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Rob Armstrong
At pjum, we actively manage risk today while targeting outperformance tomorrow. So no matter what investment risks concern you most. From geopolitics to inflation to liquidity, PGM brings disciplined risk management expertise that spans 30 market cycles. Our active approach finds opportunities and volatility, helping our clients to navigate risk and achieve their long term goals. Pjum, our investments shape tomorrow Today.
Aidan Reuter
Pushkin Tesla shares are up 14% over the last week. On the other hand, they're down 10% over the last three weeks. But on the other hand, they're up 84% over the last year. And if you bought Tesla shares in October of 2021, they are up 0% since then. So the question I have for you listeners is what makes this crazy thing go up and down? This is Unhedged, the markets and finance podcast from the Financial Times in Pushkin. I am Rob Armstrong coming to you from sweaty and humid new City. I am joined by Unhedged newsletter writer and Elon Musk whisperer, Aidan Reuter. Aidan, it's good to have you back on the show.
Elon Musk
It's good to be back. I'm not sure I've ever been called an Elon Musk whisperer, nor am I sure I want to.
Aidan Reuter
Well, you're what passes for an Elon Musk expert around here. Aidan and I just kind of want to talk about this stock is very hard to understand. I think we've put it delicately in the newsletter that it doesn't exactly respond to fundamentals in it. Some stocks do.
Elon Musk
It doesn't seem that the majority of investors in Tesla, or even just a large plurality, care much what's going on in the company underneath.
Aidan Reuter
Yes. Let me put a couple of possibilities to you for tools we can use to understand the movement in the Tesla share price. Let's start with Donald Trump's big beautiful bill. There's a couple of things in there that should affect Tesla's economic future. You want to walk us through those? Sure.
Elon Musk
Maybe it's worth taking a step back while it's up 14% this week. That's because it fell 14% in one day last week.
Aidan Reuter
Exactly. Yeah.
Elon Musk
And that came when Elon Musk and Donald Trump had this huge, huge Twitter truth social spatial, one of the most.
Aidan Reuter
Amusing Internet days we've had in a long time. So I think absolutely the nation owes them both a great debt of gratitude.
Elon Musk
Yes, there was.
Aidan Reuter
They gave to us that day.
Elon Musk
There were accusations lobbed by Elon at Donald Trump for a range of things. We don't need to go into. But they're salacious. They're salacious, to say the least. But the point is, when that happened, it fell 14%. And the reason they started this fight, allegedly, and it seems to be, is Elon being upset about the big, beautiful budget bill, which is what the Trump administration and the Republicans have been supporting.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
He has been rattling about its impacts on the deficit and how it undoes the work of his Department of Governmental Efficiency.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
But more shrewd analysts also point out that this big, beautiful budget bill is going to negatively impact Tesla.
Aidan Reuter
Ok.
Elon Musk
So very bearish estimates from JP Morgan have two parts of this really impacting Tesla. The first is the consumer EV tax credit.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
This bill proposal would unwind that consumer.
Aidan Reuter
So as tax credit stands, you buy an electrical vehicle, you get a tax credit.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Government is supporting you in buying an electric vehicle over a gas vehicle. They estimate that that will knock Tesla's operating earnings by 1.2 billion, which is a lot, given it was around 6 billion last year.
Aidan Reuter
It takes that out every year.
Elon Musk
Yes, that's the JP Morgan estimate.
Aidan Reuter
And it's like, as I remember, they're earning like 8 billion ish. 7. 8 billion ish?
Elon Musk
Yeah. In that range now, I believe it to 8. I can't remember the number off the top of my head. And then it would also end a form of carbon tax credits where if you are a manufacturer of automobiles and you are not exceeding admission standards, you get this tax credit. And then there's this market for tax credits where you can sell it to other carmakers. And it would also end or limit that.
Aidan Reuter
Okay.
Elon Musk
And they estimate that will impact their earnings by 2 billion.
Aidan Reuter
Now we're up to 3 billion or so almost of earnings out the window.
Elon Musk
They said 52% of their operating earnings last year.
Aidan Reuter
What about. There's none of the battery stuff. Tesla has this important battery business. As far as we know. The bill doesn't affect any of that stuff, does it?
Elon Musk
The bill does not. My understanding is the tariffs would.
Aidan Reuter
Yes, that's another issue. So, number one, as kind of Elon and Tesla haters love to say they get a lot of government subsidies, the Republican budget bill would cut them. This would have a major impact. But it's interesting that if that's true, I don't know. Do people think the bill's not gonna go through? Because you would think if somebody was coming for as much as half of Tesla's operating profit, the stock would be falling.
