What the Israel-Iran war means for markets

Summary

Unhedged Podcast Summary: "What the Israel-Iran War Means for Markets"

Release Date: June 17, 2025
Hosts: Katie Martin & Rob Armstrong, Financial Times & Pushkin Industries

---

1. Introduction to the Geopolitical Context

Katie Martin opens the episode by addressing the escalating tensions in the Middle East, specifically between Israel and Iran. She emphasizes the gravity of the situation, stating:

"Is that all more important than the human lives at risk here? Obviously not." [00:50]

While acknowledging the dire human impact, Katie shifts the focus to the economic and market implications of the conflict, setting the stage for a deep dive into how such geopolitical shocks ripple through global finance.

---

2. Market Reactions to the Conflict

Rob Armstrong delves into the immediate market responses to the Israel-Iran tensions, particularly examining oil prices. Contrary to expectations, oil prices have not surged dramatically:

"There was a big jump in the price of oil, which is pretty much what you would expect from an escalation of Middle East tensions because Iran is an oil producer. So the price rushed higher, like by 12%. But it's calmed down a lot since then." [03:53]

Katie adds context by comparing the current situation to the 2020 Russia-Ukraine conflict:

"If you compare it to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 20, then you saw oil go to $110 a barrel, like in a pretty straight line. And that was much more dramatic." [04:09]

---

3. The Role of the United States in Global Energy

Rob highlights the shifting dynamics in global oil production, emphasizing the United States' dominant position:

"The United States has emerged as the global energy superpower. I mean, these, every time I look at these numbers, they amaze me. So let's look at top producers of oil worldwide. United States, this is 2023. This is from the Energy Information Administration of the United States. 22 million barrels a day." [05:02]

This significant increase in U.S. oil production has lessened the traditional impact of Middle Eastern tensions on global oil prices.

---

4. Potential Future Scenarios and Tail Risks

Katie and Rob discuss the uncertainty surrounding future developments and their potential market impacts. Rob introduces the concept of "tail risks":

"Katie, you give me a wonderful opportunity to roll out my favorite Wall street cliché, which is tail risks... the probability of a 10% or greater increase in the price of oil is 17%, which is a much thicker tail than you usually." [10:59]

Katie expands on this by outlining two primary scenarios:

1. Oil Prices Spike: Potential rise to $120 a barrel due to escalated actions, forcing central banks to grapple with rising inflation and interest rates.
2. Oil Prices Stabilize: Return to lower oil prices, indicating minimal impact from the conflict.

"So this is the difficult thing for investors and for the rest of us is that we're sort of staring down the barrel of this world where the oil price could go crazy or it could do nothing." [09:15]

---

5. Central Bank Responses and Economic Implications

The discussion moves to the challenges central banks face amid fluctuating oil prices. An oil price shock can simultaneously slow economic growth and increase inflation, putting central banks in a tough spot:

"An oil shock both slows growth and increases inflation. Right. So you're getting it from both ends of your mandate." [13:30]

Rob notes the dilemma for the Federal Reserve:

"The American central bank is getting it from both sides of its mandate and they have a problem on their hands." [13:47]

---

6. Shifts in Safe-Haven Assets and Currency Dynamics

Katie observes subtle shifts in safe-haven assets and currency preferences:

• Gold: Near record highs at $3,390, signaling investor nervousness.

  "Gold has overtaken the euro as the second most important reserve asset for central banks." [15:04]

• U.S. Dollar: Contrary to traditional flight-to-safety patterns, the dollar isn't experiencing significant upticks.

  "Holders of those assets are not nervy, but maybe it's because some of the use of fear as a driving force in pushing the dollar and US Government bonds higher has reduced recently." [14:43]

• Euro and Swiss Franc: Increasing roles as reserve currencies and safe-havens respectively.

  "There is something going on here. We've strayed away from oil and into the dollar, but these things are going on at the same time." [16:29]

---

7. Longshot Foreign Segment

In a lighter segment, Katie and Rob share their "Long" picks:

• Rob Armstrong: "I am Long New York City Pizza Katie." [19:52]
  Celebrates the superior quality of NYC pizza compared to the West Coast.

• Katie Martin: "I am Long Trump mobile." [20:35]
  Endorses the bold marketing strategy of Trump-branded luxury phones.

