← Unfiltered Soccer with Landon Donovan and Tim Howard
Unfiltered Soccer with Landon Donovan and Tim Howard
Promotion and Relegation with Adam Crafton
01:11:34
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- [00:00]
Landon Donovan
These teams are willing to spend really quickly, and then they just, yo, yo. Not good enough for the Premier League. They're too good for the championship, and they get stuck in this kind of middle ground.
- [00:11]
Tim Howard
Unfiltered soccer with Landon and Tim, presented by Volkswagen. Volkswagen has long been a supporter of soccer in America and has proudly been a partner of US Soccer for the past five years.
- [00:21]
Landon Donovan
LD we are back. I can't understate her, overstate how excited I am for this moment of the week. Every time I get to see your face, it's amazing. What. What have you been up to this week?
- [00:34]
Tim Howard
Says nobody ever golfing golf so much. I know I've got this league play match today. So you play. Don't laugh, dude. So you play. It's the only competition I have in my life anymore. You play. You play individually against someone, then you have a teammate, and you as your teammate, play against this other team. So we're playing San Diego Country Club today. This is a big match here at our home course.
- [01:00]
Landon Donovan
So you know what? That's amazing. I'm not even going to ask how you play, because all my friends say they play great. It's not. It doesn't matter. All I'm going to say is I think we should have an episode on how great your life is. I think we should just walk through now.
- [01:13]
Tim Howard
You were talking. You were just talking about how cold it is. I said to my wife this morning, I'm like, it's actually warm today. I think it was 58 degrees when I walked outside.
- [01:21]
Landon Donovan
I hate. Oh, my God. It's. It's the coldest. It's the coldest it's ever been in New York. It's just horrific.
- [01:26]
Tim Howard
Whatever. You don't have to live there, bud. You choose. All right, guys, reminder, as always, follow us Social media Unfiltered soccer. Make sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube. Follow on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. If you like what we're doing or if you don't, just leave a comment. We like it. We like reading the bad ones. Timmy loves the banter. You can also email us@feedbackiltered soccer.com what do we got today, Tim?
- [01:51]
Landon Donovan
Wow. I. I couldn't be more excited for today. And here's why so many of our listeners are desperate to talk about and want to have knowledge and debates about promotional relegation. We talked about doing this episode, but ld you and I wanted to do it with someone who was at the top of their game with knowledge of promotional relegation. And I couldn't be more Excited about our guest today, Adam Crafton, the genius writer for the Athletic, a friend of ours, a friend of the show, just so incredibly excited about what this means to our, to our listeners and to the subject at hand. So, Adam, welcome.
- [02:32]
Tim Howard
Welcome, Adam.
- [02:33]
Adam Crafton
Thank you. You wanted someone at the top of the game and you got me instead.
- [02:36]
Landon Donovan
So good.
- [02:39]
Tim Howard
Take what we can get around.
- [02:40]
Landon Donovan
I love it. I love it. Adam, the interesting thing, we're going to jump in, you know, the interesting thing about promotion, relegation, and I'll talk from my standpoint is I'm again, wholly, I'm against promotion, relegation. And we'll get into reasons in America, in America. And it's not because I'm an MLS owner, I was against it when I was a USL owner, but just based on the principle of it. And I think what I would say about this conversation is I've had two very distinct, specific conversations with high level people in big positions in football. And I've come away, I've come away from the argument, even though I was against it, I've come away from the argument more inclined to accept promotion, relegation. That doesn't mean I'm still, I'm still against it, but I've come away from these amazing conversations feeling like, okay, I see the other side of it. So I'm willing to be convinced and I'm happy to talk about that. But ultimately, to start the show, I'm against it.
- [03:47]
Tim Howard
And Adam, can you just, just to start, can just explain for, you know, most people understand what promotion, relegation is, but just as a general statement, what it is in England, Europe, the rest of the world and how it works.
- [04:00]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, well, I suppose the major difference is the rest of the world kind of has this idea of a pyramid, right? This idea of teams that have always existed, that have been around for decades, centuries, and this idea that there is a top division where you may have, There may be 12, 16, 18, 20 teams, but you don't have a fixed place in that division. Certainly if we just take the example of England, you have 20 clubs in the top division, then there's 24 in the second tier, 24 in the third tier, 24 in the fourth tier. That's just the professional game. And the idea is it's fluid. So three teams will go down from the Premier League, three teams will come up from the championship. And I suppose the advantage of it is this concept of being able to dream, of being able to take a place in the top flight, but also this idea of sporting jeopardy so that bad performances have consequences and good performances are rewarded. But also from a spectator sport perspective. It doesn't just mean you're looking at the top of the table as to who's going to win the championship or who's going to win the playoffs, but you're also. Or who's going to qualify for European competition. But you also have this other layer of television jeopardy, which is who's going to stay in the division. And, you know, without going, we'll go probably even deeper into this. But with the Premier League, that's become even greater jeopardy because of the cost of relegation and the. And the jeopardy of the trap door, which there is a kind of perverse jeopardy to in many ways. Right. Because often it leads to fire sales and redundancies and fears over the future of the club. I mean, Tim. Tim will know better probably than. Well, Landon as well. You were Everton as well. So you know how for Everton, over the past few years there has just been this real kind of existential fear of what might happen with relegation. The reality, of course, is that there is a secret rule in English football which means Everton can never be relegated. However badly they play, they never actually go down. But that's kind of the premise of it, this idea. You can go up, you can go down. And it means that the makeup of the Premier League today compared to 10, 15 years ago is very, very different. And it means we have some incredible stories like Brentford and Bournemouth and Brighton and Ipswich at the moment. But then there's also teams like Nottingham Forest, who in the 1980s were winning European Cups, but it's only been, you know, the last couple of years that they've managed to get themselves back in. Into the Premier League.
- [06:46]
Landon Donovan
And Leeds. And Leeds is another example. Right, right.
- [06:50]
Tim Howard
And yeah, so, like there's. We're going to get into the cons as well, but that is certainly one of the pros of promotional. Right. Nottingham Forest or an Ipswich or teams like this that at one time were in the Premier League and then fell out. But now they have the. There's always the opportunity. I like that you said dream like you can dream. Right. And Americans love to dream. So we understand that. And there's. I think the differences are just to start is when Major League Soccer was started, it was very. I would say almost likely that teams or the league was going to fail and just go up in flames like previous iterations of professional soccer in America had, had done. The NASL, famously, amongst many others. And so the league, I think, to protect itself, said we absolutely have to just survive to start. And so the idea of an owner losing 10 or $15 million a year and then getting relegated to at that time, what was called the A league is now called USL was a non starter. Like that would just never happen. And in England and other parts of the world, these clubs have been around for centuries in some cases or a century plus. So they didn't, they started with nothing basically and they could just work their way through the system up and down. And it's, you know, there are, there are vast differences that we'll get into. But Tim, I'm curious why actually you're against it.
