← Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Ceasefire talk, hostage politics and Logan Roy
00:46:29
A US-Iran deal appears to be taking shape — and Israel isn't in the room. As diplomatic back-channels buzz and American strikes on Iran continue under a ceasefire that apparently requires bombing to maintain, Netanyahu finds himself watching from the outside: no seat at the table, no answers on the nuclear file, no movement on proxies. Meanwhile, two hostage parents — whose sons were held in Gaza at the same time — are entering Israeli politics from opposite ends of the spectrum, a story that says more about where the country is heading than any poll. Plus: the Caroline Glick appointment, the Israel Solidarity Parade in New York, antisemitism in London's British Museum, and a Chutzpah award for a congressman whose concession speech managed to be both funny and deeply troubling. This week's Mensch of the Week will leave you wanting to move to Tel Aviv.
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- [00:00]
A
There's talk of a deal between the United States and Iran, but Israel apparently left in the cold, and some of the hostage families of Israel enter the political fray on very different sides. It's unholy. I'm Jonathan Friedland in London.
- [00:17]
B
And I'm Yunik Levi in Tel Aviv. Unholy. Two Jews on the news. I mean, so much news, really. There's just so much going on. How is this possible? We should start having a daily podcast. I'm just saying, Jonathan, I mean, you're gonna have to see me every day, because we have to get, like, our minds wrapped around all of this.
- [00:45]
A
No, there is so much news. And the funny thing is the thought that this put in my mind is, given how much news there is, how on earth do all these world leaders who've got big decisions to make and take have time to be apparently as socially media plugged in as they are? I look at the likes of Donald Trump particularly, and he just seems to be on, sort of on his phone, you know, more than my kids, I mean, and more than I am. How. Where are the hours in the day? But I mean, and the stuff they are putting on, on, you know, online as well. Did I have to say, it got me this week. Both of them, Trump, Netanyahu, they're both at it.
- [01:23]
B
Yeah. I mean, what do you want to start with? Because I want to talk about Netanyahu's video.
- [01:28]
A
Go with that.
- [01:31]
B
So it is a. He. He sent this out for Shavuot, the celebration. We talked about it a lot last week, but it was a holiday. And what he posted was this video of a family. There's no other way to describe it. A kind of stereotypical leftist family in which there's a son, a daughter, and parents. And the son says, I have something to say to you guys. And so the parents think, obviously you're going to say you're gay. We're fine with it. Don't worry about it. He says, no, no, I'm coming out to you as a BIBI supporter. And then the mother gets cardiac arrest. The father says, you should have said you were gay. You know, the whole thing and how people are. And the sort of underlining line of the video is kind of saying people are discriminated against in the country because they are Netanyahu supporters. A lot of criticism for this, particularly because it came out on a holiday, and a lot of people are saying, wait a minute, you're the Prime Minister of the country, you're celebrating a holiday here at Shavuot. You're not supposed to, you know, do the whole dividing parts of the country. So that was one video, and it kind of. And we talked about this this week, you and I, kind of offline of how it reminded me of that video, the AI Video again, around the world. Trump and. And Stephen Colbert.
- [02:36]
A
Yeah, there was this video of Donald Trump appearing to put Stephen Colbert in a big dumpster bin and then doing his little YMCA dance afterwards. Yeah. People will say it's a joke, but to me, the gag there is. I've silenced another. And when there are fears about censorship and free speech, I think that's not that funny. As for the Bibi one, there's this idea that still he and his supporters are the marginalized, oppressed minority and the lefty elites, the dad with the ponytail, they're the majority. Just look at the polling. That is not the case in Israel. The kind of people who have the politics depicted in that family in the video are a small percentage now, pretty much a fringe in Israel. And yet for 30 years, he's pretended they run the country and that he's the sort of plucky outsider. It's ridiculous. He runs the country and has done for decades. So that video and the timing of Shavuot, et cetera, is all just part of it. But the two of them, how do they have all this time to be on social media so much?
- [03:36]
B
Can I quote a fictional president, Andrew Shepard, of the American President? Rob Reiner is a brilliant movie written by Aaron Sorkin. Right. We have serious problems and we need serious people to solve them. This isn't serious. None of it is. Neither is that poster that Netanyahu posted of, like, him and Trump looks a little bit like a Chuck Norris film. Right? And says at the bottom, iran will never have a nuclear weapon. I mean, again, I've never been a leader. And if you ever visit my house at 7am I can't even lead three kids out of the house and to their school. But I would say that the one thing that a leader needs is to give a nation a sense of security. There is a serious person, the hand on the helm is confident. What is all of this? I mean, this isn't serious stuff. And when you, you know, you look at the response that Gaddy Eisenhut's media team had to Netanyahu's video, I think it, it kind of underscores that exact point where you see what they did actually quite quite brilliantly, is they took the, the kind of soundtrack, the sound of the video we described. But the Dinner is of an empty table. The whole house is burned up and hole ridden. And it's very clear to every Israeli seeing what it looks like a house after the holiday of Simchato, after October 7th. And what he says is, you know, this is what we should be talking about. And, and, and I think that that is the sort of response. And you're, you're saying, you know, obviously we're going to see more and more in this. Both leaders, both Trump and Netanyahu have an election coming up, each their own kind of different election, but we're going to see more and more of this. It's not serious enough. That's what I mean.
