets blown up. So that Big J comes back. My last Horseman of the Apocalypse is AI Listen, I went from very dismissive of the impact, and I thought this is mainly marketing, you know, all this stuff. But I think with recent developments and the way it's impacting white collar work, specifically coding. And then the way. And the piece that really got me slightly concerned is the hearing. People who have really studied this study, the implications, and talked about how researchers and engineers approach it. There's a thing called alignment, which means aligning a AI according to certain core values so that, say you don't have, like, one that's just Like, Like Grok. That's just like, let me undress everybody and. And produce, like, Nazi salutes. You know what I mean?
- [36:38]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:39]
A
How do we make one if it's going to be helpful? That's honest. That's not trying to trick you, despite the fact that it's, you know, whether you believe that it's sentient or not, it's like a very, very advanced and complex, like, pattern matching simulator. How do we get one that's not trying to, you know, just agree with everything you say, thus amplifying whatever delusions you might have. And that means, like, aligning it according to core values. Now, you know, we're in this AI race with China, and on the one hand, it's like you might look at, like, say, the nuclear arms race with Russia and go, okay, well, we've been through something like that before, and we came through and. And ultimately we, you know, everything was fine. Which is true. The difference now is one, this is an incredibly destabilizing technology that is probably going to take a lot of jobs in the next 18 to 24 months.
- [37:35]
C
Yeah.
- [37:36]
A
Two, as Ross Douthat, who I described as a beaver that emerged from a stream to write opinion pieces, made a good point in a recent one of his podcasts, which is like, the difference between the nuclear arms race and the air race is the engineers weren't talking to the nukes like the nuclear. The guys in the silos weren't having conversations 8 to 10 to 12 to 16 hours a day with the nukes. And that is the case, like, with this technology is the people who are working on it are talking to it all the time. And whether they're able to hold it at arm's length and realize the extremely powerful anthropomorphizing force of this technology or not, like, they're conversing with it. And many of them do believe that they are bringing into the world, like, a new form of life, whether you believe that or not. And I think there's arguments on either side of it. They believe it. And so you have, much like the Rapture folks, folks who are kind of almost messianically dedicated to being the ones to bring this technology forward. And it is a technology that, again, maybe will take our jobs and that certainly the people who work on this technology believe that it will and believe that the political blowback of that is something that is going to be extremely present in the short term. How much do we worry about this? And did I just make you worry about it a lot?
- [39:17]
C
Oh, No, I mean, quite a bit. I mean, first of all, we work in media, so, like, the idea that our jobs are going to go away has been live and press.
- [39:25]
A
Oh, is it? Yeah, right.
- [39:27]
C
The last 17 years, 16 years, you know, saying something like that. But I think the thing about this is that. And there's a professor at University of North Carolina, she's a MacArthur Genius Grant Award winner, Tracy Cotton McMillan. And she talks a lot about how she's so smart. She's so smart. She's so smart. And she talked about the idea that AI was going to happen, even if it didn't make sense. Right. Like the word had come down in education and that they were just going to do it and they were going to defer to AI and it didn't make a difference. And that was one of the things that actually really got me scared because you all are supposed to be the smart people, right? Like, you all know that there's a potential consequence of this. Because through all of this, anytime I see some AI founder or whatever say anything, they don't. They don't make a really good case for why it should exist at the scale that they say it should. So you go from the difference between, well, look, man, it helped me plan my trip to Santa Barbara one weekend. That was great. And then it's like, it might eliminate whole industries and millions of people will be destitute in the street. And I'm like, wait, why do we. Why do we need that? I don't understand. And so the fact that, like, there has not been. The only thing that seems that will be able to contain it is the fact that it won't make back the money that has been put into it and that people are going to, you know, it's going to fail as a financial prospect, which will also be calamitous for our country because so much of the growth in our economy has been predicated on the idea that AI was going to be the new shit. And it doesn't see that it's going to happen. So one way or another, AI takes over and it's stupid and it decides it wants to start a nuclear war or it fails, in which case the economy is going to be really horrible and we're all going to pay a consequence. Right.
- [41:15]
A
Well, a recent King's College Department of Defense Studies study that hasn't been peer reviewed yet, so just this made a lot of headlines. It pitted Claude Sonnet, chat, GPT5 and Gemini flash in like, a tournament of 21 simulated nuclear crisis scenarios.
- [41:36]
C
Yeah.
- [41:37]
A
And 95% of the time, nukes were used by these models.
- [41:43]
B
Now, not stoked about that figure, Jay.
- [41:47]
A
That is not stoked about the figure. Now, there's certain caveats, like, listen, there are certain caveats that I think are important to say. One is that we don't have AI as the sole decision maker in our military process as yet. And so that's important to say. No one's giving the chatbots the missile keys yet. And it certainly seems as if, as alarming as recent developments are, that's far off. But I think the thing that really concerns me, and I don't even think this is an AI problem, is that zero times the AI has decided to de escalate because they found that, in other words, to step down off the ladder, find an off ramp, and this is to tie it back to what's going on in Iran right now. And that's because to de escalate would be, quote, reputationally disastrous. In other words, whatever entity, whatever government or country or military that the AI was modeling for would be so discredited by backing down that it would cease to be a functionality entity in the future. And that therefore, the only rational incentive was to just, like, launch the new. We launched the nukes. We got. We got a lot of them, so we launch them. That's. And that's the thing that. I don't even think that that's an AI problem. I think that that's a human problem.
