← Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Netanyahu wants a pardon, hostages reunite and a farewell to Tom Stoppard—With Yair Ettinger
00:59:03
Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/RnHcr0Q6PUQ Benjamin Netanyahu edges closer to Donald Trump’s extraordinary call for a presidential pardon, filing an official request with President Herzog and setting off another political storm. All this as Israel tears itself apart once again over the draft bill. Will the ultra-Orthodox secure a formal exemption from service, and what does that mean for the rest of the country? Yonit and Jonathan unpack the battle lines with Yair Ettinger of Kan News, one of the clearest voices on the Haredi world and its political power. Plus: a farewell to a giant of the stage, and a Chutzpah Award that breaks new records.
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- [00:00]
A
Netanyahu's pardon request causes uproar. So does the progress made with the draft Bill. Elishea Rabi and Alon Ohel, who are held as captives, now meet as free men. And we say goodbye to a theater giant. It's unholy. I'm Unit Levi in Tel Aviv.
- [00:15]
B
And I'm Jonathan Friedland in London.
- [00:29]
Unholy. Two Jews on the news. I think you may have nodded to the thing that has been on our minds more even than the regular news this week with the death of Tom Stoppard, great British playwright. And as you have noted, I would.
- [00:45]
A
Talk only about that this week, but Jonathan wants to talk about the news, so.
- [00:49]
B
No, I mean, we could both nerd out, couldn't we, on that.
- [00:53]
A
And we will, in fact, later in the show.
- [00:56]
B
We absolutely will, so we'll talk about it then. But I mean, shared interest in the theatre. London being a real theatre destination for. Lots of Israelis come to London to see the theatre.
- [01:06]
A
Don't point at me. I am the lots of Israelis who come to London.
- [01:09]
B
No, but you're not the only one. It's a thing, isn't it? People do do it, you know. We mentioned Paddington, the musical last week, which I got an early preview sighting of. And I said, I seem to remember. Um, well, anyway, it just got a lot, a whole lot of rave reviews, which is interesting, Cause I wasn't so sure it would, but it did. And so that's going to become a destination.
- [01:28]
A
How is Two Jews on the News not a play yet? Why are we not writing a play? Two Jews taking their cues, you know, off off off Broadway. Jonathan enters stage left, looking perplexed. Come on, we can do this.
- [01:42]
B
I think we've done it already. We've got so many scripts, all the dialogue is there back and forth. But it will be a little bit sort of Beckettian, don't you think? It will be a little bit waiting for Godo, the two of us, because it will be. We'll resolve to do something and then the final stage direction, they do not move. I can really see that happening. So, yes, we will have lots to say about the late, great Tom Stoppard. But as you say, I'm cracking the whip and insisting we talk about the news which has not paused.
- [02:13]
Starting with this sort of extraordinary thing which I think came early on in the week, this letter that had not been necessarily anticipated. I think It's. Is it 111 pages? It's a long document and it comes from the Prime Minister, addressed to the President of The state of Israel saying, and I'm going to deliberately put this gloss on it, I haven't done anything wrong, but please pardon me. Which is essentially the burden of it. But no, it's a big. It's a big constitutional development, isn't it?
- [02:42]
A
The title is a pardon request, right? That's what Netanyahu is asking for. We should say it's not actually a pardon request because that would require an admission of some sort, or at least contrition. So it's a bit of a misnomer. What Netanyahu is actually asking for is to end his trial unconditionally. So I'll just read a little bit of this letter. Despite my personal interest to conduct the trial and prove my innocence until I'm fully acquitted, I am of the belief that the public interest dictates otherwise. As part of my public responsibility as Prime Minister to bring about reconciliation among parts of the nation, I have no doubt that ending the trial will help lower the flames in the debate around this. So essentially, what Netanyahu is saying, the trial has been conducted for five and a half years up to this point, to say nothing of the five years of investigation that preceding it. He wants to get a get out of jail card and win the whole game. Now. We should. I think it's important.
- [03:39]
B
But not for himself. But not for himself, yes.
- [03:41]
A
For the good of the country.
- [03:42]
B
Of course, it's early to go to our chutzpah awards.
- [03:45]
A
Don't be cynical. It's for the good of the country, Jonathan.
- [03:48]
B
It is just priceless. It's like this is, of course, my own interests of a holy secondary. If it was up to me, I'd happily go to jail for 50 years. But for the country's sake, selflessly, I think we ought to park this trial that otherwise I'm enjoying. We should put that to one side so that it's the country can heal. Because of course, the one thing Netanyahu is most famous for is healing divisions and bringing people together. He is the great unifier. And so he selflessly has come up with this idea, as I say, early to go to our chutzpah nominations. But this one would rank quite high.
- [04:24]
A
I think, you see why twos on the news. The play would work. So I, you know, I would say this just to remind everyone here there was a plea deal on the table. What was in front of Netanyahu to consider was, okay, we will indeed, you know, stop the trial, but you will have to in return leave public life. Essentially, this was in a negotiations between the then Attorney General Avichaim and Netanyahu's own lawyers never denied, we're talking around 2022 that this didn't happen. First of all, because Avichaim Mandelblit, the Attorney General was already at the end of his tenure. But also Netanyahu was not prime minister at the time. And I think a lot of people from the anti Bibi camp who were pushing for this said to themselves, well, Netanyahu is already out of office. He'll probably not be back in office. Why are we pushing this deal? Well, because it's Benjamin Netanyahu, of course, and he's always back in office. Why I'm saying this is because we need to understand, I think all of us, there is no chance that Netanyahu will agree to leave public life. Life after his own premiership after October 7 means that he is now a leader under a warrant from the icc. So just imagine what he must be thinking right if his own now he's flying around the world in a prime minister's plane. Even in this case there are countries he wouldn't fly to. Think of the citizen Netanyahu flying on an El Al plane not being able to go to Rome or London or anywhere else in this situation. So think, think that is one of the reasons we should understand there is no chance for that to happen.