- [08:18]
Landon Donovan
Well, let me, let me ask Adam real quick. There's a financial aspect, right? So getting into the Premier League, there's a huge windfall because of the television money, right? And then once you're in the Premier League, let's go a step further, a year later, once you're in the Premier League as I knew it when I was playing there, for every place you climb in the Premier League to finish the season, whether you finish 14th or 13th or 11th, there's like a half a million dollar payment per place or something. Something to that degree, right? So teams are, teams are constantly playing. They're not like resting on the laurels, just saying like we're in 10th place, no, we want to get ninth, we want to get an eighth. Because that adds a million or a couple million more into our, into the club. But then the other side is when you do fail, right, you get a parachute payment is what they call a parachute payment. Correct. And so when you go down, you don't completely freefall. If you spend the money unwisely, you free fall, but it at least gives you this financial cushion over a certain number of years, which you can speak to, that allows you to try and maintain either your championship status or push on to get back in the Premier League. Would that be accurate in terms of some of those numbers?
- [09:30]
Adam Crafton
That's absolutely right. So when you're in the Premier League, there's a guaranteed revenue that you get through the television money. That is, I think the domestic money is split equally and then the international TV rights. One of the things that the bigger clubs or the clubs that consider themselves bigger managed to negotiate was a larger portion of that international TV rights going in their direction. So that's kind of what we kind of describe as the big six clubs, a couple of which are kind of currently about 14th and 15th in the table, right? Clubs like Man United and Tottenham. But then there is a difference, as you say, based on performance related prize money. So where you finish in the table, then if you are relegated, you still get that automatic TV money for that season. You know that money still goes to you. But because the difference between the TV money is so big between the Premier League and the Championship, you're still being relegated, often with a wage, with a wage bill, with a salary, salary bill that is so disproportionate to what you're going to receive TV revenue wise in the Championship that they were fearing that clubs would just go out of business, right? And we saw maybe 15, 20 years ago, clubs like Portsmouth and Leeds come incredibly close, incredibly close to get to going out of business when they were relegated. So one of the things that were brought in was these parachute payments and they, they last three years. I can't remember the exact figures, but it's a sliding scale. So the first year you get a big, a big sum. Second year slightly less, third year slightly less. And the idea is to cushion that landing. And it's quite, it's quite a vivid word, right? It's like you're literally jumping out of the plane, right? And this parachute is sure, is holding you up. Now this has been successful in protecting those clubs that do go down. What you do tend to see is like some clubs will spend that parachute money very, very quickly to try and come straight back up. And, and I think it is becoming an issue actually in terms of the competitive balance of the Championship itself. Because what you tend to see is clubs that go down, even if they've been pretty poor in the Premier League, are still so much better than the rest of the champions.
- [11:57]
Landon Donovan
As an example, the teams you're talking about are like a Burnley, a Norwich. These teams are, are willing to spend very good. There's another one on top of my head that I can't remember. They spend really quickly and then they just, yo, yo, they're not good enough for the Premier League, they're too good for the championship and they just, they spend competitive and, and they get stuck in this kind of middle ground. Burnley sticks out for me because I remember speaking to Vincent company, right, and this is, this is, gets into some of my, my cons. You know, we talked to Vincent Co. And he was so candid with us, JJ. You know, JJ Watt is American NFL player who's now a commentator. He, he, he talked openly with us as well. Like they, they got to, I mean here's, here's another wrinkle. They got to the Premier League off the back of tons of lone players, young stars, loans from other, from other Clubs, right? Those players after a year loan then go back. So Burnley has to say, okay, this is the profile of player that we want. Now that we're in the Premier League everybody's going to ask us top dollar. We cannot afford to go blue, buy the players who were on loan, right? Because being on loan is cheap. Even if you pay a loan fee, cheaper than, than buying these players. So they would tell us in their scouting to go into the Premier League, they're going to like the top player, can't afford him. Second in that position, can't afford. We're. They were going to like third tier players in that position to come up and they just. And Vincent Co. Has a certain style of play and with the players that he had, there wasn't enough quality, right. And so are so many perils to this that we're seeing with, with some of those yo yo teams. You know, one of the other thing about finances is the stadium regulations. So I don't think people quite understand the stadium regulations. And I'm thinking Adam, specifically about Luton Town and Kenilworth Road, right? So they come up to the Premier League, they have a wonderful season in the championship, they get promoted and part of the payment that they get from the Premier League for being promoted, they have to spend on players, right? But they also have to spend on their stadium becoming up to a certain Premier League standard and code, right? That costs money. And we saw they had to push one or two of their home games because the construction wasn't done in time. Is that, is that accurate? Isn't it?
- [14:10]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, that's right. And there's, there's certain requirements that you need in the Premier League and it's largely to do with the global broadcast requirements. So it's, you know, because so much of the international TV revenue is contributing to Premier League clubs and funds transfers and all the product. So a lot of it is just about actually giving the broadcasters everything they need to be able to show the games. I don't have that much of an issue with that side of it in terms of, you know, if a club such as Luton is getting to the Premier League, I think I'd almost. Rather than be spending it on enhancing the infrastructure of the club, getting the training ground right, getting the stadium into a better place that enables them then to actually be more successful longer term rather than spending it on, I don't know, another £8 million left back that probably won't do that much. So I don't have that much of an issue with that. I think just to go back to the point you were mentioning around the yo yo clubs, there's a real issue in the championship at the moment for those clubs who, who received the parachute payments but didn't come up. So a club like Stoke, who we saw in the Premier League for quite a long time, then got relegated or a Middlesbrough went down, but now they're kind of in this. Or Birmingham, you know, now in League one, they're kind of stuck because they're not able to organically drive the kind of revenue they need to be able to hit the top of the championship. And then you have these three clubs coming down every season who are disproportionately financially boosted. So yes, you do get these freak instances of teams that just hit runs of forms on Ipswich, back to back promotions or Luton. But it's really tough, I think, for those clubs that are kind of just living at the moment between, I don't know, 8th and 20th in the championship. Swansea, another example, right. You know, you saw the owners of D.C. united, Levine Kind of just give up on Swansea by the end. And there is this ongoing debate within English football around how the Premier League should redistribute to the FL to try and I suppose just even it out a little bit more to. Because I think even the Premier League is starting to see an impact of this because of what you describe as these yo yo clubs that get to the Premier League and actually just can't compete anymore. And that's. That's a problem, right? If teams are being promoted, spending 100 million but still really way off being able to properly compete, that creates an issue actually for the Premier League as well as the fl.