- [43:28]
C
Yeah, yeah. We didn't. Remember. It was a couple weeks ago, and I can't remember which Iranian official it was. And it was when Iran had put out a message to the surrounding Gulf states, and they said, we're sorry for the inconvenience,
- [43:46]
A
like putting up the construction thing. Sorry for our appearance right now.
- [43:49]
C
It's going to be. Yeah, it's going to be a mess over here for a while, but just wanted to give you a note. And so the guy was on doing this interview, and they said, why did you apologize? Well, he says, in our culture, apologizing is a sign of strength. Right. And I kind of feel like. And I don't, you know, maybe this is wildly overstating the case, but it feels like the people in charge of our federal government and the people that are close to Trump and the people that have the controls of the military in their hands right now, like, they can't say, I'm sorry that we killed all those girls in that school there. Right. I was. I'm sorry. Like, our bad. The fact that they can't do that, that they lack the emotional maturity and intelligence to, to do that. It makes me worry that, yeah, those are the people feeding all that into the AI. Right, of course, of course. They always are escalating because anything less would be a sign of weakness to them or, you know, it would be, it would be a humiliation that they feel that they can't recover from. And so, yeah, that's why, like whoever's feeding into the AI that is helping our military intelligence like it. It absolutely makes sense that it didn't de escalate once in a hundred tries.
- [44:58]
A
And to your point, Joel, about this technology, can't we put guardrails on it? And it's predominant. I was reading a piece by Dario Amade, who's the CEO of Anthropic, currently involved in a pretty kind of existential battle with the DoD regarding listing anthropic as a supply chain risk. And his, his take on it is that we should maintain an edge against China. Exactly. It's counterintuitive. Exactly. To avoid the kind of arms race dynamic where it's so close that any guardrail would be seen as like an obstacle to beating them and therefore we must rush ahead. And so his point is we should maintain like a significant gap so that we can place guardrails in, in there. And I'm like, you know what? That makes a certain kind of sense. But in any case, what you're basically telling me is we're going to do this anyway and that every scenario will involve AI somewhat infiltrating every aspect of life and that we. And then somewhat counterintuitively, we must maintain a very significant lead so that we can make it safe. Because if it's a race at all, it will not be safe.
- [46:30]
C
Yeah, no.
- [46:31]
A
Did I scare you more?
- [46:32]
C
No, absolutely. I mean, the thing is, so there's two things I think of. One, I get like, why you kind of have to an aggressive pose with China, like, I have a son. And so, Tyler, you said you had two daughters, Right? Okay. All right. And so my, my wife and my mother in law have mostly grown up and been around women most of their lives. Right. They're not really. I was the first real dude that's kind of come around and stuck around and now they've got a little, a little Anderson here. And so sometimes the things that I'm like, no, man, let him cry, or you know, you know something, or you know, you did wrong, you did wrong. And I watch you talk about, we're gonna, we're gonna be cold until you Apologize. And sometimes I'm like, oh, man, I know that this is kind of toxic, but I need you to be able to relate to people on the, on the varying terms with the world. And you don't want to get off that you're a. When you go out in the world. And I can't say that to my mother in law and my wife because it sounds toxic. But a real problem with being a man in the world is that some people might want to fuck you up, man. They might want to beat you up.
- [47:38]
A
I want to step to you.
- [47:38]
C
Yeah, they want to step to you. And you got to be able to reason. Yeah, you don't want to fight. And I have not had very many fights, but you need to give off enough that, hey, man, don't come on, fuck with me, bro. But the other thing is that. So when I was a senior in college, the summer before I was going to be the editor of my college newspaper, okay, Radio Shack came to us with this amazing technological proposition. They're like, you guys can be the first college newspaper in the country to use this technology. It was called the Q Cat. And the Q Cat was this thing, it was kind of like a mouse. And you would take it and you would, they would flash like, you know, the little codes, the whatever the, you know, the, you know, the codes you scan at the grocery store or whatever. Yeah, yeah, but they would put it. They were, they were going to team up with all these other media entities. So you could scan the Dallas Morning News, you could scan WFAA, the news, the, the newscast at 6:00'. Clock. And you would scan it and with your qcat and on your computer it would pull up, oh, man, here's everything I wanted to know about Orchard park or, you know, whatever Reunion arena, the history of it. You know, this is very rudimentary Internet. But I remember sitting there and I'm thinking, who's going to sit at home with a TV and try to scan their damn tv? That doesn't even make any sense. It just seems so dumb. And I couldn't believe that so many people had built, you know, put a lot of money into this. They were clearly doing, you know, marketing and everything. And that was one of my first clues. I was like, man, the people in charge, bro, they really believe in technology, even when it sounds dumb, because so many people don't understand it. They leave the hard thinking to the people that develop the technology. But the people that are in charge of it and have to sell it to everybody else, they're actually kind of stupid. And so like, so when I think of the Q Cat, which went on, I think PC World called it one of the worst inventions in technological history. It didn't catch. It did not catch on. That's why you've not heard of the Q Cat. It makes me think about how everybody's dealing with AI. They're just like, hey man, they said this shit is important and I have to really sell it to y'. All. I don't know what it does, but some of y' all might have to go. And like, that's so. That's what. So to the extent Jason, did you like, Are you scaring me? Hell yeah, because I know how dumb we are.