- [06:03]
B
It's such a good point because until now I think people like me have always said he's never going to agree to that because he's kind of, you know, bent on power and he's sort of chemically, biologically dependent on it. Now, you know, there is this thing that he when he's out of office, he just almost looks physically different. And then somehow though his kind of blood but you know, courses through his veins when he's in power. That was the previous version. But your point is much more practical and specific than that is he now needs it. He needs it to give confer some kind of force field of protection around him from a world that is minded to arrest him. And you know, the new mayor of New York who takes office on the 1st of January, he probably has no jurisdiction over this. But Zoram Hamdani said, yeah, if he sets foot here.
- [06:49]
We'Ll arrest him. And so, you know, that's why he needs to carry on being prime minister. I've always thought that there's no deal that flies that demands he requit public life. Nevertheless, I think there are a whole lot of really fascinating questions in this.
- [07:08]
In terms of the Decision maker. So this is now on the desk of President Isaac Herzog, a former political rival and opponent, former leader of the Israeli Labour Party, of Netanyahu, who has since made himself a much more consensual figure inside Israel. He's asked initially for legal advice. That seems to me a sort of delaying tactic just to buy him some time, because I'm not convinced this is really a legal decision. It feels to me it's a very intensely political decision. The precedent I've been reaching back for in my mind, has been Gerald Ford and his pardoning of Richard Nixon. It's obviously completely different situation because Nixon had resigned from office. But even then, it wasn't a legal decision Ford made that there would be. We needed to draw a line under this. What are the factors that are going to be weighing on Herzog if he concedes to this? Does he calm the national mood, as Netanyahu, with some degree of chutzpah, in my view, suggested it would, or would it actually massively inflame the public mood? Because there will be people who feel that there's one law for us and one law for the high ups in power. And as you mentioned, that plea bargain process, you know, can these two. That was going on behind the scenes, the former Chief Justice Aharon Barak, now in his 90s, apparently still involved in those conversations at some level, trying to broker some deal. Is there any deal at all that can happen without Netanyahu agreeing to step away from office? I think there are so many complexities to this, and I think it's a really hard one to read because the presidency is a, you know, it's not like the usual horse trading of domestic politics. It is a bit. But there are different rules or different dynamics at work. So I think there's, you know, many, many questions in this that are quite hard to figure out.
- [08:56]
A
You asked what is weighing on the president, and in a way, it's his father or the precedent set by his father, President Chaim Herzog, the sixth president of Israel, and what he set in the case of the bus 300. Then there were Shin Bet operatives who shot Palestinian terrorists after they were arrested. And he decided that a pardon can be given before a guilty verdict. In fact, in that case, even before a trial. But in every other case in Israel's history, it was always after a guilty verdict. We should say the whole affair required. Required a. An admission of guilt, or what the Supreme Court decided was an admission of guilt. And also it shook up the security, Internal Security Service, the Shin Bet the head of Shin Bet had to resign his job. So all of this is a very different kind of case. What does exist is indeed a nation torn on that Netanyahu is right. If you are a Netanyahu supporter, you are convinced that the cases against him are propagated by a corrupt judiciary. Of course, if you're not a Netanyahu supporter, you think the opposite. And this is a nation torn, as you said. Herzog himself, now Isaac Herzog, the President was Netanyahu's opponent. He comes from the left. This is a camp that will never forgive him. If he gives Netanyahu this pardon, the other camp will never forgive him for coming from the left. So he is in a bind here. Herzog still wants a political career when he leaves office as president. There are many questions here. We also need to add into the mix the fact that that the Attorney General can have a word in this. Indeed, the High Court of Justice can also intervene. It's a legal question how much it can in the decision made by the President. So this is a very big headache for President Herzoge himself. I wouldn't bet what he will decide. There are those who think that he has already decided to give Netanyahu a pardon. I'm not sure it's that simple in this kind of environment in this country.
- [10:56]
B
I know there's been some polling on this. I mean, what the reaction would be if it is a wholly unconditional pardon. In other words, no strings attached at all, not even a demand for an admission of guilt. I'm not sure that would. I mean, what would be in it for Herzog to do that? Yes, he would endear himself to the Netanyahu camp. I'm not sure how much loyalty they would feel or how long they would feel they owe him a debt. I mean, five minutes maybe. But what would he get from doing that? Because the all you know, unless there.
- [11:28]
C
Are.
- [11:30]
B
A whole lot of strings attached that Netanyahu could accept. And I wonder if there are things he could accept short of exiting public life. That's what I've been wondering about. Whether he can accept some degree of wrongdoing that you know, in the we know how politicians can formulate this Netanyahu better than most. He would find a form of words that says mistakes were made, nobody's perfect, lessons learned. Nothing that really hits him personally so long as he can hold onto office. I wonder if there is quite a lot of wiggle room there, things he can accept. I just don't see how Herzog himself, for his own Viability as a political public figure could just give, as it were, a blanket preemptive pardon with no conditions or no concessions by Netanyahu.
