Orbán's defeat is not a liberal victory

Summary

UnHerd with Freddie Sayers: "Orbán's Defeat is Not a Liberal Victory"

Date: April 13, 2026
Host: Freddie Sayers
Guest: Aris Roussinos (UnHerd journalist and recent correspondent from Hungary)

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Episode Overview

This episode grapples with the seismic defeat of Viktor Orbán in the recent Hungarian parliamentary elections, unpacking both the immediate atmosphere and the deeper political currents at play. Host Freddie Sayers is joined by Aris Roussinos, fresh from on-the-ground reporting in Hungary, to interrogate what the opposition's (Tisza, led by Péter Magyar) victory truly signals – for Hungary, for European politics, and for the global right. The conversation challenges simplistic western narratives of a "liberal victory," highlighting the persistence of nationalist currents and the complex reality beyond headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Election Atmosphere – A Watershed Moment (01:28 – 05:53)

• Historic Scale of Defeat: Orbán's long-dominant Fidesz party was resoundingly defeated, with Tisza securing a two-thirds parliamentary majority—enough to effect major constitutional changes.

  "The numbers are just so eye-watering... It's a complete upending. They now will have a two thirds majority in that parliament, which means they can do far-reaching constitutional changes."
  – Freddie Sayers [01:57]

• Revolutionary Mood: In Budapest and across Hungary, the energy was "genuinely kind of revolutionary," reminiscent of the 1989 anti-communist upheaval.

  "People dancing on top of bus stops, streets full of cars blaring out, flags waving, people out chanting and dancing till well into the morning. Everyone I spoke to was celebrating and everyone said, it feels like 1989 again."
  – Aris Roussinos [03:56]

• Broad Coalition: Magyar’s support base spans both the young (who've only ever known Fidesz rule) and older, professional classes. Significant turnouts in regions considered strongholds of Fidesz suggest support extends beyond urban liberals.

  "There was a very strong Zuma contingent... But even the night before last, I was in Debrece, Hungary's second city... huge crowd there for Tisza... a lot of older people there as well."
  – Aris Roussinos [04:55]

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2. Is This a Liberal or Democratic Triumph? (05:53 – 08:29)

• Perception in the West: Western politicians (e.g., Obama, Starmer) hailed the result as a victory for democracy and liberalism.
• Reality: Not a Liberal Revolution:

  "Orban, he called it an illiberal democracy, but it is a democracy and it always was a democracy. And he did accept that [defeat]. Magyar... is a more authoritarian figure, I think, than Orban."
  – Aris Roussinos [06:55]

• Media Misreading: Despite Orban's dominance, the election was free, fair, and accepted. Magyar’s party operates with tight discipline, and he is the only authorized spokesperson.

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3. Who is Péter Magyar and What Changed? (12:54 – 15:15)

• Continuity Overrupture: Magyar is described as "Fidesz without their corruption." His roots and party networks stem directly from Fidesz.

  “He was described to me as a third tier apparatchik by one Fidesz insider... The Tea Party, at least initially, kind of propelled itself as more a reformist movement from within Fidesz than a liberal opposition to it.”
  – Aris Roussinos [12:54]

• Policy Positions:
  • EU Relations: Magyar is more open to Europe and promises greater cooperation to unlock EU funds—a key contrast with Orbán.
  • Immigration: In fact, Magyar is even more restrictive than Orbán, pledging to roll back work visas for migrants.
  • Russia and Energy: No realistic promise to rapidly shift away from Russian gas; timeline for change is a decade or more.

    "In terms of immigration, he's actually more restrictive than Orban... In terms of Russia, he said it will take a decade maybe to kind of wean Hungary off Russian gas."
    – Aris Roussinos [14:18]

• Bottom Line: Neither the left nor liberalism has triumphed; it's a right-wing, inward-looking project with a new, less corrupt face.

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4. The Role and Failure of Illiberalism and Corruption (15:15 – 19:21)

• Orban’s Project: Sought to create a “counter-elite” to the liberal “establishment” in judiciary, media, and academia—a “post-liberal” state empowered to act decisively in the national interest.
• Corruption as the Fatal Flaw:

  “What intellectually or politically actually had a kind of good rationale behind it in practice just turned out to be petty corruption... It was just a way of funneling funds to cronies. And that's something that Hungarians were very aware of and very resistant to.”
  – Aris Roussinos [17:07]

• Economic Weakness: Orbánomics failed to deliver broad prosperity, a contrast to the Law and Justice Party’s relative economic success in Poland.
• Lesson for the Right: Both muscular state intervention and imported right-populist models have failed to deliver in Hungary.