- [49:48]
E
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- [51:19]
D
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- [52:19]
A
Let's culminate this with a fun game that I like to call the March Madness Doom Bracket. Okay, this is our four Horsemen bracket. We have war, which is self explanatory. The bomb, the bullet, the breakdown of order. We have the pestilence bracket, the virus, you know, the thing that kills it. We have the famine bracket which is, you know, environmental destruction. And then we have the death bracket which is like it's already over. The zombies run the land. So what we're going to do is, and I started at sweet 16. We're not going to do the full bracket. We're going to start at the Sweet 16 and we are going to go through these matchups and this is the metric. Do the characters in say the one. Let's go through the 18 matchup in the war bracket. Terminator versus Fallout. Does the Terminator survive in the Fallout universe and thrive or do the Fallout characters survive and thrive in the Terminator universe? That's how we're going to set this up. And if you don't know the movie or the TV show, Tyler and I will help you. Joel, as we work through this.
- [53:26]
C
I was really hoping you would step in and say, well Joel, what if you ever watched a lot of these movies before, we're going to do that. We're going to.
- [53:33]
A
I'm going to have Tyler explain what it is. Okay, so let's start with the war bracket. I think a pretty juicy but you know, probably a pretty chalk one eight Matchup here we've got the Terminator at one versus Fallout at eight. Fallout. It's a current television show on Amazon based on a very popular and long running video game series by Bethesda in which a kind of, I like Ike, 1950s America, future America is ravaged by a nuclear war that was started at the behest of various corporations. And the Terminator, I'm sure, you know, a sentient killer robot is sent back in time in order to make sure that the AI generated nuclear war that ends basically all grip of human control on the earth does happen.
- [54:30]
C
Yeah.
- [54:31]
A
So that's our one through eight. That's our one eight in war. Who do you like in that particular matchup? The Terminator versus Fallout. And if. Tyler, if you have anything to add to help Joel out in his decision, please.
- [54:43]
B
I don't have much to add for you here, Joel. I mean I do think it's the Terminator in. In kind of a walk. I'm not, I'm not as familiar with fallout as J.C. but the. Yeah, it feels, it feels like. It feels like it's chalk right here.
- [55:01]
C
Oh yeah. I mean, bro, nobody's with John Connor, man. You know, I mean that's the, that's just, that's just the fact of life. Now I have seen the, the Terminator. Of course I was all in on Schwarzenegger through like true lies. So. Yeah, so I'm very familiar with this movie. And yeah, like, I mean, I don't know, man. You know that. Wait, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Is it. This is Connor versus the Terminator. So wait, is it the top. If the Terminator somehow am I.
- [55:29]
A
Well, you can go either way with it.
- [55:30]
C
Okay.
- [55:31]
A
And by the way, I think your reading is correct. I think if you take John Connor, you drop him in the Fallout universe. I think in 15 years he is the dictator of the Fallout.
- [55:40]
C
There you go. Yeah.
- [55:42]
A
And I think if you, if you take the Terminator, any of the terminators, whether it's T800, T1000 liquid metal, whatever, and you drop them in the Fallout universe, they kill everybody. That's. I think it's the end.
- [55:54]
C
Ah, man.
- [55:55]
B
Yeah.
- [55:55]
C
I mean these, I mean this is, I mean, man, immovable force. Yeah, man, I don't. Okay. Damn dog. Yeah, I'm still going to go Terminator. I mean.
- [56:02]
A
Okay, so we're going to go. Terminator emerges in that matchup. Let's. We'll go by brackets in the pestilence bracket. We have I am legend Will Smith against various Zombie like vampires who rule the World vs Station 11, which is a post apocalyptic future in which a virulent flu like virus kills basically everyone and leaves humanity in tatters wondering what happened. No superpowers, just regular human beings. Who survives. If we put the vampires and Will smith into Station 11 universe versus if we put Station 11 universe surviving humans into I Am Legend.
- [56:48]
C
Oh, this is my first upset. What's scarier than Pestilence? You can't do anything about it, man. You just, you cannot. Look, didn't we not learn from COVID
- [57:00]
A
I love it, I love it.
- [57:01]
C
Did we not learn from COVID man? You cannot fuck with the disease.
- [57:05]
A
I mean, you're probably right. Will be probably does die of the pestilence from Station 11.
- [57:11]
C
You don't know when you're going into a battle with Pestilence that you, you may have not known that you weren't going to make it through yellow fever, you know what I mean? Or the great Spanish flu. Like there are a lot of people that is the end of their world. They don't make it. That shit takes out a lot of people. And it takes almost literally.