- [05:14]
A
Yeah, I mean I'm being delicate after your American present reference. I'm thinking of Logan Roy in that much repeated clip saying you're not serious people. It's the same sort of thing. And I did also notice below the line, you know, the responses to the Bibi video were people saying that point that the, the big issue for a lot of people was the shovel, there was an empty chair at the table, not that somebody coming out with ho ho as a bbist. So that is going to be that. I think that's, we're getting to beginning to see the outlines of the campaign really that's going to come when it comes which one side doing all it can to change the subject and not talk about October 7th and the other, the anti biber camp just one way or another trying to pin October 7th on him. And you saw that in the responses, I think to this video. As we say, it can't distract though from a hugely sort of news heavy week and the sort of confusion because each day could bring either the news of an agreement between the US And Iran or an escalation. There were, were raid strikes, American strikes on Iran on Sunday. They were again overnight into Thursday. White House folks are saying this is done actually to maintain the ceasefire, that we're not breaking the ceasefire, we're maintaining it by ensuring that Iran doesn't have the power to break it, which is a sort of very funny way of thinking about a ceasefire. But meanwhile, diplomatic activity all around this supposed memorandum of understanding, a one page document that, you know, one minute Donald Trump is saying is imminent and great, and the next seems to be out of reach, I'm guessing. And you know, I suspect, I know that in Israel people are waiting but you know, anxiously wanting to see what's, what are the terms here.
- [07:09]
B
So that is indeed something that was concerning for Israelis ever since Trump kind of walking this back a little, saying, you know, we're still waiting for a great deal right now. They want a good deal. And, and also setting this slightly strange, or not entirely understand, understandable conditions, saying, you know, maybe if certain countries would join the Abraham Accords, then we'd sign a deal. Is it actually a condition for the deal? He means Saudi Arabia more than anything, and maybe Qatar. We're sort of in this, still in this gray area. As of Thursday evening, Israel time. It has been reported that American and Iranian negotiators have agreed on terms to extend the ceasefire and open formal talks on Iran's nuclear program, but still pending Trump's approval. And there's a pattern here, isn't there, Jonathan? A pattern emerging that there's a ceasefire and then negotiations and not all the details are worked out.
- [07:57]
A
Yeah. And when you say pattern, you mean because we see this in, not just in, in the Iran conflict, but, yeah, Lebanon, Gaza. Where?
- [08:05]
B
Gaza, worryingly, yes.
- [08:07]
A
And the, the promise is always the one final blow. The, you know, that we will do the last push that will solve this. And in each case, it isn't that way. Just on a couple of those things. I mean, one question I was thinking about, because this has really been so bad for Donald Trump just domestically, the surging gas prices, the impact on his pol ratings, which are seriously underwater, including particularly on the economy, which was one of his great strengths going into re election in 2024 and with midterms looming, this is all been disastrous for him. And I've been thinking, will he punish Netanyahu for the role Netanyahu played? And often on the podcast, I've stressed that. I don't buy this idea that it was entirely Netanyahu. I just think Netanyahu knew which buttons to press. Ego buttons, vanity buttons, buttons about legacy and place in history. But Trump is big enough and old enough to make his own decisions. But will he punish, will he say to himself, it was down to you, Netanyahu, you led me to this. And what I've been realizing, looking at the term so far, is this is the punishment, first of all, by keeping Netanyahu out of the room. I mean, so that you Israelis are learning about this. We understand not exactly the way the rest of us are with sort of news reports, but with they're relying on, you know, intelligence agents on the Iranian side who will tell them how the talks are going. They've got, you know, moles inside the Iranian regime who are keeping them informed, and little nuggets they pick up from allies and so on. They're not in the room, they're not really in the loop. That's a form of punishment. But second, I think are those terms, because to leave Israel, as it were, unanswered on the things that drove them into this, which is the nuclear threat, ballistics, and I would add, proxies where there's no movement on that. So Iran is without any contrition on any of those areas, let alone action that is, in a way, its own form of punishment, because it means Netanyahu has to face those electors saying all those things I promised you from this war. We didn't get any of them. And so it seems to me this move on the Abraham Accords is a kind of consolation prize. It's saying, okay, you fought this war, as you say, Israelis sat in shelters, they didn't get what they were hoping for and didn't expect and wanted. But look, we've got a couple more parties to the Abraham Accords. I think it's for the birds myself. I don't think that Saudi Arabia is about to recognize Israel and join these accords right now because of this deal. But it's an attempt, I think, to use an inappropriate metaphor given the region, it's a lipstick on a pig effort. I think the pig being offend Iranians. I'll offend Iranians and Israelis.