Elon Musk
Absolutely. And it actually didn't really fall that much between the big beautiful budget bill Leaving the house and the Musk, Trump spac.
Aidan Reuter
So that is interesting just in itself.
Elon Musk
Right, right.
Aidan Reuter
The market doesn't seem really to be discounting the possibility that the government is going to take all the goodies away from Tesla.
Elon Musk
It's possible that's in the mix.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
It's possible that the Musk spat with Trump and the reason it fell 14% now is that the market is starting to be attuned to, oh, he's not gonna get special treatment or he's not gonna get these carve outs or he's not even gonna have sway over a whole bunch of.
Aidan Reuter
But it came back. The point is that the stock bounced.
Elon Musk
Right back up when Musk reproached with Trump this week.
Aidan Reuter
Yes. The groveling, which is what I take Elon to have done, I guess is, you know, he said I went too far, which doesn't sound like groveling when I say it. But when somebody as bombastic as Elon says it and as self assured as Elon says it, that counts for a major retreat. Okay, we've been through the budget bill. Tariffs, tariffs.
Elon Musk
We have very high tariffs on China. Although, you know, there's some theoretical trade deal going to be worked out. Who knows? A lot of the battery supply chain is based in China. A lot of Tesla's battery supply chain in particular is global China and other places.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Got to get the metals somewhere, got to assemble somewhere, etcetera, etcetera. That is a huge deal for Tesla and any electric carmaker outside of China or outside of, you know, places where it's easy to make it.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah.
Elon Musk
At the same time, a lot of the investments that were supporting battery making United States from the ira, the Inflation Reduction Act.
Aidan Reuter
Yes. The Biden era.
Elon Musk
The Biden era are not being renewed in this bill. It's not like you're seeing additional support for that industry.
Aidan Reuter
Okay. But again, I mean, of course with the stock market there's no controlled experiments, so you never know what the stock price would have been had these things not been going on. But again, as the tariffs have come in place, you're hard pressed to see their impact kind of on a one to one basis or even in a two to one or one to two basis in the stock price of Tesla.
Elon Musk
Well, Tesla stock has kind of gone up and down since Liberation Day. It's now higher than it was when Liberation Day hit. I think that's fair to say for Tesla. I mean, other carmakers, you're seeing it a little more in what their stocks are trading at. Interestingly, the Big Tesla fall was not from Liberation Day or tariffs. It was just from kind of the Doge backlash.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Right. So starting in January, February, Musk started muddling with the US Federal government, and people started getting upset. We got rumors of declining sales in the U.S. declining sales in Europe, which wound up being true.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
And at the same time, people were starting to pare back how much of a benefit he might have actually gotten from the Trump election.
Aidan Reuter
Right.
Elon Musk
You'll remember that in November to December, after Musk really threw in his lot with Trump, the stock just roared.
Aidan Reuter
So there's kind of offsetting factors here. Clearly, as you've just described, it is the case that Musk's relationship with Trump has value on the one hand, for Tesla shareholders, but on the other hand, the question of partisanship in general, the fact that not only is Elon close to the president that many people in America don't have good feelings about, but as a political actor himself, people have mixed feelings about him. The electorate has mixed feelings about him. So there's all these kind of personal factors that kind of pull in different directions. It's good to be friends with the president. Maybe Republicans like him, but Democrats don't, depending on how you feel about what's been going on in the last couple of months. So how does all that stuff kind of net out?
Elon Musk
Yeah, Well, I think it's important to take a step back and say that while all this fluctuation has been going on with the Trump Musk relationship and with tariffs, Tesla's been struggling.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Sales have been declining in the U.S. and abroad.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
And one might say that is partially because of this partisanship which you're mentioning. So we've seen a big pickup in the share of US EVs and Tesla EVs sold in Republican counties. There was a very good paper by TD Cowan. There was like, oh, Republicans are making a bigger share of Tesla.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
But they're only gaining a little bit. And Democrats are really pulling back.
Aidan Reuter
Yes. So if I understand what you just said on net, the partisanship cuts against Tesla, the small gain in Republican counties is more than offset by the large loss among Democratic counties.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And there's been declines in the US on that reason. There's been declines in Europe. Some might say it's because Europeans don't like the Trump administration, what Musk is doing. But on both, we also have to take it with a grain of salt. Right. It's a good theory, but there's other stuff. Tariffs are sapping demand and. Or deferring demand. You have Chinese EVs, particularly outside the US that are cheap and good competitors to Tesla. So there's other things. Partisanship might just be one of the pieces of the mix.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah.