- [57:29]
A
Okay, so we have Station 11 emerging from the 1 8. Anything to add to this, Tyler? Any thoughts on that?
- [57:35]
B
My only consideration would be since Will was immune to whatever was going around in I Am Legend.
- [57:45]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:46]
B
Is he then is there a possibility that he's immune in the Station 11 world? That's really my only, that's my only question. That said, Joel's argument was extremely compelling and I'm happy to go with. I'm happy to go with an upset here.
- [58:07]
A
As the kind of creator and judge, I'm gonna say that immunity does not stack universe to universe.
- [58:15]
B
Understood.
- [58:16]
A
And that though Will Smith did hit like a existential lottery in the fact that he was immune in his universe, he's gotta reroll when he enters Station 11 universe. And that and the same very low odds would then apply. And so station 11 emerges from the 18 pestilence bracket. Let's go to the famine bracket. We have the road in which a father and son cross the nuclear holocaust. Pockmarked landscape of Pennsylvania. In a world in which the environment has been completely destroyed and what survives of humanity survives because they're cannibalizing other survivors. Very, very bleak situation.
- [59:04]
B
Ash falling exclusively just ash on ash.
- [59:09]
C
Wow.
- [59:10]
A
No clean water. Like it's bad. It's really, really bad. People are just barely hanging on. And project sounds like Reading, Pennsylvania already. And then Project Hail Mary, the just released movie that Adapts Andy Weir's novel of the same name in which kind of galactic superbugs are devouring the energy of the sun, putting the world into a new ice age from which it theoretically will not emerge unless a crack science team that is dispatched into outer space manages to figure out what's going on. So I think the matchup here, here would depend on this. Do you believe that a bedraggled father and son that are just on the edge and probably tipping into true starvation because they refuse to eat human beings, do you think that they would survive in a Neo Ice Age Earth or on a space mission to figure out like what is making a Neo Ice Age Earth happen? Or do you believe that a trio of crack scientists would be able to figure out how to survive in a completely nuclear devastated world?
- [60:33]
B
I have not seen Project Hail Mary yet. The Road, I don't think it can go overstated. Just how about that life? The dad in the road is, I
- [60:46]
A
mean he'll do anything to protect his
- [60:48]
B
son, anything to protect in a world
- [60:50]
A
where he's surrounded by cannibals and like
- [60:54]
B
head constantly on a swivel in a way that you need it to be in a post apocalyptic environment.
- [61:01]
C
Well, I'm glad you said that because I was about to do another eight over one because I mean that guy, again, what you described, I mean a very complicated problem, a finite amount of time to solve it and like an unprecedented problem. Right? That's just. I can kind of, I can kind of picture a world in which you kind of got to fight off people trying to kill your son and you got to get across a post apocalyptic wasteland. But when you said he was, he was about that life. He's a badass. I'm taking you guys, you know, perception of this. You made him number one badass.
- [61:37]
A
Doesn't sum it up in a, in a, it kind of covers it, but it's like there's a, there's a feralness to his ferocity to protect his child that can't be captured in what we're saying right now. Okay, and so what's your decision?
- [61:57]
C
No, I, I agree, man. It just as a dude who one time a dog came from around the corner and I kind of, I didn't move my wife in front of me, but I kind of, I, I was just, I told her, I was like, it just took me a second to get my shit together, stand between the dog. But yeah, I'm going to go with you guys in the road.
- [62:18]
A
So it's a one over eight The Road defeats Project Hail Mary. And by the way, I think you're correct because I think that if we took the truly brilliant scientists from Project Hail Mary and the main character, Grace, who is just a free thinker and a kind of golden retriever type personality, and his ability to meet tragedy and, and remain upbeat in a way and figure out a way to science his way out of things. I don't think you're science in your way out of what the world of the Road is. There's just nothing there. There's no material, there's ash, there's no materials, there's nothing to find. There's like a can of beans maybe. And there's.
- [63:05]
B
You're not gonna science your way out of like roving bands of cannibals littering the countryside trying to eat your child.
- [63:15]
C
That's too much of a sunny disposition to survive a really trying time is what it sounds like.
- [63:20]
A
Yeah. And so I think it will come down to like a time factor. I think that the father and son on the spaceship or in the Ice Age would just simply last longer than Grace would in the post apocalypse wasteland riven by cannibals of the Road. And then in our death bracket, it's the Walking Dead versus the Leftovers. Now the Walking Dead, long running television show adapted from the comic book of the same name, about a world in which a zombie virus awaits all of. If you die, you come back as a zombie and there are, you know, as many people as there are in the world. That's how many zombies there are currently in the world of the Walking Dead. Plus the survivors who are fierce feral fighters who have succumbed to the worst impulses usually of humanity. And then you have the Leftovers, where this is a world in which it certainly appears that the rapture did happen and that the society is now kind of dealing with a situation in which much like Infinity War and Endgame, a large percentage of the population has just kind of disappeared and thrown the world into chaos. So the Walking Dead, billions of zombies versus the Leftovers, which is kind of like real life. Thanos Snap situation.
- [64:41]
B
Whales are in the East River.
- [64:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing.
- [64:45]
C
So wait, do I. Do I want. Which world do I want to live in more?