---

8. Conclusion and Upcoming Developments

Katie wraps up by mentioning the upcoming Federal Reserve decision and the retirement of the U.S. due to Juneteenth:

"We will be back on Tuesday. Until then, again, it's muggy out there. Stay cool. Choose light fabrics." [21:11]

---

Key Takeaways:

• Oil Market Resilience: Despite heightened geopolitical tensions, oil prices remain relatively stable compared to past conflicts, primarily due to increased U.S. production.

• Uncertain Future: Investors face a binary outcome where oil prices could either spike dramatically or remain stable, complicating investment strategies.

• Central Bank Challenges: Potential oil price increases could force central banks to navigate conflicting mandates of controlling inflation and maintaining growth.

• Shift in Safe-Havens: Traditional flight-to-safety assets like the U.S. dollar are less responsive, with gold and euros gaining prominence.

• Investor Preparedness: While markets show resilience, underlying nervousness is evident through assets like gold and the Swiss franc.

---

This episode of Unhedged provides a nuanced analysis of the Israel-Iran conflict's implications for global markets, highlighting both the resilience and underlying vulnerabilities within the current financial landscape.

Transcript

[PGIM Representative]

At pjum, we actively manage risk today while targeting outperformance tomorrow. So no matter what investment risks concern you most. From geopolitics to inflation to liquidity, PGM brings disciplined risk management expertise that spans 30 market cycles. Our active approach finds opportunities and volatility, helping our clients to navigate risk and achieve their long term goals. Pjum, our investments shape tomorrow today.

[Katie Martin]

Pushkin, you don't need to be a super smart geopolitical strategist these days to see that the situation in the Middle east is pretty grim. It's all very fluid stuff is changing quite quickly and we humble markets monkeys of the Unhedged podcast know our limits. We are not here to give you a read on what happens next between Israel, Iran and the us. What we can do though, is unpack what this all means for the global economy and for global markets. Is that all more important than the human lives at risk here? Obviously not. But geopolitical shocks, especially in the Middle east, can have ripple effects to jobs, livelihoods and prosperity around the rest of the world. And that's the bit that we can help you understand today on the show. We're all freaking out. Why are the markets not freaking out? This is Unhedged, the Markets and Finance podcast from the Financial Times and Pushkin. I'm Katie Martin, a markets columnist here at FT Towers in quite hot and stuffy London. Finally shaking off my hot and stuffy cold. And I'm joined down the line from New York City by fellow markets monkey, Alpha primate of the Unhedged newsletter, Ranger Rob Armstrong. Rob, stop that.

[Rob Armstrong]

That was my alpha monkey noise.

[Katie Martin]

I gather from the last podcast that you were long short shorts.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yes.

[Katie Martin]

So if it's not too personal a question I would like to ask you, are you sporting short trousers today?

[Rob Armstrong]

No, I have big boy pants on right now. I do not. I'm not a shorts at work kind of a person. Shorts are for the weekend and the weekend only.

[Katie Martin]

Where do you stand on linen suits?

[Rob Armstrong]

I don't like wrinkles. I like linen in principle, but in practice it seems like a lot of ironing and you'd like have to take an iron to work to do a quick midday ironing.

[Katie Martin]

You're possibly overthinking this.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah. So no. The answer is no on linen suit.

[Katie Martin]

It's a relief for us all. Now our vibe, right, our whole thing on this podcast is kind of loose, kind of light hearted, very markets focused. I just want to state for the record that we are not terrible people. We care about what's going on in.

[Rob Armstrong]

The Middle east, obviously, the important thing about this situation is the civilians who are caught in the crossfire here and the people of Iran and the people of Israel are. What matters here is the human beings. We are a tiny little sideshow to that, which is called what does this mean for markets?

[Katie Martin]

Yeah. And markets are like very dispassionate. Right. They don't care about your feelings. They sort of, in a way, don't care about humans.

[Rob Armstrong]

They don't care if you live or die. Yeah. In most cases.

[Katie Martin]

Yep. So listeners don't judge us, but we're going to get stuck in. So matters have gone from bad to worse between Israel and Iran. There are rockets flying in both directions. What has the market reaction been, Rob?

[Rob Armstrong]

Well, the most striking thing is that oil hasn't moved very much. It's moved a bit, it's jiggled around. Let me call up an oil price chart here. I should have this in front of me.

[Katie Martin]

I can save you the bother.

[Rob Armstrong]

Okay, please save me the bother.

