← UnHerd with Freddie Sayers
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- [00:00]
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- [01:10]
Ross Barkan
acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:19]
Courtney or Mary (Two Judgy Girls)
Welcome back to two Judgy Girls. I'm Mary from the Bay. Courtney and I'm Courtney from la. TJG is the podcast where we spill all the tea on your favorite reality TV shows, celebrity gossip and everything in between. We're here to bring you our unfiltered opinions, hilarious commentary and plenty of laughs along the way. We're two SDSU Delta Gamma sisters with a microphone and a whole lot of opinions. Each week we dive headfirst into the wild world of reality television. From Bravo to all the trash TV you could want. We break down the drama, dissect the latest scandals, and share our thoughts on everything from the jaw dropping moments to the embarrassing antics. But that's not all. We're not here to just gossip. We're here to connect with you, the jurors, and share our love of all things pop culture. Whether we're dishing on the latest celebrity breakups, discussing our favorite guilty pleasure movies, or sharing embarrassing stories from our own lives, we promise to keep it real, keep it fun, and keep you coming back for more. Come judge with us.
- [02:20]
Ross Barkan
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [02:26]
Unherd Host
A Com. Hello and welcome to Unherd, where I am in our new New York office. Yes, it's still a work in progress, but we are going to be hosting a lot more content from here. Discussions, events, so make sure to check that out to my left, I am looking at the Empire State Building. To my right, I'm looking at the Flatiron Build. And we are right here in the middle of Lower Manhattan. And today, since we're here, I wanted to focus on something very specific to New York, which is the new mayor, Zoran Mandani. Who is he? What is this so called democratic socialism that he espouses? Is the particular politics that Mandani is now famous for? Skeptical on Israel, much more left, economically populist? Is that now a trend that is going to take over the Democratic Party? Is it part of American politics more broadly in the future? And is it connected to what we in Europe have been used to for some time with people like Jeremy Corbyn and the New Green Party? Zach Polanski, is it the same phenomenon? Well, to help us understand this, I'm delighted that we are joined by Ross Barkan.
- [03:41]
Ross Barkan
Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.
- [03:45]
Unherd Host
So you are not only an unheard columnist and a writer more generally, but you actually used to be Zoram Mamdani's boss, is that correct? You discovered him and you hired him when you had a campaign for the Senate here in New York?
- [04:01]
Ross Barkan
Yes, that is correct. And I don't want to claim discovery since he was already a political organizer on the rise. But in 2018, when I was 28, I ran for New York State Senate and I hired a young guy who's 26 at the time to work for me, first as field director and then he became the campaign manager and his name was Zoran Mandani. So I got to know him as a completely anonymous but very astute young man who over the course of time has obviously risen to such global prominence. And that's given me an interesting window, I would say, into him, into this phenomenon, and certainly personally fascinating to know someone through every stage of their evolution. It's rare to meet a massive celebrity when they're not one. Most do not get that opportunity.
- [04:55]
Unherd Host
So what is he actually like then? I mean, we're going to spend most of our time here talking about his political views, his policies. And by the way, we're not going to be entirely supportive and uncritical, I should say, despite the fact that you know him personally. But what kind of person is he?
- [05:12]
Ross Barkan
I think one of the mistakes people made about him in the election last year was to dismiss him, as they use the phrase theater kid, as someone who is overly performative. There's kind of an undercurrent there of someone who's maybe slightly effeminate to some degree or someone who doesn't actually have charisma. He's someone, he's very funny, he's very charming. He was a lot of fun to work with. He's also very, very serious about politics. And he's someone, he puts in very long hours. That's something too. And I didn't know what type of mayor he would be necessarily. But one critique I would push back on is whether he'll be successful or not. Who can say? But he's going to be competent. And the left doesn't always have the most competent politicians. He was someone, whether it's my campaign or the working other campaigns, whether it was his own campaign for mayor, he's someone he watches the money, he wants to know what people are doing. He wakes up very early, goes to bed very late. He has this real Protestant work ethic we call it in the US Almost this classic.