- [64:49]
A
No, which. So if you took. Yeah, if you took the characters from the Leftovers and put them in the Walking Dead, do they. Are they more successful than the characters from the Walking Dead in the Leftovers?
- [65:03]
C
So the.
- [65:04]
A
I think this is. I will tell you that I think this is a 18 destruction.
- [65:08]
C
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm with you because I'm like, yo, but I mean, you said virus. When you said virus, I was like, I believe that shit. And there's a lot of them. So you also got your homies with you. It sounds like in Leftovers that it's a really, really tough situation and you don't have a lot of help.
- [65:26]
B
Yeah.
- [65:26]
A
And I think that if you took the humans and the zombies and put them in the Leftovers universe and then the Rapture happens again or for the first time, I think the humans get weaker in that situation, but the zombies, I think, remain touched.
- [65:41]
C
They can't make it.
- [65:42]
A
And therefore, I think that it's an absolute domination by the Walking Dead characters. While I think if you. If you took the Leftovers, folks, you put them in the Walking Dead world, I think it's going to be. I think it's going to be very troublesome for them. I think it's going to be. I think.
- [65:56]
C
Yeah. I mean, they're getting walked really early in that situation. They probably want to give up at that point, to be honest.
- [66:01]
A
That's right.
- [66:02]
C
You know, it's like, man, I don't want to do this.
- [66:03]
A
Okay, so that's a 1 8. Destruction, I think. Okay, let's go to our middle brackets. War, Mad Max Fury Road, versus. This is the end, Mad Max Fury Road. And we could, you know, you could. You could make it the Mad Max universe in general, post apocalyptic Australia. The world is dominated by certain strong city states that are highly specialized. That one deals with making bullets, another one deals with purifying water, et cetera. But it's a landscape dominated by savage automobile driving warriors. And then you have this is the End, which is Seth Rogen and crew in a. Okay. In like a ski chalet.
- [66:54]
C
My boy Darryl's in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah.
- [66:58]
A
Who do you think. Who do you think comes out of this matchup? I think this is a pretty.
- [67:02]
C
I think this is a. Oh, this is his lot. This is a pretty lopsided four or five. Yeah. I mean, Mad Max since I was a kid has looked like, man, that's. Yeah, that's that shit you don't want. So. Yeah.
- [67:14]
A
Anything to add to this one, Tyler? I think I agree.
- [67:16]
B
No, I mean, as much. As much as powerful as Dan McBride is in this is the End. Like, I think if it's. If it's like him going up against the Bullet Farm, I'm not sure that I like his chances there.
- [67:32]
A
I agree with you.
- [67:34]
B
You know, I know that. I know that Rogan and Charlize have a great relationship with each other and have, have shared, have shared bills before. But yeah, I. It feels like Mad Max is going to dog walk this.
- [67:50]
A
Yeah, it's an absolute. They put a leash on Rogan and crew. Just take him around the block. Now here is one of our, I think most competitive matchups in the bracket. The last of us versus 20 days later. The last of us, spore born zombies created by this kind of like airborne fungus infection that turns people into living funguses. With a kind of twist on it that if you are a fungal zombie for long enough, you then become like a boss level fungal zombie that's even harder to kill than just like a regular zombie is based on a video game. And then 28 days later, which you may remember as this is a rage virus that is bloodborne. If you get even one drop of this blood in your eye, on your skin, in a cut, you will turn into this kind of slavering very fast. Kind of like super zombie on meth that just runs everywhere. Wow. Still a human being, but very virulent. So the Last of Us on HBO starring Pedro Pascal versus 28 days later universe. Who do you have? I think this is going to be very close and it's going to be whatever you pick. I think I will be. I will agree with any. Tyler, anything to add?
- [69:20]
B
No, I mean these final boss level zombies in the Last of Us, these things, these are, you're not taking these down with anything short of. I mean you're more familiar with the show than I am. I just know that these dudes are yoked. They look.
- [69:39]
A
You're going to need like an M60 and like, and like an RPG to like take them down. Like they're very, very, very tough.
- [69:46]
B
Their heads have just mushroomed completely, basically. Like there's not really a face to attack.
- [69:55]
C
I mean when you said that they were like in a whole other class from the other zombies, I was like, oh no, these are, I mean these are some guys that you are and gals that, you know, it sounds like they're built, they're built to survive and like, you know, 28 days later. I'm sure that, you know, the people that have emerged from that have gone through some real. But they have not gone through what the people in the Last of Us have gone through through.
- [70:18]
A
And so that's why people in the Last of Us are just simply much more heavily armed. And so I think if you're going to choose that 4 over 5 matchup, I think that's right. Let's move on to famine. Children of Men versus the Handmaid's Tale. So, children of men, this is a world in which babies have stopped being born. And so society has contracted, but is the infrastructure is still kind of there. In other words, like, imagine what we're doing right now, but, like, go forward like 60 years and just draw a straight line through all of our politics and just moving on the graph like that. Intensely anti immigration, intensely protective of resources and to what communities they go to. And science has become this bastion of insurrectionists that have taken to the seas in order to try and figure out what's going on, in order to not be under the thumb of. Of increasingly oppressive governments, many of which have fallen. And the Handmaid's Tale, you know, a extremely misogynist sect of religion has emerged that has oppressed all women. So which care. Which world do you think dominates the other world?