[Katie Martin]

There was a big jump in the price of oil, which is pretty much what you would expect from an escalation of Middle east tensions because Iran is an oil producer. So the price rushed higher, like by 12%. But it's calmed down a lot since then. And we're still now only at about $73 a barrel for Brent. That's higher than it was, but it's the highest since, ooh, April. Like, it's not a huge move. And if you compare it to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 20, then you saw oil go to $110 a barrel, like in a pretty straight line. And that was much more dramatic. Now, you know, I'm old enough to remember that tension with Iran was one of those things that had a really meaningful impact on oil prices. Like why is that just not happening now in that old school way?

[Rob Armstrong]

There is a bunch of reasons, and the most important is probably that since we were wee little market analysts in the 1970s.

[Katie Martin]

Speak for yourself, Armstrong.

[Rob Armstrong]

The United States has emerged as the global energy superpower. I mean, these, every time I look at these numbers, they amaze me. So let's look at top producers of oil worldwide. United states, this is 2023. This is from the Energy Information Administration of the United States. 22 million barrels a day. United States, that's more than a fifth of the world total. And it's twice as much as Saudi Arabia. I mean, I just can't get my head around that. America produces not only more oil than Saudi Arabia, way More oil, to say nothing of Iran, with 4% of the world supply coming from Iran. So 4% matters. If that 4% disappears from the world market, that price is going to move. But, you know, this ain't the 70s. And on the natural gas side, the stats are roughly analogous. America, the world leader, and the rest of the world kind of bringing up the tail.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah. Now, as we chat here on Tuesday afternoon, the other thing is that Iran's still pumping, right? Correct. So it's not as important a part of the global market as it once was. And right now, who knows if this will still be true by the time the podcast runs, but it's still flowing. Right. So again, that just means that there's just not that much reason to really panic.

[Rob Armstrong]

This is an area where I will plead ignorance. A dynamic that I simply don't understand is that the Israelis and the Iranians seem to be having this war in which there is a tacit agreement about how far each side will go. And I don't know how that works out or what the rules of that are, and when each side breaks the tacit agreement or whatever. Totally above my pay grade. But one part of the agreement seems to be that Israel has decided it will attack Iran's domestic energy infrastructure. In other words, it will make it a pain for Iranians to get a hold of Iranian gasoline and Iranian oil. They will not attack the export facilities, most prominently on this place called Kharg island, which is where most of the Iranian oil comes out of. And what a lot of people said to me when I was trying to call around and figure out what was going on in the last couple of days is if Israel decides it will attack those facilities, the export facilities, then the war has reached a very, very different level, because then you're just cutting off the economic lifeblood of the country. And it's an existential issue for Iran. Right. And then who knows what the Iranians will do in response. They are totally unrestrained at that point because they have nothing to lose.

[Katie Martin]

The other thing that Iran can do is shut the Strait of Hormuz. Right. Which would be kind of putting a cork in a lot of global energy supply. Again, at the time that we're recording this, this is not the case right now. So for now, that's there.

[Rob Armstrong]

That's their side of the things they've decided not to do.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

Israel is implicitly saying, we're not going to destroy your export facilities. Iran is implicitly saying, we're not going to mine the stray of Hormuz. Which then gets everybody involved. And it's a big, hairy, nasty, unpleasant regional conflict rather than a war between Iran and Israel, which is serious enough. But if you get the Saudis involved, hoo, boy, you know, it's on.

[Katie Martin]

Then it's a whole different kettle of fish. But for now, for as long as you've got oil trading in the kind of low 70s on the Brent benchmark. So we did have, just like we had the spike in the oil price when things first got really hairy recently, we did see a bit of a step back in stock markets globally, but again, nothing too dramatic, really. So if you look at markets, you really wouldn't know there was anything happening here most of the time.

[Rob Armstrong]

And this is part of a larger phenomenon that we come around to is the incredible resilience of global equity markets in the face of first the trade war and. And now a war in the Middle East. The dip is just getting bought in most cases, regardless. And there's a kind of general question to ask is whether that is a phenomenon of euphoria or rationality.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

And I bet I know which side you're on, Katie.

[Katie Martin]

No, you bet wrong. I am fully in the I don't know how this is gonna pan out camp, but I do know if you look at some of the analysis from. From investment banks, you can sketch out a world where the oil price rockets to, like, $120 a barrel, depending on what kind of clampdowns come from, from both sides of this conflict, from the Iranian side and from the Israeli side. But you can also sketch out a world in which we fall back to the even lower 70s, and it's really like nothing has happened. So that's the difficult thing for investors and for the rest of us is that we're sort of staring down the barrel of this world where the oil price could go crazy or it could do nothing. And markets are all about uncertainty and not having perfect vision of the future. But that seems quite binary and quite scary and not a perfect time for markets, given that we've already got lots of other bits of uncertainty out there. So this is very unhelpful for investors.

