← Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Stabbings in London, a political marriage in Israel
00:46:34
As stabbing against Jews in Golders Green rises up, again, the question of security of Jewish communities around the world, Iran and the US still calling diplomatically, and Israel starts the countdown: 6 months to the elections. Yonit and Jonathan discuss the Golders Green knife attack and the wave of antisemitism hitting Britain since October 7th; the Bennett–Lapid merger and what it means for Israel's October elections; whether the Iran–Israel war is on pause or simply reloading; Jake Sullivan's bombshell statement on arms sales to Israel; and — in the awards — Israeli police cutting a Palestinian flag from a Jewish man's kippah, and King Charles delivering a Magna Carta reminder to Congress that Democrats jumped to their feet for.
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- [00:00]
Jonathan Friedland
A vicious knife attack on the streets of London's most Jewish neighborhood. A political merger in Israel which could redraw the map of the upcoming election. It's unholy. I'm Jonathan Friedland in London and I'm
- [00:15]
Yonit Levy
Unique Levy in Tel Aviv. Unholy. Two Jews on the news. You know, Jonathan, I've been thinking about this today that I feel like for the past two and a half years, I've kind of hogged the conversation when serious things happened on this part of the conversation, meaning I would go into details about the Israeli mood and my mood, and I think perhaps a bit too granular at times on what is going on. But this is a moment where I really, really want to hear from you. And I think our listeners would want to hear about the mood of the community after the attack, another attack, antisemitism hits the streets of London again. And kind of. If you could walk us through what that feels for the whole community and what it feels like for you.
- [01:11]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah, it's a moving story. Still, as you and I speak, it's about 1:30 in the afternoon on Thursday here in London. The Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has just been to the scene in Golders Green. He was heckled there by a very angry group of Jewish people in the area who were chanting Keir Starmer, Jew Hamer, saying that he's not doing enough to protect the Jewish community. The head of the Metropolitan Police, the commissioner, was down there yesterday, along with the local mp, who is herself Jewish. They also were heckled. People are very angry. And I think a couple of times, you know, friends have reached out to me to say, look, all this stuff about us being frightened, I'm not frightened, I'm angry. And I think that's an interesting part of the mood. I think fear is definitely part of it, but anger is part of it. And the government is on the receiving end of it. It's also the suspect in this double knife attack, a double stabbing in Gorda's Green yesterday morning. He's in custody. Under the law, it's limited what we can say, but it's emerged this morning that he referred in 2020 to the government's counterextremism program, prevent. So he was on the radar of the authorities. That's, you know, so there'll be questions now about how was such a person allowed to, as it were, slip through the net. So that's just to bring people up to date in terms of the mood. I think I said the last time we were talking about one of these Sorts of incidents that people are shocked but not surprised that there was a weary and glum expectation of this. The other thing that has struck me is that I think we have coping strategies. And I, I realized that I was in a conversation at the weekend that was part of that, where a friend of mine was saying, well, look, so far there have been all these attempted arson attacks on synagogues, but they've been at night. And it suggests that the people behind it didn't intend to kill because they were doing it at night when synagogues would be empty. So at least they're not trying to kill people. That was the sort of coping strategy. Can't say that now. The next day there is some reporting that the guiding hand of Iran might be behind this string of attacks that's happened since February 28th. These are attempted firebombings of synagogues and so on. There's been some interesting investigative reporting that has shown that reporters for lbc, big broadcast cast network here, followed online what appeared to be a recruitment attempt where for a cash reward you would be encouraged to commit crimes against. So it seemed it would eventually lead to Jewish and Israel related targets. So, you know, is it the case perhaps that Iran is picking out criminals or people who are mentally unbalanced, offering them inducements to commit these attacks? Some people I think are sort of clinging hold of that because then, oh well, we can say it's a foreign actor, it's not a homegrown problem. To which I would reply, if that is the case. The fact that it's so easy to recruit people to do these things against Jewish targets tells its own story and is a problem in itself. So you can imagine and the people who are heckling the Prime Minister, what's going on, There is a sense that you've allowed this to happen. You, the government and the police authorities, the May of London, you've all allowed them, you've allowed this to happen by allowing marches pretty well every week
- [05:04]
Yonit Levy
after
- [05:04]
Jonathan Friedland
October 7th and after Israel's response to October 7th, the war in Gaza, of which they were billed as pro ceasefire marches originally, but they're sort of marches of Palestine solidarity. A lot of British Jews use the phrase hate marches. That phrase is certainly in currency in the Jewish community. The idea that these are anti Jewish marches, their defenders say no, they're people who are just mourning the dead in Gaza. But they include elements, minority, small minority. All these terms are used by different people in the argument who have indeed chanted or slogans or held up placards that you would classify as hostile to Jews. And so there are people who want those marches shut down. My own view of that is to be against it. And I could pretend it's a high minded libertarian argument about free speech. And yeah, it's partly that, but if I was really honest with you, Yonit, I would say it's partly because I know if that happens it will backfire on us. Jews will be blamed for gagging free speech one. And second, it will just drive that movement sort of. I wouldn't underground. On the contrary, actually it would just attract more people. It will become a sort of. I'm a free speech martyr. I wasn't going to march, but now I will. You know, it just puts the Jews on the wrong side of the free speech debate. And so I can't embrace that as a cool. But I get the feeling people are desperate to reach out for something, some kind of action they can take to make this stop.