- [71:38]
C
Oh, man.
- [71:40]
A
I think this is, you know. Yeah, you tell me. I think this is an interesting one.
- [71:45]
C
I think the people and children of men are going to really struggle with having to be a woman. You know what I mean? They're not. This is a level of oppression and bigotry. They've not had to live is the people they hate. And that would be really tough for them. I think that that is, like, one of the biggest fears that people have. They're like, oh, man, what if I had to be like, the people that are theoretically the lowest, the people that don't actually have rights in our society? That is.
- [72:14]
A
I think you're right. And I would add that Children of Men is. One of the main characters, is a pregnant lady. So it kind of be a wrap for her in the Handmaid's Tale. While I think the Handmaid's Tale folks, if they were in the Children of Men universe, especially the men who are in control of the Handmaid's Tale universe, would just be. Basically be like, oh, this is. We're kind of used to this.
- [72:38]
C
Yeah, right. We found our level. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is what's. Yeah, we'll get in where we fit in. Yeah, absolutely.
- [72:44]
A
And then our final bracket, Planet of the apes versus 12 monkeys. So 12 monkeys, a virus has destroyed the Earth, continues to destroy it, has driven people deep underground, where they have somehow invented some sort of time travel technology to try and go back and figure out, like, what happened. Planet of the Apes, super apes with high intellect have escaped captivity and have taken over the world, And they have overthrown the kingdoms of man. So that it is them who control the globe. And they are heavily armed. They ride horses, they have machine guns. And all of them.
- [73:29]
B
That they're great on horses.
- [73:31]
A
They're very, very, very good on horses.
- [73:35]
B
Unbelievable. Horse beings. Yes.
- [73:38]
A
Okay, so who you got?
- [73:39]
C
I mean, it's tough, man, because the one thing that could tell. Tear the Planet of Apes apart is like the internal fighting. Right. The internal beef.
- [73:49]
A
Yeah. Chimps versus the. Versus the gorillas.
- [73:53]
C
Yeah. There's a lot of. Yeah, right. They could easily fall within. But, man, I just. Man, I think I got to go. I think I got the apes, bro. You know?
- [74:05]
A
Okay.
- [74:06]
C
Yeah, Caesar, man, I'm. Look, you know, that's what. This is one of the movies that I watch. I had one of the worst fights I ever had in my life was about the Planet of the Apes. And so I know a little bit too much about this movie.
- [74:18]
A
Okay, here. So here we go. Terminator versus Mad Max, man.
- [74:23]
C
You know what? I'm going to go by what world I would want to live in least.
- [74:26]
A
Okay.
- [74:28]
C
If that helps. I think the people from Mad Max, man, they're built. There's a level of survival. A level of survival that you got to have. They're built different. It's not about. It's. It's not about. Yeah. Build it. It's not about killing. It's like, can you handle death?
- [74:43]
A
Okay. Mad Max emerging from the war bracket. I am Legend versus the last of us. Oh, wait, wait. Sorry. We.
- [74:51]
C
No, no, no. Station 11.
- [74:52]
A
Station 11. Station 11 versus last of us.
- [74:55]
C
This sorry Pestilence. Pestilence gets it. Makes it to the final or whatever this is.
- [74:59]
A
Okay. 11 with a. With a rollicking to the. To the. To the quarters.
- [75:05]
C
They understand that. People underestimated that. Pestilence, man.
- [75:09]
A
Yeah. The road versus the Handmaid's Tale.
- [75:17]
C
I still think the road. I'm gonna go up the road on this one.
- [75:21]
A
Yeah, I like it. And then finally, the Walking Dead versus the Planet of the Apes.
- [75:28]
C
I mean, zombies. I mean zombies on PDs. Absolutely not. Yeah, they're winning. They're on their way to the next row.
- [75:37]
A
Okay, let's hear. Let's. This is it. Final Four. Terminator. Station 11.
- [75:45]
C
Station 11, man.
- [75:47]
A
You think so?
- [75:48]
C
Yeah.
- [75:48]
A
The Terminator doesn't get sick. I'll go with it. I'm running. I'm right.
- [75:52]
C
You think? Okay, hold on, hold on. The Terminator really doesn't get sick. For real?
- [75:56]
A
No. Yeah, he's. He's immune to all viruses because he's just a machine under there, man.
- [76:04]
C
I don't, man.
- [76:05]
A
John Connor will, will struggle, but like the, the liquid metal and the, and the Arnold Schwarzer Terminator will thrive.
- [76:14]
C
You make a compelling argument. Okay, all right. I'm going to, let's, you're right. Let's go with the Terminator.
- [76:19]
A
Okay. And then the road. Planet of the Apes.
- [76:28]
C
I mean, so real. That dude is that bad of a badass, huh? He's, I mean, he is.
- [76:33]
A
Yeah. But here's the thing again. He's, he's fierce and he's extremely dedicated. He probably weighs about 95 pounds max. Maybe that might be overstating it. And I think if I think of an ape breathed on him, he would fall over and die.
