Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy On the sexual violence of October 7

Summary

Podcast Summary

Unholy: Two Jews on the News

Episode: Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy on the Sexual Violence of October 7
Date: May 19, 2026
Hosts: Yonit Levi (Channel 12, Israel) & Jonathan Freedland (The Guardian, UK)
Main Guest: Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy (Chair, Civil Commission on October 7 Crimes; expert in international law and human rights; 2024 Israel Prize laureate)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the harrowing, systematic sexual and gender-based violence committed during the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7, 2023, and throughout hostages’ captivity. It features an in-depth interview with Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, who led the civil commission established to document and analyze these crimes. The hosts and guest explore the scale, patterns, evidence, and difficult emotional and societal implications of these atrocities, highlighting the importance of recognizing, recording, and confronting the truth for justice, prevention, and understanding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Scope and Scale of Sexual Violence (02:46–04:08)

• Yonit introduces Dr. Elkayam-Levy and the significance of the commission’s report.
• Dr. Elkayam-Levy emphasizes the enormity and cruelty of the crimes:

  "More is about to emerge. More hostages that didn't speak, more hostages that I know want to speak and want to find the right timing to share their stories." (00:00)

• It soon became clear the violence was not isolated but strategic, methodical, and exceptionally cruel.

Patterns of Atrocities: Documentation and Definitions (05:05–08:07)

• The commission identified 13 distinct patterns of sexual abuse—far more than in previous wars or studies.
• Patterns include: rape, gang rape, sexual torture, humiliation, abuse of corpses, post-mortem violence, and more.

  "We could classify it in more [patterns]. We just wanted to keep this as reliable as possible..." (05:20)

• Victim realities far exceeded usual definitions; evidence pointed to a strategy designed to magnify suffering.

Purpose and Intent: Terrorism and Humiliation (08:07–10:28)

• Motivation behind the crimes: To terrorize the nation, inflict generational trauma, and inspire copycat actions.

  "The intention was to terrorize us as a nation. And to create deep humiliation in ways that the trauma will endure for generations to come." (08:48)

• Hostages' suffering was not only direct but also psychological through broadcasting and the forced witnessing by families and the public.

The Concept of "Kinocide" (12:12–15:33)

• Dr. Elkayam-Levy struggled to even name the crimes committed against families, leading to the coining of "kinocide"—systematic targeting and torture of families as families.

  "We need to conceptualize this, we need to put words to describe this phenomena... we call it kinocide, kin as in familial relationships and side, as in the systematicity of it." (14:29)

• Victims were sometimes coerced into witnessing or participating in acts against their loved ones, compounding trauma in unique, devastating ways.

Evidence Gathering Challenges and Triumphs (17:12–20:12)

• Evidence collection was profoundly difficult: many victims murdered, bodies burned, survivors traumatized into silence.
• Despite skepticism and reluctance (including among journalists and human rights groups), the commission built a strong, cross-referenced body of evidence (videos, testimonies, forensic material).

  "We did the most careful work in corroborating each and every case... we cross referenced and corroborated every piece of information." (18:10)

Facing Denialism and Global Response (20:12–24:59)

• Many in the international community, including some self-identified feminists and human rights organizations, were accused of delay, denial, or minimization.
• Dr. Elkayam-Levy attributes this in part to antisemitism and the dehumanization of Israelis/Jews:

  "I have no doubt it comes from antisemitic sentiments. We need to say it because it's the dehumanization of us, of us as Israelis, of us as Jews, of us as Israeli women..." (23:15)

• The commission's work aims to fight that denial, ensuring the world bears witness and the victims’ voices are heard.

Legal and Historical Ramifications (24:59–27:59)

• The report serves both as a historical record and a legal tool for future prosecutions and education.

  "It's both a historical document... and I know that it will become a legal tool at the hands of families of hostages, of victims, of survivors, of prosecutors..." (25:46)

Emotional Toll and Radical Hope (31:11–35:44)

• The commission's work exacted a severe emotional cost from every team member, given the exposure to suffering and trauma.
• Despite this, Dr. Elkayam-Levy insists hope and future reconciliation are possible, so long as suffering is recognized and confronted openly.