- [06:35]
Yonit Levy
I was just thinking when, while you were talking how alike you and I are in certain areas where I asked you what your mood is and you gave me a very deep analysis of the community but didn't tell me what your mood is, which is.
- [06:47]
Jonathan Friedland
It was a Yonitz maneuver.
- [06:48]
Yonit Levy
It was, and it was elegantly done. But I do want to just hear a little bit more about your mood and I kind of wonder how, you know, Jonathan Friedlands is feeling today.
- [06:59]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah, I mean you and I, you'll need. I think it's not just personal psychology why we go to that sort of, you know, the big picture before we talk personally. It's partly because we are in very privileged positions which I think we are encouraged professionally to process what's going on, to sort of metabolize it. So we take all this horrible stuff in and then it immediately exits through the form of reporting. And we both do that. And I say lucky position because I think there is some kind of therapeutic value in that. I notice people around me are sort of just carrying it and don't know where to put it. And we have the chance to sort of process it and that enable, you know, and a professional impulse kicks in. And I know you've told me that often on some of the really harrowing stories you've had to cover where some part of you detaches and you go into professional mode. And that can be helpful. For myself, my children are no longer school age, but I would be lying if I didn't say there's some part of me that is relieved that they are no longer at school. They went to you Know, at different points in their schooling, they went to Jewish schools. And I remember worrying about security then, and I know I would be worried about that now. And I hear from friends who are agonizing about that and people, you know, should they drop off their kids at Sunday Hebrew school this weekend or is it. Should they skip it this week? You know, I, I also think this, this question, the phrase that's been used a lot in the last few days is visibly Jewish. And that means people who are, who wear, you know, the religious garb, ultra Orthodox Jews, or people who are men who wear a kippah and so on. I don't do those things. And maybe that, that's crossed my mind too. What would I be feeling if I was doing those things? You don't want to have to feel or think any of those sorts of impulses. And I thought the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police spoke really well yesterday when he said that British Jews are having to make decisions that no one else has to make. You know, about just being with others, going to this building, going out in the evening. You know, we've been dealing with that with, for quite a long time. I mean, you know, after Bondi beach in Australia, lighting Hanukkah candles in a public ceremony, you suddenly thinking about all these things. That said, I do notice, and it's not just a cliche about the resilience of the Jewish community. All the kind of Jewish events that are planned still go on. And this is why I always do think, I particularly Americans often feel as if, you know, they're visiting, you know, Munich in 1938. If they come to London. It really is not like that. I keep stressing this is a horrific incident. Obviously our thoughts go to the families of the two men and to the two men themselves. It's. It's horrific. But we are not cowed by it and, and we won't be. And Jewish life does still continue. And the thing I always say, as I was going to say to, you know, visitors, is it's actually unusually vibrant and active here. I do think it is more, you know, the British Jewish community is, is, I think, quite an exceptional one. How much Jewish life thrives here. And, you know, we've talked before about Le Mood, which has become an international phenomenon, a sort of big cultural festival with Jewish book week and JW3, a fantastic art center in, In North. There is something going on. A talk, a performance, a music recital, a debate. Every evening of the week, you could be at something. And there are classes and Jewish schools are thriving that is still going on, and so that is a big part of the picture. But, yeah, there is fear and there is anger and I feel elements of both.
- [10:35]
Yonit Levy
You're better at answering personal questions than I am. I should take a page out of your playbook, for sure. We mentioned Howard Richardson in our midweek episode with him. We thought he would be relevant any week. I think we didn't realize how relevant it would be for this week. And his novel, you called it the first post October 7th novel about a headmaster in London primary school basically driven mad by what he sees in the streets, the anti Jewish sentiment, the anti Zionist sentiment. And we spoke to him and we were talking to him about his emotions after October 7th and what goes through his head. Maybe we should hear a little bit of that.