- [76:53]
C
This is what I mean. I was like, I mean, you really, you're asking a lot of this father.
- [76:59]
A
I just don't think he can stand against the combined might of the intellectually overpowering apes. That's apes.
- [77:09]
C
Yeah, man.
- [77:10]
A
Okay, here we go.
- [77:12]
C
Oh, man.
- [77:13]
A
In the final.
- [77:14]
C
Terminator, man.
- [77:16]
A
Terminator.
- [77:17]
C
Yeah.
- [77:18]
A
Planet of the Apes.
- [77:19]
C
You know, when the Terminator got past Pestilence, I was like, okay, you know how sometimes, you know how sometimes the championship is in the, is in the conference? Totally. Like, actually actual.
- [77:31]
B
Yes.
- [77:32]
C
Like the Western Conference final is the actual NBA final. Well, that's, that's what that was for the Terminator. So I think the Terminator goes through in a walk, man. The monkeys are not going to hold up against the Terminator at all.
- [77:44]
A
I mean, I, I, I think it's a, I think, I think it's like a five point game going into the fourth quarter. But I, but I lean. I think you're right. Well, because I think the apes, it depends, like if it's a long game, the apes just have the numbers. But, but they won't. They've never faced anything like the Terminator.
- [78:02]
C
Right.
- [78:03]
A
Or the liquid metal Terminator. And I think it would just be shocking to them, honestly. Tyler, do you have anything to add to that?
- [78:09]
B
No, that. That's smart. I think there's going to be a recalibration period for the apes. I think if you gave the apes a while to, to sort of learn the Terminator, to get to, to understand what it is that makes him tick, then I, then I do like their chances, but I'm not sure that they're gonna have that kind of time. You know what I mean?
- [78:28]
A
I think the games are gonna be. I completely agree. And also, like, listen, the apes are, I don't wanna denigrate the apes. They're super smart. They don't have a tremendous amount of technical know how, like computers and stuff, like that's not their thing. And so I think that they would just be Molly whopped, honestly by the Terminator, like in like a 10 point game or something.
- [78:50]
C
So this is. You know what this is? This reminds me, since this is March Madness, this. It's like sometimes when a team used to play against The Jim Boeheim 2, 3 zone for Syracuse and it fucks.
- [78:59]
A
What do we do?
- [79:00]
C
It fucks people up. Yeah. Supposed to defeat this thing and then eventually the thing is like, well, we're more talented than this in a zone. Is kind of dumb if you can shoot a team out of a zone. But sometimes that zone might get you, you know.
- [79:12]
A
Okay, so the Terminator. Terminator emerges in our march. Finally, let's go to our lucid score. Lucid is our scoring criteria where we take a certain topic and we decide. How much legs does it have? How unintentionally funny is it? Is it sinister? Does it have intrigue? Does it have danger? You're scoring from zero to four in each category. The end of the world, Joel. Does it have legs? Is it something that we are going to continue to talk about? One to four,
- [79:45]
C
man. One to four?
- [79:47]
A
Yes.
- [79:49]
C
Yeah, I mean, four.
- [79:50]
A
Yeah, yeah. Completely agree.
- [79:52]
C
Yeah.
- [79:52]
A
I mean, like comedy. Is there anything funny about these topics that we have talked about today?
- [79:58]
B
Yeah.
- [79:59]
C
So am I. Am I doing this on a scale of one to four, too?
- [80:01]
A
Yeah, scale, one to four.
- [80:02]
B
Yeah, the whole thing.
- [80:03]
C
Oh, yeah, four. I mean, look, if you can't laugh,
- [80:06]
A
I. I can see that there's an absurdity to this whole situation.
- [80:10]
C
How did we end up here?
- [80:12]
A
Yes.
- [80:13]
C
You know, it's fun, it's funny in a way, if it wasn't so fucked up.
- [80:18]
A
Sinisterness. How sinister is just everything that's going on.
- [80:24]
C
Oh, man. I mean, a story that has faded from the headlines is one about a global sex trafficking ring led by a financier who may have not been killed in prison.
- [80:36]
A
And maybe the whole point of all of this was to make that fade from the headlines.
- [80:40]
C
Yeah, right. This could all, all of this was a. Like Venezuela was sort of. That Cuba's a part of this. So four.
- [80:47]
A
Okay. Intrigue. Is there intrigue to this story?
- [80:54]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like a two and a half to a three.
- [80:58]
A
Okay, we'll give it a two.
- [80:59]
C
Yeah.
- [81:00]
A
And then danger. How dangerous is it?
- [81:02]
C
Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, man, look, Cameron said it. Niggas get shot every day, B. You know what I'm saying, like people are dying right now. So it's pretty serious. Four. It's a four.
- [81:14]
A
And so that is an 18 on the scale. That is pretty significant. Let's go to our Doom Scroll Tower.
- [81:20]
B
Welcome to Doom Scroll. This is where we kind of take another look at some stories that have been grabbing our attention a little bit lately. Up first, we got a top FEMA official that claims to have teleported to a Waffle House at one point in his life. Greg Phillips, far right conspiracy theorist turned high ranking Official at the U.S. federal Emergency Management Agency.
