Showdown at the Federal Reserve

Summary

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Unhedged Podcast Summary

Episode: "Showdown at the Federal Reserve"

Date: January 13, 2026
Hosts: Katie Martin & Rob Armstrong (Financial Times)

Episode Overview

This episode unpacks the dramatic and unprecedented conflict between the White House and the Federal Reserve, centering on the Department of Justice’s threat of criminal indictment against Fed Chair Jerome Powell. Katie and Rob analyze what Powell’s explosive Sunday night statement means for Fed independence, how markets responded, and the broader risks to central banking norms amid political pressure. They debate whether the storm has passed or if more turbulence lies ahead.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jerome Powell’s Extraordinary Statement

• [00:13] Powell’s televised remarks:
  • DOJ issued grand jury subpoenas to the Fed, allegedly over Powell’s Senate testimony and Fed building renovations, but Powell claims these are pretexts for punishment over policy independence.
  • Quote:
    "This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings... The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President." — Jerome Powell [00:13]
• Host reaction:
  • Katie calls this a “mic drop” moment [01:25].
  • Rob notes the power of simple truth sounding radical in the current political climate [01:31].

2. The Importance—and Fragility—of Fed Independence

• [01:56] Katie emphasizes the world’s most important central bank is under real threat.

• The fact Powell made an unscheduled Sunday statement is historically significant, usually reserved for market panics or crises [03:26].

• Political pressure on the Fed has included attempts to oust Governor Lisa Cook (pending Supreme Court review), criticism over interest rate policy, and scrutiny over the HQ renovation.

  Quote:
  "Powell is just effectively saying here in the statement on Sunday, knock it off. Like, we've got a job to do. And it's incredibly important that we're not subject to political intimidation when we're making decisions on interest rates." — Katie Martin [04:35]

3. Central Bankers Use Words More Than Actions

• Rob reminds listeners: credibility and belief are central bankers' greatest tools—most of their power lies in shaping expectations [05:05].
• Mario Draghi’s famous “whatever it takes” phrase—words stabilizing a crisis before direct action was needed [05:50].

4. Political Escalation & Market Complacency

• Katie references previous skepticism from Rob about the severity of Trump’s meddling (“meh, don’t worry about it”), which he concedes was misplaced [06:30].

• Market reaction:

  • Monday after Powell’s speech, markets remain calm.
  • Katie debunks the myth that markets always signal the dangers of political overreach:
    "Markets are not a barometer of stupid or horrible ideas. Sometimes cuts—even driven by political motives—are good for stocks in the short term." [08:11]

• Gold was the only major asset to move; the rates and bond markets were surprisingly muted [09:40].

5. Lasting Damage to the Fed’s Authority

• Rob predicts serious consequences for future Fed chairs—any successor to Powell will be seen as politically compromised, harming the institution’s credibility [09:40].
  • "Whoever is next after Powell...is probably irrevocably damaged as a figure of authority by this incident." — Rob Armstrong [09:40]
• Central bank credibility compared to a fire extinguisher—you don’t think about it until there’s a crisis [09:40].

6. What Could Make the Situation Worse?

• Calm markets may embolden further political interference—Trump is known to "try again" if market reaction is mild [11:51].
• Rob notices Republican resistance and media silence from the White House, signs that Trump’s grip may be slipping [12:46].

7. White House Deflection and Accountability

• Trump claims the DOJ action is independent and denies involvement [13:57].
• Katie and Rob agree the political tone comes from the top, regardless of formal responsibility.

8. Institutional Rally Around the Fed

• Former chairs (e.g., Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke) and central bankers globally issue public letters of support for Powell and Fed independence [15:32].

• Notably, the Bank of Japan does not co-sign—left as a curiosity [16:12].

• "We're seeing a kind of Avengers assemble moment...dusty economists with their half-moon glasses...coming out and saying, Don't do this." — Katie Martin [15:32]

9. Markets Don’t Price Political Risks—Until They Do

• Rob: Markets prefer quantifiable risks—central bank independence is “a fluffy abstraction” they’d rather ignore [16:25].
• Katie: The drama will hang over the Fed even if markets ignore it now [21:11].