- [11:15]
Howard Richardson
My wife and I often have the conversation and we have had it in the course of the last two years when things have felt very frightening. And I live in central London, so I can hear the marches every weekend. Every weekend. The march, the march and the rage of the march and the murderousness of the march. And if they're not saying, gas the Jews, I hear them saying, I hear. I know what they're saying. And they're saying. They're saying, gas the Jews. And we have said, is it safe to be here? Yes, I think so. We both thought so. But what would we have done in Berlin in 1929 or 1932 or 1935? Lots of people were smart enough to get out. Many people thought it would be all right. And many people would have thought, had to have even asked the question, even in the mid-30s, was mad. We live here, we got, we got our kids go to school here. We have a life here. I have a profession here. I'm a doctor, I'm a professor. Why would we leave? So the why would we leave? Is a vexed question and we have sometimes got the answer wrong.
- [12:25]
Yonit Levy
I mean, look, it was a very powerful interview. And he spoke about that kind of sentiment. Feeling like it's the 1930s. And you say you don't feel like that. And I think it's important. I think there are probably different emotions and different voices in the community. But it is, as you say, a scary time. And really that feeling that you're angry and not frightened, I think the community is angry and not frightened, I think is important. We talked a lot about why are we seeing so much of this now. And we were talking about that aspect of people who minimize the problem. We talked about people who are old school, anti Semites, from The right and from the left. And we also talked about what is going on, particularly since October 7th, this sort of visible attacks coming from the more extreme flanks of the Muslim world, whether it be organizations from Iran or Iran dictated or Muslim Brotherhood extremism, all of that is what we're seeing. I think if there's one thing that we can perhaps find comfort in is that when something like this happens, at least the people who tried to minimize the problem can't do that anymore. I don't think anyone in the UK can deny that this is a real problem that needs serious treatment.
- [13:43]
Jonathan Friedland
We mentioned. Did we even perhaps give him a chutzpah award? The leader of the Green Party here, who is himself Juris Zach Polanski, I think it may have been as recent as last week, but you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but who had said he wasn't sure if there was real unsafety for British Jews, but there was certainly a perception of unsafety. He said, well, hopefully the events of the last few days have now cleared that question up. Right. This isn't just a perception. You know, we can lodge that just on the book. The contrast with somebody like, you know, Howard, Howard Jacobson and what he was saying, it's true that I'm, you know, not there yet in terms of feeling like, oh, my word, this is the 1930s. On the other hand, it's, it's. If I'm really honest, there is a little bit of me which worries about that conclusion and thinks, am I the naive optimist who we know of in our past who thought everything would be okay and then were proved wrong? You know, so even as I say to you and other people, look, it's okay, keep our heads calm down. You know, I've studied the period enough in the 30s and 40s to know there were plenty of Jews who were doing that and they didn't turn out to be right? And so there's a little bit of me that checks what I'm saying. And, you know, just as some of our listeners sometimes say they have a sort of internal Yonit and an internal Jonathan in their heads. What. Even as I'm saying my position, there is a voice in there, a sort of Howard shaped voice that is saying, you should be more worried. So I'm, I'm being honest about that. That's in my mind in terms of the anger. I just wanted to say something more about that, though. Those crowds there, they're directing their anger, like I said, at the government and the mayor and the Police, that's not the place I'm in, partly because I know from people who work in the, in the communal, Jewish, communal organizations that work with the police. They are really, you know, full of praise for how the police are acting and are really working hard side by side with Jewish groups. And so there isn't really a criticism there. Even though that crowd was demanding the commissioner of the police resign. The anger I have actually is directed somewhere else. And again, I think it may have been a point I've made here before, but I would love some of those voices in the country who are always so quick to speak out against racism and to speak, for example, you know, in solidarity with the oppressed all over the world. I think it would be great if some of them stepped forward now to express uncomplicated solidarity with their fellow British citizens, their Jewish fellow citizens. I don't think it would cost them anything to do it. And I'm really struck by how they don't. And again, we've talked about it on the podcast before. You know, somebody wrote to me today and said, well, it's so difficult because Netanyahu conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism. And so no wonder there's all of this going on. And I think, well, if you don't want to conflate the two, you want to really stress they're separate. What better way could there be? If you are a fierce critic of Israel who goes marching every single Saturday through the streets of London to protest against Israel, and you'll find you're really resentful of people suggesting, perhaps even some hint that there may be antisemitism in the mix. What better way to demonstrate that you are utterly free of such antisemitism than by organizing just one, take one weekend. You don't have to do it every weekend to march in solidarity with British Jews. You can then go back to the other stuff every other week, 51 weeks of the year, but just once do that, and they're not doing it. And the celebrities who have to mention Gaza in every single interview, whatever they're doing, no mention of what's happening to British Jews, they could do it. They could do both. They don't. And the silence is deafening. And I think that's where some of my anger goes. I think those people who are proudly anti racist, who wear that badge, now's your moment. And we're noticing if you don't say anything in solidarity, that one of Britain's oldest and right now most vulnerable minorities we could do with your support and we notice when you don't offer it.