- [11:00]
B
Let's offend everyone. Let's use a metaphor that can offend everyone across the region, maybe.
- [11:04]
A
But the lipstick on a pig idea is just, this is something so unappetized, this deal, and you're trying to prettify it a bit with a little bit of garnish about the Abraham Accords. It's not going to fly. This pig won't fly.
- [11:17]
B
So. So I'm going to say a few things, not about Barnard animals, if I may. One is that we're talking about this, what it is doing internally to Netanyahu and to Trump. And you're right, it's, it's not good for either of them. And this explains a little bit about how we started our show, because if, if things are not going great, let's just throw all the attention right in deflected and let's talk about the Colbert video and let's talk about the, you know, offensive video that Netanyahu did, because they'd rather we talk about that than we talk about actual substance. So they succeeded in this episode of unholy as well. But to the issue of punishment, look, I think there is a lot we don't understand about the relationship between Netanyahu and Trump. I think Trump likes Netanyahu. I think he likes strong men in general and that's what he thinks Netanyahu is. I wouldn't necessarily use the word punishment yet. We're in an election season in Israel. We may maybe see Trump arriving here helping Netanyahu in any way that he can and remind you what he's saying about Netanyahu's pardon. But I think that what he is doing is definitely restraining Netanyahu. I mean, look at what is happening in Lebanon. Essentially the United States is saying to Israel, you're not going anywhere near Beirut. Now there are explosive drones hitting Israeli soldiers in Lebanon and in Israel all the time and, and killing those soldiers only yesterday. And Netanyahu can't respond to the military, can't respond in a way it wants to. United States is restraining it in a way that is, I don't want to say unprecedented in this, the history of two countries, but definitely very irregular. So all of that, again, I wouldn't use the term punishment, but all of that is restraining Netanyahu in many ways at this point. He is not in the situation he would have wanted to be a few months before an election.
- [13:07]
A
We talked last week, I think about the, the flotilla, this self described Gaza aid flotilla of internationals that were apprehended in international waters and then detainees were brought to Israel. And the video that went really viral around the world of Itamar Ben gvir, the national security minister, taunting them as their hands were zip tied and they were bound in sort of what here in the Western media is described as sort of ISIS style pose. Since then, several of those pro Palestinian activists have alleged that they were subjected to abuse, including sexual abuse while in detention. The organizers say there are at least 15 cases of sexual assaults, including rape. The reason I particularly mention it is partly because of what we talked about last week on the podcast in our Tuesday conversation with Kochav Elkayam Levi, who headed up the Civil Commission on sexual violence on October 7th. And she just made this point that, you know, that how angry she and many, many others rightly were with the demand around the world, the skeptical reaction that was received after October 7th. Show me the evidence. One leading so called feminist or supposed feminist said, and Kochov said, don't stand on the other side of the world and question these women. And I've never in my life met a feminist figure that said, or a women's rights activist that said, show me the evidence. It's not what we do, we believe. I just want to sort of leave that there because I think a lot of people will just instinctively shrink from these very, very disturbing and shocking claims made by these pro Palestinian activists. I think the lesson from what Kochav was saying was whatever your ideological view of these things, if these claims are made, they at least have to be treated the same way, whoever is making them. And so these serious and disturbing claims and I'm sure, you know, many people will hope that they are really investigated properly. So that's just a note on that.
- [15:18]
B
So on that note I would say this. First of all, I applaud what Kohav said and she's right in the sense of these things have to be investigated and if they indeed happened to be punished, there's no question. I just think we should emphasize and be completely confident in saying that what Kochav described and what she wrote in her report about the sexual violence on October 7 and since to hostages is of an entirely different order, we are talking of something else entirely of systematic sadistic sexual abuse that was that its goal was to terrorize and to humiliate. We went into all of that in that episode and I highly recommend our listeners listen. I mean when you hear someone like Arbel Yehud who went through 482 days of captivity saying that she was abused every single day, then you understand the magnitude that we're talking about. I'm just going back to the detainees again of course should be investigated, but that story should be compared to other detainees in other places around the world and not in any way to what the story of I think the sexual abuse of October 7th is. That is the point I was going to make to the note.
- [16:35]
A
No, no, absolutely. And I wasn't making a point about comparison. I was making a, about the principle of not being skeptical as it were when it's the accused are on one's own side and being very non skeptical and the other way. We just have to approach this with that, with that seriousness. I think there is, you know, the clock is ticking on Israel elections. It's also an uncertainty. I mean there's so much uncertainty with all this news we're talking about about when exactly is that the point in
- [17:03]
B
the episode that every week now is like you tell, tell me, take out the calendar, tell me when elections happen.
