Unholy: Two Jews on the News

Episode: Trump's Board of Peace – and Unholy Listeners' Therapy with Dr. Orna Guralnik

Date: January 23, 2026
Hosts: Yonit Levi (Channel 12, Israel) & Jonathan Freedland (The Guardian, UK)
Special Guest: Dr. Orna Guralnik (Clinical Psychologist & Host of Couples Therapy)

Overview:

This week’s episode of Unholy is a rich tapestry of urgent news and heartfelt listener engagement. The first half is devoted to the extraordinary events at Davos, particularly the unveiling of Donald Trump’s "Board of Peace" – a bold, controversial move to reconstruct the international order with a focus on Gaza and Israel but ambitions much broader. The hosts scrutinize the implications for Israel, the Jewish world, and the global order.

The latter half pivots to the emotional and social fissures post-October 7th in Jewish and Israeli life, as Dr. Orna Guralnik guides listeners through "Unholy listeners' therapy." In a groundbreaking segment, Dr. Guralnik joins two young listeners for a live therapy session on bridging divides created by the Israel/Palestine conflict, offering wisdom on dialogue, friendship, and reconciliation.

Section I: News Discussion: The Trump "Board of Peace" (04:55–26:48)

Davos Drama: The "Board of Peace" Revealed

• Context: At Davos, Trump unveils a new international body, the "Board of Peace” – originally conceived as a postwar governance mechanism for Gaza but now pitched as a UN alternative.
• Structure: Heavily bureaucratic, with an executive board (Kushner, Rubio, Tony Blair, etc.), an Office of the High Representative, and technical subcommittees – with Trump as "President" for life (even after leaving U.S. presidency) and the power to appoint his successor.
• Logo: The branding is styled after the UN’s, but dipped in gold and focused on the U.S. – “imagine the UN logo dipped in gold...the map at the center showing basically America and the rest of the world slightly squeezed out" – Freedland, [06:07].
• Membership: Billion-dollar “pay to play” for permanent seats; Qatar, Turkey, Egypt involved, as well as ambitious invitations to autocratic leaders.

Israeli Perspectives & Concerns

• Israeli Scepticism: Division between pro- and anti-Netanyahu ("Bibi") camps over the implications for Israel and Gaza.
  • Netanyahu supporters claim: "This is what you get when you call for ‘just end the war and bring back the hostages’" – Levy, [10:12].
  • Opponents argue: “We said you have no strategy...bring in the Palestinian Authority into Gaza to replace Hamas” – Levy, [10:27].
• Security Issues: Fears over Qatar/Turkey involvement in Gaza (“worrying from the Israeli perspective,” [09:47]), skepticism over the practicality of removing Hamas.
• Symbolic Actions: Rafah border crossing soon to reopen under Trump’s edict, overruling previous Israeli conditions.
• Bureaucracy Irony: “You’d have thought the business mindset would be let’s cut through all the UN bureaucracy, not set up more,” quips Freedland, [12:14].

Key Quotes & Perspectives

• On Transactionalism:
  “Donald Trump is transactional. He gives to those people who can profit him the most...those Gulf states...Netanyahu gives me a headache.” – Freedland, [19:45]
• On Israeli Leverage:
  “After October 7th, [Netanyahu] brought the Americans in very, very unprecedentedly from the very beginning. Now he has even less leverage to tell Trump what to do.” – Levy, [17:26]
• Specter of a Palestinian State:
  “What if...those Gulf states say: we have to have language on Palestinian statehood, now? Trump listens to those people...he can turn on a dime if it suits him.” – Freedland, [18:53]
• Iron Dome Credit Dispute:
  “I told Bibi stop taking credit for the Iron Dome. That’s our technology.” – Trump (quoted by Levy, [16:27]); “No, it’s not...Iron Dome is Israeli developed” – Levy.

Election Dynamics in Israel

• Political Realignment:
  • Former Chief of Staff Eisenkot proposes a “big joint party” to challenge Netanyahu; uncertainty around unity vs. fragmentation in the opposition.
  • Benny Gantz positions as possible ‘Netanyahu-sans-far-right’ unity government leader: “He’s counting on those people who will say, I’m okay with Netanyahu being PM, just not this extreme government” – Levy, [27:02].
  • The anti-Netanyahu camp, however, is described as in “disarray,” bolstering’s Netanyahu’s standing, [27:33].

Section II: Unholy Listeners' Therapy with Dr. Orna Guralnik (28:58–74:51)

Introduction: Fractured Relationships Post-10/7

• Widespread reports from listeners of deep rifts in families and friendships, inside and beyond the Jewish world.
• Goal: Create a model for bridging differences through open, respectful conversation, guided by Dr. Orna Guralnik.

Dr. Guralnik’s Insights on Conflict and Dialogue

• Foundational Approach:
  “The idea of separating out the very specific content that you might disagree on and the process that you’re moving through to have the conversation is super important.” – Guralnik, [00:00], repeated [72:04]

• Principles for Difficult Conversations:

  • Focus on process as much as substance
  • Recognize and respect lived histories and perspectives
  • The goal isn’t to ‘win’ but to understand and expand perspective
  • Compassion and curiosity over judgment

Case Study: Benjamin and Albert, Danish High School Friends (35:11–67:21)

Background:

• Benjamin: 19, Danish-Israeli heritage, identifies Jewishly, strong connection to Israel.
• Albert: 18, Jewish lineage but secular, little personal connection to Israel, emphasizes justice.

