Podcast Summary: UnHerd with Freddie Sayers

Episode: Prof. Dieter Helm: The madness of our climate policy
Date: November 9, 2025
Guest: Professor Sir Dieter Helm – Professor of Economics, Oxford University; Author of The Carbon Crunch and Net Zero
Host: Freddie Sayers (UnHerd)

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode, released during COP30 in Rio de Janeiro, features Professor Sir Dieter Helm, one of the UK's most prominent climate economists, offering a highly critical, insider perspective on global and UK climate policy. Helm argues that current approaches are both ineffective and self-deluding, highlighting the economic and political downsides of current strategies while offering suggestions for more realistic, effective alternatives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Disillusionment with Climate Policy Consensus

• Helm acknowledges a major shift in public mood: voter frustration and growing skepticism about the effectiveness and cost of climate policies ([04:54]).
• He distinguishes two groups questioning climate action:
  • Those appalled by policy failures and wanting better approaches (including himself).
  • Those who wish to do nothing, or deny the problem exists ([04:54]).

2. Inefficacy of International Climate Summits

• Helm criticizes the spectacle of COP conferences, highlighting their lack of tangible outcomes.
  • "It's not going to be the end of humanity this century if the temperature goes up 2 or 3 degrees...but some will be very badly affected." ([07:09])
  • 29 COPs have not bent the curve of carbon concentration; emissions and atmospheric carbon keep rising ([06:24], [10:39]).
• Massive emissions from conference logistics (e.g., “90,000 people flew to one of these things... through cleared rainforest to get there”) underline the disconnect between words and actions ([10:39]).
• Summits result in “smoke and mirrors,” not actual global impact ([10:39]).

3. UK and European Climate Policy: Self-Delusion and Economic Downsides

• Helm refutes claims that renewables are “clean,” “cheap,” or “homegrown”:
  • "There are no clean energies in the world. They're all dirty, just some are more dirty than others. Look at the supply chain, look at the mining..." ([14:18])
  • “80% of the world’s solar panels are Chinese... most critical minerals, batteries, and rare earths are also Chinese” ([14:18]).
  • Renewables are assembled mostly from imported components, undermining claims of “homegrown” energy ([16:06]).
  • System costs (grid, backup, storage) make true costs much higher than politicians admit ([16:06]).
• UK’s high energy costs are driving deindustrialization, posing a serious competitive problem ([18:11]):
  • “If you have really expensive energy, you are not going to be competitive in the world economy.” ([18:37])
• The repeated political claim that decarbonization will be cheaper is called a “complete delusion” ([18:37]).
• UK is the “poster child” of climate illusions, importing dirty production rather than truly lowering its carbon footprint ([14:18], [10:39]).

4. Failure to Factor in Global Reality

• Politicians focus on territorial carbon emissions (ignoring consumption-based accounting).
• Targets like Net Zero 2050 and Clean Power 2030 are “aspirations” with little hope of success ([24:25], [29:38]):
  • “The 2030 target: not a hope in hell. And indeed it’s counterproductive... you’re going to have to pay top price for everything.” ([24:25])
• Real determinants of future global emissions are population/emissions growth in countries like India, Nigeria, Indonesia, and Brazil – not marginal reductions in the UK ([30:49], [32:34]).

5. Political and Social Fallout

• Climate policy perceived pain is fueling “revolution” and backlash against green policies, particularly among voters displaced by industrial decline ([13:19], [34:42]).
• The “core deceit” is politicians’ repeated claim that it wouldn’t cost anything to address climate change ([35:40]):
  • “We claim to care about the environment, we claim to care about future generations, but we don’t. We’re not prepared to face the cost.” ([35:40])
• Polarization is worsening: Left pushes harder on green policies, right and populists swing against them, making consensus and solutions even harder ([39:15], [42:18]).

6. Energy Realism and the Problem of Alternatives

• Fossil fuels remain dominant because they are abundant, cheap, reliable, and energy-dense ([37:19]).
• Renewables are resource- and technology-intensive, and scaling up is not as simple or clean as often promised ([16:06], [37:19]).
• US policy – for all its climate rhetoric – has quietly maintained and expanded fossil fuel production (shale gas, oil expansion under multiple presidents, including Obama and Biden) ([45:06]).