- [06:29]
Unherd Host
And it's the first time I've heard Sora Mandani be described as Protestant, first time ever.
- [06:34]
Ross Barkan
He, he is a seven day a week sort of worker. And when and just when he was managing the canvassers, for example, he'd want them to put in those full four hour shifts. And for me personally as a candidate, he was the type you're going to be there at the subway station at 6, 6:30 in the morning, you're going to knock on doors until nine at night and you're going to stay on there because people are going to be home at night. So you have to be there to greet them. You're not, you're not going back to the campaign office at 7:30 or 8:00'.
- [07:06]
Courtney or Mary (Two Judgy Girls)
Clock.
- [07:06]
Ross Barkan
So he, he's a taskmaster. It's one way I describe him, a real taskmaster.
- [07:11]
Unherd Host
Okay, so that's the good stuff. What are the weaknesses? What are the things that you think he maybe doesn't have in spades?
- [07:21]
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- [09:02]
Ross Barkan
I think you know you can believe the best in people. But there's a certain naivete perhaps that can come with that he has a
- [09:09]
Unherd Host
naivety of some kind.
- [09:12]
Ross Barkan
I think he, he can be very hard headed but also I think like any young earnest person you know, you maybe can overestimate some of the people around you. There are policy decisions he's made as mayor I don't quite agree with. Though some people, probably more moderate conservative people would. I'm not sure his relationship with the police commissioner will work out. I think he feels it can. But they are very different politically. And I wonder if how sustainable this will be.
- [09:45]
Unherd Host
I mean is he. Does he have a high opinion of himself?
- [09:50]
Ross Barkan
Yes and no. I think he does. He has an ego. I mean to, to go this far, you have an ego. He's someone who at the same time, at least when I spoke, was interviewed him for the book I'm doing about him seemed pretty self aware and at times very almost bemused by this fame that he had found or surprised by the power that his words suddenly carried. I think you think of how fast he rose to fame. This is someone where in March of 2025 his tweets didn't mean all that much. By June 2025 his tweets are close to moving the stock market. He's someone, I think he hasn't. He has an ego, I think like a lot of politicians. But he's also having known him now since he got to be mayor, he is self aware enough that this is all a bit strange. This is all. All unlikely.
- [10:44]
Unherd Host
Let's try to understand what his politics actually are. Because so called democratic socialism, they are the heirs to the aoc. Squad, which was the sort of left activist group within the Democratic Party. You could say they're heirs a little bit further down the line from the Bernie Sanders brigade, maybe even connected to the Jeremy Corbyn brigade in the uk. Famous, I suppose, for two things. One is economic left radicalism, pretty much anti capitalism, and the other would be anti Zionism.
- [11:21]
Ross Barkan
Yes.
- [11:22]
Unherd Host
Do you think that's fair, that those really are the two most salient pillars of the new progressivism?
- [11:29]
Ross Barkan
They absolutely are salient. It's important to understand what democratic socialism is compared to communism. For example, democratic socialism in the United States traces itself one to the old Socialist Party of Eugene Debs of the early 20th century, which was very prominent. But they were, they were a third party. They were fighting the Republicans and the Democrats and the successor organization, the Democratic Socialists of America, founded by Michael Harrington, well known sociologist, historian and activist.
- [12:01]
Unherd Host
This is what the 70s, this is early 80s.
- [12:04]
Ross Barkan
This is early 80s DSA is founded. Harrington's insight was that unlike the Socialist Party, we're going to compete in Democratic primaries and we're going to be a bit more mainstream. So the vision of democratic socialism was we will be Democrats, but we're going to pull the party to the left. And over time it certainly evolved in part because DSA was not very relevant politically until after 2016. The big change is Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders runs for president in 2016. He loses, but in the process of losing to Hillary Clinton, he spurs on this new mass movement of 20 somethings and 30 somethings. And DSA, once a very small organization of a few thousand people, nationally balloons. And then with that growth, this new influx of people that begins to define its politics. So Harrington, for example, was fairly pro Israel. He also was the, the, the DDSA of the 80s was also very communist skeptical.
