Podcast Summary: Unholy: Two Jews on the News

Episode: Two Jews or Not Two Jews - with Sir Nicholas Hytner

Date: June 22, 2023
Hosts: Yonit Levi (Channel 12, Israel) & Jonathan Freedland (The Guardian)
Guest: Sir Nicholas Hytner, acclaimed theatre director

Episode Overview

This engaging episode blends deep analysis of the week’s dramatic events in Israel—including violent incidents in the West Bank and ongoing domestic upheaval—with a richly entertaining and culturally insightful interview with Sir Nicholas Hytner, celebrated director of London’s Bridge Theatre. The conversation delves into the enduring appeal and Jewish roots of American musical theater, contemporary interpretations of classics like Guys and Dolls, and the evolving debates about representation in the arts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Israeli News Recap: Violence, Political Turmoil, and Social Tensions

[00:09–12:56]

• West Bank Tragedy:

  • Four Israelis killed in Eli settlement attack by Palestinian gunmen.
  • Surge in revenge attacks by settlers, notably riots and arson in the Palestinian village of Tumus Ayah.
  • Israeli authorities increasingly seen as unable to control settler violence.
  • Yonit Levi: “What is happening now that we're seeing this frequency of revenge from the settler side?... This is a government that doesn't have its hand in controlling this part of Israeli society.” [04:57]

• Escalating Pattern of Violence:

  • Jonathan refers to recent high-profile attacks (e.g., Dee family) and queries if these are now an established tactic.
  • Yonit: Israel is enduring an ongoing “terror wave,” facilitated by a weakened Palestinian Authority and a distracted government.

• Druze Community Unrest:

  • Protests in northern Israel ostensibly about wind turbines, but rooted in deep-seated grievances—discrimination, nation-state law, slow building permits.
  • Yonit draws connections: “It's another indication that this government isn't tough enough... it looks like it's losing control over its own civilians.” [06:34]

• Mainstream Israeli Reaction to Settler Violence:

  • Public shock and disapproval: “I don't feel like there is support for these… price tag [revenge] events… The mainstream Israel is still very much against these acts.” [08:23]

2. Judicial Overhaul & Legal Politics

[08:46–12:56]

• Judicial Reform Remains Central:

  • Bar Association elections unusually prominent as a proxy battle in the broader fight over judicial reforms.
  • Reform-opponent Amit Becher wins “by a landslide”—bad news for Netanyahu’s coalition.
  • Netanyahu signals intention to resume judicial overhaul “very, very moderately,” stalling full legislative push.

• Coalition’s Response to Setbacks:

  • Talk of dismantling Israeli Bar Association or revising Judicial Appointments Committee.
  • Yonit: “The biggest mistake made by this coalition is saying we're going to try to steamroll the whole thing… quickly as possible. That failed. So now he's saying I'm going to moderately pass at least the reasonableness clause.” [11:40]

• Explanation of the Reasonableness Clause:

  • Jonathan: “The Supreme Court could overturn decisions of government… on the grounds that they were unreasonable. For Netanyahu and his allies, that was seen as… overreach.” [12:36]

3. Interview: Sir Nicholas Hytner on Theatre, Jews, and the American Musical

[13:21–54:25]

A. Innovations in Theatre Staging

[14:06–19:21]

• Guys and Dolls at the Bridge Theatre:

  • Major innovation: immersive staging with audience in the “action pit.”
  • Hytner inspired by “promenade” and immersive theatre experiences from his youth and by international influences.
  • Nick: “If you make theater... the first things you see register with you very strongly… I’ve been trying to recapture the spirit of those ever since.” [15:12]

• Reaching Young Audiences:

  • Cheap “standing” tickets subsidized by more expensive seating.
  • Hytner theorizes that the more digital the world becomes, the more audiences will value live experiences:
  • Nick: “The TikTok generation, the online generation, wants to be there live, even if they can't see the live Beyoncé very big at all. Live will... get more and more important the more digital the rest of the world gets.” [18:36]

B. The Jewish Roots of the American Musical

[20:23–24:24]

• The American musical is “basically a Jewish form”—with the notable outlier Cole Porter (“the only one who wasn’t Jewish”).
• Hytner discusses how Jewish immigrants' experiences as cultural outsiders shaped their ability to synthesize diverse influences into the American musical.
• Quote: “There’s no nonsense about cultural appropriation. Here are some first generation Jews... shamelessly, joyfully, proudly drawing upon any number of traditions and channeling them into this great art form.” [22:12]
• Reciprocal influence: “Miles Davis improvised a lot on themes by Jewish composers of American musicals.” [22:56]

C. Navigating Modern Sensibilities with Classic Material

[24:24–28:13]

• Hytner addresses how Guys and Dolls’s gender dynamics needed a modern touch:

  • The Havana/drinking scene was staged to make Sarah Brown knowingly complicit—subverting dated connotations.
  • Added a “gay bar” twist to a cat-fight scene, modernizing with inclusivity and gentle subversion, which prompted audience questions about Sky Masterson’s sexuality.
  • Nick: “As long as Sarah Brown knows what she's drinking... the whole thing is fine.” [25:54]
  • Nick on the gay bar scene: “I thought we were all supposed to be okay with that now.” [27:10]

• Reflections on changing audience responses:

  • Jonathan shares millennials’ reactions: “The story was really, I mean, very problematic. It was about gambling and misogyny.” [28:13]

D. Jewishness and Casting in Theatre

[33:28–36:16]