- [18:04]
Yonit Levy
I couldn't have said it better myself. Shall we lighten the mood with some discussion about Israeli politics? Jonathan, I feel like this should be our comic relief. And now our comic relief is really conflicting.
- [18:14]
Jonathan Friedland
Enough of my trauma now. Your trauma, which is the ongoing story of Israeli politics. I mean, what a fascinating week. And if this attack had not happened, I think we would have led right with this because it's a big story in Israel. AD politics. Two opposition parties merging.
- [18:31]
Yonit Levy
Yoni indeed. Look, we are at the six month mark. Elections are slated for October 27, 2026. We might say something about timing later, but right now we should say a guide to the perplexed. You're looking at the Bibi block and the anti BB block. So the big news, first major news of this election cycle we should say happens in the anti BB bloc where Naftali Bennett, former Prime Minister and Yair Lapid, Prime Minister for a shorter period, join hands in one party. They decide to run together in these elections. I'll just set the stage by saying that Naftali Bennett is a right wing politician who is religious. Yair Lapid is a center left politician who is secular. They have cooperated before. We will discuss this in a minute. Just to say Naftali Bennett's main goal is to take votes from the Bibi block, to peel off votes and to bring it to him. There's a question that we should ask. How can that be effective if you join hands with a left wing politician? That is one question. But on the other hand we should also mention that these two cooperated in 2021 and managed to replace Netanyahu in a rotation premiership. But that is sort of just setting the stage for our conversation about this.
- [19:53]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah, no, I think the memory of them working together and in a way it was a rare example of ego being put to one. Lapid I think had more seats but made way for Naftali Bennett many more.
- [20:03]
Yonit Levy
He had 17 and Naftali Bennett had six.
- [20:05]
Jonathan Friedland
Right. And he made way for the, for the junior partner in a way to be Prime Minister first just so that the deal could work. My assumption was entirely that that would happen again after an election. I always assumed that. I think you gave us a sort of fair warning that in a way Lapid's standing or his poll numbers were, were declining. And so maybe this is a case of him reaching for a life raft here, fearful that he was going to it than he might alone. But as I say, I thought this would Definitely happen afterwards. And to be honest, I thought it would be perhaps smarter to do it afterwards in the coalition horse trading rather than before for two reasons. First, there is a mixed history of these party mergers in Israel. Sometimes it really works, it leads to more than the sum of its parts. But sometimes you look at the numbers afterwards and think actually they'd have got more if they had run separately than together. But my other big concern here would be one that I think you referred to, which is Bennett is a figure of the right. He needs to get people from the right. They need to be the sort of non Netanyahu right winger who votes for him. We talked about this in the context of the comparison with Hungary, with Peter Magia, who comes from the world of Viktor Orban but was offering Orban without the anti democracy and without the corruption. In a way, that's Bennett's pitch too. I'm still a figure of the. I'm hawkish on the Palestinian question, but I'm not corrupt, I'm not on trial for corruption and I'm not going to gut Israeli democracy. That pitch is different from Lapid's pitch. Lapid, as you said, this figure of Tel Aviv and secular Israel. And I worry that Bennett has enabled now Netanyahu to have cast Bennett as a glorified leftist. Ridiculous to anyone actually looking at his position, but just culturally, vibes, you know, politics is often about the vibe of people. What vibe do they convey? He'll. He'll make Bennett look like Lapid. And I notice on Netanyahu's own social media he's already making them look like little twins and suggesting they will both be in the pocket essentially of Mansoor Abbas, the leader of the small Arab party that did make up the numbers in their change coalition. And it's a pretty shoddy, borderline racist line of attack from Netanyahu. I say shoddy because the person who first made Mansar Abbas a credible partner, legitimate partner for Israeli governments was one Benjamin Netanyahu who was absolutely talking to Mansur Abbas about bringing him in his own coalition. But those would be my concerns is that has Bennett actually made the kind of move you make after the votes accounted before?
