Danish minister: Here's how we controlled immigration

Summary

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UnHerd with Freddie Sayers

Episode Title: Danish minister: Here's how we controlled immigration
Guest: Carsten Duvander (Former Danish Immigration Minister)
Date: February 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and in-depth interview with Carsten Duvander, former Danish Immigration Minister (2022-2025), now Denmark’s Employment Minister. Host Freddie Sayers explores Denmark’s unique approach to immigration—particularly the Social Democrats’ tough, restrictionist stance—unusually found on the political left. The conversation covers Denmark’s integration policies, asylum laws, efforts to combat ghettoization, and the broader lessons for other Western democracies facing immigration crises.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Why a Centre-Left Party Supports Restrictive Immigration (03:17–04:09)

• Duvander argues that unchecked migration disproportionately impacts working- and middle-class communities, the bedrock of the Social Democratic voter base.
  • Affluent areas benefit from cheap labor, while less wealthy areas feel “the burden of integrating people who are coming from abroad.”
  • The party’s stance is about protecting “…some of those communities, some of those people, from the negative sides of uncontrolled migration.”

“Our analysis from start was that working class communities are more hurt by uncontrolled migration.”
— Carsten Duvander, 03:17

• Historically, left-wing parties were skeptical of migration, but this switched when the focus shifted from labor migration to asylum seekers.

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2. Denmark’s Asylum and Return Policy (05:19–07:43)

• Denmark’s formula is strict: only those with proven asylum claims (i.e., fleeing personal persecution) or on a valid work scheme can stay.
  • Anyone else, especially those deemed ‘economic migrants,’ is denied.
  • This has led to a notable reduction in asylum applications.

“No one can apply spontaneously for asylum…and still stay in Denmark because you don’t have that opportunity. You return to your home country, and that has resulted in a large drop in number of people seeking asylum.”
— Carsten Duvander, 06:02

• Denmark formalizes this as a “support and return” policy. Even temporary asylum (‘temporary protection’) comes with the expectation that return will follow once the home country is deemed safe, e.g., Syrians returning to Syria, sometimes with up to £80–90,000 per family as incentive.

• Duvander acknowledges most refugees are reluctant to return, as economic opportunity in Europe is a strong pull.

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3. Legal Challenges and Practical Impediments (07:43–08:35)

• Individual appeals and European-level regulations slow down deportations, particularly for families with children “attached to Danish society.”
• Denmark still moves to revoke permits; for instance, even long-term residents from “peaceful” Damascus lose their right to stay if the situation allows.

“We would revoke it. We have done it for series of cases from Damascus…We’re trying, of course, to say to a lot of the Syrians…they have the opportunity to go home.”
— Carsten Duvander, 08:35

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4. Cultural Values, Integration, and Testing (09:10–09:56)

• Permanent residency or citizenship require language proficiency, employment, and a clean criminal record—no direct ‘values-based’ or religious tests to stay.

  • Integration is assumed to occur through societal participation.
  • Duvander: “I think it would be impossible to make a state bureaucracy do that in a way that still has respect for legal procedures.”

• But messages are clear: if a person “think[s] that western society is immoral and doesn’t fit their way of life…they would have better opportunity to live that dream…in Syria.” (09:56)

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5. Denmark’s Policy vs. 'Remigration' (12:47–14:44)

• Sayers asks whether Denmark’s practice is akin to the far-right concept of ‘remigration’—a buzzword for returning migrants en masse.
• Duvander distances Danish policy:
  • Remigration “means that people who have permanent residency, who have citizenship…should be returned. We have nothing…close to that in our policy.”
  • The red line: if someone has gained citizenship, “that is a kind of sacred moment which you can’t go back from.”
  • Policies are strictly about legal status, not ethnicity or race.

