← Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Two Jews take on Christmas
00:26:30
Yonit and Jonathan explore the intersection of Jewish identity and Christmas traditions, discussing how Jews navigate the holiday season, the cultural significance of Christmas in Israel, and the impact of Christmas films on perceptions of the holiday. They delve into the complexities of assimilation, the evolution of Jewish customs around Christmas, and the portrayal of Christmas in popular culture.
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- [00:18]
A
Well, the clue is in the music. You'll have noticed it's been new and improved with literal jingle bells there. I'm Jonathan Friedland in London.
- [00:28]
B
I'm Anit Levi in Tel Aviv.
- [00:30]
A
And it's Unholy, our special for Christmas, because as the music gave away, it is that time of year. Some of you may have noticed that outside it is that day, that time of year. Obviously a massive deal all over the world. Except your need, surely where you are. You're the one exception, aren't you?
- [00:51]
B
Well, a little bit of caveats to that. We'll talk about that in a moment. But yes, this will be the episode in which two Jews take on Christmas for sure.
- [00:59]
A
Whether Jews mark this or not and whether Jews in Israel mark it even at all. I mean, my assumption is they don't. But, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, we can. We can plunge right in.
- [01:10]
B
I always do. We'll get to Israel and, and what happens here? I think it's really interesting because some of the more commercialized aspects, the American aspects of Christmas have sort of trickled down. Of course, when you add to that the Russian community celebrating a novigod the end of the New Year, the Russian New Year's, well, we'll get to all that. But I think one of the interesting things when we talk about Jews and Christmas is particularly that Jews, I mean, you know this much better than I do, feel kind of outsiders on Christmas. And they have developed over the years their different sort of ways to feel part of the traditions, you know, kind of strip away the theology, but yes, still kind of take part in the. In the traditions or carve themselves their unique own traditions on Christmas, which has.
- [02:00]
A
Definitely happened in America most obviously, where there's a whole kind of American Jewish minhag around or custom around Christmas of going to the movies and then eating Chinese food, which turns out to have a really interesting origin. That there were actually, you know, in those areas of New York in the early waves of Jewish, you know, immigration to the United States, who were Jews neighbors in some of those parts of Brooklyn, the lower east side, etc. There were Chinese communities there and Chinese restaurants were open. That's, we're told that's how it started. It turns out there's a rabbi who has made a real study of this area of research and has gone sort of full Talmudic on how exactly it happened. I came across a concept I didn't know about, about a sort of hidden trafe, which I love this idea that Jews who are completely you know, they do, did observe and do observe kashrut. Nevertheless, quite like Chinese food, because there might be pork, but it would be hidden inside a sort of wonton, and therefore you could pretend you hadn't really been aware it was there. Which I think is a brilliant piece of sort of, you know, Jewish reasoning. It reminded me a bit of those people, and I know many of them who have holiday rules when it comes to kashrut. You know, they are observant inside the house, they're observant even outside. But when they go on holiday, then they allow themselves to eat shellfish and pork and so on. So apparently this was the concept of plausibly deniable trafe. Safe trafe, it was known as, meaning Chinese food where the pork was hidden. So that's all part of it. In my own upbringing, it was, you know, you said about Jews feeling like outsiders. It was a very much a kind of conscious, deliberate effort. It's not like we were excluded actively from Christmas or we were sort of shut out and we was there pressing our faces against the glass, desperate to get in. I think we sort of opted out of it. We took ourselves out of it. I think I may have mentioned on the. On the podcast in previous years, my beloved great Aunt Yehudit, or Yiddis as her name was, said. Yiddi, we all called her, who wouldn't say the word. She would literally say Kratzmach, a sort of Yiddish formulation, to kind of avoid saying it. It's the Yiddish equivalent, really, in a way of writing a Xmas, so that you don't say Christmas, which I have to say is still my habit. I write Xmas partly because it's shorter, but there was an avoidance. And so, you know, my family, we had a little growing up, we had a very, very small flat by the seaside in the town of Bournemouth, where there's a small Jewish community. And we would go there. But I think it was deliberate, this. We would actually travel down there on Christmas Day. So, in other words, when everyone else was having the big lunch and turkey and gifts, we were sort of on the M20 motorway, as if deliberately to make sure that it was a kind of nothing day. I think things have moved on a bit since then, but I think opting out of it is part of it. I don't think it's the case that, you know, Jews are denied access to it if they want it.