- [22:51]
Yonit Levy
I mean, that's a good question when you talk to him. I met him on Wednesday for an interview and what he wanted essentially is to get the question of who is leading the bloc out of the picture because there's another contender for that title and that is Gadi Eisenkot. We'll get to him in a minute. He wanted it to be Very clear to make it clear that he leads the anti Bibi bloc. And it's going to be a Bennett vs Bibi election. Again, it's a question if he managed to do that. As you said, the mathematics of these kinds of, of parties that unite, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes not. If you're looking at the polls right now, the Bennett party before they joined hands was 21 in the polls, 21 seats out of 120 in the Israeli parliament. And Lapid was at seven, by the way. And indeed he was very worried of the situation of his party. So he made the right move. From his perspective, added together is 28. What they got in the polls after they decided to unite was 26. And usually you have this kind of momentum and this kind of upward trajectory. They didn't get the bounce. And I think Bennett expected that. Look, it's such an interesting relationship in Israeli politics. These are two men who entered politics in the same year, 2013. They were then the sort of younger generation of Israeli politics. I mean, today Bennett is 54 and Lapid is 62. But 13 years ago, they were the young generation. Of course, Bennett with his right wing credentials, he was the head of the Yesha Council, the organization for the seller movement. He used to work for Netanyahu. He was the, you know, air quot the kid who would poke Netanyahu from the right. And Lapid was again the sort of Tel Avivan, had a very illustrious career in television. Mind you, he anchored the weekend news on my network and also he was a late night talk show host. He was a journalist, son of a journalist who turned politician, Tommy Lapid. But Tommy Lapid had much more of a pugnacious character. He liked to argue. Lapid didn't like to argue and doesn't like to argue. He was this sort, you know, Israel's sweetheart on television. I think he never managed to translate that into politics. For the first time, they did set up a technical bloc after the elections in 2013 and said to Netanyahu, you can't take one of us, you're going to have to take both of us and thus leave the orthodox parties outside of your coalition. They managed to twist his arm as young politicians. And then the sort of tagline of these two men was born. It was called in Hebrew, Brita Achim, the Covenant of Brothers, if you will. Then they had a fallout, as we said, returned in 2021 to cooperate and replace Netanyahu. That was a very big deal. Naftali Bennett became the prime minister and as they, this right wing man set up a coalition for the first time with, as you mentioned, Ram, the United Arab List, for the first time, an Arab party in the coalition. And of course, Meretz, a left wing party. You would never have imagined naftali Bennett of 2013 doing the same. And ever since, he was blamed by the right and by the Netanyahu supporters for betraying the true right in Israel. I think that is why when he sat in a press conference this week with Yara Lapid and he said, these are the things that unite us and this is what we will stand for, he mentioned the commission eventually and he mentioned enlisting ultra orthodox to the army. And he also said one important line, we will not give one inch of our land to the enemy. Which is really trying to strengthen his street creds with the Israeli right. Because if Netanyahu would say we're not going to set up a Palestinian state, he took it even one step further in his rhetoric. This is to prove I am still a right wing politician. He did the same in the interview. But again, as you mentioned, the problem will be that now that he joined forces with Lapid, a lot of people who perhaps would think maybe we'll vote for Bennett because we can't vote for Netanyahu anymore for all kinds of reasons, are going to think twice. We will have to wait and see how this will pan out.
- [26:35]
Jonathan Friedland
I think so, because the slogan that Netanyahu would have used before would have been our vote for Bennett is a vote for Lapid. That's now literally true. So in a way, it just makes that sort of line of attack stronger. It also means that, look, should they get again, the fact that there is this distance between Lapid's historic position of advocating some kind of compromise. I mean, nobody should confuse him for a kind of leftist. He's not talking about some radical move on a Palestinian state, on the contrary. But it does mean, I think, that a future Bennett Lapid government would probably be a bit like the last one, which essentially agreed to do nothing on the Palestine Palestinian question just to keep that on ice and to concentrate on more domestic matters for a year. That was sort of fine. But in the post October 7th, I do wonder how sustainable that is to sort of agree to disagree on what is now a central, once again existential question, especially when you think about others who would have to be in this coalition. This Arab party also, by the way, just as a footnote, it's not just an Arab party, it's an Islamist party, but it's not the definition of Islamism that I think people are used to. In other words, he's actually a very sort of amenable, amicable figure, fascinating figure in politics, Mansur Abbas, you know, he's not to be like linked with what we, you know, the kind of jihadist image of an Islamist at all. Quite a culturally conservative figure. You know, if you imagine him, Yair Golan from the Democrats, formerly the Labour Party, inside that coalition, it will be quite a strain to hold these different strands together, together. And the likeliest way through that will be just to agree to do nothing. So for those people who are looking for, and in fact maybe this we should mention our listener, our illustrious listener who asked a very good question, radio legend Ira Glass, who is, we're delighted to say, a long time and devoted unholy listener. He wrote to us to say, you know, what would happen, what would be different with the Lapid Bennett government were they to win, were Netanyahu to win, be ousted from power? What difference to the big questions, the ones I've just been referring to? What difference would it make?