Elon Musk
But there's this interesting point made by TD Cowan that if you look at the most EV buying counties in Texas that are red, they've had this huge surge.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah.
Elon Musk
So part of what could have been holding up the market's expectation for Tesla was. Okay, well, you know, Democrats are going away, but if all counties in the US look like that one red county.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Then Republicans are gonna buy a lot of Teslas. They love Elon Musk. It's a brand thing, et cetera.
Aidan Reuter
I will say, and this is just reading out of your article, so I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but Wall street has reached its own conclusion about this. You had this great chart in the newsletter about the consensus. Wall street estimates for the number of units of Tesla cars for 2026. In 2022, the street expected 4 million Teslas to get sold. That's steadily been working its way down. Now it's barely over 2.
Elon Musk
Yeah.
Aidan Reuter
So estimates have been cut in half. And a good deal of that damage, perhaps, I don't know, 500,000 units decline in the estimates is just in the last six months or something like that.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And you know, that could partially be reflecting people not wanting to buy Tesla because of partisanship. And it also could partially be because of the other things we named Chinese competition. You know, not great US Economy. But there's also been some things at Tesla that have not been going super well. Tesla was supposed to launch a whole new stream of affordable cars, but that has been delayed indefinitely. Cybertrucks have not been the whopping success that they would have hoped.
Aidan Reuter
People don't like those much.
Elon Musk
I mean, they're polarizing.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah. And you see a lot of images of car lots full of unbought cybertrucks.
Elon Musk
I was driving in Connecticut recently and I saw somebody that had a cybertruck that had stickers on the side that said, let's go to Mars. So there's clearly some people who really love it.
Aidan Reuter
Yes. Mars colonization is a factor that we haven't talked about. But I want to just to bring.
Elon Musk
Bring this together with a partisanship point. Right. If you believe that, okay, Democrats are going to decline, foreign sales are going to decline because of China, because of all these things, including dislike of Musk, you're hoping that Republicans will start buying more and more.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah.
Elon Musk
But if Elon is no longer in a good relationship with the President or Republicans. That also cuts any optimism there.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah. And that may help to explain the groveling.
Elon Musk
Yes, absolutely.
Aidan Reuter
That's where the bread was buttered and he knew it. Now, something we've talked about on the show before, that with Elon Musk you can never neglect is the kind of brilliance premium, the idea that this entrepreneur who's done some, you have to agree, absolutely amazing things in his career will pull more innovation rabbits out of his technological hat. And I guess the one that is getting the most attention right now is robo taxis. Yeah, the autonomous robo taxi, the driverless car. So how does that factor in optimism about that?
Elon Musk
I mean, theoretically, that's another source of optimism for Tesla stock. Some people say that the way to view Tesla is not necessarily as a car company because that car company is not doing particularly well. It's a car company that's funding this vc that is Elon Musk.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Where he's investing in these future technologies.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah.
Elon Musk
In that case, you know, you could actually justify Tesla's really, really weighty valuations. He's going to invent the next great thing and he has all this cash flow coming in. But the robo taxis have not really materialized yet. You know, they're losing market share to Waymo and to other competitors already. Just the other day, Musk said they're going to unleash them in Austin, Texas, kind of for a trial run later this month. But there could still be major delays.
Aidan Reuter
It wouldn't be the first time that Elon Musk has promised a product by a deadline that didn't show up, that is for sure.
Elon Musk
And promised a product by a deadline after coming under public fire for something totally unrelated.
Aidan Reuter
So let's just review. I just want to kind of pull together some of these threads and just kind of tick off the list of stuff we've talked about so far. Big, beautiful bill, potentially very damaging to Tesla's profits, but of course we don't know what bits will go through. And the question of whether he still has pull with the administration comes in there. Tariffs potentially a drag on profits and or sales as his battery supply chain in particular is very global.
Elon Musk
But on the tariffs point, he actually has some would argue an edge over his competitors and that a lot of Teslas sold in the US in particular are assembled in the US Yes. Not Mexico or Canada.
Aidan Reuter
So that's a plus minus thing. Partisanship helps him in some places, hurts him in others. But as of right now, it looks like it's hurting more than helping. And if he falls out with Trump, that it's just two black marks on him. The relationship with Trump, of course, casting a shadow all over all of this. In any case, global competition is depressing expectations for Tesla sales along with these other factors. And finally, the robo taxi is a question mark. Aidan, we've been talking about a lot of heterogeneous factors that might explain the movements, the helter skelter movements of Tesla stocks. And frankly, we've been struggling to make them kind of map onto the stock price. Is there a way we can sum up what brings all these pieces together?