10. Wall Street’s Relative Silence

• Major finance leaders have been notably quiet. Only Jamie Dimon (JP Morgan) mildly criticized the DOJ move and waited until prompted at an earnings call [18:50].
  • "If you are some combination of Jamie Dimon...Jane Fraser...Steve Schwarzman...Larry Fink...Ken Griffin—get off your butt...There should be a joint letter that says, we like the Fed just as it is." — Katie Martin [19:41, 19:59]
• The hosts chide financial titans for their lack of leadership [20:13].

11. Will Things Get Worse Before They Get Better?

• Katie: Predicts more trouble ahead, as pushing boundaries rarely stops after one failed attempt [20:26].

  • "I think there's a risk that he [Trump] digs his heels in here." — Katie Martin [20:26]

• Rob: Sees potential for stabilization due to pushback from markets, officials, and global bankers, but warns risks resurface during the next crisis [20:44].

• Katie:
  "You can't put the shit back in the donkey. Once you've launched this sort of attack on the Fed, you can't unlaunch it." [21:11]

12. The Supreme Court’s Decisive Role

• Two cases pending:

  1. Lisa Cook’s alleged paperwork errors (potential grounds for firing).
  2. A general case about the president’s power to dismiss heads of independent agencies.

• Rob: The real test may be what the Supreme Court decides, not just what happens in markets [21:24].

  • "If the Supreme Court gives him the okay...to get rid of Lisa Cook, maybe the game looks different and we have a real problem." — Rob Armstrong [21:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jerome Powell’s Defiant Speech:

  • "No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, is above the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure." [00:13]

• Mic Drop Moment:

  • "Oof. Mic drop." — Katie Martin [01:25]

• On Central Banker Power:

  • "What they say is more important than what they do." — Rob Armstrong [05:05]

• On Admitting Error:

  • "It makes me feel like I am having bamboo spears stuck under my fingernails. But I will admit...you have said something that turned out to be right and I have said something that turns out to be wrong." — Rob Armstrong [06:30]

• On Political Risk:

  • "Whoever is next after Powell...is probably irrevocably damaged as a figure of authority by this incident." — Rob Armstrong [09:40]

• On Market Complacency:

  • "When markets don't freak out, [Trump] looks around the room and thinks, this is fine. I'm going to have another stab at it." — Katie Martin [11:51]

• On Wall Street’s Silence:

  • "If you're too chicken to do it by yourself, there should be a joint letter that says, we like the Fed just as it is. Thanks very much." — Katie Martin [20:00]

• On Irreversibility:

  • "Once you've launched this sort of attack on the Fed, you can't unlaunch it. This is going to hang over it now." — Katie Martin [21:11]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:13 – Jerome Powell’s full statement
• 01:25 – “Mic drop” reaction
• 03:26 – Context: why Powell’s unscheduled speech is so rare
• 05:05 – Central bankers’ real power is words
• 06:30 – Rob admits he underestimated the risk
• 09:40 – Lasting damage to Fed credibility and analogy of the fire extinguisher
• 11:51 – Why market calm can actually be risky
• 13:57 – Trump deflects responsibility
• 15:32 – Institutional rally: letters of support from former officials
• 18:50 – Wall Street’s silence & Jamie Dimon's tepid statement
• 20:26 – Hosts’ end-of-episode predictions: worse before better?
• 21:24 – Supreme Court cases as the real pivot

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Language and Tone

• Informal, witty, and sardonic banter.
• Serious concern beneath jokes about “bamboo spears,” “the bank of Donald Trump,” and “putting the shit back in the donkey.”
• Both hosts combine deep market knowledge with approachable language and a knack for memorable, punchy metaphors.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

If you haven’t followed the headlines, this episode offers a gripping, insider’s guide to the stakes of central bank independence in the US. After a bombshell Sunday night speech by Jerome Powell, the podcast breaks down why the markets seem calm, why that may not be the best sign, how institutional support for the Fed is building, and why the next move may hinge on Supreme Court decisions. The hosts’ take—vivid, opinionated, and often humorous—reminds listeners that the consequences of this Fed drama could outlast headlines and quietly reshape markets for years to come.

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Transcript

[Rob Armstrong]

Foreign.

[Katie Martin]

Here's Jerome Powell, chair of the Federal Reserve, speaking on Sunday night.

[Jerome Powell]

On Friday, the Department of justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas threatening a criminal indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. I have deep respect for the rule of law and for accountability in our democracy. No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, is above the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions or. Or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.