- [28:57]
Yonit Levy
We should probably say that Lapid, in his very short term tenure as head of a transition government, he was prime minister for four months. But he did speak in front of the UN and he did say that the two state solution is the right solution for Israel from every aspect. So that is his opinion, as you said and as Ben said in this press conference, we know we disagree on this right now, this is not on the table. Look, there is a music to this coalition that exists now. And that music is that the far right is taking Netanyahu wherever the far right wants to go, which means Smotrich is taking care of building more settlements and Itamar Bengeville is in some ways steering, some will say the police in his direction. Bennett also in this interview with me, said that, that he's worried about politicians and the political influence inside the police. So I think that that will be different. And when Israel internally is so divided, I think that some would say that this could be a difference. Naftali Bennett in general, I did say he's a right wing figure. But when he sat in the prime minister's office, even if it was for a year, he said what Eric Sharon said when he sat in the prime Minister's office. It's a famous saying in Israel. What you see from this position, you don't see from another position. Meaning it changed, changes who you are. It was clear that he was, you know, moving to the center. We should mention that there's another player in this field, and that is Gadi Eisenkot from the anti Bibi bloc. His politics somewhat between, let's say, to make it simple, somewhat between Lapid and Bennett, the former IDF chief of staff. Look, Gaddy, Eisenkot is not a man that when he enters the room, what was said about Bill Clinton, right. His charisma moves the molecules. That's not the kind of. Of person that he is, but he is. You kind of feel that when he does enter the room, the adult entered the room. Like there was an adult in the room who is, you know, thoughtful and serious and has sort of a moral backbone. He's still a contender and he's rising the polls. That's one of the reasons that Bennett wanted to kind of very quickly say, I lead the block. So we should still look at what is happening. And this is not the end of the story. It's only just the beginning.
- [31:06]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah, it really is. Well, we'll watch it closely on both Eisenhower and Ben. And I think they both fit that mode mold, which is whatever they say now, you can imagine that in office they would be flexible, they might respond to events. I was thinking of that same Sharon quote, that should there be a change in the, you know, in the tectonic plates, they would adapt to that in a way that I think with Netanyahu now, you have to conclude nothing is ever going to shift him. And it's just a guarantee of the sort of status quo with Bennett, and I think even more with Eisencott. You can at least hope that that is a possibility. And that will be something we absolutely do watch. There is, I was going to say there is a war on and we should talk about that. I mean, it's confusing to know whether we still do think of it, of the Iran versus US Israel war, what state that's in. I've been thinking of it more and more as in a kind of state of suspended animation. It's on pause. There are these sort of ceasefires that are holding. One, there are negotiations this week, Donald Trump saying that his blockade of the Strait of Hormuz and passage of goods coming out of the Strait of Hormuz, he's going to keep that potentially for months. The Iranians themselves, in response, they say, are choking off that waterway. Israel has been sort of cornered into holding off on Hezbollah targets on Lebanon, although it is still striking targets. And Netanyahu is still sort of boasting of that, that he's still doing that.
- [32:31]
Yonit Levy
But fair to say just the Israeli Wanted to mention that.
- [32:36]
Jonathan Friedland
No, absolutely right. And so that exchange is continuing is the sense that this is just what are going to pause before things resume in full or who knows?
- [32:48]
Yonit Levy
Look, I had a few in depth conversations over the weekend and the beginning of this week with the top officials in the defense echelon in this country. And first of all, Israel is definitely in a holding pattern waiting for President Trump. That is not a new position. But there are two ways this can go. It could go either to, again, from the way the Israelis analyze it, this could either go to this continued economic pressure on Iran, which will finally, Israel hopes will create a situation where Iran, Iran gives up some of what it is holding on to, particularly the uranium and other issues in a negotiation, that is to pressure Iran financially to come back to the negotiating table with a more moderate approach or that this returns to full blown war and the Israeli side here doesn't know where this is going. I should just mention I heard Udi Levi speak. He's one of the people who in the Mossad, in his very long career in the Mossad, he was following the trail of money to the terror infrastructure set up by Iran. And he said, look, what hasn't been attempted thus far is to actually choke the personal assets of the people in the top chain of command in Iran. And if that is done, then this is a different picture because at the end of the day, people can have their ideology, but they also care about, you know, having money for their families. In cases like Mujdab Khamenei, that is definitely a lot of money. So that he said has not been attempted. And that is something to try. I don't know how, how optimistic really behind closed doors the Israeli side is that this will lead to any kind of serious negotiation, this sort of financial squeeze on Iran.
- [34:37]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah. And just a reminder that Washington and the government of Israel are in different places and they have different interests and needs. And what would be acceptable, I think, to Donald Trump, which is some deal whereby the Iranians do, do manage to charge a toll on the Strait of Hormuz in return for some promised on nukes that he can say is better than Obama got, I think he would take that deal may not be enough, nearly enough for Israel, especially as you've pointed out, as they face a threat from Hezbollah in Lebanon. So I think the divergence between those two positions, again, it's sort of concealed at the moment because things are in this state of suspended animation. Should we just say one quick word on Jake Sullivan before we get to our awards Yes.