“As I understand re migration, what it means is that people who have different ethnic, racial background…should be returned. And I think that is an obvious racist policy that we would never support.”
— Carsten Duvander, 14:15

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6. Preventing Ghettos and Promoting Assimilation (15:17–17:55)

• Denmark targets ‘ghettos’—high-immigrant, low-income housing estates—by:

  • Limiting non-Western residents to 30% in designated areas;
  • Requiring jobs or student status to move there;
  • Mixing public and private housing to foster integration.

• Results are mostly positive, with some areas seeing marked drops in unemployment and crime.

“With some areas, we’ve gone from 60% out of job to 21%. It’s really pulling in the right direction. Less crime, more people in education.”
— Carsten Duvander, 17:32

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7. Symbolic Integration—Mandatory Handshakes (17:55–20:16)

• New Danish citizens must shake hands during the official ceremony, regardless of religious background.
• Intended to enforce the principle of gender equality as a “fundamental value.”
• Sayers pushes on whether this is messaging or substance; Duvander is unequivocal: “If people think that their religious beliefs is more important than the fundamental values in the Danish society…they have to ask themselves if this is the right place to be.” (18:22)

“When you have the ceremony that gives you the citizenship...you have to shake a hand with the mayor...”
— Carsten Duvander, 18:22

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8. Impact and Efficacy of Denmark’s Policies (20:16–22:46)

• Asylum seeking has dropped from 21,300 in 2015 to 2,300 in 2024.
• Communication and “messaging” play a role: human smugglers now steer traffic away from Denmark to countries perceived as ‘softer’.
• For Duvander, the core is ensuring laws are enforced: those with no right to remain are returned, as a basic function of statehood, akin to obeying tax laws.

“To enforce legislation is the fundamental of a state...if you can’t control that then I think you have a larger problem.”
— Carsten Duvander, 21:41

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9. Responding to Critics and the Far-Right Surge (22:46–24:08)

• Some say the Social Democrats’ stance failed to stem far-right gains.
• Duvander disagrees: the Danish far-right polls at 8–9%, while Social Democrats are still in power—unlike much of northern Europe.
  • Cites having “listened to legitimate grievances” about immigration as the reason for the party’s success.

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10. Lessons for the UK and Other Countries (24:08–24:59)

• Duvander advises the UK to persist with effective deportation processes:
  • Due process for arrivals, but “if they are rejected they are also sent out of the country.”
  • “Stick to that policy even if you’re criticized from the left wing.”

“You need to make sure that everyone who’s coming to the UK knows that if it doesn’t have legal residency they don’t have a future here.”
— Carsten Duvander, 24:40

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Why tough immigration is a left-wing priority:
  “Working class communities are more hurt by uncontrolled migration.” (03:17)

• Clear legal boundary:
  “If you don’t follow those rules you should be forcefully sent out of the country.” (21:33)

• On citizenship as sacred:
  “If someone has been given a passport…that is a kind of sacred moment which you can’t go back from.” (13:57)

• On handshakes and values:
  “Gender equality is a fundamental value that we cannot compromise on, especially not for religious reasons.” (18:22)

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Major Takeaways

• Denmark’s Social Democrats have defied the usual left-right political divide by making restrictionist immigration policy a key left-wing tenet, with a rationale rooted in social equity.
• Strict enforcement, clear legal standards, and symbolic acts (like mandatory handshakes) are all part of Denmark’s strategy to both discourage ‘asylum shopping’ and encourage integration.
• The approach is controversial, but—according to Duvander—effective, both in policy outcomes and in maintaining voter trust.
• The Danish case offers a provocative model that challenges assumptions about immigration, integration, and the political spectrum in Western democracies.

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Transcript

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[Unherd Host]

Hello and welcome back to Unherd. What is the biggest political issue of the age? Well, obviously it's immigration and ask most people and they would say that is an issue of the right. It obsesses right wing political parties around the western world. But there is one exception and that is Denmark. Because there a party of the centre left, the Social Democrats, have become quite famous for having instituted restrictionist, quite hard line policies around immigration, asylum and integration. So are there lessons for us all to be learnt from this small Scandinavian country? Well, happily the man who was immigration minister throughout 2022 to just recently in 2025, really the author of many of those policies that people talk about is here in London and he's sitting right next to me in the studio. His name is Carde Bier.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yes, exactly.