[Katie Martin]

Oof. Mic drop. Hey, Rob. I mean, what on earth is going on here?

[Rob Armstrong]

It tells you something that everyone was astonished by that speech because all that was was a man saying something we all know to be true, every single person knows to be true. And it tells you something about the dialogue around our political system. That this is, you know, somebody just speaking plainly about what is obviously true is a mic drop moment.

[Katie Martin]

And that thing that is true is the independence of the Federal Reserve. The US Central bank, the world's most important financial institution, is in jeopardy. This is unhedged, the Markets and Finance podcast from the Financial Times and Pushkin. I'm Katie Martin, a market columnist at the FT in London with plenty to write about. And I'm joined through the magic of technology all the way from New York City by that guy, the slightly stunned Rob Armstrong off of the Unhedged newsletter. Rob, central bankers normally talk in code very, very politely. This was not that was it.

[Rob Armstrong]

This was really remarkable. And for me it was an extremely heartening moment because it was kind of non hysterical, concise and absolute all at the same time. And I just thought it was great. And you know, he did with that plain speaking. He allowed a lot of good things to happen. I think he gave cover for Republican politicians to say, okay, now you've gone too far, Mr. President. And I think he allowed markets to kind of breathe out and realize maybe there is a line here on central bank independence that won't be Crossed.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah. This will not stand. Right. So for people who are not familiar with how, like, central bank communication works, like, these things are very tightly choreographed and very well planned and all of that, it is very, very unusual for the Fed to come out and make an unscheduled statement on a Sunday night. That's the sort stuff that's normally reserved for Lehman Brothers has just died, or there's a massive pandemic going on and we need to, you know, pull the emergency cord or something like that. So just the fact that they said anything in this sort of forum is, like, extraordinary. But, yeah, it was absolutely a case of, you guys have been on our case for months. You have tried to get rid of Fed Governor Lisa Cook, and that's going through the Supreme Court at the moment. We should have a resolution on that in the next few weeks. You have constantly beaten up on us for not cutting interest rates as fast as Trump wants us to. You've made all sorts of weird, spurious suggestions about the renovation of the Federal Reserve headquarters, which, you know, sure, they're running over budget, but it's a building project. These things run over budget.

[Rob Armstrong]

Government building project.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, and Powell is just effectively saying here in the statement on Sunday, knock it off. Like, we've got a job to do. And it's incredibly important that we're not subject to political intimidation when we're making decisions on interest rates. And, yeah, I mean, I was kind of blown away by this challenge. I thought, finally, someone's standing up to what's going on here.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah, it was very impressive. And I think you have to bear in mind that while for most of us, what we do is more important than what we say, in the case of central bankers, what they say is more important than what they do. Central bankers, a key part of their job is convincing the world that they will do, in the immortal words of Mario Draghi, whatever it takes. And they don't actually do that much. Their job is to make people believe that if things really go sideways, they will do everything, even while they are not doing very much.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah. So Mario Draghi is the absolute maestro of this. He was president of the European Central bank in the middle of the Eurozone debt crisis. And exactly. With those like that tiny little sentence, we will do whatever it takes to solve this problem. Problem, 70% solved. So, as you say, it's all about words. I think we should not forget one important thing here, Rob, which is that I did say just a couple of podcasts ago that a president who's willing to demolish a wing of the White House, bomb Caracas and threaten Greenland, could not be trusted when it came to the Fed. And you, Rob Armstrong said, meh, don't worry about it.

[Rob Armstrong]

It's kind of, it's true, I've been too complacent. And, you know, looking back now at the things I said and thought, you know, the Lisa Cook incident should have taught us that eventually he'll get to Powell. That was, he was warmed up with that, with going after Fed Governor Lisa Cook. Yeah, I'm afraid, although it makes me feel like I am having bamboo spears stuck under my fingernails. But I will admit that in this case, you have said something that turned out to be right and I have said something that turns out to be wrong.

[Katie Martin]

I'm gonna take a little clip of that and use it as my ringtone.

[Rob Armstrong]

But, I mean, I think one question we should tackle here is whether Powell has done enough. Right. Speaking to a lot of people on Wall street yesterday, a lot of the people I talked to, and by the way, after this whole incident happened, Monday rolls around and markets open and it is calm out there.