- [12:18]
A
Perhaps there's a change of wording or phrasing. I mean, when you look at the polls, the sad thing is I think we live in a reality in which common sense has been kind of thrown out the window and everything is now aligned with your camp. So the sort of anti Bibi camp will say no way would we agree to a pardon without any sort of option of Netanyahu leaving political life. And of course the pro BB camp would say the opposite. So it really is up to the President in this case, I assume, and I would bet that you would see these kind of negotiations going on in the President's residence between the Attorney General and Netanyahu's lawyers. But I think that if I were Herzog put in this bind, I would probably just play for time taken out of Netanyahu's own playbook. The elections would be the deciding factor here if Netanyahu wins the next election. This is not even a question. He's going to change the makeup of, of the Attorney General's position and then you know, say okay, we have to appoint our own Attorney General and the whole trial goes into some, some sort of mistrial if he loses. We're not in this, in this question anymore.
- [13:19]
B
Just two last things to say on this. One is Herzog himself. If he wants to have any future political career and maybe he would post presidency, he cannot afford to alienate the anti Bibi camp. If he becomes a sort of hate figure for the anti Netanyahu camp, I can't see what political route there is for him. That would be his natural base given that he was former leader of the Labour Party. The other element of course in this is Donald Trump. Donald Trump intervened in this in that speech at the Knesset in October when he came as the great sort of conquering hero. He said, you know, pardon this guy, he's a great guy, he's a wartime leader. He's like me, you should let him off. And he's done that more formally since making a very direct written appeal. Again, question, how much, how long, how much does the word of an American president weigh on an Israeli president? I would say some.
- [14:13]
A
Well, if you look at the fate of former president of Brazil, Bolsonaro did the opposite. So, you know, you have a question. Of course the Netanyahu camp is using that right, saying, oh, you know, I even heard one of his MKs saying Donald Trump will dole out sanctions against members in the judiciary in Israel if they don't give Netanyahu a pardon. I don't think that's part of what Donald Trump plans to do.
- [14:37]
B
No, I don't think so either. But he is quick to anger and if he doesn't get his way on this, he'll find some address for his displeasure. And I think that will be a factor in, at least a factor in the Israeli president's mind as he weighs this very big decision.
- [14:57]
A
So we mentioned Trump and Netanyahu. We should say that Barack Ravid, our guest from last week, reported this week that Trump and Netanyahu had a conversation and Trump urged Netanyahu to be a better partner in implementing the second part of the deal between Hamas and Israel, the ceasefire deal. By the way, in the same conversation, Netanyahu, as reported by Barack, was urging Trump to be more forthcoming with his calls for Netanyahu's pardon. We discussed that part. Let's say something more about that second part of the deal. And also mention that the entire coalition left the Knesset plenary and boycotted the vote endorsing Trump's plan.
- [15:37]
B
But remember, by the way, that this is the same coalition that could not have been more gushing and effusive in their praise for the latter day Cyrus, the great Donald Trump. When he was in front of them with his plan, they just, they were garlanding him back in October. Now that he's not in the room, they walk out rather than formally approve this plan that they were heralding as the greatest breakthrough in 3,000 years.
- [16:02]
A
Again, they love the leader, they don't love the plan.
- [16:05]
B
Yeah, early for Ocherter nominations, but one does notice the slight change in position or in tone from the coalition forces on that or coalition parties on that particular move.
- [16:17]
A
We would want to focus on what the first part of that deal brought. And that is it brought home 20 living hostages and almost all of the deceased hostages. One is left in Gaza. Ran Gvili. This week, Channel 12, where I work, aired a special interview with Alon Ogel, a young man, 24 years old today, 22, when he was abducted from the Nova festival held for 738 days by Hamas. Anyone who read the book, the breathtaking memoir by Elisha Abi, was also a guest on this podcast called Hostage. He describes at length he was held with Alon for more than 400 days. And they describe, he describes the special connection between them, something like a fatherly father son connection of two men who were captives. Alon describes this, this this period in his life, really, in these harrowing words, he says, I wasn't in prison. He. He said, prison has a system. I was held captive by men who were insane. He said, every day of my life, I had to keep my sanity. He said, I was tied, I was chained like a monkey. These are his quotes. I ate like a dog. I wasn't even a human. I looked at myself in the mirror and I saw a corpse. And then he also describes how he saw, and this we heard from a few hostages coming back, how he saw in a glimpse someone at Hostage Square holding his picture. He said, someone I didn't even know. And I said to myself, I cannot give up. I have to stay strong because people I don't even know are fighting for me. It really was a harrowing testimony, a very sensitive one, of a young man who was thrown into this reality. He didn't. He couldn't even imagine. And the second part of that will air tonight. We're talking on Thursday. Will air tonight. And that is his meeting with Elisha Abi. Let's say this. If one is not moved by these pictures, one needs to check with a cardiologist, if one has a heart. I mean, to think of these men who kept each other alive while being in hell and now are hugging each other as free men. There are these moments where, you know, Ellie says, I'm so. I'm so proud of you. Of what you. You know, how you held up. Because, remember, Eli was really before Alonne was alone, had to stay for about eight months in captivity alone. So, you know, these two men, kind of so proud of what each of them managed to do and how they managed to survive.