- [05:09]
B
Yeah, I think you're right about it being a little bit more sort of intricate. I mean, obviously there is how shall we call it a complicated relationship between Judaism and Christianity? Namely, we gave them their savior and they weren't actually, they didn't show gratitude over a few millennias. But, but you know, it's interesting. When I was growing up in la, in Chicago, I remember that when I was once trying to explain what Jews are, and I was a very little child, I was a small child, so forgive me for this, but I tried to explain, you know, who are the Jews? And I said, the Jews are the people who don't have Christmas. So this is, this runs good working definition? Yes, I think so. But I think it obviously has become a little bit different. There are many Jewish families who do actually decide not to opt out and do have a Christmas tree. I think we, we saw this Pew research. Something like 32% of American Jews say that they have also a Christmas tree in their house. Of course, it's a different kind of prevailing tradition if this is an inter faith marriage. But there are the Jews, and particularly if they're not devout and not very religious. Because here, for example, in Israel, if you're very religious, you're not gonna come close to near a Christmas tree. But I think that that is part of the story of trying to be, take part in the tradition to show, you know, the kids that they can do this and that of course it comes under criticism when Doug Emhoff, you know, had this picture posted, this picture of his family with a Christmas tree. And obviously this is an interfaith marriage that came under a lot of critique, but it is something that I think some families are wrestling with what to do. Do you sort of embrace this tradition or not?
- [06:45]
A
Yeah. Doug Hemmoff being the second gentleman who didn't make it to become the first gentleman.
- [06:50]
B
I used to be the next first gentleman of the United States. What he could say.
- [06:54]
A
So husband of Kamala Harris, mixed marriage. They, he had the, the, the tree. And yeah, I was quite surprised by that figure, the, that Pew Research figure. One in three American Jews having a Christmas tree. I was surprised because I thought it would be higher. And it's interesting to me that two in three are saying, no, they don't want a Christmas tree. And I say that partly because the tree really has been sort of and maybe always was truthfully stripped of any religious significance. And it is a kind of winter symbol and the lights and so on. And an argument, I think I may have let you and others in on this before, but it. Every year, perennially, although ever more feebly, inside this household, my beloved bride occasionally makes the argument that, you know, it's, it's part of the. It's just a winter symbol. It's nice, it's kind of folk tradition, but it's so associated in my mind with that step towards assimilation that no, we don't have a Christmas tree.
- [07:55]
B
I mean, remember that opening scene of Lobelstadt, that amazing play by Tom Stoppard? Right? The family, the doomed family about to. You know, we know this as the people in the audience. What is going to happen to them in the Holocaust? But it starts with this huge Christmas tree and the sign of assimilation and the family that tries to assimilate the foreshadowing of this and what will happen to them. Right, but this is, you know, obviously I understand what you're saying about that being a sign of, of assimilation of an.
- [08:24]
A
Well, and there, if I remember rightly, I think there's the, it's the, as you say, opening scene and they have decorating the tree and then at the top they put a magentavid, a Star of David at the top of the tree as if to say we can and do combine both. We can be both. We've got a Christmas tree, but it's a Jewish Christmas tree. And of course that, as you said, it's foreshadowed that that attempt to have both is so sort of doom laden. And so we've gone, we, we haven't ever gone near it. It's not the same as putting a crucifix on your house, but it felt emotionally growing up that it would be akin to doing that. So now we avoided that. But it's amazing that, you know, there are a lot to do. And by the way, in terms of Chris Mukher, there was this effort to rebrand the tree as a Hanukkah bush and to say instead, you know, we've. Now that was a thing in America we've talked about. We've got a Hanukkah bush, not a Christmas tree. I mean, reading into this, it can be.
- [09:22]
B
And look, we can light it for eight days straight, right?
- [09:25]
A
Yes, Hanukkah Bush and. Well, that is interesting, isn't it? Because they always, obviously the tree lasts for ages before they all lug them out, I think of January 6th. But it turns out that has a history that at first American Jews were relatively relaxed. I was surprised to read this that Louis Brandeis and others did have a Christmas tree because they saw it as completely secular. They saw it as a winter thing. And the theory was that actually it was in relatively recent decades, particularly with the birth of the state of Israel, that American Jews began to develop a different identity which said Hanukkah is this festival of Jewish renewal and Jewish renaissance. And. And. And therefore our symbol is going to be the. The lit. Hanukkiah, the Manar rather than the. The tree. And it sort of. It went another way. And apparently, you know, Christians themselves, Christian sort of activists and you know, clerics welcome this because they wanted to reassert the Christian nature of Christmas, that it wasn't just a secular thing, that everyone could do it. And so that led to a sort of part. Things have a kind of their own backstory.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah. I think Theodore Herzl had his own Christmas tree in his own house. Right. Father of Zionism. I mean, that is quite a thing when you think about it. I think we should mention that most of the very popular Christmas songs, Let it Snow and Write Christmas and Rudolph the Red Nose. Right. All of this written by Jews. I think it's an important thing to Big time. We're a talented bunch.