[Unherd Host]

Welcome to Unherd.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Thank you.

[Unherd Host]

You can discover more of these kind of conversations with an Unherd digital subscription. You get 12 weeks of unlimited digital access to unmissable articles from all of our writers such as Kathleen Stark, Glenn Lowry, Wolfgang Munshau, Yiannis Varoufakis and many more for just £12. As a subscriber you can also watch exclusive weekly events here at the Unherd Club and read more in depth subscriber only investigations and deep dives. Not only that, we'll send you a free limited edition JG Fox Illustrated mug which features a port punk protesting against offensive speech which I hope you notice is ironically capturing our mission here at UNHERD which is to serve as a home for those still willing to speak their minds. Go to unherd.com podcast to claim this offer now. So explain for our audience then, how is it that you can represent a party of the centre left but feel like restricting immigration and asylum is a good thing to do?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Well, it is because most of migration history, the local communities that have experienced the burden of integrating people who are coming from abroad are usually working class communities, middle class communities, while people in affluent areas have usually gained a lot of possibilities from having a large and uncontrolled migration. So they would have easier access to cheaper access to transport, to cleaning, to other services. So our analysis from Start was that working class communities are more hurt by uncontrolled migration. And as being a party that needs to represent also skilled unskilled workers, people from the middle class, then we thought it was very important that we also protected some of those communities, some of those people, from the negative sides of uncontrolled migration.

[Unherd Host]

So you actually think it should be a left wing or a center left priority?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yeah, and it used to be if you went back to the 60s and 70s in Western European countries, you'd have social democratic Labour parties being opposed to migration, while you have center right parties proposing it. So it's really a shift that's happened when you went from work migration to refugees. So that was when the left became the proponent of higher migration to a country. And I think that we need to take care of fundamentally some of the people who bear the burden and make sure that they have the same opportunity in their local communities as people in more affluent areas.

[Unherd Host]

Have you talked there about refugees? Obviously a lot of the policies you've done are geared towards asylum in particular, because that is a big wave, a big part of the wave of immigration. In fact, the Prime Minister Mehrt Fredikson, set out a zero asylum goal a few years ago in in 2019. What has Denmark done to push back against some of the incoming asylum seekers and how effective has it been?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Well, first of all, we made sure that everyone who doesn't have legal residency in Denmark are returned to the country of origin. So we fundamentally said to everyone who's coming, if you have a real asylum claim, if you are refugee, personally prosecuted in your home country, or if you're coming and work scheme, for example, then you can stay in our country. But if you're coming, coming, claiming to be refugee, but being a work migrant, then you're rejected from our country. And that is a large proportion of the people who are arriving in Europe that really isn't refugees, but are coming to seek economic opportunities. And what we're saying is that those people should apply by the rules and we return everyone. No one can apply spontaneously for asylum, not be an asylum seeker and still stay in Denmark because you don't have that opportunity. You return to your home country, and that has resulted in a large drop in number of people seeking asylum.

[Unherd Host]

And you actually make that the explicit kind of policy. You call it a support and return policy. So the idea is if, even if someone temporarily stays as an asylum seeker, the goal long term is for them to go home. That is the official policy of the Danish government.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yeah, exactly. And now we're trying to look at the Syrian group of refugees that came approximately 10, 11 years ago and to see how can we make a return of them to Syria now when the country is, for the larger part at least, peaceful. And what we do is fundamentally say that people get some of money, that they can build a small business or give other opportunities. How much it's around for family, it would be around 80, £90,000. So that's something that you can use for creating a future in the country that you came from. And also, I think it's sensible to say that people who flee for a country because of a civil war need to go back to their country also to help rebuild that country. So if I, as a Dane, fled to the UK because there was a civil war in Denmark, I would think that it would be very natural for me to return to Denmark to help rebuild the country I was attached to.