- [17:08]
A
Well, actually I was going to avoid that temptation. I know you don't. But, but, but you, but the 90 day thing means some days are now being struck off because it could.
- [17:19]
B
Yes, some days are struck off to
- [17:20]
A
explain to people you have to give 90 days notice and Therefore it now can't be, say, June, July, August. It couldn't be August 28th because there's not 90 days.
- [17:28]
B
It's not going to be September 1st either. That's what it looks like. If you really want to mark tentatively, then do it on September 15th or more likely October 20th or the actual date, which is October 27th. I think what is interesting and what happened this week that I would want to shed some light on is two stories of two hostages parents who are entering the political arena. This is a fascinating phenomenon. I don't know how much it will grow till the elections. But let's talk about these two people. One of them, Einav Sengauker, famously this mother fighting for her son to be released. Matan Sengauk, who was eventually released on the very last hostage deal, October 13th, after 738 days with him. Also we should say enough Sengaukar in some sort of conversation with Yair Golan to join the Israeli left. Very interesting. This is a woman who was a Netanyahu, staunch Netanyahu supporter. October 7 changed her mind completely. She became one of his fiercest critics on the other side of the political map, a man named Svika Mo. I don't think we've ever mentioned him, but this is a very interesting case. Svika Mohr is the father of Eitan Mo, who was also a hostage in Gaza the exact same time that Matan Tsongaoka was held. Also released on October 13, 2025. Tvika Mor, one of the very few voices who opposed a hostage deal. Now this is, you know, it's, it's hard to, I think, think about this, particularly if you're outside of Israel. Your son is held by Hamas, you know he's being tormented, you know he's being tortured. How on earth can you be against a hostage deal? What Tvika mole said was, look, we have to win this war against Hamas, Hamas, we have to crush Hamas. Because if Hamas isn't crushed, if Hamas is allowed to remain as some sort of power in Gaza, this will continue to happen to us. And I as a father want my son home. But thinking on a larger scale what is right for the national interest. I don't want a hostage deal. It's a remarkable thing to say. And by the way, there were chunks of Israeli society who thought like him. One of them is Bezale Smotrich. And I'm telling you this because beside is the one who recruited Svika Mol to be part of his party, the religious Zionism. It's a very Interesting move, by the way. I would have thought we would see more and more either of hostage families or of people who were, you know, victims of October 7th or the family was in politics. We're seeing a little bit of that. Sharon Sharabi, Ali Sharabi's brother, who's joining Lieberman and others. I think we. We might, you know, see more of that.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'm just remembering partly the way listeners reacted every time they heard Rachel Golbo Polish on this show. We would get messages saying, why isn't she the Prime Minister? She's the leader Israel needs. I think people speak sometimes in similar vein about the political voice of her husband, John Golbo Pollen, also somebody whose voice will be heard in the country. It's a sort of parable that these two parents who went, endured on some level the same fate, go in. Absolutely. That's about as diametrically opposite a direction you could go in. Right. Really, Yahya Golan is one end of the spectrum, Bezalal Smotridge the other, more or less. I mean, you know, you could quibble, but I think the story, the narrative of Einar Zangalka is extraordinary. The idea of, I mean, just thinking like a sort of political operative for a moment, that is exactly. If you're on the left, you're Iyaiyya Golan. That's exactly what you need is people who were with Bibi, who have come over, who've made that huge journey politically. Because the problem, the left always have is that the idea that it's somehow predictable. The usual suspect, the old guard, kibbutz, Ashkenazi, that crowd. We know who you are. It's the unexpected voice that actually gets people to listen. And this would be exactly that. As for Tzvikom, I mean, it's sort of. I agree with you, to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who doesn't just think of their own immediate family needs. It's very hard, very hard to get one's head around that. And, you know, you don't want to.
- [21:37]
B
He became the moral compass. Yeah. But he became the moral compass of that group, particularly in the Israeli right. That said, and it's a legitimate claim, right, to make, we want the war to be over and then bring back the hostages. And he became their sort of moral because of that weight carrying, the fact that he said, I don't want my. I want my son back, but I think it's more important to end the war first, 100%.
- [21:59]
A
So that's the constituency, in some ways, I would most like to hear from an answer to this question which is sure, you wanted the end of the war. Has it come? Did this war deliver for you?