- [16:58]
Tim Howard
So a question I have for you, and I will probably never have the answer to this because they'll never answer honestly. Do you think the owners in England writ large, like promotion, relegation and I. Obviously it depends on the spot you're in. But if you said we're going to start over and everybody's got a, you know, the, the 92 teams in the, in the EF, in the whatever in English football, the top tour tier, top four tiers, you're going to start over and you're going to make your way to the top or you're going to make your way to the bottom, would they want promotion, relegation or would they say this is not a system that works for us?
- [17:36]
Adam Crafton
It's such an interesting question because then you get into the realm of actually who are the owners? What do the owners want? Why are the owners there? And there's so many different ownership models amongst 92 clubs, right. There will be owners in an owner of a League one, League two club who is kind of just the local businessman in his town who is actually really happy owning a club in League one, League two, being that community asset who maybe thinks, you know, we'll have the old good year in a cup or something like that, but we're not going to get to the Premier League. But they probably still quite like the idea of having that far away distant dream of maybe we could, right? Who knows, maybe we could. Then you have the other extreme which is I suppose the. If we just take the block of American owners in the Premier League.
- [18:29]
Tim Howard
I knew that was coming. That's the American.
- [18:31]
Adam Crafton
Sorry. But you know, because that's the interesting block because it's the growing block and you know now with the Everton, the new, the freakin guys in at Everton, you know, we're getting pretty close to having kind of the. For any rule to pass in the Premier League it's 14 or more clubs need to approve it. Now would some of these owners like the Premier League to be a closed shot? Of course they would because it protects their investment, it increases the value of their asset. You would then start to get Premier League clubs I think getting towards the valuations of some of the NBA teams and NFL teams. Right. Because the Premier League basically is the Super League. Right. Of I think, I think between us we can probably say that. I know some people would argue La Liga etc. But in terms of just viewing figures and global reach, the Premier League is kind of outstripping everything at the moment probably other than the Champions League. So some of them, yes, I think would like it. But I think what's also true is the Super League had such a scarring effect on particularly the, the owners of, you know, Manchester United, Liverpool, well Chelsea weren't there at the time but they know about it, Tottenham, Arsenal, that I don't think they would dare at the moment even try and go there. So I don't think it's a realistic conversation and I also don't think it's realistic because something that's going on in the UK at the moment is this football governance bill that's going through Parliament. So I think you would actually see incredible political opposition. I think it would simply be blocked by Parliament. And I know this is kind of something that probably seems quite alien to Americans, like the idea that the government's gonna get involved in whether the league has promotion or relegation or whatever. And yes they are because it's a hugely popular issue. And there's probably, you know, you saw it when the Super League came along. The prime minister at the time, Boris Johnson, basically came along and said, I'm going to drop a legislative, I can't even say it. Legislative bomb to stop this from happening. And that was one of the reasons why it didn't progress. So as a result of that, yes, there are plenty of owners, I suspect, who would like this to change, but I don't see it as being realistic as a policy change anytime soon.
- [21:04]
Tim Howard
You know, Adam, to that point, it's interesting. So, full disclosure, I have very, very, very, very small ownership stake in Lincoln City and Link one, and I have a very good friend, Harvey Chabara, who, with Clive Nates there, has invested a lot of money in the club and they've spoken a lot about this reform that may be coming. And for people who don't understand, there are a lot of teams in the Championship League one, League two, who as this, you know, I call it the Wrexham effect a little bit. Everybody thinks they can buy a club and be Ipswich and go up twice in a row and be in the Premier League. And Wrexham now is doing it. And the reality is, for every Wrexham or ipswich, there are 10, 12, 15 others who get American owners or foreign owners or spend way more than they can. And like you said with Pompey, Portsmouth and yeah, and others are on the verge of going out of business. And so as a whole, English soccer, football has said, okay, we need to help subsidize some of these teams so that they can't go out of business. But if I'm the Premier League clubs now, I'm looking at it and say, okay, these guys are coming in and, and I know very intimately how teams in League one and League two are spending now and how crazy it's gotten. I mean, they're spending millions and millions of pounds on transfers for players in League one, which has never happened in the history of the league. And if I'm the Premier League clubs, I'm kind of looking at this and saying, wait, I'm subsidizing this so they can just go spend carelessly. Right. So I understand the idea of wanting to protect English football, but at some point you have to put the onus too on the owners and say, you can't just keep spending like a drunken sailor and we're not going to subsidize that. Right.
- [22:48]
Landon Donovan
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Adam Crafton
So could I. Could I ask you, Landon, as an owner, however small that stake may be, how would you feel if the promotion Relegation was all of a sudden not. Not a possibility.
- [23:01]
Tim Howard
Yeah, it's a. It's a good question. I, as a fan, love it. Right. Because I grew up in America watching American sports. And the biggest to me, the. The most boring sport in the middle of the summer is baseball. And it's not because I think it's boring. I love baseball. I love watching baseball. It's that halfway through the season, half the teams have nothing to play for.0. Nothing to play for. And so I hate that. The best baseball season ever in the history of my Life was in 2020, during COVID when they played 60 games, because every game basically counted for three games. If you want a game, it counted for three in a normal season. And it was so exciting and so riveting and I was glued to the television. But there's way too many games. It'll never change because there's so much revenue and baseball is such a tradition in history that they'll never change the amount of games because stats matter so much. But I love the idea because every game matters. Every single game matters. Now, I'm looking at it as a fan and not a business owner, and I'm not outlaying millions and millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. Right. So if I was. And there's context and there's nuance here, like, I can't be mad at MLS owners for not wanting promotion, relegation. I get it. I understand it. But as a fan, as a player, one thing we haven't talked about yet is the opportunity for players. And I didn't think about that until I was coaching in San Diego. And a lot of the players, English players, would say it gave us an opportunity to play at the next level, because a club would never. A club in the championship would never sign me as a League one player. But if we got promoted, all of a sudden I'm in the Championship, and if I play well and do it now, I'm a championship player, and that changes my life. And if you go from championship to Premier League, that completely changes your life, financially and otherwise.
- [24:58]
Adam Crafton
I mean, that's. There's players at the moment, Ipswich, that were there in League One. Right, right, right.
- [25:03]
Landon Donovan
A lot of players.
- [25:04]
Adam Crafton
Bournemouth, you know, when they went up with Eddie Howe, it was like two to the Premier League, some of these players. So, yeah, I'd never considered it, really. Yeah. From a player's perspective, in terms of it possibly being their only way to get there as well.
- [25:16]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, it's a great. I mean, it's a great, great point because it's life changing for, you know, for you to make that point, Landon, is, is you take it a step further to the glory lane, which is the Premier League. Right. There are. I've, we you and I've played with some of these players. There are championship players that get into the Premier League and they run their socks off and they can complete a couple passes and then all of a sudden they just figure out a way to stay in the league and all of a sudden they're a Premier League player and their next contract now changes their life, literally changes their life. And they wouldn't, as you said, outside of getting promoted, not a single Premier League team would have ever thought to sign them. Right. And so there's, there's, we talk about dreams. There's an aspect of that as well.
