← Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Special update: Hostages recovering, Hamas breaking the rules, and U.S. involvement
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- [00:00]
A
This is an unholy midweek episode. A week since the Israeli hostages are back home. We want to check in on the fragile ceasefire and the attempts to disarm Hamas and also give you some more details on the guests that will be joining us in our New York show just a week away. It's unholy. I'm Yanit Levi in Tel Aviv.
- [00:18]
B
And I'm Jonathan Friedland, usually in London. Unholy Two Jews on the news. Obviously midweek episode. We have lots to talk about but the New York live show, as you say, what is it? Just over a week away. We already mentioned, I think on our last episode that we are going to be joined by what a huge guest in the form of former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, formerly senator of New York from New York. And we'll be seeing speaking with her in New York City. So we thrilled about that. She'll be alongside her co author of a new book all about politics at the highest level. But we are thrilled that our guest on the show when we are live in New York will be none other than friend of the podcast Alex Adelman. I think we can say. I mean we find him genuinely hilarious but also really insightful on all the Jewish stuff. His one man show just for us was a mega hit on Broadway, also in London. He is extremely funny. People who are on holy listings will remember of course our conversation, conversation with him. The standout moment being when he talked us through which of the Jewish festivals were Jewish and which were not. I seem to remember him saying Yom Kippur, very not Jewish. Which and he explained that maybe we'll get into that when we're on stage with him at the Stryker center in New York City on October 29th. If you have not yet booked your ticket, you really should. We're getting quite a lineup there.
- [01:54]
A
We're very thrilled about that. And as you said, Secretary Hillary Clinton, lots to talk about with her obviously and as you said, her co editor of her book, Dr. Karen Yarchimilo, who is the dean of SIPA at Columbia and Alex Edenmann. We're really looking forward to that and looking forward to seeing each other and our audience which hasn't happened since London. And we're, you know, we're happy about that. There's this moment where Jonathan transforms into a Graham Norton style host which I never knew. We know each other for many years. I've never known that he had this in him. He becomes this, this host and now Hillary does that whole thing. So, so it's very Exciting.
- [02:33]
B
So we look forward to that. But as you said, Yoni, big news is what's brought us together for this midweek episode. Obviously, the ceasefire came into force last week, and just the sort of fragility of it was revealed really very, very swiftly.
- [02:51]
A
The happy part of the week for Israelis, and I think for many other friends of Israel around the world, is the fact that the hostages seem to be recovering quite quickly, most of them already released from the hospital. And you talking, being these sort of people everyone knew about, but now they're just returning to their families. That's a good part. Every other part has been different. Clauses of this agreement have been in breach from Hamas aside. First of all, from, we should say to Israeli soldiers were killed in what is called the Yellow Zone. I remind you that under the terms of the ceasefire, Israel withdrew its troops and now is in the area of around 53% of the Gaza Strip and is dismantled, dismantling tunnels as it goes along. At some point, Hamas operatives shot at Israeli soldiers. Two of them were killed. It's a very fragile ceasefire. Israel then responded, retaliated by attacking. And you had to have the Trump administration saying, we have to stop this and see Kushner?
- [03:54]
B
No, I just wanted to chip in a literary conversation and go. And those reprisals from Israel claiming the deaths of 44 Palestinians, according to Hamas and their figures.
- [04:04]
A
Yes. And of course, the lines of withdrawal are such that now Israel has to demarcate the zone because we're not sure if indeed the numbers are correct. But if there are even civilians going into that area and the military needs to shoot warning shots, it's a very fragile kind of thing. But what we are seeing, again, and this is disturbing and alarming for Israelis, is Hamas is trying to, at many points of this, be in breach of the. Of the. Is in breach of the agreement. For example, it had to return all of the bodies that it could find of the deceased within 72 hours. We are beyond the 72 hours. Not all of the bodies have been returned. And you see Hamas doing this very, very slowly. That is one thing. Saying that they will not be demilitarized, that their weapons will not be taken from them. So that is, of course, in breach of the agreement. And a worrying thing is also the fact that it has begun to execute its enemies. And that is, of course, worrying for anyone who cares about Palestinians, anyone who cares about the stability of the region. Also, we should say that Hamas realized it's probably not good for their propaganda, so they're doing it quietly. They began by doing it rather more loudly. This is where we are. I think many Israelis are quite concerned and remember particularly the pro, the anti Bibi camp and the camp that said we want to end the war and at any point if Israel needed to, it could enter into a new operation or even a limited scale operation. Gaza. You have the Americans following this very, very closely. It doesn't seem like it's going to simple thing for Israel to return or to resume operations whenever it wants to. It's a more complicated picture, I think.
