UnHerd with Freddie Sayers

Episode Summary: "Ex-prisoner: The Islamist gangs inside our prisons"

Release Date: December 16, 2025 | Guest: Steve Gallant

Episode Overview

In this episode, Freddie Sayers hosts Steve Gallant, a former prisoner convicted of murder, who became nationally known for intervening in the 2019 London Bridge terrorist attack while on day release. The discussion delves into Gallant's personal path of rehabilitation, his direct experience with Islamist groups within UK prisons, and broader questions about whether true rehabilitation is possible for violent offenders and Islamist terrorists. Gallant shares rare inside perspectives on prison gang dynamics, radicalization, and the shifts in power structures that have led to the rise of Islamist networks on the inside.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Steve Gallant’s Journey: From Convicted Murderer to Recognized Hero

• Background:

  • Convicted of murder in 2005, sentenced to life with a 17-year minimum; served 16 years and 3 months after receiving a royal pardon for gallantry.
  • Early personal decision in prison to avoid violence and focus on self-education.
  • Eventually earned a business degree and formed relationships with academic initiatives like Learning Together from Cambridge University.
  • Notable quote:

    “I went to prison and I made some quite powerful decisions very early on... to educate myself.” (04:30, Steve Gallant)

• London Bridge Attack Involvement:

  • First day out of prison (on day release) coincided with the 2019 London Bridge attack by Usman Khan.
  • Recounts intervening in the attack using a narwhal tusk to help disarm Khan.
  • Received the Queen’s Gallantry Medal and early release as a result, but is mindful of the deaths of Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones, both victims at the scene.
  • Quote:

    “London Bridge was another random event of violence, but yet I was freed earlier for it... I can't forget that two people lost their lives.” (10:31, Steve Gallant)

2. Islamist Gangs and Radicalization Inside UK Prisons

a. Origins and Evolution

• Islamist prisoners began filtering into high security ("Cat A/high security") prisons after the 2005 London bombings.
• Early arrivals faced hostility and even violence (including arson attacks), but over time, their numbers grew, altering prison social dynamics.
• Quote:

  “Some of the most violent and dangerous men in the country are in those prisons… [Islamist prisoners] were dropped in amongst the general population.” (14:51, Steve Gallant)

b. Formation of Networks

• Islamist prisoners formed mutual support groups or “brotherhoods” across the high-security system—functions like a powerful, organized gang.
• These groups attracted new arrivals—whether for ideological reasons or for protection.
• Quote:

  “They will get food, they will get looked after... immediately they will band, they will get looked after.” (17:58, Steve Gallant)

c. Attacks and Counter-attacks

• Early on, Islamist inmates became targets, but as numbers grew, they retaliated, leading to cycles of violence.
• Prisoners convicted of sex offenses or other unpopular crimes could avoid hostility by converting and joining the Islamist group—motivated both by protection and a “fresh start” in religious terms.
• Quote:

  “People were offered to convert to Islam to join these groups... There’s a thing in Islam where if you... convert, all your previous sins are washed away.” (22:33, Steve Gallant)

d. Power Structure Disruption

• The established hierarchy (gangsters at the top; sex offenders and “grasses” at the bottom) was overturned as Islamist gangs grew in power and numbers.
• Some formerly marginalized prisoners (notably sex offenders) moved to the top if they converted and joined.
• Notable quote:

  “Suddenly, you had people who were at the bottom of the pile, at the top of the pile... They were untouchable because their Muslim brothers would protect them.” (24:07, Steve Gallant)

e. Cultural and Daily Life Clashes

• Differences in dietary need and religious observance led to conflicts (e.g., disputes in prison kitchens over halal food).
• Quote:

  “That was another area of conflict... You had a cultural clash on the prison landings amongst people who've got some very dangerous traits.” (25:36, Steve Gallant)

f. Systemic Growth and Entrenchment

• Islamist brotherhoods have become deeply entrenched and remain the “most problematic” force among prisoners.
• Quote:

  “The brotherhood is very well embedded now... They essentially have control... in terms of the population, they are the highest authority and the most problematic one, without a doubt.” (26:50, Steve Gallant)

3. Systemic Failures and Potential Solutions

a. Inadequate Institutional Response

• Prison authorities avoided confrontation with these groups, allowing their growth.
• Quote:

