UnHerd with Freddie Sayers

Episode: The ICE debate: Sohrab Ahmari vs Jenin Younes
Date: January 15, 2026

Overview

This episode dissects the polarizing ICE shooting incident in Minneapolis that killed Renee Goode, a case that has ignited national debate over the role of ICE, law enforcement powers, civil liberties, and political rhetoric. Freddie Sayers hosts a structured dialogue: first with civil liberties lawyer Jenin Younes, then UnHerd’s US editor Sohrab Ahmari (who publicly defended the ICE officer’s actions), and finally polling expert David Montgomery of YouGov. The episode uses the "Rashomon effect" as a lens for understanding how the same event can yield radically divergent interpretations, aiming to illuminate the legal, ethical, and political fractures it has exposed.

1. Setting the Scene: The Rashomon Effect (01:07–03:10)

• Freddie Sayers introduces the case of Renee Goode’s death, framing it as a prism for starkly divided interpretations—what he calls the “Rashomon effect,” referencing the classic Japanese film where witnesses all see the same incident differently.
• Sayers describes the tribal split in public response and sets out his aim: to dig into both sides of the dispute and offer listeners insight into the legal and political complexities.

2. Jenin Younes: Civil Liberties Critique of the ICE Officer (04:00–22:32)

Legal Framework & Authority (04:00–05:22)

• Younes clarifies ICE’s limited jurisdiction:
  • ICE officers enforce federal immigration law only
  • No legal authority over most US citizens (unless involved in illegal immigration)
  • Cannot make routine traffic stops or arrest US citizens for state crimes
  • Can ask questions or investigate where there is "knowledge" that an illegal immigrant is present, but not perform broad “sweeps”
• On the current case: Goode, a US citizen, was only obstructing traffic—a state (not federal) law matter.

Incident Breakdown & Legal Analysis (05:22–10:36)

• Sayers summarizes events: Goode was blocking the road as part of an organized protest, was approached by officers, refused to move, and in a fast confrontation, tried to drive off; an ICE officer shot her three times.
• Younes’ legal opinion:
  • Debatable whether ICE had authority even to stop or arrest Goode ("I tend to fall in the first camp [no authority], but… that's not an entirely clear delineation." – 07:52).
  • On use of deadly force: “You have to show that you were in imminent fear… of death or serious physical injury…” (08:02).
  • Younes feels the officer put himself in harm’s way, instinctively building justification.
  • “I think if you look at the… videos… he was on the side of the car and was already out of danger… fired in anger or… as revenge.” (10:30)
  • She admits the first shot could be contestable, but the second and third are clearly unjustified.

Political Dimensions & Public Response (12:11–14:18)

• Younes condemns the administration’s “full-throated” defense of the officer and labeling Goode a domestic terrorist within hours.
  • “A serious administration doesn’t come out and immediately label a civilian U.S. citizen a domestic terrorist… It just conveys to the public that this was just political.” (12:56)
• She affirms right to protest: “People absolutely have a right to protest. It’s protected by the First Amendment. They should do so lawfully. But what she did was relatively minor…” (14:18)

What Should Have Happened & Systemic Critique (15:19–17:23)

• Suggests ICE should have called state police or continued peaceful attempts to get Goode to move.
• “Law enforcement doesn’t have the right to shoot people just for fleeing… they’re supposed to let you go…” (15:34)
• Raises issue that ICE officers lack training of regular police (14:48), and cites recent ICE overreach (brutal detention of a US citizen).

The Weaponization of Justice & Political Tribalism (17:56–22:32)

• Younes alleges judicial weaponization by both parties: “The justice system is being completely weaponized against the administration’s ideological enemies… both sides do it.” (18:32)
• On ICE’s role: “They’re almost becoming the kind of praetorian guard of the president who can do whatever they like and will get protection.” (19:37)
• Laments the decline of respect for civil liberties: “People are more interested in scoring political points against the other side than protecting each other’s rights against the government…” (20:52)
• Memorable quote: “This expansion of federal power and evisceration of civil liberties is very likely to come back and harm them.” (22:10)

3. Sohrab Ahmari: The ICE Officer’s Defender & Institutionalist (25:22–48:07)

Context & Contradicting Narratives (25:41–29:16)

• Ahmari dispels what he sees as “Democratic talking points,” emphasizing that Goode was not an innocent bystander but a trained ICE Watch protester who deliberately blocked ICE vehicles.
• Details the footage: Goode blocks road, is sarcastic to officers, refuses to move; her partner tells her to “drive, baby, drive” just before she attempts to drive off and the shots are fired.

Legality vs. Prudence (29:16–39:41)

• Concedes that protesting and even obstructing are not grounds to be shot, but stresses that physically blocking officers’ vehicles is illegal.
• Justifies the shooting on established legal grounds:
  • “The legal standard is, was he put in reasonable fear for his life or the life of others given the totality of circumstances?” (34:41)
  • Courts are “very deferential to cops’ subjective interpretation of what’s happening.” (35:34)
• Insists the officer was legitimately threatened even if Goode’s intent was to escape, not injure.
• Freddie Sayers presses: “Are you happy to live in a country where non uniformed federal officials can shoot women in SUVs…?”
• Ahmari’s core stance: “The responsibility for what happened lies with Renee Goode… Once you don’t listen to what law enforcement is saying… it is possible you will get shot.” (38:36)
• Admits tragedy and expresses sadness, but locates blame with Goode and her partner.