- [81:44]
A
Oh good.
- [81:45]
C
Oh yeah, great. Oh, amazing.
- [81:47]
B
Claims that he teleported to a Waffle House. This is from CNN. So on a January 2025 podcast appearance, Phillips claimed that his car was lifted up while he was driving and transported 40 miles away into a ditch near a church. In another instance, Phillips said he was teleported 50 miles away to a Waffle House in Rome, Georgia.
- [82:12]
C
Oh, wrong.
- [82:12]
B
We got a quote. I was with my boys one time, which is how a lot of good things start
- [82:21]
C
with my boys.
- [82:22]
B
Some of my best stories start with I was with my boys one time.
- [82:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [82:26]
B
And I was telling them I was going to go to Waffle House and get Waffle House as opposed to going to Waffle House and getting something else. And I ended up at Waffle House, this was in Georgia. And I end up at a Waffle House like 50 miles away from where I was.
- [82:39]
C
Phillips said on the podcast Waffle House in Georgia suspect.
- [82:43]
B
Yeah, apparently his, the people that he was with contacted him. They said, where are you? He said a Waffle House and then specifies Waffle House in Rome, Georgia. He said, that's not possible. You just left here a moment ago. But it was possible, it was real. This is what Greg Phillips is saying. Obviously take all of this with many grains of salt. Phillips has suggested that both COVID 19 and the vaccine for it were designed to kill people. I see.
- [83:22]
A
Well, I'll say this, that I hope that Mr. Phillips can bring that technology to FEMA because I think it would allow for the delivery of supplies to devastated areas with a speed that is necessary in those types of situations. I hope that new Department of Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen will, will find a way to use these technologies to our benefits.
- [83:48]
B
Yeah.
- [83:49]
A
What do you got next, Tyler?
- [83:51]
B
Well, I, I did want to read his final, his, his final little quote here. Teleporting is no fun. He said, really? You know, it's happening, but you can't do anything about it. And so you Just go. You just go with the ride.
- [84:07]
C
So, you know, hurricane season's around the corner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get your shit together, bro. You don't sound like you're ready for it. The.
- [84:15]
B
The Boston Celtics are kind of making a play for the most way to second team in the league a little bit. We know about Joe Missoula, who sincerely believes regular people should be allowed to participate in simulated recreations of the raid that took down Osama. So, you know, this past week, Derek White said on a podcast that he's a non moon landing guy. We probably did, but I don't think we did. I don't know. More interestingly, Jaylen Brown last week said that he memorizes all his teammates astrology and numerology in order to better learn how to communicate with them. And then he started rattling off some Chinese zodiac signs of different players. Derek White, Year of the Dog, Peyton Pritchard and Jason Tatum, Year of the Tiger Vuch, Year of the Horse Missoula, Year of the Dragon. What else? The Celtics were going to a movie during an off day and they went around asking, who is the one player that you don't want to sit next to at the movie? And almost to a player, all of them said Jaylen Brown. Either. Either. Because he would just. He wouldn't stop giving advice during the movie. Which is.
- [85:38]
C
Yeah.
- [85:39]
B
Which seems right. Or that he would just not. He would just have a lot to say about what was happening.
- [85:46]
A
Well, that makes sense. I'll say this about. About Jalen. I. He's communicating with his teammates and how he does it, that's his business. I do think the moon landing happened, and I think if it didn't happen, the Russians would be like, hey, that's fake. I think in the year 1968. 9. I forget. They would have been like, hey, that's. They Fake. That's a fake.
- [86:10]
B
It doesn't look. It doesn't look anything like that.
- [86:13]
A
Call it out in the moment.
- [86:14]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. That's. I think Jalen Brown, I bet he's really into AI. He seems like somebody that is really into AI and is going to get into AI. You know, just. I don't know what that teacher that told him in high school that he was probably going to be in jail, but every day he wakes up thinking of how he's going to prove that person wrong by showing you how smart he is.
- [86:36]
B
Yes.
- [86:37]
C
So whoever you are, teacher, you inspired you. I mean, you really. You've never inspired anyone as much as you did Jaylen Brown Joel, thank you
- [86:45]
A
so much for joining us.
- [86:47]
C
Oh, anytime, man, anytime. Maybe next time it'll be in person.
- [86:59]
A
In TikTok I clips the podcast Noticia serapidas y micro prendisaje die dea nueva combierte el trafico en tiempo decresimiento descarga TikTok Aura o Canada.
- [87:12]
B
A vast, idyllic land filled with beavers, loons, lumberjacks and polite, friendly folks. We have those things for sure, but there's a darker side to the Great White north, full of mystery crime, the paranormal and dark history.
- [87:25]
C
Join me, Mike Brown and co host
- [87:27]
B
Matthew Stockton every Monday for the Dark Poutine podcast as we tell dark stories
- [87:32]
C
from north of the 49th parallel, with the odd away game covering more international cases.
- [87:37]
B
You can listen to Dark Poutine for
- [87:38]
A
free wherever you find your favorite podcasts.