- [18:47]
B
Those passages in Elie Sharabi's extraordinary book about his relationship with Eleonor Hel are among the most touching, really, this kind of semi paternal relationship between them, in which Elie often keeps Alon focused on survival and just, you know, stiffens his spine, often with some tough love. Actually, it's described there in the book. He talked about it in our conversation with him. But that detail you mentioned was also one that leapt out at me, which is him saying about that moment where he saw somebody he didn't know holding one of those portrait photos of himself. I just think, you know, often people wonder about going on demonstrations and rallies in the street and think, what's the point? Who's even listening? The people who need to hear are not hearing. We're only there for each other. If ever you have that thought, just remember that Alan o' Hale In a way got the confidence, the strength rather to carry on despite this absolutely harrowing ordeal because of somebody at a demonstration.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah. And I cannot think of that moment in Elie Sharabi's book. I think you mentioned it when we had the conversation with him when they're in, you know, this pit of hell, right underground. And Elie says to Alon, well, just describe to me your eight month trip after your military service in South America. He says, what you want me to go into detail of an eight month trip? And Elie says to him, are you going anywhere?
- [20:15]
B
You're in a hurry.
- [20:17]
A
Moment of sheer cruelty and despair in the way that they were held. And now to again see them seeing each other, meeting each other. It wasn't the first time they met, of course. Elie was one of the first people who came to meet Alon when he was released. But this is the first time it's in front of a camera. So it is possible to all, all of us to be really moved by this.
- [20:38]
B
Yeah. Meanwhile, rather less edifying scenes coming out of the Knesset where all eyes are on this pitched battle, which we've talked about a fair bit as it's unfolded, I was going to say over months, but it's actually, it's an issue that's, that is older indeed than our podcast about the role of the Israel's ultra Orthodox Jewish community and the military and the exemption that has applied for really in, since the beginning of the state, that has allowed ultra Orthodox young people to skip what for every other Israeli is compulsory and that is military service. So there's a compromise, a proposal, a new bill. We're going to speak with our guest about this, but why don't you just sort of sketch out where we now stand on this really long running vexed issue.
- [21:32]
A
It is a long running, vexed issue. Two things happen to exacerbate the situation further. One, the war and the fact that the military is saying it needs 12,000 soldiers extra a year to fill the ranks and obviously the fact that all of the rest of the Israeli society feel solidarity in, in what has been going on. The second thing is that an exemption bill that did exist expired. And that means that the ultra Orthodox are vulnerable in two important places for them. One, budgets for the Torah studying institutions, the shivot. And second, if there is no bill in place that says they can be exempt from military service in some form or another, then there are also sanctions on them for, for, for example, they can be arrested. So they're pretty desperate to have this bill in place. And a bill that has been introduced is really infuriating the rest of Israeli society because you have to go through the fine print a little bit. I'm just going to be again, very general. It is considered by most experts on this that there are about 80,000 ultra orthodox young men every year eligible to be enlisted. This bill will enlist again, if you read the fine print and you do the math, no more than about 3,000 ultra orthodox a year. We should say it says a little bit more than that. But there are already 2,800 enlisting anyway without the bill. And the other thing that it does, it lacks real sanctions if a Torah studying institution does not comply with this conscription bill. This has got really people from all over Israeli society and particularly. We'll talk about this with our guests, the religious Zionists who really are infuriated and coming to the Knesset saying and demanding, we want a fair country, we want a place in which everyone will carry the burden. In a similar way, this is the way that we demand it. That is not going to happen if this bill is indeed turned into a law.
- [23:31]
C
Yeah.
- [23:31]
B
I think it brings together so many fault line splits within the wider Jewish world that there is a split within Orthodoxy. There's modern Orthodoxy that overlaps a lot with the religious Zionist community. There's ultra Orthodoxy there. These are often theological arguments with deep roots. And then of course, there is this, the split in the wider country between those who serve and those who do not. There's all these different tensions. The right is split on this issue. You see coalition parties, the Likud and others, all of which led us to think we needed to, you know, get an expert in. And we have done that with our guest for our conversation this week.
- [24:17]
A
Yair Ettinger is a journalist from Khan, Israel's public broadcaster. He's an expert on the ultra Orthodox community and the religious Zionists in Israel. In fact, his book Frayed, published in English in 2023, is essential for understanding the religious Zionist community. We're really thrilled to have you on Unholy. Thank you for being here.
- [24:35]
C
Thrilled to be here. Thank you, Yanit. Thank you, Jonathan.
- [24:38]
A
I mean, let's start with talking about this exemption bill on the table, which essentially will allow for the lion's share of the ultra Orthodox community not to enlist in the military. Now, they should be theoretically jumping through hoops and being thrilled about this bill, but they're not. And the politicians are even saying they won't support it. Can you explain to us what's going on here?
- [24:59]
C
Yeah. So this is part of the complication. The whole draft bill or exemption bill is part of our big Israeli complex here. And one complex is the Haredi part. Now, this is true. The Haredi, the Haredi leaders, rabbis, Knesset members, they never said they are going to support the deal for sure. They never said that. They said, okay, we give you green light to start the discussions in the Knesset regarding the bill. But I think the problem begins earlier. It's not only that they didn't say that they are for this law. I think they never said that they are for the game of democracy. They never defined the relationship with the state of Israel. When the Zionist movement started the Haredim, they said, we're not part of it. They established a party. We're talking about 1912, it's called, by the way. It still exists, this party. And they said, we are not Zionists, we're not part of Zionism, but we're going to take care of our interests in this new world. Back to today, we are in a situation where haredim are over 10% of the Israeli population and trying to keep the status quo in those conditions. And the conditions are not so easy for them. But the thing is, if I am allowed to say that everyone hates the Haredi leadership, I'm talking about the Haredi population, they're worried what's going to happen. Are they going to force us to go into the army? Are they going to take our budgets and. And for sure, the non Haredi population of Israel, they're saying, what's with you? We're in a war. Where are you? You're not with us in this situation. The rabbis or their leaders, they say we have to move forward this law, this draft law or exemption law to save the Torah world, the Yeshiva world, the world that used to live here, had flourished until the war. They can't say we are in favor of this law.