- [35:22]
Yonit Levy
I mean, we talked a lot about what is happening to the sort of moderate Democrats. We talked about Senator Slotkin and about Ram Emanuel talking about, you know, less and less being supportive of arms sales to Israel. I think we should mention that what kind of rattled Israelis both that I spoke to, both in the political echelon and the defense echelon is the things that Jake Sullivan said. By the way, he was sitting next to Rabbi Emanuel in that interview. He quoted, quoted from on Bill Maher. And he also said this is a man who was part of the Biden administration. I don't think anyone can accuse him of being anti Israel. In fact, I think he was attacked by the more left wing, the sort of extreme left parts of the Democratic Party for being too supportive of Israel. And he is saying after this war, after the fact that the president and the prime minister took the United States to a war, that he said this on this podcast as well. He didn't support. He doesn't think that arms sales should continue. And that is a very big deal coming from someone like Jake Sullivan. So that is something, and I still hear the kind of repercussions of that or that echoing here in the Israeli establishment that they noticed that he was saying this more than they noticed other voices. So I think it's something to mention. This is an interesting development. And we talked about Israeli elections a lot. They're going to happen. This is again, I think, something to mention on the calendar a few days before the midterms in the US and that's connected because if Trump loses the Senate, for example, if the Republicans lose the Senate, then that's a different leverage. And if Netanyahu wins, it's a different kind of relationship. If Netanyahu loses, it's different. I mean, there's a whole, there's a lot that will be determined in the Middle east by these two different elections happening really in a very short time span.
- [37:06]
Jonathan Friedland
So this suggests to our listeners that you now think it will run the full term. It goes to the last, last date, which would be October 27th. That would be the latest.
- [37:15]
Yonit Levy
I have changed my mind about this a little bit. I was, you know, doing a little bit of a zigzag, I admit. But at the end of the day, the person who has the power to elections are officially slated for October 27th. The person who has most power to decide on early elections is Netanyahu himself. I did say this to you in recent weeks, that if Netanyahu thought it was a shoo in and he surely will win, he would have gone for early elections. It is becoming a little late to go to early elections. He still can do it in September, on September 1st, if he thinks. But I don't think it's going there. I think we're going the long haul to October 27, 2026.
- [37:51]
Jonathan Friedland
Yes. And just a small point, which is an amazing thing and rare in Israeli politics to run the full term. Just extraordinary given October 7, 2020. Just a small note on that coincidence. If Netanyahu were to lose elections on October 27, I think that would play into the last days of campaigning in the midterm elections in the US Because Trump and Netanyahu have been such close allies, the notion that the big ultra nationalist strongman is vulnerable. Orban's gone, Netanyahu's gone. Next is Trump. That sort of narrative, I think Democrats would take encouragement from it and they would see it as they would be able to say the verdict is in on the war against Iran. Israelis have rejected it. Now Americans can do that kind of thing. It's not going to be the, you know, the main event. But I think it all just plays into a mood politically. If it were to happen that way, if it goes the other way, then Trump will take strength from it and say and suggest, you know, when you come after and challenge the leaders, it fails. And look what happened in Israel. It's so it will just be part of the mood music of that contest in November.
- [39:02]
Yonit Levy
Can we share with our listeners the fact that since it's just a week apart, you are complaining that you will have to be in Israel to cover the elections and then in the United States to cover the midterms. So we're very sorry that our crucial elections are getting in the way of your travel calendar. Jonathan, I apologize.
- [39:17]
Jonathan Friedland
It is going to get very complicated because I'm meant to be in two places at once. Sure to give myself a chutzpah award for that mention I should wear. We get to our awards for this week?
- [39:28]
Yonit Levy
I think so.