- [13:07]
Unherd Host
And even Sanders was not Israel skeptical to the degree that Mamdani is. There's definitely an evolution there.
- [13:15]
Ross Barkan
Sanders, he is Jewish. He lived in a kibbutz in the 1960s. He would describe himself as a Zionist. He, he believes in a Jewish state of Israel. He's just deeply skeptical of the status quo. Mamdani himself, though he wouldn't use the term anti Zionism, is effectively an anti Zionist. That, that's how I would describe him. He, he wants or has advocated for a state of equal rights, a binational state, a state that would not enforce the Jewish majority. And that, that has certainly become much more of a defining aspect of the DSA left in the last few years. No doubt about that.
- [13:52]
Unherd Host
Mamdani himself, his father is Muslim. Both his parents, Indian origin, father Muslim, mother Hindu.
- [14:00]
Ross Barkan
Hindu, correct.
- [14:00]
Unherd Host
And Mamdani himself, what are his religious beliefs?
- [14:03]
Ross Barkan
He is Muslim and he's observant, but there's this idea that, well, that makes him an Islamist. That makes him a supportive theocracy. He's observant in the way, I think of like a Jew who might keep kosher or go to synagogue on the high holidays, but is not wearing a kippah necessarily, or is not following religion to the degree of an Orthodox or a Hasidic Jew. So Zoran Mamdani, I would describe him as a, you know, a liberalized, secularized Muslim. He's a believer. He fasts for Ramadan, he prays. But you see how he conducts himself. I mean, he's not bringing any sort of religious orientation into the management of the government. And he's not someone who, beyond the holidays and embracing Muslim people and his coalition is talking of his faith every single day or anything like that.
- [15:03]
Unherd Host
But his hostility to the Israeli government is definitely pronounced and it can't really be exaggerated just how totemic it is that here we are sitting in the most Jewish city in America, the biggest Jewish city outside Israel in the world. I believe there are more than 2 million Jews who live here now, headed by. Represented by a Muslim for the first time and someone who is fiercely critical of Israel. A lot of Jews are very anxious about that. It feels like a kind of new coalition that they are very worried about.
- [15:41]
Ross Barkan
I understand why. I would push back in a few ways. One, I would say is one, there are plenty of Jews who agree with him, certainly younger Jews. There is a divide in the Jewish community between those who feel a deep loyalty to Israel and ancestral loyalty, and those, honestly, like myself, who are younger, who believe in the Jew being safe in the United States of America and who believe that a faith does not have to be completely intertwined with one nation state that was founded in 1948 and is making political decisions that many in the left, almost everyone in the left now disagrees with. And so, yes, if you are a pro Israel Jew, certainly it is alarming. It is alarming. Not because your life has changed under Mamdani. It is not. He is. Somebody talks about anti Semitism constantly. He is talked about boosting funding to combat anti Semitism. He visits synagogues. There's no shortage of statements he has made.
- [16:42]
Unherd Host
Well, he's also talking about. It's been literally in the press in the last week, arresting Benjamin Netanyahu. Yes, the sitting prime minister of Israel. If he comes to New York to attend the United Nations?
- [16:53]
Ross Barkan
Yes.
- [16:54]
Unherd Host
I mean, that is a extraordinarily hostile statement for a mayor of New York to make.
- [17:01]
Ross Barkan
It's a mayor of New York who cares about international policy. And certainly Netanyahu is regarded by the ICC as a criminal. Of course, I truthfully think it'll be impossible to enforce. And if I were mayor, I'll say this, as mayor, I would not have made that declaration. I would not, because I think it'll be impossible to do. Realistically, you're not going to send police to drag him off the streets. It's not going to happen. And I do think he erred there,
- [17:28]
Unherd Host
but I kind of don't think the federal government will allow that.