- [11:00]
A
Well. And so it's so fitting that Jewish immigrants would do that because it's exactly analogous to the tree story. Well, I was going to say in like the. The movies and Hollywood, you know, the. That brilliant book, An Empire of Their Own. What a fantastic title about how the American Jews made Hollywood. And it's cause it was because they were thinking, we are not let into the inner circle of American life. So we'll invent. Will imagine. Will what it is. And the whole Hollywood depiction of. Of the sort of Midwestern home with the white picket fence and everything. It's all Jews who are in the Bronx or in Brooklyn. They're imagining this idealized version of Americana. Jews writing Christmas songs. I mean, famously white Christmas written by one Israel Berlin or Irving Berlin, as he became one of a whole lot of Jews who wrote Christmas songs. All part of the American attempt to assimilate and to somehow define what American life was as they at least imagined it.
- [11:59]
B
And with God Bless America, by the way. And that connects. And I think it's not a coincidence. Right. The woman who invented Barbie, the sort of symbol of Americana is of course Jewish. It's all that part of taking stock in the story, in the American story. And also the fact that I think the music industry in those years was relatively open to Jews, relatively less anti Semitic. So that would allow for that kind of talent to burst through. If we are on the ish, you know, topic of music, we should mention the Saturday Night Live song From I think 2005 that we both only recently discovered we should embarrassingly say about.
- [12:36]
A
Are we allowed to hear a little bit of it? Just a burst of it.
- [12:39]
B
Just a little bit of it.
- [12:40]
A
I think we should.
- [12:46]
B
It's Christmas time for the Jews.
- [12:53]
A
Ain't nobody recreated let's us hail, gather, rewind live Let the negro do Christmas time for the Jews they can finally seeking hope without waiting in line they.
- [13:08]
B
Can eat in Chinatown and drink their.
- [13:10]
A
Sweet and wine they can drink.
- [13:15]
B
Christmas.
- [13:16]
A
Time It's almost worth playing that again if you've got the video of it. Just because you don't want to miss a single lyric.
- [13:22]
B
The night the Jews control the town.
- [13:24]
A
Right. I mean, it's fantastic that. I love that because obviously there's a sort of, you know, it's playing with anti Semitic tropes about Jewish control and everything, like checklists.
- [13:33]
B
They can crank Barbra Streisand in the streets they cruise. That is a quote from the song. It's just so good. It's very good.
- [13:39]
A
It is. And there's one.
- [13:40]
B
It almost eclipse the Adam Sandler Hanukkah song.
- [13:43]
A
I think it does. And in the video version of it, which is done like a kind of 1960s, you know, Ronette's video or something, there's a great little moment where the Jews, when they tiptoe out at night while all the gentiles having Christmas, they remake the nativity scene and turn it into the cast of Seinfeld. No, it's. I mean, there's just an American Jewish confidence which is, I think, peculiar to that community in Diaspora because I just don't. That. That was one clear example when you watch that. That's. That's not a joke that British Jews would ever make. I think it just wouldn't work. The idea that Jews controlling the town on Christmas night. I think I may have talked about this before. It's around 30 years ago when I was a cub reporter for BBC News and on. And I thought it would be obviously the right thing to volunteer to work on Christmas Day so that people could be with families and so on. So I turn up for work. That night's news was edited by a guy called Steve Rose. The first report was from Joshua Rosenberg. The second report was from John Silverman. The third report was from Jonathan Friedland. And I thought, is anyone noticing this? Do you think. Do you think any of the viewers are noticing who's putting out the news today on Christmas? Yeah, we were doing our bit, I think, to give our colleagues the day off. But I worried afterwards that somebody would tape it and say, this is who controls the media in Britain.
- [15:07]
B
Why did I never see. Why did I never get to see the cub television reporter Jonathan Friedland? Why do I not have any sort of video of this at all?
- [15:16]
A
Well, I'm glad to see.
- [15:17]
B
This could be my Chanukah gift.
- [15:19]
A
Please don't from you today. It could be from. It could be. Luckily this is pre Internet.
- [15:24]
B
Yeah, this is a challenge. I am going to get my hands on this footage.
- [15:27]
A
Do try it. You'll discover why I made my career in print journalism instead. Once you watch that. Yeah, that was a short and inauspicious stint.