- [05:44]
B
Yeah. And what really complicates it is that this isn't just a battle, is it between Israel and Hamas. There is this huge presence of the Americans looming over the whole process and very much the sense that they are the ones really, you know, making the calls and making the ultimate decision so that obviously Israel furious with Hamas about its non compliance. But then the signs coming out of Washington is that Washington is giving Hama some, some slack here, some room. You know, you had this line from the, The Vice President J.D. vance, who as you mentioned is said to be coming to the region saying there will be hills and valleys in the ceasefire process, you know, ups and downs, even suggesting that the, that these, you know, the use of weapons and by Hamas may not have been authorized by the Hamas leadership. That maybe these rogue players within Hamas. He goes, when we, you know, quoting Vance, when we talk about Hamas, you're talking about 40 different cells. It's just disjointed. Some of those cells will probably honor the ceasefire. Many of those cells, as we saw some evidence of, will not. And that's what he said on Sunday. So I the sense that coming out of Washington is just give them some space. Don't expect this to all happen straight away. Obviously on the Israeli side there is no goodwill, obviously, obviously for Hamas there's no sense in which, okay, we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And I think you've seen that play out in this really grisly and morbid business about the human remains. Because at first it was just this, what was the number four. And then it rose to six bodies returned. And Hamas's line was look, we just can't find the others without specialist equipment. Equipment. Well, guess what, there's pressure that comes indeed, including from Washington and suddenly they do find more and those are able to come even without the deployment of this specialist equipment. So that just adds to the sense I think in Israel certainly, but also among others that Hamas is sort of playing this and trying to get extract the most advantage. But you have in Washington an administration that really does not want to be seen to have celebrated with huge hoopla last week, a ceasefire that falls apart within days. So therefore they're giving some running room to Hamas and giving this message of, let's just see how this plays out. Because the alternative for them would be to admit, well, all right, this thing we said was the greatest thing for 3,000 years has fallen apart in 3,000 minutes or less.
- [08:19]
A
Listening to, I think to myself, what is needed here right now is some long term planning and a lot of going into the details. I would say that generally Israelis are not great with the former, and it doesn't seem like the Trump administration is great with the latter. So that is worrying a bit when we talk about the main, you know, the heart of this agreement, which is disarming Hamas. I mean, that is the largest question, right. How do you make sure that you're not seeing them as the governing body and the terror monster that it, that it was before October 7th. You mentioned the, the Trump administration, we should say an exclusive interview to Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes, Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, the deal breakers, the deal brokers here in this story, essentially saying, and I think this is important also internally in Israel that they decided on the day of the Qatar attack, Israel attacking Qatar, that Israel has gone too far. And what is really interesting to me in that regard, Jonathan, is just that thin thinking that the day that that happened, you were in London, I was in Washington, and what we thought was hostages are never coming back. I mean, if you targeted the mediators and if you targeted Hamas in Qatar, then this might be the end of the, of the hostage deal. And history proved that the exact opposite happened. And actually that was the moment where it became a done deal, that the hostages will be coming home and that the war will begin to wind down. So I just found that very interesting. And of course, of course this is different from the Netanyahu version on what happened and how this deal.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, because it was not through any choice of theirs, that this was the thing that made the hostages come back. In other words, your initial reading might have been right, that this was a move that was predicated on the assumption that it was now impossible to get the hostages back and they were in effect being written off. It's because the operation, for one thing, did succeed, the operation in Doha, I mean, and the fact that it so antagonized and angered the Americans that it set in train this process. In other words, it wasn't through some grand Design or grand plan of Netanyahu's that this brought the hostages home. On the contrary, as was said in that interview that you just rightly mentioned, it was the irritation with Netanyahu in Washington, the sense that enough's enough and the decision by Washington put its foot down. This, to me, even one week on, remains one of the great paradoxes and sort of bizarre aspects of this whole story that you have Israelis celebrating even on the right and lauding Donald Trump.
- [10:58]
A
Why?
- [10:59]
B
Because he put his hand in front of Netanyahu's face and said, enough. That's what they're celebrating. Not that he was this great ally of the Israeli prime Minister, but he was the refuser of the Israeli prime minister Minister. And you have Netanyahu pro. Netanyahu could members of the Knesset standing and applauding and cheering Donald Trump for that. It is a strange political turn of events.
- [11:20]
A
Yeah, it is. Although, of course, they would disagree with you on the reading of that. What they would say is, not until this moment have we arrived at a point in which Hamas would release the living hostages and allow for the military, the Israeli military, to still remain in 53% of the Gaza Strip. Of course, that is supposed to change. And the army, the military is supposed to withdraw to the perimeter. But at this moment, it is true that up until this deal was reached, Hamas didn't agree to it, so it made concessions. Is that enough? I'm not sure. But the Israeli right is definitely selling this as the success of the prime minister. So much so that the Israeli government this week, under heavy criticism, we should say, decided to change the name of the war from Iron Swords to the war of. I would say, trying to translate the word kuma would be revival, perhaps the war of revival. Right. We were hit very hard, but now we have been revived, or, you know, resurrection. And this is what. And there are a lot of people in this country, particularly that they're people that. The. The family members that were killed on October 7th, that seem to not agree with that reading of reality. Right. Many say this is just the war of October 7th. That's what it should be called. And so, you know, that is another piece in what seems to many as an attempt to reshape the narrative of the failure of what led to October 7th. And of course, the questions since then.