[Unherd Host]

So how many people have you sent home in this way or paid to go home?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

There's a few thousands, but we have a lot of cases pending. But. But also, to be honest, most people want to stay because of the opportunity in the European economy and the labor market. So, of course, even if it's a high amount that people get, it's still a minority that wants to return, because.

[Unherd Host]

That'S the challenge, isn't it? You can have that policy, but every individual case, at least that's the experience here in the UK will get snared up in the courts. They will appeal, and you end up spending huge amounts of money and half of them or most of them never go.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yeah. And there are some restrictions as to when you can send people back. When are their children attached to Danish society? If they have their formative years in Denmark, then we are obliged also to let them stay. And then, of course, the parents can stay with them. So there are some Regulations also on the European level, that makes it a.

[Unherd Host]

Bit more difficult, but you're actually revoking permits of people. For example, you mentioned Syria. So if you come from Damascus and you got a residence permit 10 years ago, even though you've been there for 10 years, you may have been very successful. Any number of outcomes. You would still revoke someone's right to stay in Denmark.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yeah, we would revoke it. We have done it for series of cases from Damascus, especially when it was peaceful in the northern part of Syria, was still in civil war. But we're trying of course to say to a lot of the Syrians who are in Denmark for temporary protection that, that they have the opportunity to go home. We also think that if you're not comfortable in Danish society, if you don't think that gender equality is important, if you don't think that women should work in the labor market, if you think that you should have more Islamic values, then maybe you have better opportunity of fulfilling that life in Syria than you have in Denmark.

[Unherd Host]

So are there tests that people have to do to check if they are integrating properly or if they have kind of taken up the values of their new country?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

No, there's of course requirements. If you want to have either permanent residency or citizenship, then you should pass different language tests, you should be with no criminal record, you should have been in job for series of months. Yes, but not to stay. You don't need any particular test. But if you want, I mean in.

[Unherd Host]

Terms of values, how can you tell whether someone believes in Sharia law or is still living under a kind of Islamic code of society? How can you practically find that out and make the decision whether they should be able to stay?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

No, we can't do that. And I think it would be impossible to make a state bureaucracy do that in a way that still has respect for legal procedures. But I just think that if people feel that way, if they think that western society is immoral and doesn't fit their way of life, then I think it's a bad decision to stay here. Then they would have better opportunity to live that dream. For example, in Syria, at Philip Morris.

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[Unherd Host]

This sounds a little bit like a remigration. This. Well, it's interesting because you hear that word bandy de radit's kind of associated with parties of the hard right. And yet what you're talking about is essentially re migration. It's a policy of encouraging by paying people quite a lot of money to go back to where they came from. What is the difference between remigration and what Denmark is doing?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Well, I think it's a difficult question to answer because the people who are proposing remigation never really get concrete around what they think remigration is. But if we take sort of the general understanding of remigration, it is to say that people who have permanent residency who have citizenship in Western countries but have African Middle Eastern descent, that they should be returned to their country. So if you ask the general person supporting re migration, what does it mean? Then they say everyone who's not from my ethnic group or in a broader sense European ethnic group, they should be returned. We have nothing that is by any means close to that in our policy, everyone who has a foreign background, who's from African country, Asian country, can live in Denmark if they live up to certain standards.

[Unherd Host]

So for you, the big kind of division line then is this point about if they've been given a passport that is a kind of sacred moment which you can't go back from. But even a long term or semi permanent work permit or residence permit can be revoked. Is that the red line?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

I think the dividing line is if you're accepting people in a country that has other ethnic backgrounds, because as I understand re migration, what it means is that people who have different ethnic, racial background, for example from the Middle east or Africa, that they should be returned. And I think that is an obvious racist policy that we would never support.

