UnHerd with Freddie Sayers – The Zohran Mamdani Debate (Nov 3, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode of UnHerd, moderated by Saurabh Amari, features a spirited debate on the motion: "Resolved: This House is Terrified by Mayor Mamdani." With Zohran Mamdani, a democratic socialist and likely next mayor of New York, dominating headlines, the panel explores whether New Yorkers should fear or welcome his impending mayoralty. The discussion centers on Mamdani’s radical proposals—police reform, universal childcare, wealth redistribution—and accusations of anti-Semitism, with the old guard and young progressives sharply divided.

Panelists

• Pro (“Should be afraid”): Miranda Devine (New York Post), Caroline Downey (National Review)
• Con (“Should not be afraid”): Ross Barkin (UnHerd & New York Magazine), Lindsey Boylan (former Cuomo staffer/whistleblower)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Statements

1. Arguments For Fearing Mamdani (Pro)

• Undermining Confidence: Caroline Downey recounts a subway incident to illustrate her fear that Mamdani’s history as a police abolitionist will result in reduced public safety.

  “He’s not interested in beefing them up, even though they’re already woefully understaffed. And when it comes to criminals, he’s more interested in hand holding than handcuffs.” (05:32)

• Alienation of Stakeholders: The wealthy, blue-collar workers, high-achieving parents, Jews, law enforcement, and commuters are all cited as groups that should feel insecure.
• Anti-Semitism and Israel: Accuses Mamdani of refusing to condemn “globalize the intifada” and not taking a clear stand against Hamas.
• Socialist Agenda: Described as a power grab; fears of radical redistribution driving productive people out.

2. Arguments Against Fearing Mamdani (Con)

• Distinguishing Fact from Fiction: Ross Barkin frames much criticism of Mamdani as based on rumor and fear-mongering.

  “What we heard just here were a mixture of fact and fiction. Right? What is he about versus what do people think he’s about?” (13:32)

• Policy Planks: Emphasis on universal childcare (funded by minor tax increases), free buses, rent freeze for rent-stabilized apartments, and working class support.
• Police Policy Reality: Mamdani once supported defunding but now plans to retain Commissioner Jessica Tisch and integrate mental health professionals with police—policies used in other states.

  “Zoran Mamdani does not support defunding the police… In fact, he’s defying DSA… by announcing he wants to appoint Jessica Tisch to be police commissioner.” (15:20)

• On Anti-Semitism: Criticizing Israel ≠ anti-Semitism; Mamdani meets with Jewish community leaders and disavows inflammatory slogans attributed to him.

The Affordability Crisis [36:00–45:00]

Pro Side

• Sanctuary City Policies Harm Locals: Miranda Devine argues that welcoming migrants increases competition for housing and jobs, worsening unaffordability for regular New Yorkers (36:07).
• Misdirected Solutions: Rent freezes and redistributive programs, she argues, are counterproductive and will backfire—landlords will neglect properties, rents will rise for everyone else.

Con Side

• Systemic Housing Woes: Ross Barkin and Lindsey Boylan blame decades-long underbuilding and loss of rent-stabilized units, not migration, for housing problems.

  “You can track this affordability problem to the migrant influx, those temporary last few years… We had an affordability problem the 2000s, and the 2010s.” (37:39, Barkin)

• Building Supply: Mamdani’s plan also includes building 200,000 affordable housing units in partnership with private developers.
• Childcare as Transformative: Universal childcare is a central promise, with examples from other cities/states supporting its feasibility.

  “If he alone does universal childcare to the scale he is promising…that on its face is bigger than pre-K. That changes the face of raising a family in New York City.” (44:17, Barkin)

Public Safety and Accusations of Extreme Radicalism [46:00–54:00]

• Pro Doubts on Genuine Change: Miranda Devine and Caroline Downey question Mamdani’s sincerity about policing, citing past rhetoric and “shape-shifting” (47:14).

  “He’s a shape-shifting chameleon. I mean, all politicians are, but he’s more slick at it than most.” (47:14, Devine)

• Western Civilization & Anti-Americanism: Caroline Downey and Devine allege that Mamdani’s worldview is anti-American, citing his late citizenship and supposed lack of patriotism—claims that Barkin and Boylan dismiss as bigotry and mischaracterization.

  “He doesn’t think of himself as an American first and foremost. So I think that disqualifies you from being…” (49:57, Downey)

• Response: Barkin highlights Mamdani’s American success story and cosmopolitanism as quintessentially New York, and pushes back on “rootless cosmopolitan” insinuations.

  “Literally there is Zohran Mamdanis throughout my childhood because that’s what New York City is. If you don't think that is New York City, well, that's why your candidates are losing.” (53:38, Barkin)

Audience Q&A & Further Exchange [55:10–69:15]

• Migrant Funding: Host Saurabh Amari queries whether Mamdani’s support for defense of migrants risks further alienating working-class voters—a group already shifting to the GOP (56:20).

  “Does he not risk further kind of alienating that block of voters...?” (56:20, Amari)

• Con Response: Boylan insists Mamdani’s focus is on kitchen-table issues: transit, childcare, housing, to help precisely those working-class voters (57:12).
• Paying for Programs: Critics raise concerns over the funding of universal childcare and wage increases (68:00), arguing that promises might not match fiscal reality.
• Unions and Schools: Devine raises concerns about public school dysfunction and how teacher unions’ power might undermine Mamdani’s goals (69:20).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |-----------|-----------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:32 | Caroline Downey | “When it comes to criminals, he’s more interested in hand holding than handcuffs.” | | 13:32 | Ross Barkin | “What is he about versus what do people think he’s about?” | | 15:20 | Ross Barkin | “Zoran Mamdani does not support defunding the police… wants to appoint Jessica Tisch…” | | 36:07 | Miranda Devine | “He’ll lead people to what they think is the promised land, right over the cliff.” | | 53:38 | Ross Barkin | “Literally there is Zohran Mamdanis throughout my childhood… that’s what New York City is.” | | 62:57 | Ross Barkin | “We support public libraries and public schools… but I guess universal childcare, we don’t?”| | 69:20 | Miranda Devine | “His policies are either tiny… or they’re enormously expensive. Have been tried elsewhere….”|

Segment Guide & Timestamps

| Segment | Duration | Details | |-----------------------------|-----------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | Opening Remarks | 01:49–04:30 | Host intro, panel intro | | First Arguments (Pro/Con) | 04:30–26:16 | Opening statements from all panelists | | Policy Discussion | 26:16–41:34 | Affordability, rent, public safety, policing | | Audience Q&A | 41:34–66:47 | Housing, teacher pay, migration, ideology | | Closing Statements | 69:20–77:05 | Each debater’s summary |

Conclusion: Tone & Outcome

The debate was heated but rarely veered off issue: speakers on both sides addressed classic NYC themes—transit, rents, schools, policing, the city’s social fabric, and perennial anxieties over “outsiders” and change. The con side argued that Mamdani’s agenda, while ambitious, is not historically unprecedented, and reflects the city’s needs. The pro side cast doubts on Mamdani’s intentions and capacity to deliver, warning of social decay and radical drift. Throughout, the city’s generational and ideological split was palpable.

For Listeners New to the Episode:
This was a dynamic, issue-driven panel featuring lively exchanges about the direction of NYC politics. Whether you're curious about local policy, debates on “radicalism” in American cities, or the mechanics of electoral change, the episode provides a wide-ranging, unvarnished view of the arguments for and against major change in one of the world’s most-watched cities.