• Personal background: Hytner's path as a British Jewish director; family supporting a theater career despite cultural stereotypes.
• Modern debates on authenticity in casting:
  • Hytner empathizes with calls for minority representation but hopes for a future where “all actors should be able to play everything.”
  • Nick: “It would feel very odd to me to watch Jewish material with no Jewish input at all… but I don't mind seeing non Jews play Jewish parts, and I don't mind seeing straight people play gay parts... I hope it's transitional.” [35:06]

E. Grappling with the Holocaust and American Theatre

[36:16–39:53]

• Jonathan explores how post-war Jewish Broadway didn't directly address the Holocaust until the 1960s (e.g., Fiddler on the Roof, Cabaret, The Producers).
  • Hytner: For decades, Jewish artists couldn’t confront the Holocaust directly—Fiddler marked a “sea change” by being overt in its Jewishness:
  • Nick: “For 20, 30 years after the war, everybody was in denial, weren't they? And not so much in denial as not able to confront the full enormity of it.” [38:33]

F. Art vs. Commerce; Shakespearean Reflections

[40:26–42:52]

• Hytner discusses the balance between artistic ambition and commercial realities:

  • Shakespeare himself exemplified pairing artistry with popular appeal.
  • Nick: “Shakespeare is, from the British point of view, the original balancing act... There's a huge tension... between the two traditions that we drunk in from when we were children.” [40:48]

• On the enduring popularity of Shakespeare versus other playwrights:

  • “Shakespeare is kind of as popular as he's great. Still.” [42:41]

G. Arthur Miller, Personal Encounters, and Artistic Legacy

[42:52–54:25]

• Hytner’s experiences with Arthur Miller show the intersection of personal and political in American theatre.

  • Miller's approach to adapting The Crucible for film, weaving in personal and historical trauma.
  • Revelatory anecdote: casting Abigail Williams, Miller references Marilyn Monroe, hinting at personal inspiration behind his work.
  • Nick: “I absolutely, hand on heart, swear that when I asked about Abigail Williams, he talked about Marilyn Monroe. It's the only time he mentioned her.” [48:26]

• On Maggie Smith’s method: “She beats herself up all the time until she gets to a place where she thinks she's giving it her best shot...driven by a sense she can never quite achieve what it is that she wants to achieve.” [49:25]

• Legacy and ephemerality of theatre:

  • Hytner unfazed by the impermanence of live performance: “There’s no angst. It’s the nature of the theater… It’s its glory, really.” [52:32]

4. Weekly Awards: Chutzpah & Mensch of the Week

[54:45–60:42]

• Chutzpah Award:

  • Minister Meir Porush (United Torah Judaism) for criticizing reservists who resist military service due to judicial overhaul—despite Ultra-Orthodox historically being exempt.
  • Yonit: “If you represent a community that doesn’t enlist, maybe you don’t want to critique any part of Israeli society that does.” [56:54]

• Mensch of the Week:

  • Multiple posthumous awards to Daniel Ellsberg (Pentagon Papers whistleblower) and Sir Ben Helfgott (Holocaust survivor, Olympic athlete, educator).
  • Special mention: Tel Aviv University finally removing Sackler name from its medical school (after years of pressure over the family's role in the opioid crisis).
  • Yonit: “It's never too late to do the right thing.” [59:35]

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Hytner on the essence of the American musical:

  • “The American musical is basically a Jewish form. There’s only one great composer… who wasn’t Jewish—Cole Porter… I think the Jewish community in New York… was a kind of crucible for everything that fed into this great immigrant city.” [21:33]

• Hytner on revising musical classics for now:

  • “The spectacle of a man deliberately getting a woman drunk… turns the audience right off. It’s in fact possible to turn that on its head without really changing a word, as long as Sarah Brown knows what she's drinking.” [25:54]

• Hytner on authenticity in casting:

  • “It would feel very odd to me to watch Jewish material with no Jewish input at all… but I don't mind seeing non-Jews play Jewish parts, and I don't mind seeing straight people play gay parts… I hope it's transitional.” [35:06]

• On the legacy of live theatre:

  • “There’s no angst. It’s the nature of the theater as a medium. It’s its glory, really.” [52:32]

• On Maggie Smith’s genius:

  • “[Maggie Smith] is an acting genius… She’s driven by a sense… she can never quite achieve what it is that she wants to achieve.” [49:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Israeli news analysis: [00:09–12:56]
• Interview: Sir Nicholas Hytner: [13:21–54:25]
  • Guys and Dolls, immersive theatre: [14:06–19:21]
  • Jewishness in the American musical: [20:23–24:24]
  • Modernizing classics & gender politics: [24:57–28:13]
  • Authenticity & casting debates: [33:28–36:16]
  • Holocaust & Broadway Jewishness: [36:16–39:53]
  • Balancing art & commerce, Shakespeare: [40:26–42:52]
  • Arthur Miller anecdotes: [42:52–48:37]
  • Working with Dame Judi Dench & Maggie Smith: [48:53–51:45]
  • On legacy in the ephemeral theater: [51:45–54:25]
• Awards segment (Chutzpah, Mensch): [54:45–60:42]

Overall Tone & Takeaways

Rich in both humor and thoughtful critique, this episode wove breaking news and cultural commentary into an illuminating portrait of Jewish creativity's role in shaping modern theatre. Hytner’s anecdotes and insights situate both Guys and Dolls and the wider American musical tradition as quintessentially Jewish, forged in the vibrant diversity and optimism of 20th-century New York—but also responsive to changing social mores and the ongoing debates over representation. The podcast’s signature blend of sharp analysis, warmth, and wit makes it essential listening for those interested in the intersection of Jewish life, politics, and the arts.