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5. Hungary’s Geopolitical Orientation: Europe vs. the East (20:25 – 22:55)

• Voters Rejected “MAGA Nationalism”: The association with Trump and the American conservative movement (e.g., CPAC Hungary, J.D. Vance’s campaign appearance) was viewed as alien by Hungarian voters.

  “It just felt strange and alien. And I think it felt just as strange and alien to Hungarian voters... The kind of crass vulgarity really of American conservatism and its fixation on issues that have nothing to do with Hungary.”
  – Aris Roussinos [22:14]

• Desire for European Integration: The electorate signals a strong desire to belong to 'European mainstream', both for values and material reasons.

  "Everyone I spoke to said, we are Europeans, we want to be closer within the European mainstream. We want European wages, we want European democracy, we want European values. We're not, we don't belong to the east, but also we're not Americans, we're not Trumpians."
  – Aris Roussinos [21:12]

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6. Lessons for the European and UK Right (22:55 – 27:01; 31:18 – 32:47)

• Populist Internationalism Doesn’t Travel: Attempts to forge an international populist right (inspired by left-wing globalism) keeps failing, especially across nationalist lines.

  “With nationalism particularly, there's always going to be this tension between seeking allies... and also the inherent tensions between different kind of... nationalist projects... ultimately nationalist projects are always going to kind of rub up against the age-old divisions of European nations.”
  – Aris Roussinos [25:04]

• Towards A “European Nationalism”: There is a potential for European right-wing collaboration, but grounded in the context and interests of distinct nations, not transatlantic populism.

  "There is space for a European right wing that is detached from the American populist right."
  – Aris Roussinos [26:36]

• The UK Context: Growing sense on the UK right of exploring a “European destiny” beyond EU membership, projecting British national interests within a broader continental framework.

  "Even on the right... there’s an increasing sense on the British right, even maybe on the younger British right, of Britain having a European destiny that isn't necessarily the same as being a member of the European Union, but of Britain, like Hungary, I guess, finding the means to kind of project its national will within the European framework."
  – Aris Roussinos [31:46]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Context | |-----------|------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:56 | Aris Roussinos | “Everyone I spoke to was celebrating and everyone said, it feels like 1989 again.” | | 06:55 | Aris Roussinos | “Magyar, it has to be said in some ways he's a more authoritarian figure, I think, than Orban...” | | 12:54 | Aris Roussinos | “Fidesz without their corruption. That's how one Fides insider phrased it to me.” | | 14:18 | Aris Roussinos | “In terms of immigration, he's actually more restrictive than Orban...” | | 17:07 | Aris Roussinos | “In practice... what [Orban’s nationalist project] meant was channeling... funds and state contracts towards his close political allies... it was just a way of funneling funds to cronies.” | | 21:12 | Aris Roussinos | “We are Europeans, we want to be closer within the European mainstream. We want European wages, we want European democracy, we want European values.” | | 22:14 | Aris Roussinos | “As an Anglophone conservative, basically going to this kind of Trumpian megachurch... it just felt strange and alien. And I think it felt just as strange and alien to Hungarian voters.” | | 25:04 | Aris Roussinos | “With nationalism particularly, there's always going to be this tension between seeking allies, local or international, and... the inherent tensions between different kind of... nationalist projects.” | | 26:36 | Aris Roussinos | “There is space for a European right wing that is detached from the American populist right.” |

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• [01:28] — Freddie Sayers opens the discussion about Orbán’s defeat, the election numbers, and the historical context.
• [03:43–04:55] — Roussinos describes the electrifying, cross-generational mood on Budapest’s streets.
• [05:53–08:29] — Deep dive: Was Orbán illiberal? Was the election a liberal victory, or just a democratic moment?
• [12:54–15:15] — Who is Péter Magyar? Analysis of his policy stances and relationship to Fidesz.
• [17:07–19:21] — Corruption and the economic failures of Orbán’s experiment; why this led to rejection.
• [21:12–22:55] — Hungary’s attitude toward Europe, Russia, and America; rejection of Trump-style populism.
• [23:28–27:01] — The difficulties of building a populist international; the rise of a distinct European right.
• [31:18–32:47] — Implications for the UK: where does this leave the British right and UK-Europe relations?