  "I must believe in that. One of the things that kept us sane is knowing that for such evil, there is a similar amount of good... Radical hope." (35:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Documentation:
  "There aren't enough words to describe or legal definitions to describe the prolonged sexual violence and abuse that hostages have endured. They shared with us stories about hell, a hell of sexual abuse on a daily basis." (07:41, Dr. Elkayam-Levy)

• On Strategy and Pattern:
  "It's not random. It's not a result of the chaos of the violence. I think they allowed us a window to hell." (11:21, Dr. Elkayam-Levy)

• On "Kinocide":
  "This is family targeted terror. Or in other words, we call it kinocide, kin as in familial relationships and side, as in the systematicity of it." (14:29)

• On Institutional Silence:
  "I was shocked by the institutional denial, by the silence... You don't have to be a feminist expert to kind of realize what could happen when hundreds of men come with such hatred into private houses..." (21:01–22:57, Dr. Elkayam-Levy)

• On Confronting the Truth:
  "We cannot begin to confront what we don't know. The conversation about whether it happened, did it happen, it kind of blurred the important thing that we need to confront these kinds of crimes." (27:16)

• On Emotional Impact:
  "Very few in the world have agreed to expose themselves to this. This kind of violence for so long. You have to be deeply motivated with a sense of purposeness, to kind of immerse yourself in the suffering of so many, so many families." (32:45)

• On Hope:
  "I must believe in that... for such evil, there is a similar amount of good... Radical hope." (35:15)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:46 — Introduction to Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy and the civil commission's report
• 05:20 — Details on patterns of sexual violence
• 08:48 — The intent behind the atrocities: humiliation, terror, trauma
• 12:25 — Developing the concept and legal definition of "kinocide"
• 18:10 — Explaining evidence gathering methods and overcoming skepticism
• 21:01 — Institutional denial and its impact on survivors and documentation
• 23:15 — Discussion of international feminist/NGO responses and antisemitism
• 25:46 — The place of the report as both a legal and historical tool
• 31:11 — Emotional cost to those collecting testimony and evidence
• 34:27 — On the prospects of healing and future reconciliation
• 35:15 — Radical hope in the face of horror

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Tone & Character of Discussion

• Unflinching and Compassionate: The hosts and Dr. Elkayam-Levy maintain a tone of gravitas and sensitivity, facing harrowing topics directly but with empathy for victims and survivors.
• Meticulous and Legalistic: The discussion is grounded in precise, legally rigorous documentation and terminology, highlighting the importance of clarity and accuracy.
• Reflective and Hopeful: Despite the magnitude of suffering, the conversation closes on the imperative of radical hope and the potential for healing, symbolized by Dr. Elkayam-Levy's enduring belief in peace.

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Final Reflection

This episode stands out for its detailed, expert-driven examination of the sexual and gender-based violence of October 7, the unprecedented patterns identified, the global societal reactions, and the emotional toll of bearing witness. Above all, Dr. Elkayam-Levy’s radical hope and insistence on truth, justice, and documentation provide a blueprint for how societies confronted with such trauma might begin to heal.

Transcript

[A]

This report kind of allows you to take a step back and see the horror and the scope and the scale in its entirety. And I want to say this with caution because more is about to emerge, more hostages that didn't speak, more hostages that I know want to speak and want to find the right timing to share their stories. More information that is being sent to us.

[B]

It's Unholy. I'm Yuni Levy in Tel Aviv.

[C]

And I'm Jonathan Friedland in London. One of our unholy conversations this week and it's an important one and in some ways, Yoni, a difficult one.