- [25:58]
Tim Howard
Yeah. So let's take a quick break. I want, when we get back, let's, let's see, let's dive into how this would look in America potentially, because that's what we're really talking about. And now people have some context of what the Premier League looks like, how promotion, relegation works. But let's see how this would work in America potentially. And we have lots of thoughts on that. We'll come back with Adam, me and Tim right after this promotion and relegation talk here on Unfiltered Soccer with Landon and Tim. Presented by Volkswagen.
- [26:29]
Landon Donovan
Foreign. The Unfiltered Soccer podcast is brought to you by Volkswagen, the presenting partner of U s soccer.
- [26:38]
Tim Howard
Since 2019, Volkswagen has been on a mission to drive the future of the sport we all love. And VW is committed to making it more diverse, inclusive and accessible for everyone.
- [26:48]
Landon Donovan
They're not just talking about it, they're out there doing it. VW's partnerships, programs and soccer clinics are unlocking opportunities for the next generation of players and fans.
- [26:56]
Tim Howard
As a longtime friend of Volkswagen, I've seen firsthand how VW are connecting with fans in driving the sport forward. From working with them on clinics to being part of their incredible campaigns, it's clear U.S. soccer is truly powered by the people.
- [27:09]
Landon Donovan
Thank you to VW for being our presenting partner. Learn more about how VW are supporting U.S. soccer@vw.com There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed that just isn't your team winning the championship, the weather being good on game day, your friends remembering who has the tickets. Some days you're just a goal scoring machine.
- [27:28]
Tim Howard
Yeah. And some days the ball just passes you by. Right here on Unfiltered Soccer, we know that no matter how Much you love the beautiful game. Nothing on the field is guaranteed. Thankfully, AT&T is introducing a brand new guarantee. The AT&T guarantee.
- [27:42]
Landon Donovan
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- [27:49]
Tim Howard
Whether you're in the stands, watching with friends or just cheering from home, you can count on the AT and T guarantee.
- [27:55]
Landon Donovan
Learn more@att.com guarantee terms and conditions apply.
- [28:00]
Tim Howard
At&T connecting changes everything.
- [28:04]
D
We're so done with New Year, new you. This year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you, someone else will too be more you this year and find them on Bumble.
- [28:30]
Landon Donovan
Right, this is the other side of this conversation, LD and Adam, and that is what all of our listeners oftentimes talk about is how do we have, how do we create promotion relegation in America? Again? So many of the things we outlined about England and how they use promotion relegation throughout their tier, I think is the basis of this conversation. Look, I don't believe that it could work in the US currently because of what we talked about, the pyramid tier system, right. Everything is governed by a governing body in the faa, the efl, the Premier League, they all kind of fall under the same umbrella in America. That isn't the case. Right. When you, when you look at, when you look at how this system works, US Soccer is over here, MLS is over here and USL is somewhere over here, Right?
- [29:30]
Tim Howard
Yeah, but Tim, U.S. soccer. U.S. soccer is the governing body. Like they sit on top and they have to sanction the leagues.
- [29:36]
Landon Donovan
Yes, they, they do. But there's such a. Correct. But there's such a divide in there. We don't have a tier system. Right. We have independent leagues.
- [29:45]
Tim Howard
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
- [29:45]
Landon Donovan
Okay. And so, and so if you ask the usl, their company line would be, we're not a second division. They're seen as a second division. But they, they would clearly state, we are not a second division. We are a thriving first division league within America. That's how they, that's how they describe it. And so when I think about the cons, what jumps off the page to me is the finances. And the finances, Adam, as you mentioned, basically start with a television deal, an astronomical global television rights, which is what keeps the Premier League afloat and thriving. So first of all, you have to get a lucrative television deal that everyone can buy into, right? And so that's a starting point. The other part of it for me is if. If Landon and I and you, Adam, we're going to say we are going to. We have enough money, we want to go buy a team, right? And we buy into to the MLS and we're in for half a billion, three quarters of a billion dollars with our stadium and all the things, right? We have an opportunity then after that investment, 12 months later, to no longer be playing in the Premier League. Excuse me, in the mls, the top league. I think we'd have a powwow and we'd all say to each other, well, I'm not signing up for that. I'm not spending nearly a billion dollars to then in 12 months have my asset be depreciated so much that we have to have a fire sale, right? There would have to be the system in place where there's. There's a tiered system, there's parachute payments, like nobody would sign up for that. The other part, as I continue to think about this, is you. You land and talk about Lincoln City, right? I can talk about playing against Macclesfield Town or going to Burton Albion, right? And playing in the FA Cup. These small teams, right, Adam, you mentioned they're run by local businessmen. Not billionaires, not foreign dignitaries, local businessmen, right? There's a heart and a soul to people in Lincoln City or New York City or wherever. America has never hear what I'm saying. America has never adequately supported a second division. The NFL, they've tried to create. Everybody loves football. NFL's king. So they've tried to create the XFL in the spring because there's no football. They've created a USFL in the spring because no, football doesn't get supported. The NBA fans would never support a G League team. They wouldn't. The G League is a second division. Major League Baseball fans, if they got. If they got relegated to triple A, they wouldn't Triple A baseball is a dog and pony show. It's fireworks and let the kids run the bases. A second division in America, in any sport has never been supported. So are we. So are we then to assume that a first division club, an MLS club, let's say the first division gets relegated. Are we to say Americans don't support second division teams? Simply put. And so my argument to end all of this is when I look at the mls, of all the teams and Landon, you know this, I think there's probably maybe four teams. Four that could sustain a relegation because the teams are supported as an institution. The LA Galaxy, Seattle Sounders and a possibly think in Portland, like, if those teams went down, the crazies in Seattle would still wear their green, they'd still march to the game, they'd still meet at the pubs because it's an institution. The LA Galaxy wouldn't allow their team to falter because it's more than a soccer team. It's an institution within the city. But for so many of the other teams, if they go down, I don't believe the infrastructural support from the fans are there. I think they love their team being in the mls, but I don't think they'll support it there. Rant over.
- [33:50]
Tim Howard
Go ahead, Adam. That's not yours.
- [33:53]
Adam Crafton
No, I think the points you make are valid. I think if I was looking at soccer in the United States and I was looking at the mls, there's kind of two ways you look at it. One is you have to adapt to what the audience here is about. And what the audience here is about, as Tim says, is we don't support second division teams. And my really simple sociological take on that is just Americans love watching the best. They want to watch the best. They don't watch the best.
- [34:25]
Tim Howard
But you know what, Adam, let me jump in real quick. It's in England, throughout the years, these teams, those teams matter in their city, regardless of what division they're in.
- [34:40]
Landon Donovan
Yeah.