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Final Thoughts

The episode dismantles the assumption that Orbán’s defeat foretells a new liberal dawn for Hungary or Europe. Instead, it highlights the resilience—and evolution—of right-wing, nationalist politics, now oriented more towards European cooperation but maintaining core conservative values. The guest’s field reporting underscores widespread popular desire for less corruption and greater prosperity, not necessarily for liberal reforms. The discussion also warns the global right of the limitations of importing American-style populism and suggests Europe’s rightward drift is increasingly distinct and self-defined.

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For those seeking a nuanced understanding of post-Orbán Hungary, European nationalism, and the future of the continent’s right, this episode offers sharp analysis and first-hand insights from the streets of Budapest.

Transcript

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[Freddie Sayers]

Hello and welcome back to UnHerd. Momentous scenes last night in Budapest all over Hungary as the prime minister of 16 years, Viktor Orban, was resoundingly rejected in the latest parliamentary elections. Now in the news business, people are used to saying how momentous and historic events are. This really was momentous and historic because the numbers are just so eye watering. Right up until the day before the election, a lot of us were speculating in each direction about what the result would be. Despite the polls showing a lead for the opposition, there was this sort of innate suspicion of them because the grip that Viktor Orban has apparently had on that country has seemed so permanent that we all somehow expected to wake up on Monday morning with news that he pulled it off once again. But the numbers, just to share them with you, in terms of seats by party in the Hungarian National Assembly, 138 will be held by Tischa, which is the opposition party of Peter Magyar, and only 55 by Fidesh, which has been the ruling party for so long. So it's a complete upending. And they now will have two thirds majority in that parliament, which means they can do far reaching constitutional changes and really rapidly unpick a lot of the work that Viktor Orban has done over the last decade and a half. So it really matters not only for Hungary, not only for Europe, but really for conservatives around the world. We saw JD Vance getting on a plane and doing a, it's got to be said, ineffective, last minute little campaign stop for Viktor Orban. Reminded me a little bit of Hillary Clinton pulling in celebrities that were kind of clearly mismatched with her own electorate as a last minute plea to win. Not necessarily a good sign. And it didn't really work. But yeah, we're waking up with a very different world and happily we have the right person to help shed some light on what's really been going on. Because our very own Aris Roussinos has been in Hungary for the last month talking to people, reporting from the ground and trying to work out what's actually happening beyond the headlines. So welcome back to Unherd.

[Aris Roussinos]

Aris, great to be here. Hi, Freddie.

[Freddie Sayers]

The background, in case people are wondering, I suppose, is a room in a hotel in Budapest. You were out late last night celebrating or commiserating with the various groups of supporters. Let's start with that. What kind of evening was it?

[Aris Roussinos]

I've never seen an election night like that in Europe. It actually felt more like being back covering the Arab Spring. It felt like a genuinely kind of revolutionary atmosphere. People dancing on top of bus stops, streets full of cars blaring out, flags waving, people out chanting and dancing till well into the morning. Everyone I spoke to was celebrating and everyone said, it feels like 1989 again. This is a real historic turning point for Hungary.

[Freddie Sayers]

Are the people celebrating mainly young people? I mean, that's the kind of stereotype, isn't it, that young metropolitan liberals are Orban skeptics and then the kind of older people and people in the countryside are supporters. But with numbers like that, Peter Magyar, the opposition leader, must have scored a lot of votes with both older people and people in the countryside, otherwise he couldn't have pulled off such a trouncing. I mean, what's your sense on the ground of how broad the support for Magyar now is?