Their Disagreement:

• Clashes over the West Bank, Gaza war, Nakba—intentions vs. consequences.
• Benjamin: “I focus a lot on intention...Albert focuses more on consequences” [37:33]
• Albert: “What’s actually happening?” [37:40]

The Strength of Friendship:

• Both adamant that disagreement on Israel/Palestine shouldn't end the friendship.
• “Just because we don’t agree on everything politically doesn’t mean we can’t be friends...when you have friends you disagree with, you grow so much.” – Benjamin, [38:05]
• “There’s only very few specific political things that would make me say I can’t be friends with you.” – Albert, [39:08]

Breakthrough Moment:

• A tense but transformative train ride discussion led to greater tolerance and understanding:
  • “On the train, I think we mostly discussed the war in Gaza...couldn’t leave, made us discuss it fully,” – Benjamin, [57:37]
  • “It really got to me that I was creating a bad feeling for him for something I did...that is too stupid to actually personally affect my best friend in a negative way.” – Albert, [56:03]

Lessons Learned:

• Never fight by text: “Don’t fight on text – that is a really, really important observation.” – Freedland, [69:46]
• Mutual respect makes hard conversations sustainable.
• Bias awareness: Both acknowledge personal biases and ongoing effort to avoid them dominating.
• Empathy and Nuance: Both seek to “nuance” the other’s position rather than “win.”
• Value in "process talk:": Discuss not just the issue, but how the conversation is going.

Dr. Guralnik’s Praise:

• “I would like to suggest...that you bottle this. This attitude needs to be bottled and sent out into the world somehow.” [39:33]
• “They embody everything that we want the world to have – such respect for each other despite difference, deep friendship, trust...capacity to really examine themselves and learn from each other.” [68:46]

Generalized Guidance to Listeners:

• Don’t communicate only by text for major disagreements
• Allow for breaks; sometimes talk about something else
• Give the benefit of the doubt; “The purpose of the conversation is not to win, but to learn” – Guralnik, [74:17]
• Tend to the relationship as much as to the disagreement

Memorable Moments:

• Yonit: “Maybe I’m wrong, maybe you’re right...really is what you wish a conversation could look like.” [70:35]
• Dr. Guralnik: “Their attention to the relationship is part of how they sustain the conversation. How do we have the conversation is part of the conversation.” [71:07]

Section III: Chutzpah & Mensch Awards (75:25–83:43)

Chutzpah Candidates:

• Trump’s UK Jewish Refugee "Protection":
  Trump’s lawyer suggesting asylum for UK Jews—“not helpful” and alarmist, rooted in U.S. right-wing memes about the UK, says Freedland, [76:01].
• Jewish Prayer at the Temple Mount:
  Israel police permitting printed Jewish prayers at the al-Aqsa compound, a small change with potentially explosive consequences, tied to Ben Gvir’s influence, [76:53].
• Kamala Harris, Josh Shapiro, and Alleged Israeli "Agent" Question:
  Kamala Harris’s team allegedly asking Josh Shapiro if he was "an agent of the Israeli government" during vice-presidential vetting—labeled “beyond chutzpah” and “pretty shocking...a hoary old trope about Jews and their loyalties,” [79:55].

Mensch of the Week:

• Israeli Public Broadcaster (KAN):
  Yonit praises KAN for bringing the French intelligence drama Le Bureau (“Hasoknot”) to Israeli screens: “I will finally get to see this series...it’s a slightly strange Mensch Award this week.” [81:56]
• Jonathan’s endorsement: “You’ve got such a treat in store.” [82:47]

Section IV: Memorable Quotes & Takeaways

News Analysis

• “Trump’s Board of Peace is essentially a rival to the UN, except you have to pay to play.”
• “If you’re in the hands of Donald Trump, that is not a reliable place to be. Just ask Denmark.” – Freedland, [15:51]
• “The international order, the postwar order, is being removed and replaced, dismantled by Donald Trump.” [08:45]

Therapy & Dialogue

• “There’s always a multiplicity of positions and opinions when people interact...The purpose of an interaction is to expand our understanding, not to make people the same.” – Dr. Guralnik, [33:24]
• “Hold on to your perspective that the other person is a good person, even if they think differently.” – Dr. Guralnik, [72:49]
• “The purpose of the conversation is not to win, but to learn.” – Dr. Guralnik, [74:17]
• “Give me the benefit of the doubt.” – Freedland, reflecting on personal experience, [73:09]

Section V: Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 04:55–16:27 | Board of Peace at Davos / Implications for Israel | | 16:27–22:56 | Israeli political reactions and fact-checking | | 22:56–27:33 | Israeli political realignments and elections | | 28:58–34:58 | Introducing Listener Therapy with Dr. Guralnik | | 35:11–67:21 | Live therapy: Benjamin & Albert’s friendship | | 67:21–74:51 | Dr. Guralnik’s reflections / takeaways for listeners| | 75:25–84:08 | Chutzpah/Mensch Awards & wrap-up |

Tone and Style

• The discussion is fast-paced, witty, but nuanced—even in the midst of disagreement and dark news.
• Therapy segment is warm, encouraging, and emotionally candid, with hosts and guest openly discussing their own relationships and vulnerabilities.

Final Thoughts

This episode of Unholy pairs world-shaking news with the very human work of maintaining relationships in times of division. The Trump "Board of Peace" segment is incisive and filled with skepticism about grand designs and ulterior motives, while the therapy segment with Dr. Orna Guralnik offers rare hope and concrete advice for “doing disagreement” without destruction. Both threads paint a vivid portrait of this historical moment, from Israel’s political anxiety to the daily, personal work of bridge-building and good faith.

Recommended for:
Listeners seeking in-depth analysis of global politics, intimate perspectives on Jewish life after October 7th, and tangible advice for navigating difficult conversations in their own communities.