- [22:10]
B
So that what they'll tell you is that you forced that the other side, the anti BB camp, forced us to stop earning this war. And that is it proves exactly what we were saying. This line in Israeli politics is going to continue even after Netanyahu. Right. Steps down this kind of argument that we're alluding to here, but it definitely is part of Israel's society. By the way, maybe we should also mention that this week saw an important milestone in Israel's legal history and political history. Six years to the day since Netanyahu's trial began. And if we're talking about camps, then what is interesting here that the anti Bibi camp and the Bibi camp would agree on one thing. It is probably impossible to have a prime Minister in the most difficult or challenging times in Israel's history also stand trial. What the anti Bibi camp will take from this is he shouldn't have been allowed to become prime minister. And what the BB camp will take from this is of course, then just stop the trial and let's, you know, get on with our lives. But it does say something about maybe the advantages of a jury system. Nothing in your country would ever last six years if people had to get back to their lives and make decisions, right?
- [23:15]
A
It's quite true. If you had a judge this although they can go on too because everything has gone perfectly today. But trial or no, he is still the Prime Minister and he still gets the power of patronage that comes with being Prime Minister, including I have to say, one very eye catching appointment in the diplomatic service. Yonit.
- [23:37]
B
Yes, eye catching indeed. Our correspondent Here on channel 12 definitely reported this week that Netanyahu is considering to appoint for Israel's Consul General in New York, Carolyn Glick. Now we should say a few things about that. She is a conservative, one could say far right commentator, author, a journalist, a Jewish American leader wrote to me this week. This isn't an appointment. This is an insult, end quote. And what it means is that she has been, I mean in all kinds of areas, but particularly when it comes to comes to conservatives and reforms, reform Americans. Very, very, I think critical would be a delicate way to say it. Two quotes that just jumped to mind, but you can find 3,000 online. One of them is that liberal Jews can't defend Judaism. That's one quote of hers. Another is the only reason the Palestinian people were invented was to annihilate the nation of Israel. Now, when you look at just recent polls, this came out in the forward today, that nearly half of American Jews under, under the age of 35 now support a binational state instead of Israel. You're not going to talk to these people or convince them by saying that Palestinian people were just invented to annihilate Israel. I mean, that is not the conversation that can be held between, you know, in this kind of very delicate era of the relationship between liberal Jews and Israel. To say nothing of what is going on in New York, to say nothing of who the mayor of New York is. I mean, this is just. Well, that is what it is.
- [25:14]
A
Yeah. I mean, it is a very lengthy back catalog. You know, people have picked up on this point about her insults to progressive Jews. It's usually Muslims and Islam that is on the receiving end of her rhetoric. You know, she is very, very frequently accused of being bigoted in her attitudes to those people. You know, it just shows you he's governing only for the base now to delight his own people. And, you know, it's another thing that will make life for American Jews incredibly hard. It brands Israel in the eyes of Americans as only a project of the super far right. If you're not on the far, far right of American politics, then Israel is not for you. That's the message this sends. And I think also it just suggests that the, you know, despite everybody saying, saying, including here, that the relationship between the United States and Israel, which is. It's been the most important strategic asset really for, for 50, 60 years by, you know, most people's estimation, that he's ready to risk all of that. He doesn't care about that. He just will just throw some more red meat to his own base. It's another terrible, terrible decision. And I think that that source who spoke to you and said insult is, you know, is right. This person is really an extremist and. But, you know, who will be dispatched to a city that just elected Zoran Mamdani? It's a progressive city. And really, Consul General to New York is bigger than that. It's really for. It's larger than just that city. It's somebody who speaks to all of America. I just think it shows you how far gone Netanyahu is. He was not in this place, place early. I was no fan of early Netanyahu, believe me, but he was not in that place. He understood that. He, you know, I, I've moved, but he's, but he's, you know, the idea of diplomatic Considerations of being of keeping both wings to fly the plane. You do, you know, you're not needlessly insulting an important ally. Those things used to matter to him a bit and he's not in that place anymore. And just the damage this was cause just deepens on already open. And as if to highlight and dramatize the sensitivity around this issue, the timing is such that we are just going to get the annual Israel Solidarity Parade in New York. I mean, there were plenty of people, Israel supporters, who were relieved when Israel did not win Eurovision the other day. Funnily enough, we didn't talk about it much. They came second and they were relieved because they thought, you know, good, don't make it a target. Because if Israel was the host, it would be boycotts and people withdrawing and it's just better not to. And I just wonder if there are people in New York who are thinking, oh, this is all we need now, because it's just going to become another site for protest and counter protest and argument. The Caroline Glick thing is going to be part of it. You know, these things come around. It's just, it's, it's, it's too difficult at the moment. And so I do wonder how the organizers are feeling about the Israelites Israel parade when, you know, as you said, that polling number, a younger generation is not just indifferent anymore, they're moving into hostility. Young Jewish generation we're talking about.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'll just say in parentheses, the joke was Israel in Israel was, it's a good thing we didn't win because we don't have time, place for all the representatives of all different countries in our safe rooms. Right. So that's a good thing.
- [28:47]
A
Right?