- [15:41]
B
So, I mean, if we want to talk a little bit about what Christmas looks like over here, first of all, in Tel Aviv it is 25 degrees Celsius, which is like 77 degrees Fahrenheit. So discussing Christmas at all is a very weird experience. But I mean, generally we have to say first of all, the Christian community in Israel is not large, it's less than 2%. So this is where the Jewish community is actually not outsiders. But I think over the years, and this has several reasons, but a little bit of the sort of Christmas spirit has been incorporated in Israel, particularly in Tel Aviv. You can find the odd shop that sells, actually not even odd, the shops that would sell Christmas trees and also Christmas decorations. We have heard of a few completely secular Israeli Jews who have a little tree in their house just to sort of maybe be part of the cosmopolit, the part of the rest of the world. Of course, Novigod, the Russian New Year adds to that sort of feeling and celebration. There are more than a million Russian immigrants in Israel. So that is part of what we're looking at. I also sort of carefully say that I think the more Israelis sort of perceive the real danger coming from Islamic countries. I think they feel, I don't know if at ease with Christianity or more at ease with Christianity, but definitely less dwelling on, you know, 2,000 years of anti Semitic Christianity and talking, you know, thinking about the dangers. So maybe that allows for it. There are obviously tourist tours to places that are areas in Israel that have this sort of mixed Christian and Jews living side by side, whether it be the Old City in Jerusalem or Jaffa or Haifa or of course Nazareth. So you have that kind of feeling as well when you're. You're on Christmas Day.
- [17:33]
A
Yeah, I think that was really interesting that that's true. The idea of there being tension between Judaism and Christianity feels somehow more retro. It's sort of, it's something that comes in, you know, Jackie Mason jokes and that kind of thing, it doesn't feel as current because it's true that in terms of where Jews currently feel there's the anxiety or that tension is between the Jewish world and the Muslim world. And that is where the antagonism is played out, particularly obviously in the Middle east. And, but, but it radiates outward. And if anything, especially when you have, you know, American conservatives and conservatives elsewhere constantly talking about the Judeo Christian ethos, et cetera, more or less merging them in, it does feel a bit retrospective to point out those differences that separate Jews and Christians somehow. I mean, it does. This relates to what you're saying. It does get kind of political, all of this. And I'm just thinking, yeah, we're having.
- [18:37]
B
Such a fun time. We were talking about trees and festivities.
- [18:40]
A
And you're the one who brought on global Jews. Geopolitics and the rift. Anything which seems to equate Palestinians with Jesus is tricky because there is this motif which has appeared at quite a few of the demonstrations around the world in which the Palestinians are, as it were, sort of crucified on various posters and placards equated to Jesus as if to say, and this is the problem with it, as if to say the Jews are doing it again, that the age old accusation of Jewish Jews as Christ killers is somehow updated as the idea that Jews are now tormenting Palestinians the way they tormented Jesus before. And this goes back to that really millennia old rift in which Christianity is at, you know, at war with Judaism because it blames Jews for the death of their, you know, as they see it, the Messiah. When that is all that iconography is transferred over onto the Palestinians. Lots of Jews get very nervous because it's an anti Semitic trope that's being revived, updated and relocated to the conflict with Palestinians.
- [19:54]
B
And also the argument over that Netflix movie called Mary and you know, obviously the most famous Jewish mother, she's portrayed by Israeli actress Noah Cohen. And there was also some controversy around that because some people said that Mary needs to be a Palestinian Arabic. Well, Mary was Jewish. This is part of history we can't change. And I think that it's okay to let an Israeli actress portray her, but I mean, that all adds up to what you're saying around, around this disagreement. Favorite Christmas film, Mr. Friedland.
- [20:30]
A
Oh, now Christmas films, here's where it's.
- [20:33]
B
Opening a whole pandemic.
- [20:34]
A
It's a whole, it's a whole big topic here because, well, it goes to my, the point I was going to journey from my Auntie Eddie saying Kratzmacht to where we are now, which is actually our family will gather. And I will be putting on the Sinatra Christmas CD with all, you know, let it snow and so on and how. And. And we do, at least to that extent, market. How has that changed where it was no part of my life. And the answer is the films. Because there is just something, you know, fantastic about. For example, I. Top of my list will be It's a Wonderful Life, the classic Frank Capra movie with James Stewart, which seems to me. I mean, it's just a wonderful film, but the exercise of that which the film posits, the idea, what would the world be like if you weren't in it? And, you know, the hero is presented with that. And it takes a long time getting there, but really stick with it. If you've never seen it, it's a masterpiece. And I think there is something wonderful about that as an exercise. And it slightly reminds me of Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah, where you sort of take stock and you think about the year you've had, but also the life you've had. And I think if you really do that, if you watch that film at Christmas time and do think about what the world would be, would it be. You know, I think it's. It would be. It's very affirming as an exercise, and it seems to be a very sort of proper spiritual contribution. I love the fact that in America they play it on pretty well, every channel in the lead up to Christmas, you could, you know, you're always just a couple of clicks away from seeing it. I think it's really the perfect Christmas movie myself.