  “Managers, staff... took a backward step, didn’t go near it and let it flourish.” (27:08, Steve Gallant)

b. Separation Centres

• Recent use of “separation centres” to isolate ringleaders and recruiters—a positive step, but implemented too slowly and not robustly enough.
• Dilemma: Concentrating extremists in one place could facilitate further networking.
• Quote:

  “There has to be places where those who are spreading the ideology have to be isolated... I have been informed that even on these separation centers, they're allowed to interact, which for me is a bit crazy.” (28:13, Steve Gallant)

4. Release and Risk: The Case of Usman Khan

• Usman Khan, 2019 attacker, was released halfway through his sentence after his original indeterminate sentence was changed to a fixed one due to appeal.
• System failed to monitor or assess risk effectively; Gallant argues that current rehabilitation courses can be gamed by determined individuals.
• Quote:

  “You can just learn the keywords... and you can use that against the system. It’s very easy to do if you’re that way inclined. I think that’s what Usman Khan did.” (31:29, Steve Gallant)

5. Rehabilitation, Sentencing, and Prison Life

a. Is Rehabilitation Possible?

• Gallant is optimistic—citing his own experience and others who've reformed through education, taking responsibility, and positive social networks.
• The system, however, is not well designed to truly compel change—distractions and gang dynamics prevail.
• Quote:

  “The key thing for me was overcoming violence... For me, my key thing was overcoming the violence and I did that. So in that sense, I'm rehabilitated.” (41:31, Steve Gallant)

b. Short vs. Long Sentences

• Longer sentences may aid change by giving inmates time to “wake up” and reconsider life choices; short sentences are ineffective.
• Quote:

  “The longer the sentence, the more impact it seems to have... People who come out on life license... less than 1% reoffend.” (35:15, Steve Gallant)

c. Are Prisons Too Soft?

• Disputes the notion that UK prisons are “luxurious”; maintains basic human decency is crucial, but advocates strictness on violence, gang activity, mobile phone smuggling, and more emphasis on education.
• Quote:

  “I don’t think prisons are necessarily soft and they're certainly not luxurious. I've been to some horrific places.” (36:52, Steve Gallant)

d. Role of Gangs and Contraband

• Mobile phones are prevalent, allowing prisoners (including terrorists) to communicate externally, organize crime, and stronger gang control.
• Quote:

  “Phones just allow people to circumvent security. They can talk to people outside, they can organise all sorts of things.” (37:52, Steve Gallant)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Gallant on the London Bridge attack:

  “There’s someone stood next to me holding out a narwhal tusk and I just took it and I thought, right, let me take this guy on... I just need to stop him by any means possible.” (06:11–08:00, Steve Gallant)

• Gallant on the power shift inside prisons:

  "Suddenly, you had people who were at the bottom of the pile, at the top of the pile. They were untouchable because their Muslim brothers would protect them.” (24:07, Steve Gallant)

• Gallant on the failure to address the Islamist gangs:

  “Managers, staff... took a backward step, didn’t go near it and let it flourish.” (27:08, Steve Gallant)

• Gallant on true rehabilitation:

  “You have to face your demons... the problem is the system is not designed in that way. It doesn’t allow people to face up to their problems.” (33:53, Steve Gallant)

• Host summarizing the dangers:

  “It feels pretty urgent to do something about it. Why should there be an Islamist network that has power within our prison system?” (26:52, UnHerd Host)

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• 03:53–06:11 — Steve Gallant’s backstory and path to rehabilitation
• 06:11–10:10 — Detailed account of London Bridge attack intervention
• 13:34–26:50 — Islamist gangs: formation, growth, conversion dynamics, internal hierarchy
• 26:50–28:44 — Entrenchment and institutional response
• 31:29–33:20 — Can radicalized prisoners "game the system" and evade true rehabilitation?
• 33:53–36:28 — Rehabilitation of other prisoners and the efficacy of long vs short sentences
• 36:52–38:52 — Conditions inside prisons: are they “soft”, what allows gangs to flourish?
• 41:23–43:13 — Gallant’s post-prison life, limitations, and personal rehabilitation

Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, candid, and at times unsettling inside view of how Islamist networks have taken root and transformed the power structures inside UK prisons. Through Steve Gallant’s unique journey—from convicted murderer to celebrated public hero and advocate for prison reform—listeners gain insights into the complex realities of prison life, the real risks of radicalization, and the challenges of achieving true rehabilitation. The conversation leaves open urgent questions for policymakers about how to respond to the risks posed both inside and outside the prison system.