[B]

Yes, we should say that we have been wanting for a long time, Jonathan, to delve into the sexual violence on October 7th. That is the most harrowing, difficult piece of this terrible puzzle. But I think, as we will hear later in our conversation, the importance of seeing this with open eyes and walking into this terrible sea of evidence is important because we want to know what happened and how to prevent it from happening again and indeed how to bring justice to the victims. And we are of course discussing the fact that the civil commission on October 7, crimes by Hamas attack against women and Children, presented its comprehensive report last week. We should say something about this civil commission. It is set up and founded. It's an Israeli nonprofit organization founded in 2024 after October 7th. Its role is to its goal is to collect materials, evidence of what happened on that day. And the woman who leads this commission set it up, in fact, is our guest today on Unholy. We should our listeners. This isn't an easy listen in any way, but I think we think it's an important one. Last week the civil commission on October 7, crimes by Hamas against women and Children, presented its comprehensive report on the sexual atrocities committed on October 7 and during the hostages captivity. The founder and chair of the civil commission is Dr. Kochav El Khayyam Levi. She's an expert in international law and human rights, the recipient of the 2024 Israel Prize, which Israel's highest civilian honor. She also represented Israeli women's rights protest movement at the United nations and she sits on the Public Council of Women Wage Peace, the Israeli women's peace movement. Kochav, thank you so much for being with us today on Unholy.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

This report, which is, I think important for every human being on the planet to read, says this among other things. You write, our conclusion is unequivocal sexual and gender based violence formed a central component of the October 7th attack and of hostages captivity. I know It's a difficult thing to do in a few lines. But can you describe to us the scale of what you found in two and a half years?

[A]

I can only say that once we started collecting everything from the very beginning, for us, after two years, it became overwhelming. We didn't know that we're going to get to so much information to so many cases. And I think this report kind of allows you to take a step, step back and see the horror and the scope and the scale in its entirety. And I want to say this with caution because more is about to emerge. More hostages that didn't speak, more hostages that I know want to speak and want to find the right timing to share their stories. More information that is being sent to us. So when I say it allows us to see the whore in its entirety, I mean, it just becomes clear that it was a strategy, that it was calculated and it was conducted with exceptional cruelty.

[C]

We're going to come on to that strategy point because it's so hugely important. But just to get a sense of the scale of this thing, it's very clear we're not talking about one or two incidents. We're talking about perhaps dozens.

[A]

Yes. When you read the report, you understand that we cannot put numbers. First of all, some of the bodies were burned to ashes, and we'll never know what happened to them. Some of them were burned to the extent that we don't know what happened a moment before they were burned. And some of the burned bodies, we can see indications of sexual violence. So. And that's one thing. The other thing is that when people treated those bodies, came back from the morgue, described the bodies they were treating, you cannot put a number to that. And we think it would be wrong and it would be doing injustice to the victims of these crimes.

[C]

You set out in the report how they form these very particular patterns. And I think you actually enumerate 13 different types of sexual violence, each one horrifying. Perhaps you can say something about that.

[A]

Yeah. Once we got ourselves immersed in the evidence, immersed in the locations of each and every things that we documented, it allowed us to see the repeating patterns, the similarities in testimonies, the similarities in the condition of the bodies. And it was the point that we decided, I think you can even call it another report, to add a section that provide the themes that we have identified. And we were able to identify 13 patterns of abuse, which is a lot. Our last report was about six patterns of abuse of families. This report, we were able to identify 13 patterns of sexual abuse. And we could classify it in more. We just wanted to keep this as reliable as possible and to make sure we deliver the information in the most accurate way that represents the fact that those who suffered suffered in a way that the sexual violence was done to magnify suffering, magnify pain. Yeah. I can also detail the kind of patterns that we found. Rape, gang rape, sexual torture, sexual humiliation, the abuse of bodies, the post mortem sexual violence. And I want to say something about that. Something that strikes us the most is the fact that there is a huge gap between what people envision as sexual violence or imagine as sexual violence in conflict and the reality of it. The reality of it was the burning of bodies in genital areas, the shooting of bodies in genital areas, the shooting of women faces again and again and again. And one of the testimonies that stays with me is actually a Fagam Goldstein Al mug that shared how beautiful her sister was and how they decided to shoot her in the face. And that's only one account of a sister. And there are more that you can read in the report. And when you read it, you yourself will see the similarities. Maybe you even people that will read this will come, oh, why didn't I say that this is a pattern? Because there are more similarities. We just had to keep it under legal terms, under the most accurate legal terms, if I may add on that I think there aren't enough words to describe or legal definitions to describe the prolonged sexual violence and abuse that hostages have endured. They shared with us stories about hell, a hell of sexual abuse on a daily basis that we weren't sure how to reflect this reality. There aren't almost no words to that.

