Podcast Episode Summary

Unholy: Two Jews on the News
Episode: Unholy Sukkah – with Kara Swisher
Date: September 24, 2021
Hosts: Yonit Levi (Channel 12 News, Tel Aviv) & Jonathan Freedland (The Guardian, London)
Guest: Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist, co-host of Pivot and Sway podcasts)

Episode Overview

This special Sukkot edition features the celebrated US tech journalist Kara Swisher. The hosts, Yonit Levi and Jonathan Freedland, invite Swisher into their “Unholy Sukkah” to explore what happens when technology, global business, and politics collide. They dig into the power—and dangers—of the tech giants, the elusive quest for accountability and regulation, the Israeli tech start-up ecosystem, diversity and the state of women in tech, and how journalists and citizens can best push back against Big Tech.

Festive Banter & Sukkah Talk

00:14–03:23

• Yonit and Jonathan swap stories about their (non-)building of Sukkot and the unique rituals (often noisy and inconvenient!) of their neighborhoods.
• “I can tell you, by the way, that I did not build my sukkah. If I had attempted to do that, it would probably look like a ridiculous diagram dinosaur that never survived.” – Yonit Levi (01:47)
• Lighthearted commentary on quarantining, the unending parental stress of COVID, and the Jewish tendency: “Don’t worry, but worry. It’s a Jewish podcast, you have to worry.” – Yonit Levi (03:14)
• Sukkot in the time of COVID: the tradition of cramming in guests feels at odds with pandemic reality.

Kara Swisher Joins the "Sukkah": Tech, Power & Responsibility

04:12–10:03

• Kara Swisher is introduced as “the most feared and also the most well liked journalist in Silicon Valley.” Swisher quips, “I’m not so sure I’m so well liked anymore. I think well liked has ended. That was several years ago.” (04:41)
• Her recent critiques of Big Tech, especially post-January 6th, have sparked new levels of resistance and engagement from tech companies and legislators worldwide.
• Swisher reflects on how tech journalism transitioned from a niche reporting beat to a front line of political, societal, and ethical debate:
  “When I first started, it was a small sidelight... But it’s now enveloped everything from commerce to communications to entertainment to healthcare to finance to everything.” (05:46)
• She discusses her approach to covering Big Tech:
  “I don’t consider these necessarily—some of them are not good people, bad people—but some of their products and the implications [are]. ...Pay attention to what you’ve made and the implications of what you’ve made.” (08:14)

Facebook, Regulation, and the Problem of Accountability

08:45–12:20

• Yonit asks why, even five years after the 2016 US election and countless Facebook apologies, accountability is still lacking. Swisher’s response:
  “There’s almost no regulation on technology companies or any of these companies [in the US]... There’s none. Maybe some minor data laws. But the laws that exist protect it—Section 230, First Amendment, things like that.” (09:10)
• Discussion of the “convenience trade” with tech—why users stick with platforms despite privacy risks:
  “That’s how the devil shows up, right? It doesn’t show up ugly, it shows up convenient.” – Kara Swisher (10:41)
  • “[Big tech] gets all the money, they get all the control, they get all the data, your data and they get to know everything about you... And you are okay with that trade. You’re all a bunch of cheap dates...” (11:14)
• Swisher calls for regulators—problematic though they may be—because elected officials can be removed, unlike unaccountable tech CEOs.

The Israel/Tech Nexus & Diversity in Start-Ups

12:23–16:46

• Israel as the “Startup Nation”:
  “What is the secret sauce that makes a place particularly hospitable for a successful tech industry?” – Jonathan Freedland (12:55)
  • Swisher: “Tolerance, willingness to criticize, willingness to change. A government that’s flexible... puts in research money.” (13:01)
• Swisher notes Israel’s distinctive feeder systems, especially the military/intelligence backbone for innovation.
• Remote work and COVID’s impact on traditional tech clusters; the future might not be physically tied to one “Silicon Valley.”
• Yonit spotlights gender inequity in Israeli unicorns (startups valued >$1bn): “There is one female founder of one company... That’s so depressing.” (14:54)
  • Swisher: “Yeah, the numbers are really down because, you know, men are smarter. I don’t know if you know that. Especially white men.” (Sarcastic, 14:54)
  • On board diversity: “On the board of Twitter, which has three Peters and a dick, there’s a problem with diversity… They only mention standards when it comes to women and people of color.” (15:01–16:00)

Bubbles, Money, and Societal Change

17:01–19:30

• Discuss the cycle of tech investment in Israel and the risk of a valuation bubble.
• “The world is awash in cash right now... Tech companies are triple in size in terms of valuation now. They didn’t do three times the innovation... There’s all this money and not a lot of places to go. And so it naturally goes to tech, which always seems to do well.” – Kara Swisher (17:58)

Can Governments Keep Up With Big Tech?

19:30–22:29

• Jonathan lays out the David & Goliath imbalance: “This fight to me seems so—biblically uneven, this fight.”
• Swisher argues: governments have more power than it seems (“I wouldn’t bet against any government, really, any relatively stable government”).
  • Biden administration moves: Lina Khan (FTC), Tim Wu (White House), John Kanter (Justice Department) as aggressive regulators.
  • Legal challenges—removing tech companies’ broad immunity (Section 230 reform) may be the only way forward:
    “One of the best ways to rein companies in... is legal lawsuits. Guess who can't be sued? Tech companies. Well, that might have to be rethought... Facebook has its CEO who is unfirable and unaccountable, who cannot be sued. What is that? I mean, come on.” (21:16)

Future Outlook: Is Change Possible?