- [12:48]
B
Yeah, the war of the narrative has been going on from the very start for. I mean, some of the. I remember the IDF investigation into the events of October 7th, obviously, and very significantly, we have not had the full state commission of inquiry that normally a conflict like this would have produced. Instead, we had that IDF investigation. I remember one of the things it revealed was how quickly, I mean, really, on the morning of October 7th, in the early dawn hours, Benjamin Netanyahu was making moves, speaking to colleagues in order to frame what had happened, talking to people to say, well, let's essentially, let's get our story straight. And I remember those were among some of the revelations of that investigation. The, the war of the narrative has continued. I remember our podcast friend Thomas Friedman of the New York Times noting early on how this was an oddity, this war, because it didn't have a name, a name that had entered popular culture in the same way as the Yom Kippur War or the Six Day War. He suggested it be named the worst war.
- [13:54]
A
But instead that's jinxing something because you can always say it's like calling the first of World War the Great War. You don't want to do that. There's always going to be a bigger one. So.
- [14:02]
B
No, yeah, that's right. It could always go lower. But the point being that there is something telling about the fact that this didn't immediately get a framing. It's been the longest war so far in Israel's history, taking on board your point, but it hasn't had a name. And here's this attempt by Prime Minister Netanyahu to every move he makes. Is it designed to play down or erase the grotesque sort of failures of October 7th and instead lead with and headline and put out in front the, you know, the outcomes which he feels are great successes? I do stick with my view that he has been more or less since this deal was done in re election mode, and that this is another part, this new name is another part of that, you know, election campaign that is is in its unofficial stages right now.
- [14:56]
A
It definitely is. We should notice as well that Reuters are reporting that Saudi Arabia is in talks with the US for a defense pact. Likely something in the lines of under the same kind of conditions that Qatar received. Are we seeing a sort of extension or moving towards normalization that will also be part of Netanyahu's election campaign. A speech of his in the Knesset yesterday, as the Knessetta resumed its sessions, was quite a mild one. Making you think, is that what he's trying to do now that we are indeed very much inside an election campaign already?
- [15:32]
B
Just one point about this. The goal of disarming Hamas, which obviously everybody in Israel would want and I think most of the Arab states want. They came on board with that position. Very hard. My understanding, again, talking to people involved just a little bit in this process that led to this is that the way that this is going to come is not through. For one thing, using the word disarming is a word that is heard by Hamas as surrender. And part of the point about the pro. The agreement, the Trump plan, was it neutralized. That language talked about decommissioning the weapons, as if Hamas would hand them over to some third party. They're very, very insistent, not be played for them as a surrender to Israel. So if you want that outcome, that's important. But the other thing is that it is very much something which will come about, I think, pretty well at the end of the process. Israel wants it to happen now, tomorrow. Understand that. But the diplomats who've been involved in putting this all together see it as being. It is a big move, but every other step has to fall into place. All those other steps that are of phase two, I think I said this last week, you can't just cherry pick the bit out of phase two you want, which is disarming Hamas, and pretend that all the other bits in phase two, including an eventual pathway to a Palestinian state, that those you can just kick into the long grass and postpone indefinitely. It doesn't work like that. There's a whole sequence of steps here. And what the diplomats have been saying is it does require constant grip and it means people involved day to day today, not just for the big ceremonies. That is why I think it is encouraging to finally bring it round to what's happening right now. That's why it's, I think, encouraging that Wyckoff and Kushner are coming back so quickly. It suggests that there isn't that thing that a lot of people feared, which is the Trump administration would be there for the popping of champagne corks and would then disappear. It suggests they are ready at least to be involved not just in stage one, but 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, to make sure this thing happens. This agreement has no chance at all unless somebody is gripping it day to day. And so I think there is a sign of encouragement from that involvement of the US Officials at this very high level. So soon.
- [17:54]
A
Yes. And by the way, that also, I think, has the answer of how Netanyahu is selling it to his base, which means if indeed Hamas will disarm, this is a very big success. We will, as you say, this will take more time than we would have hoped. On this day that we are doing our mid week update, it's also Netanyahu's birthday and Kim Kardashian. So the world has brought everything together the same on the same day. Just wanted to throw that at you. Huge historic figures, you know, each in their own genre. I think it's true. We will meet on Friday, our scheduled episode and then our next meeting will be in New York. Do please check out ticket info in our show notes. So we're very excited about this.
- [18:40]
B
Yeah, that's all there. The info so you can book tickets. They are going very fast. So you do make sure to book there. It will be Yonit and me, obviously, but joined by Hillary Rodham Clinton, Keren Yahimilo and Alex Edelman, all part of our lineup there in New York City. You're going to want to be there if you're in remember I said this. If you're in the tri state area, do.
- [19:03]
A
I've never met an Englishman who enjoys saying tri state area so much.
- [19:07]
B
It just does amuse me. It does amuse me. So we'll see you there in New York. That's on the 29th. And we'll see you, of course, for our regular episode at the end of the week. Do we have some thank yous?
- [19:18]
A
You'll need a big thank you to Michael Porat. And we'll see you on Friday.
- [19:21]
B
See you then.