[Aris Roussinos]

I mean, I'd say it's both. So there was a very strong Zuma contingent, essentially a whole generation who've never known anything other than the Fides rule. But at the same time there were, you know, older people, mostly professionals, you know, lawyers, consultants. Budapest is a very kind of urbane, bourgeois city. In a way, these people were vehemently pro Magyar. But even the night before last, I was in Debrece, Hungary's second city on the eastern border, and there was a huge, huge crowd there for Tisa at the kind of final campaign rally. And there were a lot of older people there as well. And that was seen as, you know, fidesh heartland. Even government press officers were saying, tisa, they're going to try and take Debajan from us. But this is our heartland, they will never take it. But it was a huge, it was an absolutely huge turnout for Tisa.

[Freddie Sayers]

The. It really is one of those just huge change moments for that country. I mean, we haven't had, I would say, one here in the UK since 1997 that felt like that, a kind of genuine new flavor in the air. And as you say, a lot of these people will never have known anything other than Viktor Orban. So for them, it must feel like a whole new world. A lot of the centrists, a lot of the kind of liberals have been coming in saying this was a victory for democracy. Barack Obama has said the victory of the opposition yesterday is a victory for democracy, not just in Europe, but around the world. Keir Starmer this is a historic moment, not only for Hungary, but for European democracy. And to be fair, you can see what they mean, because it really did defy the skeptics. It's most commonly said about Viktor Orban that he has somehow rigged the system. He's stacked the judiciary, stacked the media. He has controls that are illiberal and yet none of them seem to work very well because the vote went ahead and he lost it so comprehensively. Is it a victory for democracy?

[Aris Roussinos]

What I will say about Orban is that he placed his thumb on the scales of the electoral system in terms of control of the media and so on. But fundamentally he was a democrat. He isn't an autocrat. He wasn't an autocrat. It was a free and fair election. When he lost, he accepted that and he bowed out of the scene gracefully. There'd been a lot of kind of scaremongering, really, both from opposition journalists, who are largely activists as well within Hungary, and opposition aligned, kind of, you know, liberal commentators in Western Europe and America who'd been saying that, oh, you know, maybe Orban will find some way to stay in power if he loses the election. That isn't who he was. Fundamentally, Orban genuinely reveled in his popularity, the popularity among the Hungarian people that kept him in power for a generation. When he'd lost that, he accepted that, you know, he didn't want to squander his, his record and his reputation. Hungary, Orban, he called it an illiberal democracy, but it is a democracy and it always was a democracy. And he did accept that. Magyar, it has to be said in some ways he's a more authoritarian figure, I think, than Orban. I mean, in terms of media access, it's a very tightly controlled ship. He's the only person in his party who could give interviews. It's still a personalist right wing government, just with a new person in charge.

[Freddie Sayers]

Tell us a bit more about that then. So a lot of the commentators on the left or in the center have been saying, as well as a victory for democracy, which I do think it does seem, it's also victory for the left or for liberalism, a rejection of the right. That's not true. As far as you're concerned, what are Magyar's policies? Is he a conservative nationalist? Is he different from Viktor Orban? Or is he just Viktor Orban without the corruption? So he promises Let me ask a simple question.

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[Aris Roussinos]

Fidesz without their corruption. That's how one Fides insider phrased it to me. And that is basically it. He came from within Fidesz. He was described to me as a third tier apparatchik by one Fidesz insider. His ex wife was the Justice Minister within Fiddes. She was seen as a high flyer, potentially an Orban successor. A few years ago liberal commentators I've spoken to have said ultimately he was socialized within Fiddas like he's a Fidesz operator. The Tea Party, at least initially kind of propelled itself as more a reformist movement from within Fiddas than a liberal opposition to it.

[Freddie Sayers]

What does that mean specifically then? So let's just try and detail it out for our listeners. So we know that he's different, or Thies is different from Fidesz in that they are pro European or at least purport to be pro EU in a way that Orban was not. We became very used to him blocking the various instruments of European Union legislation always. And he became a kind of thorn in the side of the eu. Whilst Magyar promises to work more cooperatively with them in order to release funding that he hopes will come in the direction of Budapest. That is fair, isn't it? That is a genuine difference between them.