- [27:23]
B
We know, and you've explained it, the history that historically the ultra Orthodox stood back from and stood apart from the Zionist enterprise. And they had theological reasons for that. They believed it was up to God to bring the Jews back to the land of Israel. It wasn't something that human humans should do themselves. That was a sort of intellectual objection. We had a speaker from the Haredi community on this podcast a while back who said something much more down to earth, which was essentially, we fear that if we send our sons to fight in the army, they will come back not wearing a kippah. In other words, they will become secular. Now, those two things are very different. Different one is A big elaborate, theological, principled objection. Another one is we don't think we can keep our lifestyle if they are tempted by the secular life of their fellow soldiers in the idf. So putting aside what they say publicly because you know this world, what do you think is really emotionally at the bottom of their objection, their refusal to serve in the idea?
- [28:37]
C
First of all, this is precise. These are two levels of haredi, harediness, okay? The one thing is what our stand towards the state of Israel and the other one is what is our point of view, our stand to the wide world. In Hebrew, haredim is quite similar word to the word anxiety. There is an existential anxiety around the Haredi identity. There is a metaphor of the Ark of Noah. We have to build something which is closed with closed space around us. So we don't touch reality too much. We don't touch the west too much. We don't touch values which are not the Torah values. The are our holy scripts. This is much more than. First of all, it's ideology, of course, but I think it's an emotional stand towards the experience of living. You feel threatened by many things. Now, the religious Zionist community, this is one big challenge of the religious Zionist community. Since 1948, the establishment of the state of Israel, many people from this community, when they.
- [30:05]
When they came to the age of 18 and went to the army, many of them left religion. They came back secular because there is something in the state of Israel, in nationality, in, you know, in all this culture, which is quite secular. This is true. And this is one major fear and major. So many initiatives and projects in the religious Zionist community are aimed for this. So our children go to the army and come back still religious, believe and all this. Now for the Haredim, this never worked. They didn't try that. They have have no language for that. For them, the army is like really a distant world, another culture. Before Yonit and I were talking and she said that she heard from someone.
- [31:04]
Of not has actually said.
- [31:05]
A
The theory was that it's not that they're afraid that the sons will come back not religious. They're actually afraid that they'll go into the army and come back the same way. And thus the excuses in quotation marks will be lost for them. That is a theory that I heard from.
- [31:19]
C
Yeah, and this is correct because for the Team Lumim for religious Zionists, it's 80 or 50 years since people are. There is a language for that and there is also theology for that. When you're going to the army, you're Doing your mission, your Zionist mission, your solidarity mission. You have language for that? There is no language for. For Khaleedim and for Khalidim is like something. It's really distance. It's still another culture. If we go to the army, this is something that we have to give up a lot in order to go to the army. The thing is that the IDF and the government are trying for, I think it's for 25 years to bring this language into the surface or to create some battalions or platoons which are Haredim. Then you can go to the army and come as you are and come back as you are.
- [32:16]
A
What's interesting to me when you describe this, Yegh, I mean, obviously the whole of Israeli society was changed by October 7th. Have they not changed at all? Have the ultra Orthodox not sort of woken up to this danger or to the camaraderie of Israeli society? What I'm trying to ask, maybe are there undercurrents that we're not seeing? Are there groups that are maybe quietly saying to themselves, away from the politicians, away from the Rabb, we need to be part of this somehow? Is there any kind of, you know, voices, any kind of voices like that?
- [32:47]
C
Before I answer that, let's remember what happened just after October 7th in the state of Israel, okay? In the Haredi scene, what happened was that in the few first weeks, some people really were from the Haredi community. Some men said, we are going to the army, let's try to go. And then they went to very short, not combat roles, but they did something. And I think even more important the fact that the media, the Israeli media, Channel 12, Channel 11, gave this like a real big spotlight. The change is coming. I think many, many people thought that this is redemption. We solved the problem. And then very quickly we saw that it was very tiny, much, much tinier than we thought. And.
- [33:39]
It didn't work. Actually, we're now 26 months after the October 7th. I think we are in the middle of a big major clash between the Haredi community and the State of Israel, Haredi community and the non Haredi Israel, because it didn't work. It's quite amazing. How could it be in terms, not on national terms? Because in terms of just simple solidarity, the state of Israel, the Israeli society is so small and how could it be now? I think many, many Haredim, when you speak to Haredim, many of them are quite embarrassed. They're saying, okay, what's going on? They understand that what happened before could not happen in the future. Something has to change. But no One knows what is going to change. And the most crucial thing is that the old leadership of Haredim is still in power. The old rabbis are still in power. We had months ago, there was a really big rally of some hundreds of thousand people, Haredim going out and saying, we are going to stand with our rabbis, we're going to stand with the status quo. And the thing is that even though you can feel people are uncomfortable with what's going on within the community, there is no voice or significant voice for that. And you ask yourself what is going to be the next leadership of Haredin? You can't see it yet.
- [35:12]
B
No. So let's just get into the specifics of this bill. As we understand it, there are quite a lot of exemptions contained within that. So officially it says the Haredim will be serving, but there's quite a lot of room for maneuver that people who haven't served up to the age of 26, they'll. Any call on them will be cancelled. Even if you've had, if you've only had a small amount of Yeshiva education when you were much younger and maybe you're no longer Haredi, you could count as one of the enlisted, you know, out of, as it were, the allocation of the Haredim, ways in which the community could sort of get out of this, more or less. Do you detect in the political leadership, the ultra Orthodox parties, any appetite for compromise by which they will say, okay, mainly we're exempted, but a handful, a few thousand will have to go to the draft and we will, as it were, sacrifice a few thousand who have to put on the uniform so that the rest of us can continue to live as we have done since 1948? Or do you think this is so fundamental and on principle there is no compromise to be had on this issue?