[Unherd Host]

That's the ethnic component that you.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yes, of course.

[Unherd Host]

Even questions of cultural assimilation are legitimate for you. It's a fair question to ask.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

I think that there should be certain very fixed criteria that you should apply to. And if you live up to those criteria, then you should be able to have for example a permanent residency in country and to fit into those criteria, to meet them. It really doesn't matter if you're from Tunisia, you're from Iran or other countries. It's only about the certain criteria. So it's a rule of law and it's basing your society and the procedures on rights for the individual.

[Unherd Host]

The other thing that your government has done that's really kind of brought attention is been very strong on the question of assimilation and trying to avoid these so called ghettos which you have in places like Sweden and you might argue here in the UK parts where immigrant communities pretty much stick to themselves and are almost like a miniature country within a country in some of these cities or suburbs. What has Denmark done to try and avoid that happening?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Yeah, we have these, especially from the 60s, concrete slab buildings, which has been both social and integrational problems there. A lot of people out of work, a lot of people doesn't have education, a lot of crime. Also high percentage of people coming from abroad. So if you have an area of 10,000 people where 77% has non Western background, then it's difficult to integrate into Danish society. It's difficult to understand what norms, what culture do we have in this country, how do we solve conflicts, how do we react to other persons, what kind of rules are between public authorities in the normal everyday life. You cannot learn that if majority of people living in your district are from abroad. And that's why we say we want to change, make more private property in these areas. And we want more public housing in more affluent areas to make this mix so that people are really integrated into our country.

[Unherd Host]

So how does a local council actually do that in Denmark? So if Your target is 30% maximum in these areas, what do you do? If it gets to 40% or 50% or 60%, what happens? Do they told that they had to move?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

What most local councils do is that they make it mandatory to be in a job or also student to move into this area. So what we see is that when you have an opportunity to move there, if you have a regular job and these are usually low paid apartments, it's non profit apartments. And then usually we get a change in the population there. So more will be in jobs, less will be criminal, and also less will be with the ethnic minority background.

[Unherd Host]

And is it working?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

It's working in most areas, mostly for employment. It made a big difference with some areas. We've gone from 60% out of job to 21%. It's really pulling in the right direction. Less crime, more people in education. But also still for the ethnic part, it's a slower change.

[Unherd Host]

I think you've got some policies about integration that I think again would sound controversial in many social democracies, like for example, mandatory handshakes. How does that work? Because obviously some people from an Islamic background, if they're women, will say, I don't shake hands, it's not my culture. Whilst if you're in Denmark and you meet anyone from the government, you have to shake their hand. Is that true? How does it work?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

If you apply for Danish citizenship and if you live up to the criteria, then when you have the ceremony that gives you the citizenship, it's in the local council and you have to shake a hand with the mayor of the local council. We think that gender equality is a fundamental value that we cannot compromise on, especially not for religious reasons. And if people think that their religious beliefs is more important than the fundamental values in the Danish society, then I think they have to ask themselves if this is the right place to be.

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[Unherd Host]

So if you, if I refuse to shake hand at that kush moment, that's it. The citizenship is not completed.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

No, that's true.

[Unherd Host]