- [28:47]
B
That was a joke here. But going back to the Israel parade, look, first of all, I think, think it's important to say the first time in decades that the mayor of the arguably most important Jewish city in the world is not going to attend. And that says something. It says something about him and it says something about where we are in the, in the, in the conversation where Israel is. Obviously, he's a harsh critic of Israel and he calls himself an anti Zionist, but all of this, I mean, this used to be this sort of event that everyone could just rally around, and now it. The mayor of the city is not coming, which is something to see. We will see what kind of parade it is. Is it, you know, davka, the word we used to like to use here a lot, paradoxically, will it be a year in which we'll see a huge kind of turnout because the community feels so embattled or the other way around, we don't know. But it's going to happen on Sunday. In the similar vein, we see Governor of Pennsylvania Josh Shapiro talking about aipac. We talked about this, I think a lot with our interviewee on Tuesday from Franklin Foer, who are discussing aipac will just say what Josh Shapiro said. He said it's, he was warning of this kind of dangerous effort to target AIPAC supporters in the Democratic Party. Maybe you should hear what Franklin Foer said about the relationship to apec, which, which used to be a kind of mainstream thing. Definitely also for Democrats. Let's hear that.
- [30:09]
C
I don't think I expected on October, you know, in the months that followed October 7th, that taking some vow against AIPAC would be the primary litmus test that it would take to get elected in a Democratic primary. And I'm, I'm, I can't tell you how concerned I am just about that fact because there are lots of debates that we can have about Israeli policy. But when AIPAC becomes the symbol of it becomes the debate when it's not about settlements and it's not about Lebanon and it's about aipac, it's really about a cabal of Jewish billionaires who are throwing around their weight. And that is almost the most classical manifestation of antisemitism that I can think of. And in every race that becomes the test now.
- [31:02]
A
So to be clear, when you see those people, those Democrats saying take the vow and I'm not going to take any money from AIPAC or condemning aipac, are you, are you suggesting they are furthering an anti Semitic trope, even acting out of an anti Semitic impulse? Is that what you're arguing here?
- [31:24]
C
You know, it's, I, I don't want to question their motives per se, but I think that we're, when we talk about the atmosphere and we talk about the way in which American society kind of probably subconsciously is drifting into a more anti Semitic state, I think that that is in fact can just further evidence of it. Part of the problem is, is that our debates over Israel in the United States are not being conducted in a way that avoids all of the dangers of anti Semitism.
- [31:55]
A
So you can hear more of Franklin Fau on our Unholy Conversations. He was our guest on Tuesday and just really insightful about the whole place American jury finds itself in. He, of course, the author of a landmark essay in the Atlantic, the Golden Age of Jewish America is ending. And he develops that theme, it's one of those things where on the one hand, there's what APAC itself is doing. We might come on to talk about that a little bit in our awards at the end of the show where it is, you know, flexing muscle in all kinds of contests. But it's. I think what Frank is really talking about is the way it is depicted, where it isn't about itself as just another lobby like the gun lobby or the Cuba lobby. It's invested with all this other imagery which does tap into a whole, you know, history of, of anti Semitic tropes. And it's just one of those, one more thing that people are getting alarmed by the, the tectonic plates are shifting very quickly. It's happening very, very swiftly. And there are two sides to this. I think, you know, there's a change in American politics for sure. But as I think we discussed at some length with Frank, Israel was a bipartisan issue. And it's, you know, very largely Benjamin Netanyahu who changed that. He actively courted one side of the aisle, not the other, and often took great pleasure in insulting one side of the aisle, Democrats and just making Israel seem a Republican only issue. To this day, I do not understand why he thought that would ever benefit Israel. Obviously, having both parties, parties sympathetic to Israel's existence, not its government, but its existence, Democrats and Republicans, was better for Israel than saying insulting Barack Obama, but courting John Boehner when he was speaker of the Republican House. But here we are now where we are. It has turned into a partisan issue. And it means someone like Mamdani can avoid that parade without paying much of a price. Because. Because who on his side is going to object, really? You know, he can say, look, Israel is a Republican thing. They've made it a Republican issue. We don't have to celebrate this thing anymore. And I do think some of that blame, large part, rests with the Israeli Prime Minister.
- [34:14]
B
I just want to say I don't think that a large part of it rests in the lap of the Prime Minister. He's definitely somewhat to blame for taking Israel into a kind of making it a partisan issue. But even if we kind of go back to what Franklin Farrer was saying, right, he said that the part of the problem is that our debates over Israel and the United States are not being conducted in a way that avoids all the dangers of anti Semitism. And when you think about an organization like AIPAC and you turn that into a litmus test for are you a good Democrat or not? If you Denounce aipac. That has tones, and he spoke about that as well. That has really concerning tones of what are you actually saying here? That a lobby that has to do with Israel and with the Jewish state has, you know, too much influence, then you're already in realms that are also having something to do with anti Semitism as well. And I think that when we look at the fraught relationship, it's sometimes tempting to blame only Netanyahu for it. But I don't think it's.