7. What Should Be Done? Helm’s Policy Prescription

• Stop digging holes: Don’t double down on failing policies; admit mistakes ([22:08], [42:18]).
• Rebalance electricity pricing between industry (must be competitive) and domestic consumers ([51:33]).
• Halt further expansion of offshore wind (“We've done a lot. We've demonstrated the world how to do it… lessons are now learned.”) ([51:33]).
• Take Nuclear Seriously: Commit to a real nuclear program, not stop-start projects (“If you do it, you have to do it properly.”) ([52:41]).
• Focus on UK’s actual strengths: R&D, North Sea expertise, CCS experimentation – things other countries cannot do as well ([52:41]).
• Border Carbon Adjustment: Make sure imports face the same carbon costs as domestic industry ([53:47]).
• Maximum global impact: Spend money where it delivers the greatest reduction in global emissions, not where it looks best for domestic politics ([52:41]).
• Be honest about trade-offs, costs, limits of current strategies, and who benefits and loses.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On political deceit:
  "We claim to care about the environment, we claim to care about future generations, but we don't. We're not prepared to face the cost." – Dieter Helm ([35:40])

• On UK renewables rhetoric:
  "They're not zero pollution, they're not clean energy, they're not zero emissions. Right? That's the important thing." – Dieter Helm ([16:06])

• On net zero targets:
  “Net zero as it's currently measured would not be a great achievement in respect to climate change. It's only territorial carbon emissions." – Dieter Helm ([24:25])

• On politicians and promises:
  “If you assume all this stuff is going to be cheaper, then you assume it's all fine and you're going to win the competitive race. The problem comes in the face of the evidence which looks to be going in the opposite direction.” – Dieter Helm ([22:08])

• On climate conferences:
  “It’s smoke and mirrors. …We haven’t stopped in the UK consuming steel, petrochemicals, fertilizers, etc., we just import them from somewhere else.” – Dieter Helm ([10:39])

• Policy suggestions:
  “What I would do is I would immediately rebalance electricity prices between industry and domestic consumers... I wouldn't expand offshore wind any further... I'd probably get very serious about nuclear power. But you either do nuclear or you don't. … And I'd really address the carbon border adjustment issue.” – Dieter Helm ([51:33]–[53:47])

Important Timestamps

• Shift in climate consensus & movement fracture: [04:54]
• On Bill Gates’ climate remarks & urgency: [06:24]–[07:09]
• Critique of COP and elite global summitry: [09:57]–[13:19]
• UK ‘poster child’ delusions: [14:18]
• True cost and ‘cleanness’ of renewables: [16:06]
• Economic competitiveness and energy: [18:11]–[20:33]
• UK’s economic decline and energy costs: [20:21]–[22:04]
• Unrealistic government targets: [24:25]–[29:38]
• Why global emissions solutions lie elsewhere: [30:49]–[33:12]
• Core deceit & climate backlash: [34:42]–[35:40]
• Fossil fuel reality & why transition is hard: [37:19]
• Political polarization of climate policy: [39:15]–[42:18]
• Why the right-wing/anti-green solution also fails: [42:43]
• US fossil energy policy continuity: [45:06]
• What should be done (Helm’s prescription): [51:33]–[53:47]

Tone and Language

Professor Helm is direct, candid, and occasionally sardonic, speaking with the authority of an insider fed up with “delusion”, “spin”, and the mismatch between rhetoric and reality. The episode is less polemical than matter-of-fact, relying on economic logic, historical trends, and global data, but does not shy away from calling out hypocrisy and self-defeating policies.

Conclusion

Professor Helm’s assessment is stark: the West’s climate policy is dominated by self-delusion, political posturing, and a fundamental unwillingness to face hard trade-offs. The climate challenge won’t be solved with the current approach—if anything, the social and economic backlash is just beginning. Helm offers clear-headed alternatives, urging realism, honesty, and targeted, globally meaningful action.

This summary excludes all commercial breaks and non-content sections.