22:29–26:19

• Will anything be different in four years? Swisher points to overwhelming resources and PR might, but suggests “the jig is up with the public.”
• Recent whistleblowing and damaging leaks (e.g., Instagram’s effect on teen girls’ self-image) have and will continue to shift attitudes internally and externally.
• “Guess who’s throwing all these documents over the wall? Employees of Facebook... This is not a good look for the company.” (23:45)
• On user risk and responsibility: “You have power to not use things. You have power to push for legislation... One is liability, two is taxation... And make them pay for the data they’re taking from you.” – Kara Swisher (24:14)
• Mental health, addiction, and the need for systemic change in tech usage.

Tech, Climate Change & Potential for Redemption

26:19–27:12

• Swisher draws a distinction between ego-trips (e.g., Bezos’s suborbital flight) and true innovation (Musk’s Mars ambitions, climate crisis solutions).
• “I really hope that tech will be used to sort of… help and mitigate the issues around climate change—because in the end, that’s all that matters, right? None of this is going to matter if we burn ourselves up.” – Kara Swisher (26:42–27:10)

Podcasting, Tolerance, and Consequence Culture

27:41–30:04

• On podcast “long-distance relationships” and “tolerance”:
  • “Tolerance, tolerance and understanding and a sense of humor. ...People get super pre-offended... I call it consequence culture. When you do something shitty, you should pay the price.” (28:02–29:08)
• The Internet amplifies rage, and resisting it is key: “It’s designed to make you upset. It’s designed to put you in a rage. And if you resist it, you have a much better relationship.” (29:12)

Should Kara Swisher Enter Politics?

30:04–32:03

• Jonathan probes whether Swisher will run for office, given her strong prescriptions for Big Tech.
  • “I have more power making connections for people and understanding and then… pushing back... I think I have a lot more impact by doing that.” – Kara Swisher (30:52)
  • On personal impact: “I have more impact having been married and having a lot of children and living our lives in a very proud and open way...” (31:34)

Closing Lighthearted Notes: Podcast Name & Israel

32:07–33:01

• Swisher inquires about the origin of the podcast title “Unholy.”
  • “Yonit is sitting in what is sometimes called the Holy Land. But we’re sort of irreverent on that.” – Jonathan Freedland (32:18)
  • “Unholy was a better choice.” – Kara Swisher (32:38)
  • Swisher expresses enthusiasm about returning to Israel and appreciation for its innovation and energy.

“Chutzpah and Mensch” Segment

33:08–39:14

• The hosts nominate their weekly “chutzpah” (audacity) and “mensch” (decency) picks, Sukkot-style:
  • Brett Goldstein (actor, Ted Lasso) gets “mensch” for his brief Emmy speech (33:26).
  • Scott Frank (director, The Queen’s Gambit) gets “chutzpah” for running over time in his Emmy acceptance (34:47).
  • Savannah Guthrie (NBC) gets “mensch” for deftly coaxing Boris Johnson to admit his number of children. Boris gets the “chutzpah” for his “colourful” responses (35:54–37:22).
  • A special mention: the eerie way Jonathan’s Trump-era thriller prefigured revelations in Bob Woodward’s book Peril (38:03).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The convenience trade-off:
  “That’s how the devil shows up, right? It doesn’t show up ugly, it shows up convenient.” – Kara Swisher (10:41)
• On meritocracy and privilege:
  “They think it’s a meritocracy and it’s a meritocracy. They see what they see and then they feel comfortable with that.” – Kara Swisher (15:03)
• Diversity on Twitter’s board:
  “Which has three Peters and a dick, there’s a problem with diversity.” – Kara Swisher (16:00)
• Solution for tech accountability:
  “Guess who can’t be sued? Tech companies. Well, that might have to be rethought in a significant way.” – Kara Swisher (21:16)
• On ‘consequence culture’:
  “When you do something shitty, you should pay the price. Sorry, that’s the way it is.” – Kara Swisher (28:38)
• On climate/crisis innovation:
  “None of this is going to matter if we burn ourselves up.” – Kara Swisher (26:56)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:12 – Kara Swisher joins, discusses her role and changing landscape of tech journalism
• 08:45 – Endless Facebook apologies & lack of US tech regulation
• 13:01 – What makes Israel/The Startup Nation successful in tech
• 14:54 – Gender equity problems in Israeli unicorns
• 17:58 – Is there a tech bubble? Impact of excess investment
• 21:16 – Legal immunity and how to realistically rein in Big Tech
• 23:45 – Whistleblowers and public opinion turning against Facebook
• 24:54 – The trade-off of convenience and tech addiction
• 26:42 – Can tech solve climate change? Real innovation vs. ego trips
• 28:02 – Lessons on co-hosting, cancel/consequence culture
• 30:52 – On leveraging influence as a journalist instead of a politician
• 32:07 – The backstory to the podcast’s name
• 33:08 – Chutzpah & Mensch Sukkot selections

Tone & Style

• The conversation is witty, irreverent, insightful, and sometimes biting.
• Swisher’s direct, sardonic style complements the hosts’ mix of Jewish humor and media sophistication.
• Memorable for its blend of light Sukkot festivity with weighty discussion on tech and society.

Recommended for listeners interested in:

• Contemporary tech regulation debates
• The intersection of politics, society, and technology
• Israeli innovation and its global context
• Diversity (or lack thereof) in tech
• Sharp, intelligent, and often hilarious conversation

For follow-up or contact:
unholy@unholy-media.com