How much do you think it's sort of messaging? Because this has been effective, at least in terms of asylum seekers. As I understand it, they are down to a record low or low 40 year plus low numbers of asylum seekers. I'm looking at the numbers here, 21,300 at the peak in 2015, 2,300 in 2024. So that's like a tenth. Is that really a question of messaging that somehow it goes down the communication lines that Denmark is no longer a kind of friendly soft touch for asylum seekers so you're better luck trying your hand in France or in the UK or somewhere else?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Well, I think it is about measuring, but I don't think it's about the general understanding of the countries being soft or being tough on migration. I think it's about the concrete possibilities for staying if you don't have asylum claims. So human smugglers of course is selling a product which is access to European countries, European labor markets. And if they know that coming to Denmark or coming to Sweden, as it is now, coming to Norway doesn't give you the possibility of staying in that country and working, but coming to another European country or south would give that opportunity. Of course they would advise people to go to the countries where they could still work. And I think that every country in Europe should apply the rules that we have. So to say we respect the democratic decisions that make the laws in this country. And of course when we make a law and certain criteria for having legal residency in this country, then of course if you don't follow those rules, you should be forcefully sent out of the country. I think to enforce legislation is the fundamental of a state. And the fundamental of a state is also to know who's inside our borders and who's not inside our borders. And if you can't control that Then I think you have a larger problem. And I think that we have the right to say I don't understand the criticism from the left when they say these people should stay anyway, but that's just curbing democratic decisions. What I'm saying is respect what we have passed as legislation in our parliaments. And if we want to respect that, then if you don't pay the taxes in UK and Denmark and Sweden, other countries, then at some point a police officer would be at your front door telling you to pay the taxes. Why can we think that is normal? While the same procedure for a person who doesn't have legal residency. That's inhuman. I don't understand the difference.

[Unherd Host]

Another left wing argument that you hear a lot, in fact I was reading an article in the Guardian today talking about the Danish example is that it hasn't worked because supposedly for a left wing party to be tough on immigration will kill the far right and will mean a surge of support from ordinary lower income voters. They say that if you look at Denmark, the far right is actually doing pretty well. The new Danish People's Party and so on are surging. So what do you say to that? That actually you've done this? It's a hot topic here in the UK because Keir Starmer is accused of kind of appeasing the right in order to win the political argument. They say it's not working for him. And it didn't work for you either.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

I'd say. We have published right parties polling around 8 to 9% at the moment, two different parties. We have seven years of social democratic government. I don't think there's any other northern European country that has this characteristic. I don't think that anyone achieved to have this curbing of the populist right. And I think that's of course because we've listened to some of the legitimate grievances that constituents have around uncontrolled migration. And I think if you look at almost every other country in northern Europe, you'd have a situation where the populist right is much larger and where you have a center right government.

[Unherd Host]

Final question for you. What is your message to the government here? Obviously that's not your job, but we're interested because they seem to be having a difficult time. When you look over at your friends in the uk, what are we doing wrong and what do you think we should do differently?

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Well, I think they should continue the good work to make an effective return. I think this is the one policy that any European country could implement and that makes a huge difference as to the migrant flow to a country. So make sure that everyone who arrives here get a legal due process, but if they are rejected they are also sent out of the country. And you need to make sure that everyone who's coming to the UK knows that if it doesn't have legal residency they don't have a future here. And I think that that's what the government is trying to do right now and are doing good work. But I think you just need to stick to that policy even if you're criticized from the left wing.

[Unherd Host]

Carla Du Verbeek, thank you for your time.

[Carsten Duvander (Danish Immigration Minister)]

Thank you.

[Unherd Host]

That was Carter Duvad Bick who has been Immigration Minister of Denmark for the past three years, 2022-25. He's now an Employment Minister but kind of amazing to hear him say some of that normally come from a party of the right, maybe even the populist right here or in other European countries. And there he's just very flatly saying this is a centre left policy. It is what people in our key demographic want and we're delivering on it and that's why we're still in power. Quite an interesting message for governments around Europe, I would have thought. Thanks to him, thanks to you for tuning in. This was unheard of.

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Before we had AT&T business wireless coverage, our delivery GPS wasn't the most reliable. Once our driver had to do a 14 point turn to get back on route. A 14 point turn. An influencer even livestream the whole thing. Not good for business. Now with AT&T business wireless routes are updating on the fly and deliveries are on time. And the influencer did get us 53 new followers though. AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything. The day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. At Boston Logan Airport you get the clam chowder. In San Diego, it's Tostadas New York. Espresso martini. It's 10am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight, the shower that resets your day, the menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire Lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.