Unholy: Two Jews on the News

Episode: Army and politicians at war – and Inside Trump’s mind with Barak Ravid
Date: November 27, 2025
Hosts: Yonit Levi & Jonathan Freedland
Guest: Barak Ravid (Correspondent, Axios/Channel 12/CNN)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Israel’s current internal turbulence, examining:

• The escalating feud between Israel’s military chief and politicians in the aftermath of October 7.
• The complexities of military and government accountability.
• Protests targeting Jewish institutions abroad amid rising fears for diaspora communities.
• A deep-dive interview with Barak Ravid, who provides rare insights into Trump’s thinking about Gaza, Israel, and US Middle East policy.
• Regular nominations for “Chutzpah” and “Mensch” of the week, offering reflections on public figures' actions.

The tone is characteristically wry, self-aware, and deeply informed, mixing personal anecdotes with pointed political analysis.

Opening: Weather, Holidays & Cultural Reflections

[00:26–09:16]

• Weather as Symbol: Yonit marvels at Tel Aviv's record November heatwave (25–34°C), underscoring fears of climate crisis.
  • Quote: "If anyone’s still trying to deny global warming, this is where we are.” – Yonit [00:56]
• Jonathan’s Response: Notes the existential concern over Israel’s future habitability, worrying over climate change’s sidelining in Israeli discourse.
  • Quote: “Nature doesn’t follow political agendas or timetables. It’s telling us loud and clear that we’ve got to do something.” – Jonathan [02:30]
• Cultural Gratitude: Yonit praises Israeli singer Yehudit Ravitz for providing solace in a country seeking comfort, sharing how legendary artists have reunited on stage to perform the classic children’s album "The 16th Sheep."
  • Quote: “It is a sort of music to the soul of a country that really needs comfort.” – Yonit [07:38]
• Personal Anecdote: Jonathan recalls introducing Ravitz on stage in London as a student, reflecting on Israel’s unique intimacy and resilience through music.
  • Quote: “These are things that are only possible really in a very small, intimate society.” – Jonathan [08:41]

Main News Segment: Army vs. Politicians in Israel

[09:22–15:59]

• The Feud: The escalating conflict between IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir and Defense Minister Israel Katz, rooted in post-October 7 accountability.

  • Yonit's Analysis: Military leadership shoulders responsibility for intelligence and operational failures, whereas the government resists doing the same.
    • Quote: “The top brass of the military did take responsibility and the government didn’t.” – Yonit [09:47]
  • Internal Politics: Disputes over military self-examination and appointments, frozen reforms, and veiled critiques by Zamir suggesting a crisis in leadership.
    • Quote: “We need a courageous, purposeful, transformative leadership that both recognizes failure and dares to drive change.” – Zamir (quoted by Yonit) [12:34]

• Jonathan’s Context: The friction is emblematic of a broader trend where the political right paints state institutions (now including the military) as part of a hostile “deep state.”

  • Quote: “It used to only be the universities and the media. It’s the law courts. It’s now the military itself.” – Jonathan [13:09]
  • Democratic Norms: Emphasizes the break with precedent—every prior security debacle prompted independent inquiry; Netanyahu now blocks this, eroding democratic accountability.
    • Quote: “Netanyahu is breaking that democratic norm. And here is the Chief of Staff reasserting it.” – Jonathan [15:30]

Double Standards & Military Dialogue with International Allies

[15:59–18:16]

• International Military Relations: Report of British Army avoiding IDF Gaza training, while allies like Canada and France quietly participate—despite critical public stances on Gaza war.
  • Yonit’s Take: Highlights the complexity and professional separation between military and political spheres among Western allies.
    • Quote: “On the one hand you’re saying…Israel is definitely, you know, guilty…But still at the same time coming to these trainings.” – Yonit [16:32]
  • Jonathan’s View: Institutional relationships run deep and often transcend public policy disputes.