- [39:28]
Jonathan Friedland
Well, I mean, in a way, this story is almost too serious to be a chutzpah award, but because it gained a lot of attention everywhere. Alex Sinclair, Dubai's own description. A middle aged British originally citizen of Israel, sitting in his local cafe in Modiin in Israel, what he calls his second office, minding his own business, tapping away at his computer. Computer. He was wearing a kippah, the kind of kippah he's worn, he says, for the past 20 years, which bears two flags on it, the Israeli flag, but also The Palestinian flag. It's a long story, he says, but it's partly just his way of reflecting his belief in two states and two peoples, two states for two peoples and so on. But a man came over to him while he was there, fellow religious man, angry, and says, these kippari is against the law. Alex said, no, it isn't. Don't be ridiculous. Carries on working, working. Before he knows it, the police arrive and they immediately say, yep, your kippah is against the law and they're going to confiscate it as it happens. Actually, displaying a Palestinian flag in public is not against the law, but there have been some efforts to classify it as a provocation. Anyway, Alex Sinclair found himself under arrest or detained. Anyway, a policewoman took him to the police station constantly saying, either go along with us or we'll have to do it by force. And he spent a good long time in a cell with no water, no phone, et cetera, and not able to make a call, and found the whole thing pretty frightening. Eventually they return the kippah to him. He's allowed to go, but the kippah comes back with a cut in it. The Palestinian flag has been been cut out. He was obviously shaken by the event. I think our award goes to the police for doing it. But this is extremely worrying. I mean, this is an authoritarian act. When a small act of free expression suddenly involves the police, it suggests that Itamar Ben Gvir's sort of transformation of the Israeli police or his hold on the Israeli police is quite deep and serious. But it does go to civil liberties and freedom of speech. Speech there. And it's troubling as well. That is, you know, politicians, opposition politicians even, were not, I think Yair Golan of Labor did. But in general, these politicians did not condemn this. They should have done. It's an important moment, I think, in terms of civil liberties.
- [42:00]
Yonit Levy
Yeah. I mean, first of all, this made a lot of headlines both outside and inside Israel. And as you said, what many have commented on, and we have also here and there been discussing the fact that the minister responsible for the police is a far, far right minister, Itamar Ben gvir. And this percolates, this kind of goes into all kinds of ranks and all kinds of messages. I think there were many people who are appalled by this, that in Israel someone's kippah is being cut in this way. And it was actually, I should mention Naftali Bennett in this interview that I talked to you about saying. And remember, this is also a right wing figure saying There are politics that have entered the police. He actually said in some instances the police is acting in a crazy way. He didn't specifically talk about this, but it was general. And he said, I am watching these people. I'm watching the chief commission, the chief of police, and I'm watching the others. And if you act in a way that is political, I will, in his words, kick you out. And I was, you know, he was relating to how he wants to see himself as the kind of. You mentioned him, Peter Madison, the kind of person who ousted Netanyahu when he was discussing that, because that's what he did in Hungary and that is what he mentioned. So there are a lot of people who are seeing this. They're not only from the left in Israel, they're from other places as well.
- [43:20]
Jonathan Friedland
Yeah, no, that's encouraging. Tell us about the Mensch nominee.
- [43:26]
Yonit Levy
I mean, I think he deserves Mensch. I think he's received this award before, but that should not deter us from giving it to him again. Your case King, Sir, King Charles, not your personal king, the king of King Charles III in Washington, you know, doing the rounds, being quite funny, I would say. I mean, he was a hit. He could crack a joke.
- [43:50]
Jonathan Friedland
He really can. And apparently the word has come that he does his own jokes. I mean, I immediately assumed, look, first thing, Buckingham palace speechwriters are really top notch. They've done this a few times in recent years, particularly really good statements and letters. They've got the A team there. And his speeches generally were very well judged. They've gone down extremely well back home here in Britain, but also in the US but he was funny and he did do a few of these jokes. You know, he said, we're here to mark American independence 250 years ago, or as we say in Britain just the other day. And he just leaned into the idea that he was sort of like the living, breathing embodiment of the, the George III character in Hamilton. You know, the sort of king who is just sort of has the 17th or 18th century in his memory. You know, he played that role, did it really well. He was very funny. But I think credit to him, you know, for also landing some really important political points, including reminding, you know, his audience in Congress that Magna Carta British documentary originally from 1215, is cited 160 times in Supreme Court decisions, including, he said, especially judgments that emphasize the powers of, to the checks and balances on the power of the executive. Democrats leapt to their feet and as somebody observed very well, a literal king has come to America to echo the message of the no Kings movement. In other words, words, you know, it's a British tradition that you have checks and balances on the power of the man at the top. And, you know, Donald Trump, take note. So powerfully done. Very funny. And a big moment for him personally because he spent so long, obviously in the shadow of his mother and here on the biggest stage possible, he scored, he was a hit. So whatever my feelings about the institution of monarchy, which we can talk about another day, I'm happy for him to add to his crown and various jewels, his orb and scepter. We can add the Mensch of the Week award as nominated by you and
- [45:56]
Yonit Levy
I think also an official protector of the Jewish community in the uk, which means we come full circle when giving him the Mensch Award. He deserves it on a few levels. And thus we wind down our conversation. We remind our listeners that now our interviews are on our mid week episode and we have a really special one coming up on Tuesday. We will say our big thank you to Michal Porat and we will meet next week.
- [46:22]
Jonathan Friedland
We will. And just to say on our Tuesday conversation, coming up, a duo who themselves could be candidates for Mensch of the Week, all will be revealed. That's our special unholy conversation, but we'll see you then. Yoni.