- [17:32]
Ross Barkan
I don't think so. I don't think anything will happen. And I think it was a mistake to introduce the idea. What I will say though is that criticism of net. One, I'll speak in two ways. One, I'll say criticism of Netanyahu does not equal criticism of Jews. We'll start there. I actually think it's poisonous and toxic for American Jews that so much of their identity and well being is tied up in the decisions of a far right government. A government that is not respecting international law, that is both occupying the west bank and has killed tens of thousands of civilians. And now we all know Hamas is terrible. I'm not defending Hamas. I think the leftists who defend Hamas are ignorant and terrible. You should not defend Hamas. What they did in October 7th was atrocious. That all being said, I think why Mamdani has been successful is because there are a lot of voters who understand you can defend the Jewish people, you can care about anti Semitism, but that doesn't mean that Benjamin Netanyahu's Israeli government gets to have a blank check from the United States.
- [18:48]
Unherd Host
Is it part of a move to a more sectarian politics? I guess that would be the anxiety that we are perhaps a bit more familiar with in Europe recently. We've had it in the uk recent elections where the Green Party candidate spends most of their time talking about Palestine. And you're like, why is it that being on the left and wanting the environment to be protected means that I need to spend half or more of my time talking about Palestine? That kind of coalition feels more sectarian. You could say it's. It's a strange kind of. It's a strange necessary combination which now has come to America as well.
- [19:24]
Ross Barkan
I would say a few things. One, for Zoran Mamdani himself, he actually talks about Israel, Palestine Fairly little as mayor, actual as mayor. If you look at his public statements, what he does day to day, it's all local. He's very focused on the local now. He gets asked about it. If he's asked about it, he will speak out. But he's not having like press conferences to declare Israel is the Great Satan or that Netanyahu is bad. He's talking about buses, he's talking about the schools, he's talking about the World cup and so on. What I'll say in terms of the issue of Israel in American politics, we could talk Europe, I'll talk America. There is a Vietnam War analogy. Not in that Americans are being sent to die in Israel and Gaza, they're not, but that we, the Americans, have been funding this now for Europeans. Yeah, I, I see why I, I see that understanding. Like if an English green is talking about Palestine all day, you may be skeptical. Obviously there's solidarity with other countries, but it's not as if, I don't know, is the UK government complicit in this? And not, not in this. Not in the same way the United States government in many ways underwrites Israel. Israel. That the relationship has been unstinting for about 30 years. The last president to really question it was actually George H.W. bush. You've not had discussions about conditioning military aid since the 1990s. I think it's more understandable in the US that the left would care because you see terrible things happening in a country and it feels like your taxpayer dollars are going to it. And also politicians have been talking about Israel for decades. This didn't just get invented last week by the pro Palestine left. When I started covering politics in the 2010s, politicians in America and in New York were constantly talking about how great Israel was, how we have to defend Israel. Anytime there's any kind of rocket fire back and forth between Israel and Hamas, it was. You couldn't even entertain the thought that the Palestinian perspective would matter. And so that has been the shift and it has become a wedge issue. You can say there's been too much focus. There should be more in the economy, there should be more cost of living. And I wouldn't dispute that necessarily. But I would say in the American context, there's a lot of logic to it. It's not crazy. If the American government had nothing to do with Israel, nothing. If it were just another country, I would get more the criticisms of this Israel. A strange sectarian obsession.
- [22:18]
Unherd Host
So in your view, is it now a permanent shift? That's what really matters, whatever your views personally are on it. I mean, we had this vote in Congress about supporting a ban on military assistance by the US To Israel, and it didn't pass, but it got a pretty sizable minority of Democrats, I mean, nearly half, which is a huge increase from equivalent votes just two years ago. I think it was more like 20% two years ago. So something more substantial than just Soran Mamdani and a few fringe candidates on the left. Something is happening within the Democratic Party, very much so.