- [34:41]
Tim Howard
And. And it doesn't fluctuate as much based on that. Like, if, knock on wood, Lincoln City went down to League two, they'd still probably have the same amount of fans. Right. And in America, we just. We don't understand the concept of not being in the top league. Right. So continue. Sorry. We just. It just. That's a foreign concept to us.
- [34:59]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. And I think it's why, you know, the Premier League and Champions League is really popular here a bit in the way, you know that you guys call baseball the World Series. Right. Because you expect the sport you watch to be the best. Right. So that's why. That's why people are watching Champions League. Now, the flip way that soccer could look at it and is set is to basically still say, you guys might push back on this a little bit. But they could say we're still a challenger sport to NFL, to college football, to baseball, to basketball. We can argue about that when we look at participation figures, and I suspect. But they could say, well, actually, because we're challenging, maybe we actually do do things differently to the way that American sport tends to see itself and say, we do bring in this jeopardy that you don't get in other sports in the US and say, we're going to do this differently and see whether the audience comes with us on it. Now, whether there is the evidence there that people would go with that is another story. But that's, that's what they could do. But, but I really do think mls, the easiest thing to say ever, has to do something because, you know, as an example, I was in, I was actually in Vegas last week and I was talking to one of the sports bucks in Vegas and I said to them, out of the soccer leagues, where does MLS rank in terms of the most betted on soccer leagues? Not all sports leagues, just soccer leagues. It's the ninth most bet on soccer league. Soccer league, soccer league. Right. So that's a domestic market. Right. I know Vegas doesn't obviously have an MLS team, but you're talking about within the United States, the ninth most betted on soccer league. That, to me is a problem. Yeah, right. Because people bet on what they're watching.
- [36:55]
Tim Howard
Yeah, that's right.
- [36:56]
Adam Crafton
On tv. And that tells me, you know, I know we don't get the figures around what, you know, what people are watching on Apple at the moment, but it tells me not enough people are watching. You know, Liga MX was second. Right. So we know X is very popular within the United States, but that's an issue because that tells you that people aren't tuning in.
- [37:17]
Landon Donovan
Yeah. The interesting point you make there is the risk versus reward is bringing in the drama of promotion relegation, which is a foreign concept, but is exciting. I don't think anybody watches a promotion relegation game at the end of the season and isn't excited. Right. And that's what you're betting on. You're bringing it into a, into a foreign market that doesn't understand it. But it's still good watching. If you can educate enough of the viewers. The, the, the downside to that is getting the investors to buy into the loss. Right. Because they've already.
- [37:50]
Adam Crafton
And why would they. Right.
- [37:51]
Tim Howard
They're not. It's, it ain't happening. It's not. I mean, it's like, this is like.
- [37:55]
Adam Crafton
The great, you know, sorry to everyone listening, not happening. But.
- [37:59]
Tim Howard
No, so, no, but look, Adam, look, the, the question is, will the league at some point find a creative way to, to tackle this to make the games more exciting at the end of the year? Right. Or, or throughout the year? So that's, I mean, when we turn on the Premier League here in America, and it's April 17th and Ipswich are playing Everton. People are like, whoa, there's a lot at stake here, right? And they're 15th and 18th in the table. And people are like, oh my God, I can feel it in the state. And by the way, the performance, performance of the players and the crowd, it all matches that. And you're. And that's what's riveting about the Premier League versus watching the Pittsburgh Pirates play the Cincinnati Reds in August, right? And so is there a creative way? I know in Mexico, years ago, and I think it's, I think they put a kibosh on this, but they used to do it, I think over a three year period. So you would have an average league position over three years and if you were at the bottom after those three years, you would get relegated. So it gave you a little cushion. If you had one bad season, it didn't destroy you. The other idea that people have talked about, I'm curious what you guys think about this is could you, if MLS is now in 29, 30 top American cities, could you add the Phoenixes, the Vegas's, the Memphis's, San Antonio's, etc of the world and make an MLS 2 and have it within your system, just within MLS. So you have 40 teams now and 20 on the top and 20 are on the bottom. And do you create it within years? Will USL do it at some point? Right. And just say, you know, forget about MLS and how that works, we're just going to do it on our own. Do you think those. Or is there a create, I guess is there a creative solution? Because the way it is now, it's not going to happen, right? But is there a creative solution to bring it into our sport here?
- [39:54]
Landon Donovan
Well, let me tell you, it's all about valuations, right? And so, and so as much as MLS owners don't want to, don't want to lose the money that they've invested, I talked about us having this, this fake ownership group and we wouldn't want to lose that, right? And so in the usl, what you pay for, for a USL championship club, which is the top league, you're, you're paying more than you would for a League one team in usl, right? But I think the starting point for me would be for USL to adopt promotion, relegation because they do have a tiered system, right? They have championship League one, League two, it's already in place. So for them to adopt it, to pitch it to a, to, to a television streaming service or, or what have you and create that drama in and of itself. Right. And then have some sort of proof in that. Right. So you can go from, and create the parachute payments based off of television, but you're going to have to make a sacrifice somewhere but allow a championship club, USL championship club, say, look, if you go down to League one, right, you're not having to make changes to your stadium, you're not having to, you can still play in your 8,000 seat stadium that you, that you built, no problem. If you come up to, you know, the championship, I think that's the starting point for promotion, relegation in America. I just don't see an avenue where the powers that be, MLS owners, USL owners, and both leagues come together and say, all right, well we'll create this system. It's very similar to what you said, Adam, about the Premier League and the rest of the pyramid. I don't think you're going to get a lot of people to agree on, on seeing it the same way. I just don't.
- [41:38]
Adam Crafton
I totally agree with you on that. And also, you know, rationally, if you're looking at it purely from the business case, why would you look at what's happening in the Premier League and the championship and say, I want to take that risk with my business. Yeah, right. Yeah. Why would I want to take the risk of having an end of year situation where I may have to let people go? Because revenue streams are unpredictable, you know, where my valuation may change because we've, you know, I don't know, our star striker got injured and therefore we've not played well for 10 games. Right. It's the beauty of European football is the irrationality. Right. And that's maybe the motivation. The bit I always find strange is, you know, coming from the UK into, into America is on in so many industries. Americans kind of shun the idea of protectionism and regulation. And then when it comes to sport, it's like this kind of protection is cartel, to be honest. Right. Looking after a very, very small amount of very, very wealthy people and I don't know, maybe you could actually argue that's exactly what, what goes on in other industries. But, but it's interesting. It's like in so many other space, it's like, trust the market, trust the market, it'll be fine. Whereas here it's like, no, don't trust the market. We have to make sure we are completely protected and everything's relatively predictable. Of course, you then have wildcard factors like drafts that make things more egalitarian and things like that. I just wonder whether there's Other things that MLS could change first in terms of making itself more attractive, more appealing, more jeopardy without promotion and relegation, whether it is increasing spending limits, whether it is creating greater visibility outside of paywalls. I think there's a lot of things that MLS can do and also US Soccer can do as well. The thing that shocks me most is when I look at soccer all around the world, it is so accessible for people to pay to play. So regardless of background ethnicity, you know, it is the greatest sporting vehicle of social mobility. Right. You look at where a Messi or Ronaldo came from, Luis Suarez to where they went and in the United States, you know, it is incredibly expensive.