- [36:28]
C
One of the most, the oldest politicians in Israel is Ariadevi and his hands are on the wheel. I think he knows the situation, he knows the Israeli society, he knows the challenges. If you'd ask him one on one, not on quotes, not on camera, he would say what you say. We have to compromise, we have to at least give up those young, healthy men who do not go to Yeshiva, they do not learn Torah because Aliya Derry, he knows that if he wants to save people who learn, you have to give up up people who doesn't learn. And you know, I found in the, in channel 11 channel, old channel 1, in the archive, I saw a sink from Ari Derry saying that people who don't sit and learn have to go to the Yeshiva. Now, this is something that you would not catch Ayodh say today, because there is a tragedy, tragedy of the Haredian leadership in the past, I would say 10 years, even before the war, and surely during the war. And this strategy is around rhetorics and around their conception of what's going on.
- [37:58]
The hardliners, even, I would say anti Zionist elements within the Haredi society are really in power now because they're saying, oh, you see, we went to compromise. And they, the state of Israel didn't want. The Supreme Court is really the bad guy that tries to force us to go into the army.
- [38:24]
A
I want to talk about the religious Zionist community and their relation to all of this because that's. And you mentioned them already. The interesting part about this is again, it's a community that is religious but does serve. And not only does it serve, it served in very large numbers during the war, also in reserve forces. This is, you know, and they are, I think, perhaps the most furious at what is going on because they also voted for or supported this coalition. How do you see that community in the relation to the question? I mean, when I look at them, I say that if a change will come, it will come from this, this community, from their fury at what is going on.
- [39:03]
C
It used to be it's also a minority in Israel, in the Israeli society, but the war brought this community to the front because the burden or the, you know, they carry, the families, people, soldiers, people who got killed, people who got wounded. I mean, the war is really, it's a big deal for this community and the role that it takes in Israeli society, Israeli politics. And people are really furious. They're furious at the Haredi community. I mean, many people for many years did not pay attention to what's going on with the Haredi world. The Haredi exemption of the army. It was something for, you know, reporters who report about the Haredi community, but most of Israelis did not really pay attention for that today. This is a major issue for every Israeli and in particularly, and particular to the religious Zionists. And the thing is that the leadership of the religious Zionist, and we're talking about, about, especially about Bezale Smotrich. He claims he. He named his party Sihanut. This is the name of the community, the name of the sector. It's the historic name. He took the name. People were angry at him when he did that before a few years ago, but during the war, he is claiming that he represents this community.
- [40:44]
Where at least on this issue of the Haredi community, of the draft law he's really in offside, offside. He doesn't understand the real sentiment of what's going on. You can take just few scenes of what's going on now in the Knesset. You see how rage people are. People who came back for the war, people who lost their sons in the war, wives of people who did not, were not at home for 400, 500 days. It's crazy. And you listen to this and you hear how furious they are. And the thing is that.
- [41:29]
We can see the elections coming and this week.
- [41:35]
People are talking about that, their threat. They threat the Zionist, the Tsinodat Party, Smochu Party. If you're going to vote in favor of this law, you're going to lose our votes. Now Smotrich is in deep problem here because he's above under the threshold anyway, even before supporting this law. And for sure he's going to be in a problem if he's going to support the law. And I think we can tell, it's not hard to tell that in many ways the coming elections, Haredi issue, the draft law, all this is going to be really in the center of the table.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah. And just this may be our closing question. We focused on the draft issue, but as you said, there is also the Haredi issue which goes beyond the draft as a block. A community that stands apart from much of Israeli life, including its economic life. And so a lot of people talk about this, the question of sharing the military burden, but there's also the burden of paying taxes and so on. Just standing back and looking sort of big picture, do you see that eventually, one way or another, this community is going to have to integrate into the rest of Israeli life, economically, militarily, et cetera? Or do you think from your knowledge of this community, is it their destiny to stand apart and for, you know, the burden paying taxes and fighting the wars is going to have to be carried by everyone. But the Haredim just go, you know, if you're looking into a crystal ball, 50 years from now, do they stand apart or do they eventually join?
- [43:20]
C
I think it depends in many way on their political power. The question of what's going to happen, are they going to be part of the coalition after the next elections? Is many answers for your questions lie there because Kharimas are way over demographically. They're really, they're huge power today.
- [43:47]
You can't form a government without Haredim. Maybe, maybe this is one major, major question.
- [43:57]
I think that if I've learned something from the issue of the draft law, is that.
- [44:06]
If you rely on evolution of the quiet process that will bring people in, this is not going to happen. People are not going to give up their privileges, the privileges that democracy, the democratic state of Israel gave them because of political, legitimate political deals. People are not going to give it up and it's going to happen after more of not evolution, but I would say at least small revolution. Something have to be done here and it's more drastic then just rely on the process. The draft law is about life and death. After October 7th, we're talking about life and death issues. So this is, it touches more Israelis and just we didn't touch Netanyahu, but Netanyahu and Haredim are really, it's. They are built one to another.
- [45:13]
It's a very close.
- [45:16]
Ties and people from the Haredi community really admires Netanyahu. What happens after Netanyahu, we don't know. But I think a lot of the answers for this lies in the future. What happens after Netanyahu?