- [22:55]
Ross Barkan
And the shift is going to be permanent. That is what I would say to a left wing or right wing person. And you can think that's great or it's terrible, but I'll diagnose it as clinically as I can. There is a generational shift. We can go into why this shift is happening. With most people under 45, it's happening increasingly. Those over 45 is absolutely happening on the left. In the Democratic Party, I think Joe Biden will be the last resolutely pro Israel Democratic president. The next president will be pro Israel, but be willing to condition military aid and to keep the prime minister, whoever that might be. If it's Netanyahu or someone else, on a much tighter leash. I think Israel will be treated like any other country that the US Deals with, where you're an ally, but you cannot simply do anything you want. I think on the right, it's happening to an extent too. Look at J.D. vance. Look at how a lot of young conservatives talk about Israel, putting aside even like the Nick Fuente swing, where you have, like real anti Semitism, young conservatives, young Maga, they believe in America first. They took Trump very seriously. And if you are America first, it does seem strange that the United States government gives Israel a blank check all the time and orient so much of its Middle Eastern policy around Israel. Look at the Iran war, and this was a real breaking point. This was a real shift. And you look at how the US And Trump were pulled by Netanyahu into this war because Iran understandably, is a sworn enemy of Israel. And Netanyahu has long wanted a war like this. And he argued to Trump that this could be a quick war, we can win, go bomb them out and take care of business. And you see how spectacularly that backfired. What a quagmire we're in now, how Iran has more leverage today than it did in February. And the conservative, the younger conservative especially, looks at that status quo and goes, why did this happen? This is not the Republican Party I want now. I think the Evolution on the right will happen more slowly because the donors are moving more into the Republican Party. The pro Israel donor is going to have less of a say in the Democratic Party going forward. But you see what happened with Thomas Massie. He lost his primary and AIPAC and other Israel donors were successful. So I expect, expect there's still to be an Israel hawk wing in the GOP for a while. I don't think it's going to disappear, but I think long term, long term it's going to look a lot more like how Vance talks about Israel and
- [26:01]
Unherd Host
then within the Democratic Party, which is really what we're talking about. Yes, this more populist new generation of Mamdaniites. Evidently it's more than just him. There were three congresspeople from New York State that he endorsed and were then successful in the primaries. So clearly this is a spreading phenomenon. Could it become a majority? Could it be the next presidential candidate, for example?
- [26:27]
Ross Barkan
Perhaps. I think the next candidate is a short time away and so I won't, I can't predict that there will be a DSA presidential candidate. And that would be Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. I don't know if she's going to win. I think she'll be potent with the victories of the DSA candidates. And the leftist candidates aren't dsa, but are in league or sympathetic. They're going to have a much bigger bloc in Congress. I think it'll take time. I do think there are some Tea Party analogies. You look at the Tea party in 2010 and how it was able to remake the Republican Party and how Donald Trump in 2016 in some ways was an outgrowth of that. This really fiercely anti establishment populist grassroots movement that was quite furious. I think you're seeing some version of that on the left. I don't know if it's exactly the same. I don't know how far it's gonna go. But you see the success in these primaries these candidates have had in the same way the Tea Party had success in the primaries, you look at how, if you remember Eric Cantor, who was going to be the speaker at one time, he's the congressman from Virginia. He lost in 2014 to a nativist, immigrant, skeptical primary challenger. And that was considered a massive, massive upset and a huge shock. And in fact, that was the precursor to Trump in 16. So I don't know where it's going to go exactly, but I will say the momentum is there that the Democratic Party is going to change form. It's a hollow Party and the future is going to be contested.
- [28:06]
Unherd Host
And the parallels people make between Mamdani and Trump, I mean, it was striking to observers how well they seemed to get on when they did meet, although they disagree about pretty much everything politically, there is a kind of symmetry there because of that anti establishment feeling. And I suppose Mamdani, by your account, is hoping to do to the Democrats what Trump has done to the Republicans.
- [28:28]
Ross Barkan
I think that they, they do get along because they are both anti establishment outsiders. And Trump admires how he stormed through the Democratic elite to win that primary and in that general election as well. There are absolutely parallels between the two in that at the outset of their races, very few took them seriously. Trump was, of course, famous already. Mamdani was not. But they had to overcome entrenched opposition, real entrenched. I mean, people have to remember what the 2016 primary looked like and what the Republican National Convention looked like where politicians like Ted Cruz could barely bring themselves to speak in support of Trump, if they did at all. And now to where Trump owns the Republican Party. Mamdani, I don't know if he's thinking in those exact same terms.