- [44:19]
Landon Donovan
Yes.
- [44:19]
Adam Crafton
And the stories I hear of, like what people have to pay for their kids to be able to, to play soccer.
- [44:26]
Tim Howard
You're going to get people real mad now. Well, we might have to bring you on. We're going to get into that with you.
- [44:32]
Adam Crafton
Right. But I think it's a really important debate for US Soccer to have because although again, it may be rational, it may be logical, it is not what happens elsewhere in the world. Right, Right. And it's a big, it's a big differentiator.
- [44:50]
Tim Howard
Yeah. Could Tim, just thinking about this, Andrew, our producer, put in our chat here. Could. Would MLS argue that the way they keep the, the season interesting and the way sport. And I actually never thought about this. Sports in our country are interesting is because you have a playoff system, right. Which you don't have asthma. You do in, in some format in other places in the world, but not, not to crown a champion the way we do in America with our playoffs. And so even if, you know, last year the San Jose Earthquakes were way out of the playoffs, are playing LA LA Galaxy at the end. There is meaning in the game for the Galaxy still. So because of the playoff push and could that fit in still with promotion, relegation, or would that have to go away? I'm just thinking about it as we're, as we're talking about it.
- [45:40]
Landon Donovan
Look, I mean, I think ultimately you could have. The MLS would argue and rightfully so American sports would argue their drama is in playoffs. Right. Their drama is in the last place team to get into the playoffs. So let's call it the number eight seed beats the number one seed. That's the drama. And, and, and, and they would, they'd have a rightful argument there. Right. Because we, we love, we watch playoffs. That's when things heat up here. You know, could there be a, could there be a system where you have a playoffs where with eight, you know, the top eight teams make it and then the last place or the last two place teams go down. I suppose, I mean, that's major drama. I mean, I suppose you could ultimately, you have to get. They'd have to get creative. And I go back to. I don't believe in the promotion, relegation conversation that MLS is budget at all.
- [46:41]
Tim Howard
No. Zero chance.
- [46:42]
Landon Donovan
Zero chance. I do believe as I, and I'm repeating myself, if the usl, who already has a tiered model, they already start like this. Right. Then I think if they were to be able to do it and they were to be. It's all about dollars and cents. If they were to be able to gain traction and show real oomph in their television rights and say, look, we, we've put this on tv. We are. Our figures have shot way up from, from the last five seasons when we were just the USL and we had a playoff system and not many people watched. If you start to have some proof, then I think you then get MLS to look at it and go, huh, okay, there is an appetite for this. There already is a litmus test. But until then, I'm not sure that MLS budgets at all. At all.
- [47:33]
Tim Howard
Well, to Adam's point though, this is America. Right. Like somebody could start a league. And people have tried NISA and bringing back nasl. You can start your own league.
- [47:44]
Landon Donovan
Yep.
- [47:44]
Tim Howard
And, and I mean, you got to build it from scratch. And credit to MLS and Don Garber who built it from nothing and made it what it is today. Right. So you, you do have that opportunity if you want to go there. And obviously you need people with many, many billions of dollars. But Adam, question for you. How do people in England view playoffs here? And is that something that you think would ever like trickle into the Premier League at any point?
- [48:14]
Adam Crafton
As in to decide the championship winner? Yeah, I think people like it with, you know, people who are into NFL in the uk, which is growing, to be honest. You know, it's now shown on sky or BBC. There's highlight shows. I think people like it. I think it appeals. Could you do it with the Premier League? There'd be resistance because there's resistance to everything. Imagine, I mean, you could go out and say, we're going to give everyone, I don't know, $100 and there'll be resistance because it's change. Right?
- [48:53]
Landon Donovan
So true.
- [48:54]
Adam Crafton
So there is a bit of that. I have been thinking it in the last few years. There are those years, right, where, and it may be one this year, where Liverpool actually ended up winning the league by 15 points and you're in April and it's a bit like, yeah, right. That's not that exciting. Right.
- [49:14]
Tim Howard
Yeah.
- [49:14]
Adam Crafton
Whisper that quietly. You know, a team, you know, when City win. To be fair with City, it's tended to be pretty close even. Even though it's felt inevitable. Yeah, they're going to win. It's tended to be a couple of points here or there. I think what you could do is a playoff for the fourth place for the final Champions League place.
- [49:35]
Tim Howard
That's interesting.
- [49:36]
Adam Crafton
So particularly now that you've got this kind of clutch of clubs who are all pretty competent between kind of third and, I don't know, seventh or eighth in the table. Sure. Maybe you take the teams that are third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh or something like that and put them into a playoffs because, I don't know, I think it's a bit lame that you can finish fourth and you get into the Champions League. And I quite like the idea of actually maybe you should have to do a bit more to do that. And it could also increase the teams that actually make it through. The flip side is you could get a team like Forest that finished fourth and everyone says, well, they absolutely deserve to make it because they've overperformed so much. And then you put them into a playoffs and then it gives, I don't know, a man silly a second chance and obviously they then take it. So that would be the counter argument. I also don't dislike the idea of kind of 17th place relegate, you know, so possibly you relegate four clubs instead of three or you do a playoff between the. The fourth bottom team and the fourth team in the championship or something like that. Yeah, I think Germany.
- [50:48]
Tim Howard
Does they do that in Germany?
- [50:49]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:50]
Tim Howard
That's actually quite. That's quite entertaining.
- [50:52]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, it is entertaining. I mean, look, Adam, what I would say, and the English fans that listen to this or the American Premier League fans listening to this, are going to hate me. But that's how my world.
- [51:06]
Tim Howard
They already do.
- [51:07]
Landon Donovan
That's how my world works. You made an interesting point. I should know this. It's somewhere close, but I think. Is there 10American owners in the Premier League?
- [51:17]
Adam Crafton
I think it might be more now.
- [51:19]
Landon Donovan
Okay, it might be more now. But to your point, and I want to make sure this is. People understand this, in order to pass any sort of change in the Premier league, you need 14 owners of the 20 to vote in favor of that. If. If they're. If they're at Some point is 14 or 15American owners, which it seems to be trending that way and they have, they have ideas to make change. It's 2025. I put nothing past anybody because, by the way, these are their assets, these are their business assets. And most, most of these American owners are uber successful businessmen. Right. And so I, I don't put it past them. And by the way, by the way, television rights are, are, are only going up. Only going up. NBC paid $2.6 billion for the last rights. That's going up globally. Right. So people, people are going to want more. By the way, when, when, when you start to pay this type of money, the viewer is then going to expect more and you have to deliver.