- [45:31]
A
Which leaves us with more questions than answers, which is what is more Jewish. Ye Retinger, thank you so much for talking to us today.
- [45:38]
C
Thank you so much, Jonathan. You need to be.
- [45:45]
B
Yair Ettinger is one of those reporters who has really immersed himself in this world. And in some ways it does feel like a very different world, which is why I think it was good we took the time to really dive deep into some of the long term underlying reasons. This isn't just a sort of political spat like you might get over a budget bill or something. This has really deep roots in the foundation of the state and indeed in arguments with within, you know, religious Judaism that are decades if not centuries old. So I think it was really good to go deep into it. I don't myself see an immediate solution to those big long term things, even if the politicians can patch something together. Right now this is a really huge, glaring divide in, as I said, in the Jewish world.
- [46:27]
A
Yes. And in a weird way, you know, when we talked before, I said to Yaels, what's the solution? How to solve this huge, you know, problem in Israeli society? And he said actually just to leave it as it is now, which seems to be a solution. Israel has for many things just the status quo without a bill and to say, you know what, what's fair is if you don't want to enlist, then no, there won't be budgets, enough budgets for the tourist studying institutions and no, you might get arrested if you don't enlist. The problem is the ultra Orthodox parties won't have it. That way. But indeed, that is probably what we will continue to see for a while before this whole issue is set.
- [47:08]
B
Now, we said at the start that the subject we really wanted to talk about was about somebody in this neck of the woods. The death was announced of the great British and Jewish playwright Tom Stoppard. Not the name he was born with. He was somebody who came late to understanding his Jewish identity. We'll get onto that. But there was just there. He's also obviously a huge amount to say about him.
- [47:35]
But I'll tell you what, we'll take turns. There's. There's one, you know, because there's. I. I've got at least three things I want to.
- [47:40]
A
I'm like the nerd in class going. But I have the answer. I have the answer.
- [47:44]
B
Yeah, I know. Let me. Okay, so the two things about. About him that I wanted to say. First one is just as a journalist, I love this story so much, which is, he began life as a journalist. He was a reporter on a Bristol newspaper. He applied for a job, as in as a political journalist. And he got to the interview and they said, so we see you're interested in. In politics and being a political journalist. Who. What is the name of the current Home Secretary? And he said. I said I was interested, not obsessed.
- [48:15]
Because he didn't know the answer. I just think that's the best job interview answer I've ever heard. I love that. The second thing is just a. About the Jewishness of Tom Stoppard. As we say, he sort of came late to understanding his own.
- [48:29]
Jewish background. It's a complicated one. He was born.
- [48:34]
A Czech, but was spent in those wartime years. He was born in 1937. He moved. He had times in Singapore, then in India. He ended up taking the name of someone, a man who was not his father. That's where the Stoppard came from. He came to all the Jewish stuff late and it manifests itself in the. In the great play Leopoldstadt, which is his last great play or last play. The interesting thing I just wanted to say about it, which is a slightly dissenting note, is it's right on Stopart. It's excellent. It's a great play. There was something about it which to me, I found myself realizing a lot of the arguments that are. Because a lot of his plays were argument characters on stage, would be quite familiar to unholy listeners. It's about Zionism and about assimilation. And they might be thinking, well, hang on, where's the big scintillating revelation? It just struck me this was the work of somebody who had not spent their whole life steeped in Jewish argument. If he had, it would have not. It would have seemed very, very familiar to him. Instead, it was kind of novel to him, these arguments, because he had not grown up all those decades, all those years in the Jewish world. So while he. In other plays, he does chaos theory and sort of philosophy and Eastern European politics, and we're all looking at that, bedazzled by the brilliance in that play. It felt more familiar in a way, because it's our world much more than it had been his world. That's my.
- [49:59]
A
I completely agree. Look, he was definitely.
- [50:03]
One of the greatest, I don't think only in our lifetimes. And I think that he managed to, you know, lift you up and teach you how to fly with his writing, with the brilliance of it, with the emotion of it. I think usually a lot of the critics would say, you know, it's so brilliant. But I think a lot of it was also his heart. And I will tell you that one of my closest friends named Idol Riklin, he's a theater director and an opera director. And our friendship began with an argument, very Israeli thing. And our first argument ever was, what is Tom Stoppard's best play? And I said, this is before Leopoldstadt. I said, it's the real thing. Which is, I think before his last play was probably the most biographical plays of. Of his, you know, about a playwright who, who falls in love with someone who isn't his wife. And. And he said, it's Arcadia. And we had a huge argument. I don't think it was ever settled. I was right. But the point is that I. I had the. I did have the pleasure of meeting Sir Tom 2008. He received. Received the Dan David Prize in Israel. And I remember thinking to myself that there was something. So perhaps I was wrong about this. But he did not seem, you know, self involved. He was such a huge talent, but there was nothing about him that would show that to the outside world. You know, it was. I remember he sat in this panel, he said, I'm not interested in analyzing Tom Stoppard's plays. It was just such a wonderful thing. And you mentioned, and the fact that he came to Jewishness rather late. This is, this is very true. He. He discovered, I think only in his 40s, the actual Jewish background of his life. And I remember he said to me in that interview, said, I feel Jewish like, I feel Czech. It's a part of my biography that I have empathy towards. I think it took him a while to sort of grow closer to that part of his, of his personality. This is just a guess, but, you know, that is what I felt for meeting him.
- [52:07]
B
Yeah. No, I'm very envious that you met him. I think it's wonderful. I would.