- [29:22]
Unherd Host
Well, he can't run for president because he wasn't born in the United States.
- [29:25]
Ross Barkan
Yes. So he's limited there. But he has no problem in these primaries of flexing his muscle and getting people sympathetic to him elected. For now, his project focuses on New York. That that's been his remit. And because he can't run for president, that's really kept him in the zone. But I think the forces that he embodies and he has unleashed to some degree, that's going to continue. Just as Bernie Sanders was at the end of the left insurgency, Zoran Mamdani is at the end the left insurgency. And you could see a Mamdani like candidate winning the Democratic nomination and becoming president and changing the face of the party. It's all in play. The establishments are very weak. The Republican establishment crumbled first. The Democratic establishment held on longer. They've controlled or won the last three presidential elections. But 2028 is completely wide open, utterly wide open, like few elections we've ever seen. And that's why the left has a chance.
- [30:35]
Courtney or Mary (Two Judgy Girls)
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- [31:05]
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- [32:16]
Unherd Host
we haven't talked about economics at all, but I think it's important to do that because other than the Israel or Zionism question, that's the other real new thing about democratic socialists. They are not capitalists. I would say they are suspicious of capitalism. There's a huge amount of rhetorical firepower directed at the rich. Just in his first year or so in office, I mean Mamdani, he's passed the record biggest budget in New York City's history. So he's spending more. He's been in favor of rent freezes. He's had some success making the policy about rent freezes stricter. He's talked about wealth taxes. Not all of them have come to pass. But it looks like he's working with the governor on this so called pied a terre tax where rich people outside the city who keep an expensive property in the city will receive additional taxes. These are all populist left kind of moves. How far is he prepared to take it? I mean, how suspicious of business is he? I mean all these skyscrapers around us are built on the phenomenon of American capitalism. What does he want to do to it?
- [33:29]
Ross Barkan
He's interesting in that because he's mayor, he could only be so anti capitalist. You've seen this in some of his Actions and his rhetoric. He meets with a lot of business leaders. He tends ribbon cuttings for new developments. He is a capitalist skeptic in the sense that he supports a robust welfare state and I think in his perfect world would take the market out of a lot of daily life, whether it's health care, you know, bringing in a government run health care, a lot of what Europeans have already having free higher education. You don't hear much about the nationalization of industries and that kind of socialism. So I would say in a way it's less radical than perhaps what you saw out of the old European left. He's someone because of the nature of his role, he wants to grow the welfare state and he wants a more robust social safety net and he wants to do things and enact policy that will make it easier for people to afford certain things, you know, whether it's housing, whether it's public transportation. At the same time, is he behaving like a true anti capitalist? Not really. One is because he can. The mayor of New York has a limited, limited tools on the toolkit.
- [34:49]
Unherd Host
But also he's literally, he's mayor of Wall Street.
- [34:51]
Ross Barkan
He's also, he's the mayor of the
- [34:53]
Unherd Host
most successful capitalist experiment in the history of the world.
- [34:56]
Ross Barkan
I would say he is more of someone who is trying to take the bounty in New York City and redistribute it more, perhaps get bring more benefits to a working class person in the city. But yes, he can't run against Wall Street. He's not someone who says abolish Wall Street. And even his tax hike proposals, none of them are extreme. The pied a terror attacks and talked about for many years, he didn't invent that at all. It also is raising a relatively small amount of money.
- [35:32]
Unherd Host
It's a symbolic populist move.
- [35:34]
Ross Barkan
Ultimately it's, it's helpful I think that what he wants to do that is being blocked by the governor are the income and corporate tax hikes. That would be a little less symbolic. That would be you're getting more money and certainly there are taxpayers who won't be happy. But so far he's, he's not been able to do that because the city needs the state's permission. The governor bought into Pieter but not into corporate income tax hikes. So he's limited to, he's boxed it.
- [36:04]
Unherd Host
And maybe some people, many people may say that's for the good.