- [52:23]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. So, Tim, you're 100% right on that. They will want more. And the question is, what is it they're going to get? Right? Is it? So one thing that is constantly spoken about is do you end up with a regular season game being taken around the world? I would say most likely to the States. I don't think the Premier League will be the first to do it, but we know La Liga are desperate to do it. We know Serie A would do it. We know UEFA would do it with the Champions League. It could be something like that. It could be. How do you bring the viewer closer to the action? Is it micing up the coaches on the touchline? Is it giving access to locker room halftime team talks? I don't want to talk, Tim. I don't want to put you out of a job at halftime analysis. But.
- [53:08]
Landon Donovan
No, but, no, but listen to that point, to that point. And you mentioned you could give people in England $100 and they'd question why, right? They hate change. You cannot get anything. I've played in the Premier League, Lane's played in the Premier League. You cannot get anything from these clubs. They're so protective. Right, Brentford. Now, if you've seen over the last couple of NBC shows, Brentford has put out no sound, no audio, just. Just video of Thomas Frank and his team giving a team talk pregame halftime. That's brilliant. Right? So. But in order to get these, these teams to give more, it's like pulling teeth and it's really, really difficult. But that is the way we're headed. Something has to change for, for the astronomical fees. And look, I think, you know, going back to the American side of things, I know we've stoked some fires here, Adam, and having you on and your insight's been brilliant. And I just think, you know, for our listeners, you got to keep sending in your questions, keep sending them feedback at unfiltered soccer, because I know I still have more questions and the answers are what we're all looking for. Right. Because promotion, relegation can possibly live somewhere in the ecosystem of American soccer. I just don't think right now or for the foreseeable future it's going to be all inclusive. I think it's going to have to, as you said, ld, someone's going to have to take the bull by the horns and do it themselves before it becomes overarching.
- [54:33]
Tim Howard
Yeah, we're gonna stop torturing Adam. I want to leave you guys with this. Just, I, I just thought. This is so interesting. Okay, so this was a quote from Don Garber on when asked about if promotion, relegation could exist, he said, I'm gonna leave you with two quotes. First is Don Garber. This is the never say never thing. Garber said. I've been pretty consistent on that. We shouldn't walk away from having the courage to evolve over time. And as the league continues to grow and evolve and our fan base and the market to continue to grow and evolve, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be thinking about new structures. I don't see how that works today, but I can't look far enough in the future to say never. Okay, so interesting. Okay, then Nashville SC CEO Ian Ayre was asked about if MLS owners would want promotion and relegation. And he said, MLS owners voting for promotion and relegation would be like turkeys voting for things. Thanksgiving.
- [55:35]
Landon Donovan
So there you have it. There you have it.
- [55:37]
Tim Howard
Right? I think that honors very clearly. But Don sees the big picture and says, you know what? You never know. Let's be open to it. And I don't. Maybe it's not exact promotion, relegation the way we're thinking of it now, but you're only limited by your creativity. Right?
- [55:50]
Adam Crafton
So it's, it's also, it's also interesting, guys, in terms of how, how does MLS actually continue to expand? What, they're now up to 30? I think, as you say, you'd expect, maybe Phoenix come Vegas. But the challenge is you're talking about $500 million expansion fee, then you're also expected to build a soccer specific stadium. In a market like Vegas, for example, you'd have to have a retractable roof because of the heat. You're talking about people who have a billion to drop before they even started.
- [56:25]
Tim Howard
Many billions.
- [56:26]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, so before you even started. Right. And I know this is a place with a lot of billionaires, but are there that many more people that want to be spending that on On a new MNS team.
- [56:37]
Tim Howard
I'm not sure I always ask that, but there's always more. Yeah, there's always more.
- [56:44]
Adam Crafton
Always more.
- [56:45]
Tim Howard
Yeah. All right, guys, we are going to take a break. Adam, thank you so much. We will dive into mailbag questions that you guys submitted about promotion, relegation. Adam, I think we're going to have to have you back on once. We have a lot of feedback from our fans, but we appreciate you were brilliant.
- [57:00]
Adam Crafton
Pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- [57:01]
Tim Howard
We'll be right back with the AT&T fan Connection here on Unfiltered Soccer with Landon and Tim, presented by Volkswagen.
- [57:19]
D
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- [57:47]
Landon Donovan
Eduardo, it's time for the Fan connection presented by AT&T. Every week we invite you, the listener, to connect with us by submitting your questions. The best way to grow the game of soccer in the US is to keep asking questions and keep talking about this sport we all love. At, AT and T. Connecting changes everything. And on uslnt, our connections with you will help grow the game. LD it's not everyone's favorite time of the week, but it is absolutely Jordan's favorite time of the week. Jordan, get on in here and give us some questions.
- [58:19]
Tim Howard
Hello, Junior.
- [58:20]
Landon Donovan
Hello.
- [58:20]
E
I don't know if I can follow that. Adam was great.
- [58:23]
Tim Howard
Hey, it was great.
- [58:24]
Adam Crafton
Awesome, great.
- [58:25]
Tim Howard
We're gonna have great questions after this.
- [58:27]
Landon Donovan
Yeah. Yeah, we are.
- [58:28]
Tim Howard
This lights a fire.
- [58:29]
E
Well, let's start with the questions that we've gotten so far already. These are all about promotion and relegation. We're staying with the the theme this week. Okay, so the first one came via YouTube. Someone who's identifying themselves as EGC.
- [58:44]
Landon Donovan
EGC.
- [58:44]
E
That means what does your ideal American soccer landscape look like in 50 years? If we aren't aiming to build a pyramid, what are we trying to build and are we done growing?
- [58:59]
Tim Howard
Great question. God, I need time to think about that.
- [59:04]
Landon Donovan
I'm not going to jump in. Yeah, I mean, I think the league. I don't know how much more we can grow, but it's by sheer numbers. Size, right? I Think.
- [59:18]
Tim Howard
You mean teams?
- [59:19]
Landon Donovan
Teams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like number of teams. You know, I think that you have, we have to. Now, 50 years is a long time, right? So I think, I think we have to continue the growth financially. Right. You know, in terms of getting the right television deals in place, you know, getting the right routes of certain clubs, you know, because there's. With expansion, you have new clubs, right? They're, they're, they're, they didn't exist and they plop down a stadium and create a logo and here we go, right. And people love that. But as we talk about around the world, these, these clubs and stadiums are institutions and they're the lifeblood of the community. And so you. I, although I'm currently against promotion, relegation in its natural form, I think you begin to, 50 years from now, within that time frame, certainly have to build a pyramid scheme. There has to be a coming together. There has to be a complete overhaul of the youth system, the pay to play model, right. Which is at the foundation and the roots, and then that builds all the way up. And it has to be one structure and one tier under the same umbrella. Do we get there economically because of how America works? Not sure, but I'd like to think in 50 years we do.