[B]

You know, it's such a difficult, but as we say, difficult, incredibly important thing to do. To listen to you and to read this report and to look with open eyes at what happened on that day and since, because you make it a very important point to talk about what hostages went through in captivity. There are so many atrocities and horrendous, really. Torture, barbarity on a scale, sadism on a scale we've never encountered, I think, before. And including Hamas documenting this and publishing this on the day, it's hard to, I think, get into a monster's head. But what did they want to achieve with this? What was the goal?

[A]

This is an excellent question. Humiliation, terrorizing us. Sometimes people in Israel or around the world ask me, do we need to see this? Do we need to bear witness, especially here? And I feel like that the intention was to terrorize us as a nation. And to create deep humiliation in ways that the trauma will endure for generations to come. And we repeated the collective trauma, the trauma of families, the trauma of communities, the trauma of individuals. You mentioned that the crimes that they filmed, the crimes they glorified, the atrocities. And I want to tell you that today we stand by families of victims that had to witness the suffering of their loved ones. We are joining them in Israeli courts to prove that even, even the witnessing of suffering should be recognized as an independent act of terror. And one of the things that we also kind of realized in the midst of the process is that we look at those images, at those videos, and find ourselves horrified. But when at a certain point, you understand this serves as inspiration, I can imagine myself, terrorist organizations seeing this and understanding, wow, this is how this should be done. And this could be copycat in other countries, so the general public could avoid this. But policymakers, decision makers need to understand terror. Experts need to understand this is going to be copycat in other places. This is inspiration for other terrorist groups.

[B]

And indeed it was. You said it already was in Druze communities in Syria, for example.

[A]

Exactly. And we had the privilege of meeting with our sisters from the Druze community that shared with us images, videos. And I took upon myself to bear witness because I wanted to be with them at that moment.

[C]

And you're right, obviously, there is this pattern. You've described multiple patterns, many, many things that were repeated in terms of how the evidence pointed you to realize that was a strategy rather than just the same crime being committed in different places at different times by different people who just instinctively committed these same terrible crimes. What tells you that it was a. In the evidence that points to it being a planned, deliberate strategy to commit this kind of violence or that kind of violence?

[A]

Exactly that. Exactly the fact that it wasn't one terrorist that thought it would be exceptionally cruel to do something when you see it repeating in different locations by different terrorists doing the same thing, you understand it's not random. It's not a result of the chaos of the violence. I think they allowed us a window to hell. I said it a year ago. People told me, asked me about the things that we understand now. And I think the difference between October 7 and other atrocities that I personally thought about is that now we had, as scholars, as experts, a window to hell to how they conducted this in a way that is different than words, different than the testimonies we've heard before.

[B]

You also found yourself, I remember you and I talking about this, having to find a term for the cruelty that was done to families. Can you tell us about that, about that term that you had to find?

[A]

Sure. Thank you for asking this. So while we were documenting the sexual atrocities and I want to take you into to this reality, right. We sit in group, usually in teams. We understood that we cannot do this individually because it's very, very difficult. I can't say that I myself did not do this with myself, but usually we did it in teams. And we found ourselves reviewing piles of, piles of documents and videos. And the videos where you see family members being tortured when the terrorists entered the houses, filmed themselves or took the phones of the victims of self to live stream the atrocities. And when you see in those videos little children screaming, father, I'll give you one example, the Idan family. When you see Tsahiydan and I'm meeting the family today and you see Tsahi Dan with blood in his hands, kind of shocked that he just saw the murder of his daughter and his little kids are, are screaming on the floor and his wife is also screaming. We felt physically unable to document this. We felt it's kind of. It was very, very difficult. I found myself calling international experts around the world, asking them, what is this? Where can I read about the torture of families? I feel like I don't know where to place this in the discipline, in the legal definitions of it. And I found that their response was as puzzled as I was. I found them saying, what do you mean torture of families, Violence against families, systematic torture of families. And then we understood together with them that we need to conceptualize this, we need to put words to describe this phenomena that repeated again and again and again. Our previous report documented over 450 cases of individuals. And as I said, now we are with some of these families and hostages, families in courts to make sure this is recognized. This is family targeted terror. Or in other words, we call it kinocide, kin as in familial relationships and side, as in the systematicity of it.