- [36:08]
Ross Barkan
Some would say yes because you know,
- [36:10]
Unherd Host
anyone on the sort of business conservative right will say this is a terrible danger. This is an engine of the American economy, this city. And to put it in the hands of someone they would call a communist, he obviously would not describe himself in that way. Somebody has no respect for the engines of economic growth. All it's going to do is self sabotage people. Locally, they're going to move to other states. People will move to Florida, Texas, wherever they can get better tax regimes. And then internationally it will just reduce America's competitiveness at exactly the moment when they need to be more competitive. What is the pro Mandani answer to that critique?
- [36:49]
Ross Barkan
There's a few answers to that. One, I would say the threat of mobility out of New York is highly overstated. One to pull off the trick of living outside, you have to live in the city to avoid paying taxes. You have to be outside around six months of the year. So there's a very particular amount of days you have to spend outside of New York City to no longer be paying taxes to the city and the state. I would also say that New York as the America's largest city, as a place that has this massive pool of talent, companies still want to be here even in a high tax regime. Business owners want to be here. They want to be in the middle of things. And a lot of the wealthy want access to the cultural institutions as well.
- [37:37]
Unherd Host
Well, some people will be listening to this saying Roth sounds complacent. People have moved out of California. There's a lot more mobility within the US than there used to be. Why could it not happen to New York? But you feel confident that there's no real serious threat, that a mudani kind of regime is going to mean that rich people leave this city.
- [37:57]
Ross Barkan
I don't one is because when he talks about the type of government he wants to emulate, it's not the Soviet Union. He talks about the sewer socialists. Milwaukee, who ran the city of Milwaukee for 50 years from the early 1900s to the 1960s. And what they did there was they brought more efficient government, fairer government, more redistribution, better managed public services. They were focused on making sure the city runs well, making sure government works. We had a moderate pro business mayor who is corrupt and it was a disaster for four years. That's not saying we can't do well with another moderate Democrat. What it's saying is that you can get a more robust social safety net, you can get more benefits for working class people in the city, this very rich city. And at the same time you can focus on management, getting corruption out of government, getting pay to play out of government, making it work. I think what People are seeing right now in New York, and we'll see where it goes, is government seems to be working in a way. It worked under Bloomberg, too. It's not. It's not the first time New York government has worked. But he is someone who is very energetic. He cares about the city. He's clearly invested in the city. And so if you're a wealthy person, you can say, well, I don't want to pay this proposed higher corporate tax. I'm going to go. But the taxes proposed by Mamdani are fairly modest. We'll start there. And so I think for all those who complain, I'm not convinced most will go through the trouble of leaving. We'll see. Obviously, you've had relocation out of California. That's true. California has got its own problems to solve. I do think a lot of what keeps people in cities and keeps people in places is leaders who inspire confidence. Can Mamdani be that kind of leader? So far, it seems like he could. We'll find out. Sometimes you don't have those sorts of leaders. I think the Californian Democratic Party is not a particularly strong or compelling organization that's produced a lot of talent. I don't know if Gavin Newsom, to some degree, I don't know what his prospects for president are, but I don't know if he inspires confidence in the same way Kamala Harris came out of California. Does she inspire confidence in the same way? Sometimes you need people and individuals who can be real advocates for their state, for their cities and make the pitch. Mayor, in many ways, is a pitchman, so we'll see. But I personally am not convinced that a modest tax hike on corporations or individuals is going to lead to massive capital flight.
- [40:44]
Unherd Host
I'm going to sum up what I think your message has been today to people listening. The two pillars that I talked about, the Israel skepticism, the anti Zionism and the anti capitalism. On both of those, you're kind of saying, calm down, dears. Zoram Mamdani is not as frighteningly anti Israel as his critics make out and is not as communist as his critics make out. You're saying he's part of a kind of trend, an anti establishment trend on the left that is happening whether you like it or not. Am I fair to sum it up that way?
- [41:24]
Ross Barkan
Yes, I think that is an accurate summation.
