Podcast Summary: UnHerd with Freddie Sayers

Episode: Glenn Loury: Elon Musk’s Apartheid Politics
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Freddie Sayers (UnHerd)
Guest: Professor Glenn Loury

Episode Overview

In this episode, Freddie Sayers interviews Professor Glenn Loury, a renowned economist and social commentator, about his recent essay critiquing Elon Musk’s embrace of right-wing identity politics, specifically Musk's public comparisons between contemporary America and post-apartheid South Africa. The conversation explores the dangers of racial essentialism on both the left and right, the evolution of American conservatism, and the risks Musk's rhetoric poses to civil society and democratic institutions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elon Musk’s “Apartheid” Rhetoric and Social Media Influence

• Freddie Sayers opens with Musk’s recent tweets, highlighting statements where Musk endorses the idea that America is heading towards a South African scenario unless drastic action (like "remigration") is taken (03:32).
  • Musk agrees with claims that "white men will be slaughtered" if they become a minority, promoting "white solidarity."
• Main Concern:
  • Loury finds the tweets "alarming” due to Musk's massive influence and worries about the normalization of racially charged, apocalyptic rhetoric.
    • Quote: "It's Elon Musk. He's the world's wealthiest man. He has... an enormously influential platform. People listen to him... There’s a kind of essentialization that’s going on where you identify a problem in society, you see the demography, and you attribute the root of the problem to the demographics.” — Glenn Loury, 04:02

2. The “Category Error” of Comparing the US to South Africa

• Loury: Western countries like the US are "not South Africa." The institutions, traditions, and history differ fundamentally. It’s misguided to import racial fears specific to South Africa into the American context (04:02–05:54).
  • Quote: "Western Europe and... the United States... are not South Africa. These are well ordered constitutional republics..." — Glenn Loury, 04:02
• Sayers: Points out the irony of Musk, himself an immigrant from South Africa, “failing to assimilate as an immigrant,” by projecting his country of origin's racial anxieties onto America (12:03).
• Loury: "South Africa is a historical phenomenon of its own unique character... That’s a fact about South Africa, but it’s not a fact about the United States. Musk is making that category error.” (12:41)

3. Normalization of Identitarian Politics—From Left to Right

• Loury: The right’s embrace of identity politics is not just a backlash to the Woke left, but a full-on adoption of dangerous racial essentialism (06:27).
  • Initially, he viewed right-wing identity talk as mere backlash, but now sees a disturbing “convergence” with the left's methods.
  • Notes that even Jewish communities have begun to practice "robust" identity politics post-October 7, 2023, normalizing identitarianism at large.
  • Quote: "I didn’t see... the potential for many white people to... embrace identity mongering on their own account..." — Glenn Loury, 06:27

4. Failures of Leadership—Obama and the Conservative Movement

• Missed opportunity for a transcendent, non-racial approach during the Obama administration.
  • Quote: "An opportunity was missed by President Obama, the first African American to hold the highest political office... who might have adhered to a higher ground than in fact he did..." — Glenn Loury, 10:24
• On the right, current leadership lacks the high-minded, visionary quality needed to reject racial politics firmly (09:18–11:18).

5. The Shift in American Conservatism: The “Crack Up”

• Loury: Traces the evolution from Buckley-era “fusionism” (libertarian, hawkish, traditionalist) to today’s fractured conservative movement, where MAGA populism often overlaps with race-based identitarianism (20:36).
  • “Part of what [MAGA] seems to be becoming... is a kind of white identitarian reaction against diversity, equity and inclusion...”
  • The right’s internal fragmentation (“philosophical confusion”) has created a vacuum for these ideas to take hold.

6. Media Influence and the Dangers of Normalizing Racial Politics

• Musk’s ownership of X (Twitter) supercharges the impact of his rhetoric; ideas can shift the political "Overton window" and slowly erode taboos against racist appeals (19:05).
  • Quote: "The overt embrace of white solidarity ought to make our hair stand on end... It opens the door for a different kind of politics, a more chauvinistic, white-supremacist, frankly, politics.” — Glenn Loury, 19:05
• Importance of recognizing and calling out “deleterious” cultural trends without resorting to censorship.

7. Is a Racial Response Ever Justified?

• Freddie Sayers plays devil's advocate: If the left made it racial, mustn't the right respond in kind?
• Loury pushes back:
  • Argues firmly for universal, non-racial norms and against essentializing politics by race.
    • “Why are we parsing the population and dividing the polity in terms of race?... We should be reluctant to go against [liberal principles of universality] in reaction to political trends we don't like.” (25:35)
  • Proposes issues like immigration can be debated using cultural, linguistic, or civic criteria instead of race (27:18).

8. The Resilience—and Strain—of American Institutions

• Concerns:
  • Judicial independence, politicization of law enforcement, fragmentation between state and federal authorities—all “worrisome” (28:59).
  • Yet Loury believes the constitutional order’s record justifies cautious optimism.
  • Quote: “We’re under strain... but we’re the best bet we’ve got going. I’m worried but I’m not in despair, and I’m certainly not at the point of giving up on them” — Glenn Loury, 28:59

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of Musk’s endorsement:

  • “Ideas are the precursor to movements and politics, policies and politics that actually hit the ground. The overt embrace of white solidarity ought to make our hair stand on end." — Glenn Loury, 19:05

• On the comparison with South Africa:

  • “The United States is not South Africa... We do have the Constitution, we do have the courts... I don’t think it really requires a lot of effort to refute the association or identification of the United States racial history with South Africa’s...” — Glenn Loury, 17:27

• Looking to the future:

  • “I can't say with confidence that 10 years from now everything's going to be okay. I'm really worried about where the country is going, and in my own small little way, I'm trying to... sound an alarm.” — Glenn Loury, 31:00

Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:22] Introduction to Glenn Loury and setup of Musk’s tweets
• [04:02] Loury’s initial reaction to Musk’s tweets
• [06:27] Analysis of identitarian politics on the right and left
• [09:18] Why a non-identitarian “good backlash” never materialized
• [12:03] Are Musk’s views an “importation” of South African politics?
• [17:27] Why the US and South Africa are categorically different
• [19:05] Dangers of mainstreaming racial politics via influential platforms
• [20:36] The breakdown of fusionist conservatism and MAGA's rise
• [25:35] In-depth argument against racial essentialism as a political response
• [28:59] The strain and resilience of American institutions
• [31:00] Loury’s personal sense of urgency about current trends

Tone and Closing

The conversation, while measured and deeply analytical, is underscored by real concern. Loury, a lifelong advocate for transcending race in public life, strikes a sober, at times alarmed, note about the normalization of race-based thinking on both sides of the US political spectrum. Freddie Sayers, in keeping with UnHerd’s tradition, challenges Loury’s arguments robustly, ensuring the conversation includes meaningful counterpoints.

Final Words:
“Despite being the first tenured black professor at Harvard back in the 80s, [Loury] has never in his long career lent into race as a way of seeing the world... So to have him apparently so worried about what he’s seeing on the American right... should, I think, give us all pause.” — Freddie Sayers, 31:31