[B]

I will just mention that Tsarhayyidan himself was kidnapped into Gaza and killed there. The rest of his family, apart from Ayam, survived.

[A]

Maybe I can add to that that there is one thing when you kill a family member and you know your family member was murdered, it's another thing to witness it. One of the fathers of the hostages called me and he told me, I heard you on the news speaking about this. And I saw my daughter, and I saw my daughter, the video Hamas sent from her captivity. She was 19. And the end of the video shows her body and he had two heart attacks sent. And he said, you know, I see all the other fathers being able to recover, to rebuild their lives. And now I understand that I'm not crazy, that this is another crime that was inflicted on me.

[C]

We're having to speak about unspeakable things here. But in your report, specifically about this notion of kinocide, you mentioned, you came across a case in which. I'm quoting. Family members were coerced in. Into performing sexual acts on one another. Not just witnessing, but coerced into performing these acts. Bjornit's question earlier to you was about purpose and what purpose could be in the minds of people who commit such a crime. And here you say that this was about destroying family bonds by breaking those kinds of almost ancient taboos like that. Can you say just a bit more about what you. What you're meaning there?

[A]

Yes. I think sexual violence used in familial settings is devastating in ways that create immense suffering to the victims themselves, that the families need to see them in this vulnerable position. Also to those who need to witness those who saw things that happened to their loved ones, it stays with them in a different way than any other crime. I really want to emphasize that our experience shows that those who had to bear witness to the suffering of their loved ones experienced such a deep trauma that requires different treatment, different response, and even us understanding that it has to be dealt differently.

[C]

Kochav about the business of gathering evidence. It was explained very early on after October 7th that these were crimes that were going to be extremely hard to gather evidence of for obvious reasons that so many of the victims of sexual violence were then went on to be murdered, as you've told us, the bodies, in many cases, utterly burnt and destroyed. And that, of course, includes evidence of. And then how inevitably reluctant survivors of some of this sexual violence would be to speak. And media organizations have made this point that they have struggled to find people who they could speak with. How able were you and your colleagues to. I don't know if persuade is the right word, but to encourage people to sit with you and speak about these crimes that to other people they hadn't just not wanted to.

[A]

I want to share something. From the very beginning, I'm very proud of myself that we did not stay silent, that we understood there is something here that is much bigger than what we know. We only had fractions of information, as you said. Most of them were murdered. We could only learn what happened to them through eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses, first responders that collected their bodies, images from Those who came there and rescued the bodies, and you see how they came out from the rubbles, from images and videos of Hamas themselves. And I want to say that the report, we did the most careful work in corroborating each and every case. And for instance, if we share a video that is archived with the commission, we also refer to Human Rights Washed, to Amnesty, to the Commission of Inquiry, to the UN Report. We crossed referenced and corroborated every piece of information in a way that I think now creates such a substantial evidentiary foundation that I think once it will reach any judicial platform that will be established to prosecute these crimes, they will have overwhelming information, because already back then, we had eyewitnesses, ear witnesses. Fifty days after the hostages came back, the reports from the medical teams that treated them were horrific. So we have those experts who treated hostages, and we have live hostages who were able to come back and share their stories. Usually after atrocities, we don't have much. And that is kind of exceptional in this report, I think, because we had to prove this. So much surfaced that usually stays buried in those cases.

[B]

You mentioned a few organizations and what you just said, Kochav and I want to ask you, because what we, I think, as a nation ran into right after October 7th was denialism in all kinds of shades and forms. And whether you had the, you know, people who call themselves feminists, like Judith Butler, saying What happened on October 7th was armed resistance, whether you had organizations like UN Women, Women, that took a very long time, if not mistaken, 57 days to come out with a pretty meek response to what happened. And it goes on and on. These are your colleagues, by the way. We should say you come from human rights, you come from international law. And feminist theory is part of this process of documenting, of listening, of writing, going through every piece of evidence, partially also to fight that denialism.