Elon Musk
I would argue the unifying theory of what has been moving Tesla, at least in the last six months, has been the relationship with the government, specifically Trump's relationship with Musk. Right. You saw the stock skyrocket after the election and then, you know, this 14% dip last week suggests that people thought there was a very heavy premium that Trump was getting. Musk was getting from Trump. And we've talked about the various bits.
Aidan Reuter
And pieces of that.
Elon Musk
Even taking a further step back to. Tesla has been reliant upon the government for a lot of its operating earnings.
Aidan Reuter
Yes, right.
Elon Musk
It gets so much money and so much help from consumer tax credits. It gets so much help from this carbon tax credit market. And in the past, if you'll remember, in the Obama administration, they got some very necessary support in their early stages.
Aidan Reuter
From the US Government and the support from the Biden administration. It's like which president does Tesla rely on the most is an open question whether it's Obama or Biden or Trump.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, the stock price has relied on the Trump Musk relationship. But have the earnings. No, the earnings have been taking a hit.
Aidan Reuter
Interesting. I mean, I would take the other side of that argument in the following sense, that much like Trump himself, Elon's superpower, and therefore the driving force behind the stock is for some reason this guy draws very strong emotions out of people and he has built a cult for himself among investors that this stock is kind of everything that it is the bet on the future. And so what matters is whether that spell is broken. And if his spell over investors is broken, all the government help in the world is going to be no good to him. Listeners, we have to break the spell too. We will be right back in a minute. With.
Rob Armstrong
Bonds are back and so is all the credit. PGym Fixed Income's monthly podcast series. From the latest trends to long term perspectives, you'll get timely fixed income insights from leading economists, research analysts and investment professionals, whether you're new to bonds or a seasoned investor, tune in to all the credit wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is intended solely for professional investor use. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.
Aidan Reuter
Listeners, welcome back. This is Long and Short, which is the portion of the show where we go long things we like and we go short things we don't like. And I am long short shorts. I think a rather modest inseam in your summer shorts this summer is the way to go. I think legs are attractive things. I think long shorts that kind of come down towards the knees are baggy and awkward. I think the whole point of wearing shorts is being cool anyway, so why would you have shorts that are almost pants? So again, table banging long on short shorts.
Elon Musk
What's your ideal inseam?
Aidan Reuter
I guess, I don't know, like four inches maybe?
Elon Musk
Oh yeah, it's pretty short.
Aidan Reuter
Yeah, you know, four or five inches, something like that.
Elon Musk
Respect.
Aidan Reuter
Okay, right on. Of course I have very, very beautiful legs, which is something you may not know about me as I tend to wear long pants to work. Aidan, do you have a long or a short for us?
Elon Musk
I do. I am long. The copper price.
Aidan Reuter
Wow.
Elon Musk
Copper prices have been surging in the US and they're also up in the rest of the world. There are some fundamental weird things going on in China with a shortage in, you know, some of the raw inputs. But also there's a rumor that there could be a tariff by the Trump administration on copper. I actually think this is one of the few areas where a tariff makes sense. I think tariffs for national security purposes are important, provided you invest in the industry to get it up and running.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
Not sure this administration will do that part.
Aidan Reuter
Right.
Elon Musk
But you know, the US has mines that could theoretically produce copper.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
We have idle capacity, industrial capacity, and it makes sense to have copper be made in the US with clean energy and with AI.
Aidan Reuter
Yes.
Elon Musk
So, you know, with the right pieces in place, I actually am supportive of the tariff and long the copper price.
Aidan Reuter
Of course, as an OG tariff hater, I have to disagree with that, but I won't go into the details. Listeners, we will be back in your feed next Tuesday. And until then, wear short shorts and be cool. Unhedged is produced by Jake Harper and edited by Bryant Urstadt. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. We had additional help from Topher for his Cheryl Brumme is the FT's global head of audio. Special thanks to Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, Greta Cohn and Natalie Sadler. FT Premium subscribers can get the unhedged newsletter for free. A 30 day free trial is available to everyone else. Just go to ft.com unhedged offer I'm Rob Armstrong. Thanks for listening. Sam.
Podcast Summary: Unhedged - "What Makes Tesla Run?"
Release Date: June 12, 2025
Hosts: Rob Armstrong & Aidan Reuter
In this episode of Unhedged, hosted by Rob Armstrong and joined by Aidan Reuter, the discussion delves deep into the volatile nature of Tesla's stock, exploring the myriad factors influencing its unpredictable fluctuations. The conversation is rich with insights into government policies, market dynamics, and Elon Musk's pivotal role in shaping investor sentiment.