Israeli Politics: Outlawing RAM & The Dance of Chutzpah

[18:16–22:38]

• Netanyahu and the United Arab List (RAM): Trump’s call to ban the Muslim Brotherhood has ripple effects, with Netanyahu signaling a move to outlaw RAM—a party once courted for coalition.
  • Yonit’s Irony: Outlines the hypocrisy of labeling RAM a threat after prior outreach, posits a possible attempt to suppress Arab Israeli electoral participation.
    • Quote: “If anyone’s still trying to deny global warming, this is where we are.” – [00:56]
  • Jonathan’s Analysis: This is classic “chutzpah”—Netanyahu aims to ban a party he once tried to bring into his coalition, knowing the Supreme Court will likely block it, thus winning either way.
    • Quote: “You get to blame them. You also get to go around the world and say, oh, we’ve got this wonderful independent judiciary.” – Jonathan [22:38]

Diaspora Tensions: Synagogue Protests in New York

[22:38–30:13]

• Incident at Park East Synagogue: Pro-Palestinian protest outside shul prompts apology from NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch to Jewish worshippers.
  • Jonathan Dissects the Dilemma: Protests targeted an aliyah event not specifically promoting settlements, blurring lines between anti-Israel and anti-Jewish action.
    • Quote: “There is so not a clear, bright dividing line between people who think they’re protesting about Israel but end up protesting against Jews.” – Jonathan [25:42]
  • Political Fallout: Anxiety among NY Jews towards incoming mayor Zoran Mamdani, who equivocates on condemning the protest, and whose subsequent White House visit with Trump only complicates the political optics.
    • Quote: “He then kind of walked it back a little bit. This is, I think, a pretty concerning thing.” – Yonit [27:34]
    • Quote: “…Trump could not have been more effusive…seeming almost kind of…dazzled a little bit by Mamdani…” – Jonathan [28:44]

Feature Interview: Inside Trump’s Mind (with Barak Ravid)

[32:32–64:04]

Trump’s Focus on Gaza:

• Has Trump “moved on”?
  • “Phase one is definitely done. The war in Donald Trump’s mind—and by the way, also in reality—the war is over.” – Barak Ravid [33:26]
  • US focus has shifted to other files (Ukraine, Venezuela); top-down style means attention and resources shift dramatically week by week.

Building a Post-War Gaza:

• The ‘Board of Peace’: US, via Tony Blair and others, building an international stabilization force and technocratic Palestinian government.

  • Decommissioning Not Disarmament: Learning from Northern Ireland, ambition is not to forcibly disarm but to negotiate (“decommission arms”) with Hamas—pragmatism over idealism.
    • “If you ask Tony Blair, I’m not sure he will use the term disarmament. He might use the term…decommissioning of arms.” – Barak Ravid [38:24]

• Sequencing Dilemmas:

  • Israel’s withdrawal, establishment of local government, and demilitarization must be delicately sequenced—no expectation for a direct military assault to finish off all Hamas fighters.

US Control over Israeli Military Operations

• American Veto: Israel requires near-constant US approval for Gaza operations, a level of oversight that’s “quite unprecedented.” [45:37]
• Lebanon Analogy: Trump administration less invested in the previous US–Lebanon agreement, allowing Israel greater operational latitude there.

Abraham Accords & Saudi Normalization

• Trump vs. MBS (Saudi Crown Prince): Trump is pushy but MBS resists, citing public opinion and insisting on progress toward a Palestinian state.
  • Quote: “[MBS said]…joining the Abraham Accords is great. I’m all in favor…but not now…Saudi society is not ready for such a move right now…” – Barak Ravid [46:46]
  • MBS calls ministers “the lunatics” and awaits a government he can work with.

Trump’s People Skills & Preferences

• Trump rewards those who yield or impress him (financially or as “strongmen”)—but still values the transactional relationship with Netanyahu, especially post-Iran conflict.
  • Quote: “With Donald Trump, you have two kind of drawers: People he likes and people he hates…Netanyahu was in the drawer of people that Trump doesn’t, and he managed…to move to the other drawer.” – Barak Ravid [50:52]

US–Syria Relations

• Trump’s effusive reception of Syrian leader Ahmed Ashara troubles Israel, which worries about growing US–Syria closeness.

Ukraine-Russia Hostilities

• Trump’s “Real Estate-ism”: Attempts to broker peace resemble real estate transactions—a blunt, party-to-party proposal, moving the goalposts until a deal materializes (or enough parties simply acquiesce).
  • “[Trump] just put out a statement and said, both parties have agreed the war is over. Even though…neither party agreed…” – Barak Ravid [59:11]
  • Further attempts to apply the “Gaza method” to Ukraine-Russia peace.