[A]

No doubt about it, the only reason we did this is to ensure the world knows and to give voice to those who are voiceless, quite literally. I don't think we knew from the beginning what it entails. We couldn't imagine the daily trauma that came with doing this work. But we did it because of the denial, because of the questioning, because of the hesitation, as you said. I was shocked by the institutional denial, by the silence. At very early, I found myself delivering a speech at the UN and kind of, it was a virtual meeting and feeling heartbroken by the lack of ability, by their inability to express solidarity, share concerns that sexual violence had happened, that women are now hostage, taken hostage, and children. You don't have to be a feminist expert to kind of realize what could happen when hundreds of men come with such hatred into private houses, into a festival where so many young men and women are in a vulnerable position. And you don't have to be a feminist expert to know what happens when someone is taken captive under the power of. Of someone else that really wants to terrorize them. So it was heartbreaking. And this is why we did this. I do want to say that we found friends. We found feminist organizations and women's organizations and feminist experts that stood by our side from the very beginning. This was our strategy. We wanted to find those who believe our, you know, allies, those who are willing to help those who want to know the truth. That what kept us strong in this process.

[C]

Why do you think in your own mind, some of those colleagues, fellow feminists, women's groups, did not react in solidarity and ally ship? Do you have in your own mind an explanation for that?

[A]

Wow. I have some answers. I know, first of all, since it took so long to respond, I know some of the. And the response was so inadequate, I have no doubt it comes from antisemitic sentiments. We need to say it because it's the dehumanization of us, of us as Israelis, of us as Jews, of us as Israeli women, the dominization of Israel, the kind of paradigms that really make it extremely difficult, perhaps. And I don't want to sound as if I understand this and. Or justify it. I just needed to explain to myself what's going on. I teach international law. I teach about international human rights law. I teach feminist theory. I need to come, you know, when I say I teach, I need to come with such passion to the field that I'm teaching. And even after October 7, so it was hard for me to kind of understand why this is happening. And I'm furious on people like Judith Butler who said, show me the evidence. Really, come and see. Come and bear witness next to us. Don't stand on the other side of the world and question those women. And when I've never in my life met a feminist figure that said, or women's rights activist that said, show me the evidence. It's not what we do. We believe as legal experts, we try to be careful, but never, never doubting like this.

[B]

The report, we should also say, stands on very strong backbone. The work that you did, the endorsers of the people who assisted this, we should mention some of their names, you know, venerated former Chief Justice Ahron Barak and of course, the sort of legendary Attorney General, Minister of Justice of Canada, Erwin Cather. There's the endorsement of Hillary Clinton, of course, jurists like Yuval Shanimitzal, I assume, also part of wanting to see this as a legal document. And that leads to my question of what to do now, apart from, as you say, continuing to collect and maybe reporting more about this or publishing another report. This is to you, to be used as a legal tool. It is to be used as a historical tool to tell generations what happened here. Or is it both?

[A]

Definitely both. It's both a historical document that. I think what's important for us now is that we see a shift in the global conversation to whether these crimes happened, to what are the consequences? And also a report and a document that creates kind of a closure to so many who fought for so many months to bring the truth out. And we see this in the responses that we get now. Hostages that take this already as if it's their own, they go with it. They ask for recognition. Now we saw them trying to prove on every global stage that this happened to them. And I feel like it creates this kind of relief. And it's also a relief for us to know that it's out there, that it belongs to the world. Now in terms of the legal implications of this report, I know that it will become a legal tool at the hands of, of families of hostages, of victims, of survivors, of prosecutors that will serve this to courts around the world. It also will become a tool for historians, for academics. I was invited, I was privileged to give a keynote in a conference for feminist scholars, and I think even for them, it sheds a light on the dynamics of these crimes, on the dynamics of this violence. It's very, very detailed. I want to say that it must not stay as an academic exercise or legal exercise. It has to be taught. It has to be confronted. I often find myself saying, especially now that it's published, that we cannot begin to confront what we don't know. The conversation about whether it happened, did it happen, it kind of blurred the important thing that we need to confront these kinds of crimes. We need to do it immediately. We need to understand the implication of it for our children and for future generations. And what are we going to do about it? This is the far more important conversation.