- [35:13]
A
Sorry. Misunderstanding his fault. I was speaking really specifically a bit about it no longer being a bipartisan, consensual issue that I think is largely on Netanyahu, who changed the geometry of the relationship. The anti Semitism that is now in this discourse. Of course, I'm not putting that on him. And so the anti Semitism is the problem of the anti Semites. I'm saying that the notion of this as being an issue which was common ground between the two political parties, that over a process of a decade and a half, has been dismantled by Netanyahu, who just went to war with the Obama administration. Rather than thinking, I need to get. Keep that. That is a separate thing that, you know, of course there's connections, but that's a separate thing from the, you know, the free sort of loose anti Semitic talk that now is around and that Frank was rightly identifying. So I think they're different.
- [36:04]
B
Yeah. And it's around everywhere. And by the way, he said something that, that stayed with me throughout the week, which was, I had no idea anti Semitism would prove to be such a potent business model. And this is also, also connected next to what we're saying this week. Dan Bilzerian had this whole tweet. The man has 2 million followers on, on X. And this whole tweet about basically how Jews control the media. Right. He's just going through all the companies and saying, and this is controlled by a Jew. Right. This is kind of discourse that I don't think we could have imagined five years ago, ten years ago. Now it's. It's fine for anyone to just say that kind of these kinds of texts. We've talked about Nick Fuentes, we talked about Tucker Carlson. I think this is another thing that we should mention. In this kind of haze, we are now in very dangerous areas.
- [36:49]
A
We are.
- [36:50]
B
I'm scared to say that, but it's true.
- [36:51]
A
I think so. And Dan Bilzerian may not be known to many, but he is an influencer of sorts. He's got quite a lot of reach. He is seeking, who knows, he has a chance, the Republican nomination in Florida to run against an incumbent Democrat and says that I want to push out the big fat Jew. Randy Fink, I think is the name of his prospective opponent. But he says it, he doesn't just sort of say, you know, Israel advocate. He's there saying big fat Jew. And we're in different territory here that's going on in the United States. Just a note that this, this stuff is, which gathers momentum by the way, all the time. There's more and more of this. Just a note about something here in London. The British Museum, a world class institution, had an event marked for Jewish Culture Month which was on. And I really want to stress this on ancient Israel and Judah. This was going to talk about archeology. This was a scholar talking about the ancient world. They've postponed that lecture because they said that we want to reschedule it for a time when we can organize proper security and so on. I think this is really significant in this sense. This was about the ancient world. If there were people organizing and they discovered there were people registering to attend who they believed were going to disrupt. This is now getting to that territory, I think, where it's not just any gathering of Jews. I think that, that, you know, that's a, maybe a separate point. It's any connection with Israel at all, including biblical or historic, with the land of Israel will be branded forbidden and unacceptable and off limits. And I sort of made a joke to somebody a few months ago that how long before synagogues become boycotted and picketed because inside there are people saying prayers for Zion and for Jerusalem and therefore that can be branded as Zionist. I meant it sort of jokingly the fact that this is happening, this is nothing to do with the contemporary state of Israel, let alone the Israeli government. This is about biblical land of Israel. This tells me that more and more the only acceptable Jewish demonstrations in public life will be those that have no association at all with even the land of Israel, with Hebrew culture, with, and of course they're all Jewish. Jewish culture does, I mean, it's going to be a litmus test that has a sort of medieval quality to it, which is you must shed everything in your culture that can be traced back to this land. So if you're, you know, if you're playing the violin and it's Yiddish, okay, we might just allow that maybe until they perhaps discover which Alphabet Yiddish uses and then that would be picketed and boycotted. So I, I, this, this leapt out at me as being being a sign that the range, the scope of the anti Israel movement is getting wider and wider and it's sort of going to include more and more of Jewish life in its an alarming development.
- [40:06]
B
I really agree. And I think that the, when we think about it, the genie out of the bottle, the war in Gaza that brought all of this out has been over since October. That's not, not that doesn't make a difference to any of the people, including the people that you just mentioned.
- [40:21]
A
Well, it relates a bit to what we were saying about these wars that don't quite end. And, you know, so people read in the papers about attacking Hamas's new military commander and so they say it's not over. But I, but I absolutely take your point. But a lot of people did think there would be an easing of this tension after the ceasefire and it hasn't come.
- [40:37]
B
And we should also throw into that a very worrying mix. The story coming out of Toronto this week, a Jewish girl missing. Esther Biran or Esti, posters of her, of course, you know, being hung by people who are looking for her, her family or her people who, who love her. And those posters being torn down, which, you know, of course echoes what was done to the hostages posters around the world. But this is really just a terrible thing. I mean, this is just a girl, she's missing, she happens to be Jewish. Why is this happening? I mean, that, that is all part, I think, of the, what we're, you know, talking about this week.