- [41:26]
Unherd Host
Okay, well, in that case, I'm going to end by asking you to give us a point of critique, because otherwise, people listening to this are going to be like, freddie, you've gone on some Old buddy of Zoram Hamdani and he's just given them a whitewash. What is the thing you're most worried about? What is the thing? You think this is not going well? This could be really bad. Not just for his personal career, but bad for the city, bad for the country.
- [41:52]
Ross Barkan
It's a good question. Let me think of something. I'm actually. Anxious is a strong word. I don't know. I mean, we'll take a less dramatic example, free buses. I like the idea of free buses, but there are real challenges to that. Some people say it'll become rolling homeless shelters, I don't know, but can I hand wave that away and say impossible? I can't. He's been focusing on speeding up the buses, which is good. But I would say something like free buses. Can that be a success? I hope it can be personally, but I don't know if it will be the pre kindergarten program that he wants to enact if he gets it to where he wants it to be. It's very expensive. It's a, it's a big outlay for the city. Can the money show up from the city and the state governments, can they make the dollars work? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, I, I guess if I had to speak in a, in a longer term sense. There are a lot of, there are proposals that cost money. The city's budget is on okay footing. It's not on remarkably good footing. If there is like a tech bubble burst, let's say there's an AI bubble burst. If there's some big downturn in Wall Street. Right. Is he writing checks that he later can't cash? So these are things, even if you support the policies, you've got to think about that. And so I would say there's no particular policy where I look at and go that's bad for the city.
- [43:25]
Unherd Host
So mandanism is all good and well, as long as the economy is chugging along nicely, faced with a downturn, it's
- [43:32]
Ross Barkan
going to be harder. And this what happened in the 1960s and 70s in New York City, where New York City really was a fairer city with a strong social safety net. It had a really good welfare state through the 1970s into the 1970s. And you had a massive downturn. You had the deindustrialization of America, which happened in New York. You had white flight. You had the taxpayer base, not the wealthy, but middle class people fleeing the city. You had crime, which kept going up and up and up. And you got to a point where there's A fiscal crisis, the city almost goes bankrupt. We are nowhere near that, nowhere even in the ballpark of that. But that's the thing that hangs over the history of New York, is what if there is another downturn half as bad? And how do you govern under those circumstances? And Mamdani ism or any sort of energetic progressive movement could run up against a very hard fiscal reality. If the stock market crashes, if crime somehow makes a U turn, I don't know. But that's what I mean where it's like there's not a policy, but it's like these macro forces. And can someone like Zoran Maldani, can he manage through that lesser note of
- [44:55]
Unherd Host
critique than a note of caution we got from you in the end? But I will, I'll take it.
- [45:00]
Ross Barkan
He's going to have to make hard choices. And when you make hard choices, you're going to disappoint your coalition. And the policy platform you ran on I think is fine. Like if you look at his policy proposals, one could say in some ways they're not ambitious enough. I don't know. A rent freeze and rent stabilize apartments is nice, but you got to build also a lot more housing and do a lot more to actually get housing more affordable. But I think on a macro sense, his challenges are going to be if the fiscal situation, the city suddenly deteriorates. And are the promises that he's made, can they actually be paid for? Or is he putting. You mentioned the big budget. Is he piling up potential debts? It's that fiscal question that I think in New York you always have to consider, especially if we are quite beholden to Wall street and certainly to tech as well.
- [45:56]
Unherd Host
Rospar Khan, thanks for your time today.
- [45:58]
Ross Barkan
Yeah, thank you for having me.
- [46:00]
Unherd Host
Rest assured, we are not planning to become the pro Mamdani propaganda channel here at Unherd, but I felt that since our very own contributor Ross actually hired him, you could almost say discovered him, knows him really quite intimately, we thought that was the chance we couldn't say no to to get a different angle on who Mamdani actually is and what Mamdan Ghanaianism means. Interesting also to hear what the defenses are when those more common critiques are thrown at him. Is he as anti Israel as people say? Is he as anti capitalist as people say? You might agree or disagree with what Ross Barkan had to say there. As always, let us know in the comments. But until then, thanks for joining. And thanks to Ross. This was unheard of.
- [46:54]
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