[C]

I'm sure you thought that last week when you published the report, there would be this confronting and tackling and discussion of it. Instead. Actually, much of the global media, social media conversation was about a different report. The report by the New York Times journalist Nicholas Kristof, alleging sexual Abuse of detainees, people held of Palestinian detainees held by Israel. Plenty of people think actually that report was published in order to divert attention from your 1. We won't get into that. That's a question about the sort of media which, you know, you can't be expected to know. But I just wonder what you make of those allegations against Israel and how they sit, you know, with the work you're doing and whether you feel one is, in some ways, you know, derailing the effort you're making to, in some ways, force the world to confront what happened on October 7th.

[A]

So I want to correct you, Jonathan, if that's okay. Of course, the exposure of the report exceeded any expectation we had. It was published in the front pages of many news outlets around the world. It was published. It was one of the top five stories of CNN for a long time. It was covered by so many prominent global outlets that I do want to say that and I do want to recognize that millions have shared on social media or were exposed to it in one way or another. And for us, I even told Jonita, I'm not sure I should do this interview because it kind of. We were planning how to get exposure to this report, what to do to go to parliaments to present it here and there. But the exposure that it got kind of made us feel that maybe we should not, you know, we should just let it be now, similar as judges kind of give their rulings and then they don't speak about it. Because it's so sensitive and because it's unique. I felt. Well, I want to say, because it's really very quality journalism that we felt it is a good platform to come and give a few more words than the 300 pages that the will or will not read about what happened. I do feel like that after two years of more than two years of doing this work, I want to focus on that. I want to focus on what happened. And I think every kind of allegation should be investigated. And we stand with victims of sexual violence everywhere. This was kind of our, you know, everything that we've believed in for so long. So whatever happened last week, I want to leave it to those experts in media to debate how and whether and what were the intentions and what were the consequences for us. We just want to focus on the. And make sure we speak about them after so long that the crimes against them were denied.

[B]

You know, we met, you and I, I think, in January of last year, and you said, it's a fight for our generation. And the team of experts working on this, and you at the head of this. I'm sure even when we listen to you talk about this, I'm sure it takes an emotional toll that is really indescribable. How do you. Even on the sort of personal level, you're a mother of children, how do you carry this with you every day? What you saw, what you heard?

[A]

So the greatest challenge was actually the exposure to the trauma, to the violence. The teams, we struggled with it almost every single day. And it's not only reviewing materials, it's also about listening to hostages, to families, to survivors on a daily basis, even reading their awards, being with them, having conversations. It's devastating. I want to say that we took it one day at a time or one week at a time. We created a system of emotional support. Whoever couldn't do this work and needed to take a break, we always allowed it. We, even, we, you know, we did everything in our power to make sure the team is well. And we took upon ourselves, me, Merav, others, to be the main experts that review the materials and make sure we know everything, every. Every detail. But those who don't have to view the materials don't do it. What motivated us really is knowing that we want to ensure that those victims get hurt, that the truth no one wanted to see. I want to explain something. Perhaps it's a good timing to explain this. It would have been amazing if we could have recruited other experts to do this work and analyze the materials and kind of. But it was. Very few in the world have agreed to expose themselves to this. This kind of violence for so long. You have to be deeply motivated with a sense of purposeness, to kind of immerse yourself in the suffering of so many, so many families. I'm saying this because some may be able to study seven testimonies and stop there, and it will be a valid research. But for us, it was far more than that. Again, what allowed us to do this is the knowing that if we don't do this, no one else will do this work. It was really that, and I want to recognize the entire team for doing this work with such dedication. Perhaps now we begin to understand what we did and what are the consequences.