Barak Ravid’s Direct Line to Trump

• Unique Access:
  • Barak explains how he regularly calls Trump directly—no PR intermediaries, just making the call himself.
    • Quote: “He’s a very accessible person…people just call him and he pick up. So call him and he’ll pick up.” – Barak Ravid [62:28]
  • Yonit jokes about the famous cartoon: “‘No, you hang up! No, you hang up!’ That was like one of the funniest moments.” [63:47]

Chutzpah & Mensch of the Week Awards

Chutzpah Nominations

[64:20–72:22]

• Nigel Farage:

  • Alleged to have engaged in antisemitic taunting as a teenager (e.g., “Hitler was right,” gas hissing, etc.); now, as a front-runner for UK Prime Minister, he rationalizes it as playground “banter.”
    • Quote: “What he’s saying is…telling a Jewish pupil ‘gas them, Hitler was right’…to be playground banter. I think that means this is now an issue for the Nigel Farage of today.” – Jonathan [65:30]

• Peter Beinart:

  • Criticized for delivering a speech at Tel Aviv University, then apologizing to his pro-Palestinian base for doing so, thus angering all sides.
    • Quote: “Either you come to Israel and you give your speech, or you don’t come to Israel and give the speech…But come do the speech and then apologize for it—I mean, that is just in my eyes, it just seems ridiculous.” – Yonit [68:30]

Mensch of the Week

[72:22–74:36]

• Michael Bond & Paddington Bear:
  • Creator of Paddington Bear, drawing on his childhood memory of seeing refugee children from the Kindertransport. Paddington embodies the virtue of welcoming the vulnerable, making Bond a cultural mensch for embedding this message so deeply in British life.
    • Quote: “For doing that, for sort of sealing that memory deep in British popular culture and in the culture, I think a mensch nomination for both Michael Bond and for his beloved creation, Paddington Bear.” – Jonathan [74:16]

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Climate Change:

  • “Nature doesn’t follow political agendas or timetables. It’s telling us loud and clear that we’ve got to do something.” – Jonathan [02:30]

• On Political Accountability:

  • “We need a courageous, purposeful, transformative leadership that both recognizes failure and dares to drive change.” – Zamir (quoted by Yonit) [12:34]

• On Trump’s Foreign Policy:

  • “The war in Donald Trump’s mind—and by the way, also in reality—the war is over.” – Barak Ravid [33:26]
  • “If you ask Tony Blair, I’m not sure he will use the term disarmament. He might use the term…decommissioning of arms.” – Barak Ravid [38:24]
  • “[MBS] said…Saudi society is not ready for such a move right now…an irreversible, credible and time-bound path for a Palestinian state [is needed].” – Barak Ravid [46:46]

• On Beinart’s Predicament:

  • “You did not only today discover that Tel Aviv is in Israel, so don’t come do the speech, and then apologize for it.” – Yonit [68:50]

Structural Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:26] Weather, climate, culture
• [09:22] IDF-government feud post-October 7
• [15:59] Double standards in international military ties
• [18:16] Netanyahu, RAM, and election maneuvering
• [22:38] NY synagogue protests, diaspora anxiety
• [32:32] Barak Ravid interview: Trump, Gaza, and the region
  • [33:26] Trump on Gaza: “Job done”
  • [38:24] Tony Blair approach: “Decommissioning”
  • [45:37] US oversight of Israeli operations
  • [46:46] Trump–MBS: Abraham Accords & normalization
  • [53:16] Trump’s drawers: people he likes & hates
  • [62:28] Barak’s ‘direct line’ to Trump
• [64:20] Chutzpah & Mensch of the week awards

Closing Tone

The episode blends pointed analysis with their trademark banter. Whether reflecting on Israeli cultural icons, the nuances of diaspora politics, or the mechanics of US–Israel relations at the highest levels, Yonit and Jonathan remain witty, self-aware, and always illuminating—a must-listen for anyone trying to untangle the state of Jewish and world affairs in 2025.