[Katie Martin]

Let's talk about that first. Right. So, you know, I think there is this sort of expectation out there that markets are somehow their job in life is to be a barometer of, like, stupid or horrible ideas, and that's not how they work. Right. So all things being equal, the steps here are Trump intimidates the Fed or reworks the Fed in some way to make it do what he wants. I don't know, maybe he puts a sign over it saying, this is now called the bank of Donald Trump and it does whatever Donald Trump wants. I'm spitballing, but you get the idea.

[Rob Armstrong]

He's been known to do stuff like that.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah. This is an organization, this is an institution, an incredibly important institution that he wants to control. And so help him, he's going to find a way to control this thing. That's the, that's the risk here. And if that happens, that means that you have a Federal Reserve that is cutting interest rates really, really hard, even if you've got inflation that's running above target, which is pretty dangerous stuff. It means you can get runaway inflation, but it also means you get the dollar falling out of bed, and it means you're putting a big sell signal over US Government bonds and all sorts of terrible things happen. So it does look a little bit weird that you roll into work on Monday morning after this all happened on Sunday night, and markets. But the fact that it's like, you know, kind of stupid. This stuff that the Trump and his hangers on are trying to do here with the Fed doesn't mean that markets should fall on it. Because if he does manage to get interest rates a lot lower, at least in the short term, that is good for stocks. It's not bad for stocks in the short term.

[Rob Armstrong]

I agree.

[Katie Martin]

Added to which, you know, you've already got the Federal Reserve cutting interest rates. Fine, not as quickly as Trump would like, but so what's the market going to do immediately? Price in loads? More interest rate cuts, or does it say, I just don't think he can really do this. So I think the fact that the main market reaction is a jump in gold and that's kind of it, that kind of makes sense to me personally.

[Rob Armstrong]

I was surprised that the bond market and the rates market and all its various permutations was broadly not interested in the whole thing. I, you know, I expected a mild reaction from markets, but not as mild a reaction as we got from the rates market in particular. And part of that credit to Powell, he drew a line. But I seriously wonder if this is really over. And in particular, I think who, whoever is next after Powell as chair of the Fed, and there's lots of interesting politics and ways this could play out. Whoever is next after Powell is probably irrevocably damaged as a figure of authority by this incident. I think that the market will give less credibility to this person knowing that they had to massively suck up to Trump to get the job in the first place. And I think people within the Fed, other members of the Open Market Committee or the rate setting committee and other career bureaucrats at the Fed will look at this person coming in and see them as suspect, which is no way to run any organization. So I think serious damage has been done here and that markets may respond. Yet things are going pretty well right now in the world. But I mean, I use the metaphor I leaned on in my column was central bank credibility is a bit like a fire extinguisher. You know, it's in the House somewhere, but you probably don't remember where. But when smoke starts pouring out of the kitchen, you start to remember how important it was and wish that you knew where that thing was.

[Katie Martin]

Oh, yeah, that credibility comes in all kinds of handy. I mean, so a couple of points there. First of all, I'm not sure that the market ever really intended to take the successor to Jay Powell super seriously in the first place, because this is always, he's always going to pick A yes man. And it was always likely to be a man. The other thing is as, because markets are so calm. This is the thing with Trump. We've seen it over and over again. When markets don't freak out, he looks around the room and thinks, this is fine. I'm going to have another stab at it. That is a bit worrying, isn't it? Because you know, there's nothing in the markets right now to make him backtrack. So you'll remember that last April he did his Liberation Day tariffs. The reason he backtracked really was cause the bond market started to freak out. Unless something freaks out, I do think there's a reasonable danger that he's just gonna keep running with this one.

[Rob Armstrong]

It's true. The counterpoint to that would be that we have seen some things in the last 24 or 48 hours that make me think that Trump's iron grip on the American political system is starting to slip. The comments of Republican senators and representatives about not doing this, the relative silence from the White House in defending this action. The stories now are all about like, who's Trump gonna fire? That's what the papers have in America.

[Katie Martin]

Right?

[Rob Armstrong]

Are they gonna, is he gonna fire Pulte or Bondi or whoever? And it's like this is, this is a lame duck president who is clearly flailing around a little bit to try to find something that voters will respond to.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

And it's like we're seeing the old man start to daughter a little bit. So maybe markets don't need to play quite as strong a policing role in the way you just described, as they did in his first term or indeed in the last year.