[Aris Roussinos]

Yeah, that's a genuine difference. If you look at the points of rupture or controversy between Orban's Hungary and the eu. So immigration and the energy relationship with Russia, Petr Magyar, he isn't promising anything different. So in terms of immigration, he's actually more restrictive than Orban. He's pledged to cancel or annul all the work visas for South Asian migrants working in Hungary, which has actually hugely increased under Orban. In terms of Russia, he said it will take a decade maybe to kind of wean Hungary off Russian gas. So in terms of in reality, how things are actually going to change from Orban's rule? Nothing really. And both these policies, Russian energy, very restrictive immigration, they're popular in Hungary. They're very popular in Hungary, among Tsavoses as well. That was never the issue. Even though that's how that's framed in

[Freddie Sayers]

the west, that's really significant. So immigration is just not a distinction between them. By your account, Magyar is even more hardline on immigration than Viktor Orban was. So although it's a vote back towards Europe or it's a more affection towards the institutions of Europe, the Hungarian people are not saying they want an open door immigration policy or they want to return to kind of a free movement world. However you say not that much will change. This big story is that it's a rejection of the corruption perceived and real around the Orban regime and it's a rejection of a deeply illiberal idea which I would say is actually quite central to the, to the post liberals as well, which is that the state needs to empower itself to force through its own vision and must not get distracted or deterred by these kind of facets of a liberal democracy that stop you making things happen. That's the sort of mood behind urbanism and that's the mood that has inspired commentators in London and in Washington and all across Europe on the political right that there needs to be kind of more muscular reaction to the modern world, even if that means transgressing some liberal niceties. That was basically the Orban project. And that does feel like it's been rejected here, because corruption is really the obvious next step of that process. If you put your friends in the judiciary, if your friends acquire the media, if you start breaking down those kind of correctives of a normal liberal democracy, you're going to get after 16 years to something like where Orban got to. So I feel like that is a genuine rejection of the illiberal utopia.

[Aris Roussinos]

I think one of the main things to think about Orbanism is he tried to create a counter elite to what he saw as a liberal elite that had stacked the judiciary, had stacked the media, had stacked academia. So he created his own kind of counter project, putting in, you know, post liberals and allies within these positions. In terms of corruption, in terms of economics, one of the economic planks of Urbanism was to create kind of strong native Hungarian industries that could, you know, stand up internationally against, you know, kind of big multinational corporations working within Hungary. As an idea, I don't think that was a bad thing. I think that's actually a sensible project. However, in practice, what that meant was channeling, was channeling funds and state contracts towards his close political allies and friends and family. What intellectually or politically actually had a kind of good rationale behind it in practice just turned out to be petty corruption. So he didn't create these kind of strong native Hungarian industries, it was just a way of funneling funds to cronies. And that's something that Hungarians were very aware of and very resistant to.

[Freddie Sayers]

So that also is a major blow, I would say, to right wing fans of Orban around the world, because just as having a more muscular attitude to liberal institutions, the idea of the state taking a stronger interest in national industry to make it more resilient, self sustaining and so on. You know, the big critique of that had two parts, one of which is that it leads to corruption tick that happened in the Orban experiment. And the other one is that it doesn't work because economics isn't easily directed like that and you won't create the wealth. And the story you were getting on the streets of Budapest from Magyard supporters was that they were frustrated with the economic situation. So Auburnomics doesn't seem to have delivered for his voters and they've rejected it. So that's a profound lesson I would have thought for post liberals and illiberals around the world.

[Aris Roussinos]

If you look at the Law and Justice Party in Poland, they also had a similar political project and they succeeded actually in building Poland up into a major regional economic player. I think the issue with how urbanism works in practice wasn't the intellectual or political project behind was just the practice. Ultimately it failed at achieving a Hungarian equivalent to the Polish economic miracle of the past few decades. I'd also say it's too early to know what Peter Maggia and Tisa will actually in practice. How they'll direct the economy or kind of have a hands off approach to it, we don't know yet. It's too early to say. And remember, he does come from within Fidus. He grew up with a poster of Orban on his bedroom wall. He used to be an Orban fanboy. So I think it's too early to say that this is a total kind of rupture or rift with the kind of Orban model.

[Freddie Sayers]

Talk to us about the choice that Hungarians face between Russia and Europe, or at least that's how they seem to have perceived it, because Orban, when there was the invasion in Ukraine, Orban was initially very strongly kind of defensive and appalled by what he saw going on. And then over time has become much more of a sort of mediator and someone who was resisting European kind of rejection of Russia. I suppose they didn't like the voters, is that right? Do you think we can confidently say that Hungarian voters, on the basis of this result, want to face towards Europe and have no interest in being a kind of third way middle ground between Europe and Russia?