The episode kicks off with a stark portrayal of Tesla's stock movements:
This roller-coaster behavior sets the stage for exploring the underlying causes of such fluctuations.
A significant portion of Tesla's performance is tied to governmental actions:
Elon Musk discusses the impact of the budget bill: "They estimate that will impact their earnings by 2 billion." (03:32)
The Big Beautiful Budget Bill threatens to revoke:
Aidan underscores the gravity: "There's none of the battery stuff. Tesla has this important battery business. As far as we know, the bill doesn't affect any of that stuff, does it?" (04:30)
However, Elon Musk points out that while the bill doesn't directly impact the battery sector, the broader economic repercussions and tariffs could pose challenges.
Tariffs, especially those targeting China, play a critical role:
Elon Musk elaborates: "We have very high tariffs on China... a lot of Tesla's battery supply chain in particular is global, China and other places." (06:22)
These tariffs complicate Tesla's global operations, affecting metal procurement and assembly processes. Furthermore, the potential introduction of tariffs on copper is discussed:
Aidan Reuter brings up copper prices: "Copper prices have been surging in the US and they're also up in the rest of the world." (18:54)
Elon Musk responds favorably towards copper tariffs: "I actually think this is one of the few areas where a tariff makes sense... we have idle capacity, industrial capacity." (19:20)
Elon Musk's interactions with political leaders, particularly Donald Trump, significantly influence Tesla's stock:
Elon Musk reflects: "I would argue the unifying theory of what has been moving Tesla... has been the relationship with the government, specifically Trump's relationship with Musk." (15:30)
The tension between Musk and Trump led to a notable 14% stock dip during a public spat. Despite attempts at reconciliation, the underlying partisanship continues to cast shadows on investor confidence. Aidan adds: "The relationship with Trump, of course, casting a shadow all over all of this." (12:26)
Tesla faces increasing competition, especially from Chinese EV manufacturers:
Elon Musk mentions: "They have Chinese EVs... cheap and good competitors to Tesla." (09:44)
Additionally, Tesla's declining sales in both the US and Europe are attributed to multiple factors, including economic downturns and stiff competition.
Product development setbacks further strain Tesla's market position:
Aidan Reuter points out delays: "Tesla was supposed to launch a whole new stream of affordable cars, but that has been delayed indefinitely." (11:14)
The underperformance of the Cybertruck is also highlighted, with mixed consumer reception leading to unsold inventory: "You see a lot of images of car lots full of unbought Cybertrucks." (11:37)
Despite current challenges, Tesla's foray into autonomous vehicles offers potential optimism:
Aidan Reuter brings up Robo Taxis: "the robo taxis have not really materialized yet... there's some major delays." (13:37)
Elon Musk acknowledges the delays but emphasizes ongoing efforts: "Just the other day, Musk said they're going to unleash them in Austin, Texas, kind of for a trial run later this month." (13:18)
Market analysts have adjusted their expectations for Tesla's growth:
Aidan Reuter cites Wall Street's revised projections: "In 2022, the street expected 4 million Teslas to get sold. That's steadily been working its way down. Now it's barely over 2." (10:33)
This significant downward revision underscores the growing skepticism about Tesla's future sales trajectory.
Bringing together the various factors, the hosts converge on the central theme:
Elon Musk posits: "Tesla has been reliant upon the government for a lot of its operating earnings... It gets so much money and so much help from consumer tax credits." (16:00)
The interplay between government support, political relationships, and market competition forms the crux of Tesla's current predicament.
In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the sustainability of Tesla's market position amidst the turbulent mix of internal and external pressures. Aidan Reuter emphasizes the importance of Elon Musk's influence: "that this guy draws very strong emotions out of people and he has built a cult for himself among investors that this stock is kind of everything that it is the bet on the future." (16:23)
The episode concludes with a nod to broader market strategies, briefly touching on other investment topics before signing off.
Notable Quotes:
"Tesla shares are up 14% over the last week. On the other hand, they're down 10% over the last three weeks." — Aidan Reuter (00:36)
"They estimate that will impact their earnings by 2 billion." — Elon Musk (03:32)
"We have very high tariffs on China... a lot of Tesla's battery supply chain in particular is global, China and other places." — Elon Musk (06:22)
"I would argue the unifying theory of what has been moving Tesla... has been the relationship with the government, specifically Trump's relationship with Musk." — Elon Musk (15:30)
This episode offers a comprehensive examination of the multifaceted elements driving Tesla's stock performance, blending economic analysis with political insights to provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of one of the most dynamic companies in the market.