[Katie Martin]

One important thing to stress here is that Trump is saying, what's that? Department of justice is indicting Jay Powell. It's nothing to do with me. Like absolutely nothing to do with me. This is a Department of justice thing. That means like a couple of things. I think it means that if this all goes wrong, he could find someone to blame for that. That's not him. But the other important thing here is that even if Donald Trump said signature is not on the bottom of this piece of paper that says go and arrest this man, we all know that if it was a different guy in the White House, none of this would have be, would be happening. Right. Lisa Cook wouldn't, wouldn't be put under pressure. The head of the, you know, Bureau of Labor Statistics wouldn't have got the heave ho after some bad jobs numbers, none of this would be happening to Jay Powell if it was anyone else in the White House. So even if his name isn't on the piece of paper somewhere, we all know that this, this is a Trump thing, right?

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah, that's correct. And whether it was his personal directive or just his people trying to anticipate his desires. Yeah, that's an academic question. You know, it is conceivable and would be consistent with the pre Donald Trump history of the Department of Justice that the Department of Justice took initiative without the President. And even I think by, as a kind of norm or tradition, there's often situations where the two stay separate. But I just don't think, you know, I, I don't think it matters one way or another. We know who's setting the tone here.

[Katie Martin]

But what we're seeing now is a bit of a kind of, you know, a rally behind Jay Powell. Right. There's a bit of a kind of Avengers assemble moment where like dusty economists with their half moon glasses are kind of, you know, coming out of their libraries and saying, Alan Greenspan.

[Rob Armstrong]

And you know, I say this with respect to him. I didn't know he was still alive until I saw the statement from, and I was happy to note it, that Alan Greenspan is still alive and still signing letters at age 99 or 100. And he joined other former treasury and Fed officials, signing one letter saying, don't.

[Katie Martin]

Do this, Ben Bernanke, you know, the dream team.

[Rob Armstrong]

And then we had a list of prominent central bankers from around the world write a similar letter, interestingly not including the bank of Japan, which is a topic for another hour, but I thought was interesting.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

So there is a rally behind him. Again, I keep coming back to this question, but I want to emphasize it. The game is still on. Right. We all, you know, I think markets and people like us both want Powell to have slammed the door on this problem because people in markets hate thinking about this stuff. They don't, you know, they're not good at calculating how they should respond. These are risks that are hard to quantify and are ambiguous. Central bank independence itself is a kind of fluffy abstraction that markets people hate thinking about. We all want it to be over, but what I keep coming back to is it's not over and the risk is still out there. And there have been a few notes from Wall street banks saying this creates a real risk for equities. And although equities, as you noted earlier, do respond well sometimes to lower rates and to a tiny little bit of inflation or they're at least willing to tolerate a tiny Little bit of inflation. Boy, do they not like things getting out of hand. So I think you made the right point. We shouldn't make the classic mistake of thinking that markets instantly discount future damage to the financial system and be on our toes about what all this stuff means. I mean, I felt genuine relief when I was sitting on the train this morning and the little alert came across my phone saying that inflation stayed constant between November and December. We got the CPI inflation report because, boy, this whole discussion might have changed color really quickly if we got a surprisingly hot December inflation report, which, thank God, a knock on wood, we did not. Right. So the best outcome here, of course, is that we cruise through the next three years and we don't need the fire extinguisher. In other words, markets kind of look after themselves and we have this drama running on the side, but none of this is ever put to the test. But, you know, tests come up and they come up pretty often for markets. So I don't think we can count on that.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah, you know who has been like, conspicuously quiet about all this is, as a rule, Wall Street. Right? The big Wall street heavyweights, the big titans. Where are they? When are you going to speak up about this? When are you going to join the resistance behind Jay Powell? So we have seen Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan saying, and I quote, it's probably not a great idea.

[Rob Armstrong]

And, you know, he waited until the earnings announcement to say it, basically until a reporter asked him a question about it. I would have liked to see, and in a different universe, I would have expected to see a statement from the titans of finance saying, don't do this, because nobody has more at stake in this than the people who are in the business of money.