[Aris Roussinos]

Geopolitically, Orban had always positioned Hungary as a kind of amoral middle power, balancing the great empires of the world, Russia, China, the United States, playing them off against each other. As his rule developed in the past few years, he obviously became closer to Russia, but also to Trump's America. And that obviously was resoundingly rejected by Hungarian voters last night. You know, everyone I spoke to said, we are Europeans, we want to be closer within the European mainstream. We want European wages, we want European democracy, we want European values. We're not, we don't belong to the east, but also we're not Americans, we're not Trumpians. I would say last night's result was just as much a rejection of Trump's America actually as Putin's Russia. You saw the J.D. vance intervention. Even before that. There was CPAC, Hungary. I went to CPAC, Hungary.

[Freddie Sayers]

CPAC is the American Conservative Association.

[Aris Roussinos]

Yeah. So even as an Anglophone conservative, basically going to this kind of Trumpian megachurch of MAGA influencers and video endorsements from Trump and Netanyahu, it just felt strange and alien. And I think it felt just as strange and alien to Hungarian voters who don't appreciate this kind of one meddling in their internal domestic politics. The kind of crass vulgarity really of American conservatism and its, its fixation on issues that have nothing to do with Hungary and the kind of European path they want to follow.

[Freddie Sayers]

I wonder what the lesson there is for our own Reform Party here in the UK because it seems like right wingers around the world just refused to learn. We saw in Canada where the apparent association with Trump was absolutely disastrous for the right leaning conservative party there. Nigel Farage is very closely associated with Trump and with American populists and he seems to really encourage that association. He pops off over there on the plane all the time. Maybe we'll see a similar effect here. What do you think?

[Aris Roussinos]

Yeah, I think that's a major risk for reform. Even at cpac, there were quite prominent reform intellectual figures attending. I mean, if you look at the populist right across Europe, in Italy, in Poland, now in Germany, there's an increasing rejection of this association with Trump, who is, I think, politically toxic at this point. I do think for Farage and for reform, this kind of vulgar, Americanized populist conservatism might end up more of a millstone than it will be a selling point.

[Freddie Sayers]

It's weird how people on the political right were so excited about this idea of internationalizing their movement, almost taking inspiration from the UN know, progressive international or the, the left kind of global movements. But it makes much more sense within a left wing kind of universalist project that you would have these kind of tie ups. I would have thought conservatism and nationalism are by definition wanting to be distinct and different from the neighbors. We saw it with Yoram Hazoni, who is the kind of godfather of the conservative nationalist movement, already falling out with his fellow nationalists because of course he's Israeli. And there are perceived differences of interest there or very real differences of interest. Same now with Hungary and Farage. And we'll see Le Pen is already very much distancing herself and that party from other movements. Do you think there is such a thing as a conservative Internationale or should that just be forgotten about?

[Aris Roussinos]

With nationalism particularly, there's always going to be this tension between seeking allies, local or international allies, and also the inherent tensions between different kind of, you know, nationalist projects, like actually talking to Peter Vosa's last night. One thing that came a lot of people were saying, and this came across, you know, Orban, he calls himself a nationalist. He's close allies with Ficho in Slovakia, who, as they were saying, treats the Hungarian minority in Slovakia far worse than Zelenskyy does in Ukraine. And Orban in the Romanian election gave a kind of late semi endorsement of Simeon, the populist candidate. And again, that's not popular because he was a Romanian nationalist and was seen as working against the interests of Romania's, a Hungarian ethnic minority. So within a European context, ultimately nationalist projects are always going to kind of rub up against the age old divisions of European nations. Right. You know, minority questions, particularly in Central and Eastern Europe, that haven't been settled over the past century more broadly. Maybe this is just me projecting here, but I do think that there's space for a European nationalist project in a way that there isn't for a broader transatlantic kind of nationalist international. Look at the voters last night. They were all very pro European. I wouldn't necessarily say they're all liberal. A lot of them were expressing quite strong nationalist opinions, but they saw those nationalist opinions best protected and advanced within a European context. And I think there is space for a European right wing that is detached from the American populist right.