[Rob Armstrong]

Katie, you give me a wonderful opportunity to roll out my favorite Wall street cliche, which is tail risks. Just saying that phrase makes me feel like I'm a smart person. Oh, you gotta think about the tail risks.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

And, you know, the gag here is. Yeah, the central case is that this remains a contained regional conflict and everybody gets talked down off the ledge and nothing really happens. But if one of the things we described earlier starts happening. Mining of the Strait, bombing of Carg island, regional conflagration. Then suddenly you have a tail event again. Robert feels smart because he said the word tail event. And so a reader of the column, Michael Chin of Allocation Strategies, sent me a really interesting chart, which is a chart of the options, implied probabilities of a big jump in the oil price. And he reckons on the basis of his work on options, that the probability of a 10% or greater increase in the price of oil is 17%, which is a much thicker tale than you usually. So 1 in 5 chance. Basically, the market is saying we're going to see a pop somewhere here of 10 bucks or more. And if you go up 10 bucks all at once, I guess it's probably worth talking about, though, Katie, why the oil price did go up so much in the Ukraine war, the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And that did seem to have a.

[Katie Martin]

Big effect on the price because Russia is such a huge supplier, particularly monster Europe, or at least was. And we're still working through that process of figuring out how Europe can survive long term without Russian oil. I mean, there is a reasonable possibility that the oil price just kind of roofs it one day and heads up to 110, $120.

[Rob Armstrong]

And then we have a shotgun. And then we have a shotgun. And then central banks around the world have to give it a think. Right. If suddenly the oil price is much higher. Oil and inflation are famously connected, and it's debated territory exactly how central banks should respond to oil price shocks. But they gotta start thinking, because if people start. If inflation expectations start to take off in the face of a much higher oil price and people start getting jumpy, then you're in a bad situation as a central banker or indeed as a human being.

[Katie Martin]

Yep, yep.

[Rob Armstrong]

And some. I should note, by the way, that some central bankers are also human beings.

[Katie Martin]

Some of them, but yes, some of.

[Rob Armstrong]

Them anyway, because an oil shock both slows growth and increases inflation. Right. So you're getting it from both ends of your mandate.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah.

[Rob Armstrong]

Central banker is supposed to keep employment high and keep inflation low.

[Katie Martin]

Well, the American ones are, anyway.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, The American one is. So suddenly, if you have an oil price shock, the American central bank is getting it from both sides of its mandate and they have a problem on their hands.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah, not helpful. Because all things being equal, that means higher inflation, which means higher interest rates, which is very much against the run of play. So the oil price is not screaming in alarm here, but if you look at other bits of the markets, you can see some quite interesting patterns. So I will come back to my favorite point, which is that the dollar and US Government bonds are not really responding in a kind of nervy way right now. Maybe that's because holders of those assets are not nerv, but maybe it's because some of the use of fear as a driving force in pushing the dollar and US Government bonds higher has reduced recently.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah. So the flight to safety trade, your view is that the flight to safety trade in the dollar and dollar assets is not what it once was?

[Katie Martin]

No, it's a little bit different because you can see some signs of nerves. Like if you look at gold, it's up a bit. The prices near records were about $3,390.

[Rob Armstrong]

That's just an amazing price.

[Katie Martin]

We had a really interesting big read on our pages just the other day from Ian Smith and Leslie Hook about how gold has overtaken the euro as the second most important reserve asset for central banks. So big holders of kind of government or quasi government money around the world do appear to be edging out of the dollar and putting a lot more of that to work in gold instead as a kind of safe hidey hole.

[Rob Armstrong]

Bloomberg had a news story the other day that struck me, Katie, which was, it was basically an interview with a currency trader at a big bank. And you know what currency traders do a lot at big banks is they help importers settle their accounts when they bring stuff into the United States. And this banker was saying, more and more of my importers don't want to settle their trades in America in dollars. They want to settle in euros or in Chinese currency or whatever. And this is a big change. Now these stories are slightly a dime a dozen in the sense that banker says thing, you know, it's anecdotal evidence. But I was still, I was struck by the color of that, that there is something going on here. We've strayed away from oil and into the dollar, but these things are going on at the same time. We have a disturbance in the oil universe at a time when things were already changing in the dollar universe. And so the way they interact is particularly interesting right now.