[Katie Martin]

So if you are a titan, who is listening to this, if you are some combination of Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan, Jane Fraser from Citi, Steve Schwarzman from Blackstone, Larry Fink from Black Rock, Ken Griffin from Citadel.

[Rob Armstrong]

Get off your butt.

[Katie Martin]

If you're too chicken to do it by yourself, there should be a joint letter that says, we like the Fed just as it is. Thanks very much.

[Rob Armstrong]

I think you're absolutely right that they have not covered themselves in glory so far.

[Katie Martin]

No, still time. Still time.

[Rob Armstrong]

Titans, if you're listening, there is glory left. If you would like to get it out of the glory container and pour it all over yourself.

[Katie Martin]

We often like to end on a bit of a. Bit of a prediction. Do you think this gets worse before it gets better, or do you think it gets better before it gets worse? Or not worse. What do you think? I think this gets worse before it gets better. I think there's a risk that he digs his heels in here. What do you think?

[Rob Armstrong]

When you say he, do you mean the president or the.

[Katie Martin]

I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

I will take the other side of that. I think that Powell has done well. I think the support of the other officials and the global central bankers and the Republican congresspeople, I think all of that matters, and he will try to let this die. My perception of the risk is that it bubbles up again when we have some kind of problem in markets.

[Katie Martin]

And also on this show, before, you can't put the shit back in the donkey. Once you've launched this sort of. Once you've launched this sort of attack on the Fed, you can't unlaunch it. This is. This is going to hang over it now.

[Rob Armstrong]

But before we go to the break, Katie, I should mention something. When I was sort of just banging the phone yesterday, calling Wall street people, what do you make of all this? And what a lot of them said is, several of them said, I should say is what we really care about these cases in front of the Supreme Court. There's two cases. One of them is about Lisa Cook, the other Fed governor, who is been accused of failing to do her paperwork on her mortgage in the correct way. And Trump wants to fire her for that. And then we have another case about the general right of the president to fire the head of independent agencies at will. A lot of people were like, what the Supreme Court says is actually really important here. So if the Supreme Court gives him the okay, gives the president the okay to get rid of Lisa Cook, maybe the game looks different and we have a real problem.

[Katie Martin]

Oh, you still believe in your institutions and your checks and balances. I love that for you.

[Rob Armstrong]

I have the face of a grizzled old man, but I have the soul of an innocent child.

[Katie Martin]

That is adorable. Okay, so we're gonna be back in just a tiny sec with Longsh. Okey doke. It's time for Long Short. That part of the show where we go, long a thing we love or short a thing we hate. Rob, what you got?

[Rob Armstrong]

I am Long, the greatest app in the history of cell phones.

[Katie Martin]

Katie, you are?

[Rob Armstrong]

I am. And this app is a Chinese app I read about in the Financial Times. And the name of the app is are you dead? And in a society where more and more people are elderly and live alone, this is an app that asks you every day so whether you are alive and if you don't respond. I think it contacts the authorities. But I like this as a kind of philosophical prompt. Like even I, a healthy man who lives around other people. I need my phone to ask me whether I am truly alive.

[Katie Martin]

Every once in a while we should both get it. And I'll check on you as a kind of care in the community thing every now and then if you give me your wife's number as an emergency contact. I am long Dead trees. I had a funny experience on the train into work today where there were like fully like seven or eight people sitting around me reading actual books. Like Dead Tree paper books. Like it was the 1990s or something, man alive.

[Rob Armstrong]

And I was like, well, I love that.

[Katie Martin]

I love that. And I thought, I'm gonna read like a paper book, one of these books that doesn't glow and isn't made of plastic. I think it's beautiful.

[Rob Armstrong]

As the son of a librarian, I endorse this idea.

[Katie Martin]

Dead trees and dead apps. It all happens here. The liveliest podcast on the Internet. Listeners, we are going to be back in your ears on Thursday to check you're still alive. So listen up then. Unhedged is produced by Jake Harper and edited by Bryant Urstadt. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. We had additional help from Topher Foreheads. Cheryl Brumley is the FT's global head of audio. Special thanks to Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, Greta Cohn and Natalie Sadler. FT Premium subscribers can get the Unhedged newsletter for free and a 30 day free trial is available to everyone else. Just go to ft.com unhedgedoffer I'm Katie Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Rob Armstrong]

Sam.