- [41:17]
A
That was a very dispiriting development, that one in particular. And our hearts go out to her family, obviously. Should we do some awards?
- [41:25]
B
Yes, please. Let's lighten the mood a little bit.
- [41:27]
A
Well, I'm not sure how much this is going to be.
- [41:30]
B
I know what you're going to. Forget it. We're not lighting the moon.
- [41:33]
A
Okay, apologies, but we've got a, we've got a very lovely mention coming up. True from you, worth waiting for. It came too late for us to, I think, to include, but it really deserves to be Thomas Massie, the Republican congressman from a district in Kentucky, famously a Trump critic. He's on the right of the Republican Party, but he's Trump critical. Trump endorsed his opponent. Sure enough, Thomas Massie lost. Mainly this was written up as an example of how, how Donald Trump's writ still runs. He dominates in today's Republican Party. But what I had not seen, I think, when we last spoke, was Thomas Massie's concession speech in which he, you know, concedes defeat and says that as tradition Demands, he says, I've telephoned my opponent and congratulated him. It took me a while to reach him because it wasn't hard to. It was, wasn't easy to find him in Tel Aviv. Ho, ho, ho, ho. The gag being that his opponent now aipac, played a big role in funding some of the campaigning on the other side of this race. But again, it's that notion of the strings being pulled. The secret hand behind political developments is in Israel. Massey has had plenty of reasons unrelated to AIPAC or Israel to account for his defeat, which is, number one, he went up against Donald Trump in Kentucky, and Donald Trump is popular among Kentucky Republicans. End of, that's all you need to know. But instead he implied that some other hand of Tel Aviv, his opponent was a puppet. Again, these anti Semitic ways of thinking, this anti Semitic cast of mind. So a chutzpah war to Thomas Massie on his way out of the United States Congress.
- [43:23]
B
Agreed. Now can we talk about our lovely mensch? Word of the week? So this is a story I really like. It's an Israeli widower. His name is aner Atar. He's 83 years old. He was 83 years old when the story begins and he lost his wife. And he discovered that the one thing he can't is having a really hard time dealing with is that loneliness. He said, I close the door at the end of the day, I have no one to talk to about the little things, things about the big things. I mean, I have a family, I have children, grandchildren, they have their lives. And what he started was this community in Tel Aviv among, you know, between buildings that there's this, there are a lot of playgrounds in Tel Aviv. One of them is that smack in the middle of the city. And he just, you know, put a few chairs there, started talking to his neighbors. And this led to this kind of community being created there. And there are lectures and there are yoga classes. And it's all this sort of part of him saying, you know, wait a minute, there are like playgrounds for kids, kids, and there are dog parks, but why aren't there playgrounds for people who are 80 years old and want to meet other people in their age group and just talk and just hear about how their day was and see your neighbors. Actually, it's not limited only to 80 year olds. Everyone who lives in that neighborhood. And he's now kind of copied that into other cities. And it's just this beautiful thing about how you can meet people every day but not actually meet them. And suddenly A little bit of a change. This whole project is called in Hebrew, it's really an nice name. It's called Balagan, which means in Hebrew coming to the garden or coming to the park. But also the word Balagan means mess. And this is kind of a, I think, a magical mess of what you make of life. When you. You can create this kind of community,
- [44:56]
A
I think it's beautiful. And he there are plans for this to be copied or developed in other cities. I can see this becoming a worldwide thing. And, you know, I was in the Highlands of Scotland a couple of weeks ago, and there was a housing development there called Balagan Scottish, but it was spelled the same way as Balagan. And I thought to myself, that's really. Do they realize the Scots living here in this, this, you know, housing development, that they live in a Baligan. But maybe this will become an international name found in cities all over the world, because it's absolutely the case. Doctors have said for a long time loneliness is a real health issue for everybody. For older people particularly, perhaps. And so aner ata for coming up with a brilliant solution to this, a small, modest, but beautiful solution. An absolutely worthy winner of mention of the week. And see if you stay with the podcast at the end of the episode. No matter how much gloom we might bring you one way or another between us, Yonita me, there is always something light and cheery. And in fact, I think there's a little bit more because we've got our thank yous to give and I think there's a little bit more light there, I'd say.
- [46:01]
B
Yes, sir. Big thank you to Michael Barath, our producer, who is back in her chair with an addition that we're very glad about. We talked about last week as well. So we're happy about that. And we shall meet on our really fascinating conversation that we're expecting this coming Tuesday. Jonathan?
- [46:20]
A
Yeah, we look forward to that. And if the little baby, the new addition to the unholy family is there too, we will only be delighted, but we'll see you then.