- [22:06]
B
Yeah. It's interesting how dark it gets at points. It's not only a happy sort of Hallmark film, it has its very dark and even sort of dangerous moments until you pull back and say, okay, that actually it's a good thing that Jimmy Stewart existed. I'm gonna, you know, you know, this. We've had this arguments over the years over Die Hard as a Christmas. There's a whole, you know, discussion whether Die Hard is or isn't a Christmas film. And I know that you think it's a little too. Well, what did you call it when I forced you to see it? I don't remember, but it was like you were surprised by, you know, it's violence.
- [22:42]
A
I was surprised by your enthusiasm for it. I mean, to be honest, I thought you'd be more in the It's a Wonderful Life. Or Elf. If you haven't shown Elf to your kids yet, by the way, Elf they'll love. Okay, that's a recommendation. I think Elf is fantastic. But Die Hard, I was surprised.
- [23:01]
B
I know I like surprising you. And also I would. I mean, it's still a wonderful, wonderful action film. And the other thing I would recommend is this is because, you know, as you have children, you realize that Home Alone is a very good film, very good film for children. Yeah, of course, it is based on the ridiculous premise that anyone would leave their child at home for Christmas, even by mistake, even if you have eight children, this does not happen. But never mind, it's a good film.
- [23:27]
A
It works brilliantly. The. There was a debate, the perennial debate about whether Die Hards are Christmas. Christmas movie goes on. And I thought somebody said. I read somebody say this, which is the test is, does it lose anything if you show it another time of year? And I think with Die Hard, it doesn't. It could. The story works any time of year at all. Whereas all the other films we're talking about, the Christmas seasonal timing thing is, I think, integral to the film. It's a Wonderful Life, you couldn't really watch it any other time. It's. It's a. It's. It's for them. That would be. That would be my argument. Very happy to take representations to the contrary. Home Alone, of course, the precursor, the same plot as Skyfall, the James Bond film, which is an unlikely comparison. But once you've seen Home Alone and Skyfall, you can't unsee the link. But no, I think Christmas films are. They. They've sort of unlocked the period this season for me. Mary. Interesting as a film. I haven't seen it on Netflix. That's interesting because it's reintroducing, again, the religious kind of Jesus story, where I think I associate all that with the Easter films. That's a whole other sub genre. I love those films as well, by the way, that actually tell the Jesus story. I think Christmas films are different. They're not about Jesus and sort of nativity and Herod and all that. I think they are about the time of year and the kind of stuff that, you know.
- [24:50]
B
What do you love about the Easter films that tell the story of Jesus? I'm just curious about.
- [24:53]
A
Oh, I know. I mean, we'll do. Maybe we'll do a special at Easter time now. I have always really liked. This is my sort of guilty pleasure. I really like the Jesus story. I think it's just a great story and very dramatic and it's got tons of sort of intrigue and politics in it. And I remember always liking it. And I have seen many of those different Jesus films. It's is like a little thing of mine. I do like them. I never went to see the Passion of the Christ.
- [25:19]
B
No. The Mel Gibson. Well, we don't want to do films anymore. We had to, you know. We're not doing that. No, we're not doing that anymore.
- [25:25]
A
No. But the others. I do. I like the story. There we are.
- [25:30]
B
Okay, we're gonna have to have a whole different episode Easter special about this because now we're. Soon we're gonna venture into our. What is your favorite part of the New Testament? And I would say, obviously, obviously, person who loves fantasy has to love the revelation to John. But you, you probably have other parts of the New Testament that you prefer.
- [25:49]
A
I think you may be ahead of me on this one. And, and certainly we differ on fantasy as a genre. And that one will.
- [25:58]
B
We will agree on everything else. We will never agree on this. I get. No.
- [26:00]
A
Okay, we won't. I think we may be at the point where we have to lower the Christmas tree, dim the Christmas lights, put away all the wrapping paper because I think our gift episode maybe drawing to a close.
- [26:13]
B
That's right. And we'll say a Happy New Year to all of our listeners, whether they put up a Christmas tree or not. A big thank you to Michal Porat and we will meet here next week.