[Katie Martin]

Yeah, there has been a disturbance in the force. I think we are going to see the Euro playing a much bigger role in global trade from here. But also, if you're looking for signs that markets are a little bit nervous and the oil price is not doing it for you, you have got gold that's up near record highs. You've got the Swiss franchise which shot up around the liberation day. Super crazy US Tariffs announcements at the beginning of April and it stayed up. So the Swiss franc is one of those currencies that people really like to buy and hold when they're nervous about stuff. So it's there. Markets are kind of nervous. And I think investors have got themselves to the place where if things go really pear shaped really quickly in Iran, then they can jump on that, they're kind of, they're ready. But right now there's just no reason to really freak out, which I know is kind of, again, very humane in some way. Yes, yes. But that's markets for you, I'm afraid.

[Rob Armstrong]

This is the business we've chosen, Katie Godfather.

[Katie Martin]

This is the business we've chosen. So who would want to be Jay Powell in this situation?

[Rob Armstrong]

Yeah, that's a great chairman of the Fed.

[Katie Martin]

You know, we've got a race decision coming up from the Fed a little bit later this week. The other day, Donald Trump called Jay Powell a numbskull for not cutting interest rates as quickly or as hard as he would like.

[Rob Armstrong]

Yes. To which Jay Powell responded, sticks and stones may break my bones.

[Katie Martin]

So na na na na na. Very dignified silence from the Fed on this. And really, what can you say to that?

[Rob Armstrong]

I can tell you what Jay Powell is going to say at his press conference later this week. Some intrepid reporter is going to raise their hand and said, there's a war on. The oil price is scaring people a little bit. It could go up at any time. What are you going to do? And the summary of what big game Jay Powell is going to say is we're going to watch this situation very closely.

[Katie Martin]

Yes. And the question from the journalist is also going to be, Donald Trump says you're a numbskull. What do you say to that?

[Rob Armstrong]

Are you in fact a numbskull?

[Katie Martin]

What do you say? I know you must get asked this a lot. Maybe you could give him some tips on what to say.

[Rob Armstrong]

Deny, deny, deny.

[Katie Martin]

We live in extremely childish times and very much along those lines. We will be back in just a little moment with Longshot Foreign.

[PGIM Representative]

So is all the credit PGYM Fixed Income's monthly podcast series. From the latest trends to long term perspectives, you'll get timely fixed income insights from leading economists, research analysts and investment professionals. Whether you're new to bonds or a seasoned investor, tune in to all the credit wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is intended solely for professional investor use. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

[Katie Martin]

Okey doke. Listeners, it's time for Long Short. That part of the show where we go long a thing we love or short a thing we hate. Rob, what you got?

[Rob Armstrong]

I am Long New York City Pizza Katie. Oh, my wife had a bunch of her friends in town from the west coast and sometimes in New York because we're spoiled, we forget how good the pizza is here. But we ordered from our local Luigi's and we had pizza and these friends from California were in ecstasy and how much better the pizza is here than out there. I've never seen four happier people in my life. So we still got it.

[Katie Martin]

Was there lots of Lady Petrel involved in this gathering of friends? Lady Petrel, Lady Petrol is like cheap booze.

[Rob Armstrong]

Oh, yeah, I'm Long Lady Petrol too.

[Katie Martin]

I am Long Trump mobile. You know, these $500 gold phones, I just, I, you know, just lay it all out there. I just, I, I admire it and I think anything that people can do to advertise their Trump fanboy or fangirl credentials makes them easier to identify and either avoid or cozy up to, depending on your worldview. So I'm all in favor of people waving around ridiculous gold phones with Trump written on them.

[Rob Armstrong]

Strongly agree.

[Katie Martin]

Strong agree. Now, listeners, we are not going to be back in your ears on Thursday because the US is out for Juneteenth, the annual celebration and commemoration of the end of slavery. Americans, enjoy your holiday. Everyone else, we will be back on Tuesday. Until then, again, it's muggy out there. Stay cool. Choose light fabrics. Unhedged is produced by Jake Harper and edited by Bryant Urstadt. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. We had additional help from Toper Forges. Cheryl Brumley is the FT's global head of audio. Special thanks to Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, Greta Cohn and Natalie Seidler. FT Premium subscribers can get the Unhedged newsletter for free. A 30 day free trial is available to everyone else. Just go to ft.com/unhedged offer. I'm Katie Martin. Thanks for listening.