On Political and Social Consequences (39:41–48:07)

• Dismisses the idea that this incident signals blanket permission to shoot protestors:
  • “It’s a cartoonish interpretation to say it means don’t mess with ICE. If you protest them, you get shot. There’s all sorts of ways to protest ICE that don’t involve blocking their way or driving at one of them…” (41:00)
• Sayers notes brewing standoff between federal government and sanctuary cities (42:13), with local officials resisting ICE.
• Ahmari asserts the administration is merely executing its democratic mandate and existing federal law; blames local resistance for the drama.
• Acknowledges “theatrical meanness” of ICE, saying the administration “would benefit… from dialing back… a little bit, again, the theatrical meanness.” (47:02)
• Rationale for tough rhetoric: “They feel they were elected to do certain things, and they were hindered at every term… They’re like, you know what? I’m impervious to your calls to be nice, and I think that might be a mistake…” (47:22)

4. Public Opinion: Insights from David Montgomery, YouGov (50:09–58:33)

Key Polling Findings (50:20–51:12)

• 53% of Americans think the ICE agent should face criminal charges; 30% (28% in some responses) say he shouldn’t.
  • “Among people who have opinions, there’s much more sort of negative sentiment toward ICE than positive sentiment.” (51:06)
• Twice as many say use of force was not justified as say it was.

Partisan Breakdown (51:19–52:31)

• 88% of Democrats say shooting unjustified; 61% of Republicans say justified.
• “Independents,” a key swing group: 58% say not justified, 20% justified. Many are unsure, but the 2:1 margin mirrors national numbers.

Public Engagement & Media Saturation (52:31–53:48)

• “About 70% of Americans [say] they’ve seen the video… which is very high.”
  • This equates to >170 million US adults, a “Super Bowl-level” media event.
• Montgomery comments on the unprecedented reach and engagement of the story.

Political Implications (54:32–57:49)

• Sayers notes VP JD Vance’s rapid support for ICE as a calculated pitch to the Republican base.
• Montgomery: “Republicans are fairly supportive of ICE on this… The Republicans, who are more conservative and are more likely to identify as MAGA Republicans, feel even more strongly…”
• On general election risk: “If decisions like this keep happening and there continue to be policies that the Trump administration is on the wrong side of, a 2 to 1 split, conventional wisdom would suggest that would probably be bad for them politically.” (57:49)

Local Mood in Minneapolis (58:03–58:33)

• “Lots of people are very worried. Other people are very angry…” (58:03)
• Notable: “There are about 500 Minneapolis police… and over 2,000 ICE agents in the city right now. So it’s a very noticeable change in law enforcement presence.”

5. Notable Quotes & Moments by Timestamp

Jenin Younes

• "Regardless of exactly what happened, a serious administration doesn't come out and immediately label a civilian U.S. citizen a domestic terrorist." (12:56)
• "People are more interested in scoring political points against the other side than protecting each other's rights against the government." (20:52)
• "This expansion of federal power and evisceration of civil liberties is very likely to come back and harm them." (22:10)

Sohrab Ahmari

• "Protesting is certainly no reason to be shot. Even obstruction by itself is no reason to be shot in the face. That’s completely clear. However, obstruction is reason to be apprehended…" (32:43)
• "Our courts don't do that. They think like, okay, when you are the police officer and you see a big old SUV…rolling at you, that puts you in reasonable fear of your life." (36:34)
• "The responsibility for what happened lies with Renee Goode… Once you don’t listen to what law enforcement is saying… it is possible you will get shot." (38:36)
• "If you want to defend such people, I think it’s wrong to do so. But… you’re allowed to hold up placards across the street… But throwing your body or your vehicle in front of an ongoing federal law enforcement operation, that’s pretty dangerous." (41:00)
• "The administration would benefit from being ruthless about enforcing the law… And at the same time, dialing back from the top down a little bit, again, the theatrical meanness." (47:02)

David Montgomery

• "About twice as many Americans say that the use of force was not justified than justified." (50:46)
• "This is clearly an issue that has broken through. One poll found 70% of Americans say they've seen the video or a video of the killing of Renee Goode, which is very high." (52:42)
• "To the degree that the Trump administration continues doing things where there’s sort of a two to one split against them among the American people… that would probably be bad for them politically." (57:49)
• "There are about 500 Minneapolis police in the city… and there’s over 2,000 ICE agents… It’s a very noticeable change in law enforcement presence." (58:33)

6. Thematic Takeaways

• Divided Nation: The country is splitting into camps with “Rashomon-like” certainty, each seeing the same evidence as obvious proof of their own case.
• Blurring Lines: Both right and left are accused of “weaponizing” law enforcement and legal norms for political gain.
• Legal vs. Ethical: Ahmari and Younes agree that the law may shield the officer, but diverge on whether that is desirable in a free society.
• Democratic Stakes: Even as tough-on-immigration policies energize the Republican base, polling suggests the wider public could be alienated by such tactics.
• Media & Political Impact: With such high public engagement, the incident has leverage to shape national debates and elections.

[End of Summary]

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