[C]

As perhaps a final question, you've laid out in this report, the depth of this wound. And I wonder what has to happen for this grievous wound to be healed and whether it ever can be healed.

[A]

I have no doubt it will be healed. If what happened after the Holocaust we were able to form such a relationship with Germany. I have no Doubt that if we allow ourselves to, you know, part of the healing is recognizing, is recognizing the suffering, is recognizing everything that has happened. It may not be us that are able to create this kind of end of the conflict, but I do believe that it's possible and it will happen. I have no doubt it will happen, because otherwise our children don't have any future here. It's not. It's not something that we can continue envisioning for ourselves.

[B]

So after everything, you still believe in that? After everything you saw, after everything you heard, you're still a believer in peace?

[A]

I must believe in that. One of the things that kept us sane is knowing that for such evil, there is a similar amount of good, you know, against every video or image that we're seeing, there is probably the same amount of goodness in this world. And we must stick with that or believe in that to continue. Radical hope.

[B]

Radical hope indeed. Dr. Kachav El Kayam Levi, thank you very much for talking to us today.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Well, as we prepared listeners, I think that's a difficult conversation to listen to. It was very clear, I think, even from Kochav's voice, that it's difficult for her. I mean, this is not. She's not just able to be sort of like, you know, she talked about a judge delivering a report. There's. There's not dispassion here. Why would there be the emotional toll, very clear in her voice of what it's done just to listen to, to read, to watch, to hear the evidence of these truly horrific crimes and to immerse herself in them for such a long period of time. And one thing that I was wondering about, you'll be able to guide me on this. Yonit, is, as you said, right at the top. This is a civil commission. It's a nonprofit. It's an unofficial. It's not a governmental body that did this. We've talked a lot on the podcast about the fact there isn't a state commission of inquiry, a government inquiry. If there had been, would this have been part of its work, do you think? In other words, why did it fall to Kochav and other, in effect, sort of volunteers almost to have to take on this really appalling task.

[B]

Jonathan, I think part of what happened after October 7th is not only that our intelligence and military collapsed. It's the institutions and the government that didn't have the sort of way to deal with this magnitude of atrocities. And it was the NGOs in so many areas, even assisting the evacuees who had to escape their homes, that sort of entered that vacuum and Kochav and her team are part of that story. I don't know if anyone would have. First of all, we have a government who, who does not want to set up a commission of inquiry. And it's been two and a half years in these kinds of cases, criminal cases, time is of the essence. So I think that's what they realized and that's how they kind of walked into this and started doing this, as you said. So I don't know if the commission, if there was a state's commission of inquiry, would this be part of the scope? I assume so, but I don't know if anyone could have gone into the detail and the work that this team has done. It's 10,000 photographs and videos and its 430 interviews and testimonies and meeting with survivors, all of this on the shoulders of this small and dedicated group. And I think we should mention that what is so compelling in this report, 100 pages of report as a legal document is that there is includes the testimonies of survivors of this sexual violence who spoke to Kochav and her team. And their work is invaluable again in the present for legal proceedings, but of course also for history and to know and to remember. And I also think it's interesting and important to mention that after all this, we ended the conversation with her saying that there is some hope here. I mean the person who went through the darkest, darkest stories of October 7th still holds that belief in her heart.

[C]

I found that astonishing and to be honest with you, it's not what I actually meant by the question I had in mind. Just purely the. Is this a wound internally as it were, that Jews and Israelis were the. And the, and the direct victims of this crime and the families, will they ever be able to get over it? I didn't mean. Could there ever be reconciliation after this? In a way I think that would be, you know, it wasn't even in my mind and yet she took it in that direction and I was, was surprised and I think for exactly the reason you say, which is that if even somebody like that who has stared absolutely into the pitch black dark of the abyss of these crimes and is able to come out and still talk about having to get over, not just that we can, but we have to. She said, well that's I think an example for many, many others. So that was surprised me and the whole conversation I think think was tremendously valuable. So we are grateful to Kochav, Elik El and, and to her whole team and the work they've done.

[B]

We are indeed, and we will say our thank yous to N and we will meet on a regular episode.

[C]

We'll see you then.

[A]

It.