- [52:10]
A
I sent you pictures all week. It was the same picture, but I was like, look, I met him.
- [52:14]
B
I know you did, and you spoke to him. I mean, I. I did meet him in the sense I was at a. A gathering of people that he was at, but I was actually a bit too sort of starstruck to actually talk to him, but he was, I've, you know, I was in the room. But the. You mentioned Arcadia and so that's been. That is the subject of a letter that was published in the Times newspaper this week, which has been very widely circulated because it is extraordinary, I think, and it's a little bit long, but I'm going to read it to you because it just says something about things that I know both of us care about, about art and theatre and what it matters. So here's this letter. In 1993, my wife and I went to see the first production of Arcadia by Tom Stoppard. And in the interval I experienced a Damascene conversion. As a clinical scientist, I was trying to understand the enigma of the behaviour of breast cancer, writes the letter writer. The assumption being that it grew in a linear trajectory, spitting off metastases on its way. In the first act of Arcadia, Thomasina, one of the characters asks her tutor if there is an equation for a curve like a bell. There must be an equation for one like a bluebell. And if a bluebell, why not a rose? With that, Stoppard explains chaos theory, which better explains the behaviour of breast cancer. At the point of diagnosis, the cancer must have already scattered cancer cells into the circulation that nest latent in distant organs. The consequence of that hypothesis was the birth of adjuvant systemic chemotherapy. And rapidly we saw a striking fall of the curve that illustrated patients survival. Stoppard never learnt how many lives he saved by writing Arcadia. The letters from Michael Baum, Professor Emeritus of Surgery, Visiting professor of Medical Humanities at University College London. In other words, by sitting in the theatre watching Arcadia, a leading breast cancer specialist had a breakthrough in his understanding of the disease that, as he said, led to the savings of many lives.
- [54:18]
A
That is really remarkable. And jaw dropping, isn't it?
- [54:21]
B
Isn't that incredible, that letter? So art matters, you know, we were saying before turning up at a demonstration matters. Turning up at a play matters Writing a play matters. All this stuff can change the world one life at a time.
- [54:34]
A
And I know that's a small thing, but when I said that, one of my closest friends argued with me. If Arcadia is better than the real thing. Now you. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan, for solving that. I was wrong. Arcadia wins in points, doesn't it? Yes. I can't.
- [54:49]
C
It does.
- [54:49]
B
In terms of impact. Isn't that something that has been widely shared, as I said, and you can see why. Rest in peace, Tom Stoppard.
- [54:58]
A
So I think that could probably constitute as our Mensch Award of the week.
- [55:02]
B
I think so. Yes. Absolutely. No. No competition. So that's. Our business is complete there. Should we just close out though with a Chutzpah award again? It's sort of. It's this kind of neighborhood, I'm sorry that the British Isles are dominating a little bit this story out of or.
- [55:21]
A
The Herzog family where however you want to see how you choose to see it this week.
- [55:25]
B
Right. It's absolutely true. So Dublin's city council has been discussing a proposal to rename what is actually quite a small park in the city named after the person who we talked about earlier, the former president of Israel, the Irish born Chaim Herzog. The council wanted to strip the Herzog name as part of their protest at the war in Gaza. And they discussed this de naming proposal and have now sent it back to the relevant committee because there was a whole lot of anguish, particularly from the very, very small but still existent Irish Jewish community and people with roots but not before. And here's where the Chutzpah award comes in. Several members of the council criticized Israel and criticized the pressure they had come under, denouncing the quote, Zionist lobby and Israeli lobby for intervening in their deliberations and discussions. One of them said, I'm further convinced that whatever phone calls were made to our CEO referring to the city council and to other officials probably emanated from Israeli intelligence attached to the Israeli Defense Force because they're active in every issue in relation to Palestine. Trace it all the way back and you'll find that's the source said one of the participants in this debate about. In about the naming of a park in Dublin.
- [56:59]
A
Yeah, I hope you saw my eye roll all the way to Ireland when you read that.
- [57:05]
B
That eye roll travels, Yoni. You know that when you do the.
- [57:08]
A
Full thing, I really hope it does. Well, I agree with the Chutzpah Award nominee. I'll just add one more if I may, which is the Guinness World Record words which this week we actually broke the story on channel 12. Is that an Israeli organization that is called Matnat Kaim? It's a charity. It helps people make voluntary kidney donations that approach the Guinness World Record to discuss the fact that they are hosting an event. I think it was bringing together 2, 000 donors, which is quite an astounding thing. And according to them, they received the answer that they will no longer be receiving entries from submissions from Israel. So I think we can add that to the Dublin City Council this week in our Chutzpah Awards.
- [57:57]
B
It's a crowded field. Yet again, we bring that news to you regularly of how a world brimming with chutzpah from the top to the bottom.
- [58:09]
A
It's time to reveal that our original name for this podcast was Chutzpod, but we thought it was perhaps a little, and I quote, too Jewish. End quote. Remember that.
- [58:19]
B
I know I actually don't remember that, but I know that.
- [58:22]
A
I know that if you remember your mark, I'm remembering all kinds of strange things.
- [58:26]
B
If you remember it, it's bound to have happened. Yes. Let's go back to the letter about Arcadia. I think we were on firmer ground with that. I think we. We have got to the end of this episode. As always, you can listen to our whole back catalog. It's all there. There's lots of fabulous interviews, etc you can go back to. But we should say thank you as usual.
- [58:49]
A
A big thank you to Michal Porat and we will meet next week.
- [58:53]
B
See you then.