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[Freddie Sayers]

ACAST do. Where else in Europe do you see the beginnings of such a thing? Because obviously the UK left the European Union in 2016. In that moment it was like, you know, right wing Britain turns its back on liberal utopia of Europe. Since then, what we've seen is huge numbers of victories on the political right in Europe and it is starting to look much more like the continent of Europe is quite a right leaning, quite nationalistic bloc. And with what's going on with Donald Trump and the discussions around NATO and the Middle east, there's definitely an incentive there to try and build a stronger, more nationalistic European bloc. Where else is there signs of that happening and how could it take shape, do you think?

[Aris Roussinos]

I think you see glimmerings of that in France, in Italy, in Germany with the AfD. I think that's moving forward. Even at CPAC you could see I was networking with AfD and PIs and Confederacy, Polish right wing politicians who were rolling their eyes and smirking at each other when they saw the Star Spangled Banner being kind of warbled out on stage. And when you talk to them, they express essentially European nationalist opinions increasingly distinct from America's stances generally. Also, the relationship with Israel has to be said, which I think is going to be one of the dividing lines between Europe and the US moving forward.

[Freddie Sayers]

But it's still within the Constitution and within the systems of the European Union. You don't see this being some sort of alternative grouping.

[Aris Roussinos]

I think what we saw last night was the end of a kind of 2010s European right wing populism, Trumpian Maga, anti Europe. And I think TISA represents we'll see how they govern. But I think they represent an evolution of the European right wing rather than the rejection of it. A younger, more European focused means of advancing kind of national interests within a European framework. You see the headlines every day, but do they actually tell you what's going on?

[Podcast Promoter/Host]

We don't just look at the front pages.

[Aris Roussinos]

We look at what's moving beneath the surface. That's Undercurrents, the new daily newsletter from Unherd. It lands in your inbox every morning at 8am EST or 1pm GMT. Get the perspective that really matters. Get Undercurrents by me. James billow in the U.S. newsroom. Sign up [e-mail] undercurrents newsletter.

[Freddie Sayers]

And finally, what do you think that means for the uk? Because the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, is talking about new economic collaborations with Europe. It definitely feels like it's back on the table for Britain to be reconsidering once again its relationship with Europe in the light of everything that's happened in the past five years. What do you think it means for the UK if there is this slightly more nationalistic right wing flavour, European Union coming into being?

[Aris Roussinos]

I think the Iran war has given Starmer a bit of a boost in terms of gaining elite acceptance suddenly for a more detached relationship with America, which inherently means a close relationship with Europe. As we were saying earlier. I think one of the casualties of this will be Farage and reform, at least as they're currently composed. Even on the right, actually, yeah, I think even on the British. We're having conversations now about Anglo Gaulism and all this stuff, stuff that was very marginal a few years ago is now being kind of taken seriously and talks about British commentators. I think there's an increasing sense on the British right, even maybe on the younger British right, of Britain having a European destiny that isn't necessarily the same as being a member of the European Union, but of Britain, like Hungary, I guess, finding the means to kind of project its national will within the European framework. And I think that that probably will be a theme going forward.

[Freddie Sayers]

Fascinating. Aris, thank you so much for chatting to us today.

[Aris Roussinos]

Thank you for having me.

[Freddie Sayers]

That was Unherd's Aris Roussinos, someone who really gets under the skin of what is happening. He was a war correspondent. He has reported deeply in the Middle east, in Syria, Kurdistan and has become a bit of a specialist on the European right in recent years. Spent a lot of time in those countries and most recently was there for more than a month in Hungary, spending time with supporters of all parties. And I think the impression that he gives there is very interesting and very different to what you will read in most of the newspapers where there is this sense that the defeat of Orban is a victory for liberalism in a straightforward way and somehow this is kind of the revenge of the liberal centrists and the good times are going to start rolling once again, whilst what he is picking up is something very different, which is that, yes, the Orban experiment is over. He had some successes, he had some failures, corruption and the rest of it. Now there is a different version of nationalism, different version of right wing politics that actually works much more within the European framework and could see in time Europe emerging as really quite a right wing set of institutions. You won't hear much about that anywhere else, and I'm delighted that Aris was able to share those ideas. Thanks to him and thanks to you for tuning in. This was unherd.

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[Podcast Promoter/Host]

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