- [60:34]
Tim Howard
I struggle with this because I believe in a free and open market in America and I love that. And so I love that concept that you can have a Starbucks across the street from a Phil's Coffee, across the street from a blue bottle coffee, you know, and everybody just, you know, either survive or you don't. Yeah, My, my problem is, is that that system, and we'll get into this in another episode, has destroyed youth soccer in our country. So I know we're not talking about youth soccer today, but if it was a free for all and there was MLS and USL and NISA and NASL and some other one, that. And does it dilute soccer as a general statement that we all love and are trying to grow? I don't know. So I'm, I'm not trying to sit on the fence here, but I think ideally everybody in the US soccer landscape could come together and do what's. I'm an idealist, I know, do what's best for the sport. I know that probably will never happen, but that would be my goal.
- [61:40]
E
Okay, here is a question from Neil via email. How do you feel about so called yo yo teams? A label famously put on teams like West Brom, who go up and down fairly regularly between the championship and the Premier League. Is there a Value in being that type of team or is staying competitive in the championship more beneficial?
- [62:02]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, I mean, I, I don't have any issues with, with yo yo clubs. You know, we, you talk about Southampton, Norwich, Burnley, Leeds, not so much Leeds. They were in the wilderness for a while, but West Brom is a great, great example of that. Look, I think when you own a team is the great thing about ownership. You, you, you run it how you want, right. And you know, Norwich was the most recent yo yo team where they found, they found a way to, you know, bounce up and not overspend and go back down and then use the parachute payments to be the best team in the, in, in the championship and then go straight back up. And there was a formula to that. I don't think it's a sustainable formula. I don't think that's something you can do over the course of like a decade like that. That's a, that's a four or five.
- [62:49]
Tim Howard
Our teams, sorry to jump in.
- [62:51]
Adam Crafton
Are.
- [62:51]
Tim Howard
I never even thought about teams purposely do that.
- [62:55]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, I mean they're not going to.
- [62:57]
Tim Howard
Come even thought of that.
- [62:58]
Landon Donovan
They're, they're basically, they're basically in that gray area of. They're, they're not, they're not trying to overspend on players to stay in the Premier League because they know that the win they can get, they can double dip, right? So they know they go down and get the parachute payment, then they go up and get the promotion payment. So, um. And, and quite frankly, it's actually not the, the worst business model.
- [63:19]
Tim Howard
No, it's actually not.
- [63:20]
Landon Donovan
You know, but it's risky. But it's risky. That's, that's the thing. It's very risky because, because as we know, for every, you know, I just named five Yo yo clubs. I could, I could name five, 50. I could name 50 teams that, that it don't work for.
- [63:34]
E
So just a follow up question. Is it a. If promotion and relegation were to be adopted by any league, is that position that those yo yo teams, is that going to happen in any league?
- [63:50]
Tim Howard
Good question.
- [63:51]
Landon Donovan
Good question.
- [63:52]
Tim Howard
I mean, yeah, I could see teams, yeah. Like, look, there are. With ownership, you get a vast spectrum of people who really care about winning and there's people who's like, I could care less. My valuation's going up, I'm trying to break even or make some cash. You could absolutely see some people saying, let's just toe this line. For sure.
- [64:11]
Adam Crafton
Yeah.
- [64:11]
Landon Donovan
Because to Landon's question, to me, being a Yo yo club isn't you're not, you're not getting lucky. You're not like, oh, we were just really good this year. We went up and we really stink in the Premier League. So we went down. Like, that's a, there's, that's a planned model. So it's not, it's not about luck. Like, oh, we just happen to be really good this year. So.
- [64:30]
E
Yeah, and a lot of those clubs have a lot of trophies right, from the championship as a result of that.
- [64:35]
Tim Howard
Yes, Championship trophies, baby. Account for a lot.
- [64:39]
E
Okay, this question is from MNB via YouTube. In a two tier MLS, if you remove the financial penalty of relegation and split revenues relatively equally across all teams from both divisions, would that remove the hesitations of promotion and relegation?
- [64:56]
Tim Howard
But then what's the incentive?
- [64:58]
Landon Donovan
What's the incentive?
- [64:59]
Tim Howard
First, the first. Let's call MLS 1 versus MLS. What would be the incentive? You know, I don't know if there's prestige, you know, incentives or whatever, but like, what's the incentive if there's no financial. What are you getting the prestige to?
- [65:16]
Landon Donovan
Your point is, when you go to the Premier League, you get the money to bring in international or World cup type stars. They cost money, right? You get the money from the television revenue. I, I don't know if I, if I necessarily agree. It's always about finances. Otherwise, it's not that. It's not that exciting. I'm not really that interested in a relegation battle where the team goes down, but they can still pretty much buy the same players and like that then just becomes two almost even evenly matched leagues. The whole point, the whole point of, of a first tier and a second tier is that they're not evenly matched. They're head and shoulders.
- [66:02]
Tim Howard
I guess, though, like, you're right. So I'm just thinking if it was the Premier League and the championship, I mean, there's obviously no opportunity to be in the Champions League. You can't win the league. So maybe there's ways you can create it. It's an interesting idea. Maybe you just make that gap much smaller in the financial differences between the leagues so that it's, you know, not so stark. Interesting idea.
- [66:26]
E
All right, that's it, guys. Thank you.
- [66:28]
Tim Howard
All right, junior, thank you very much. All right, guys. That was certainly interesting, Tim, I enjoyed that. Did you?
- [66:35]
Landon Donovan
Yeah, it was good. It's just a conversation that can continue to go around and around. I love having it because I love learning about the other side of the argument. So Adam was brilliant.
- [66:44]
Tim Howard
Yeah, that was awesome. Adam was really good. And I think you guys will probably have lots of questions. We don't have the answers, but a really good topic and one that will be continually discussed here and elsewhere. Thanks you guys. Thanks for being here. Remember to subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. Follow the show all across our social media platforms at Unfiltered Soccer for lots of bonus content.
- [67:09]
Landon Donovan
Thank you so much to all of our listeners. We love you all. Adam Crafton of the Athletic, you are absolutely, absolutely brilliant today.
- [67:15]
Tim Howard
It was great.
- [67:16]
Adam Crafton
Yeah.
- [67:16]
Landon Donovan
Thank you. And the biggest thank yous to our presenting sponsor, BW and our Fan Connection sponsor, AT&T. Have an amazing week. No episode next week, but we'll be back in two weeks with another edition of Unfiltered Soccer.