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- [00:14]
A
Hello, I'm Yanit levy of Channel 12 in Tel Aviv.
- [00:17]
B
And I'm Jonathan Friedland of the Guardian in London.
- [00:21]
A
And we are unholy two Jews on the news from Keshe podcasts. Hi, Jonathan.
- [00:26]
B
Chag Same. Oh, it's not quite Chag Samer. Happy Sukkot to you. Your need. How are you doing?
- [00:32]
A
Fine. I was wondering, in my endless futile quest to find embarrassing pictures of you, any chance there's a sukkah building debacle that has been recorded for the ages?
- [00:44]
B
Not this year. In previous years, you definitely would have struck gold with some of those images. And I'm afraid to confess to you that we didn't build a sukkah this year and we sort of got out of the habit a few years back and certainly in the pandemic period, it hasn't happened. So I apologize. You could have pictures of me getting increasingly infuriated with my neighbours as they build their Sukkot. And for some reason they've decided that the time, the hour for construction work is midnight to 1am that is optimal time. I'm sure there's a halachic reason for it. For my ultra Orthodox neighbors begin to get the drills and the saws out in the early hours of the morning. And this has now become a kind of additional festive custom that they honor with great diligence every year. Drilling, screw guns, hucking and banging, as my grandparents would have put it, happens every year. So you could have had. You could have a picture of that.
- [01:47]
A
Good. Finally something to go on. I can tell you, by the way, that I did not build my sukkah. If I had attempted to do that, it would probably look like a ridiculous diagram dinosaur that never survived. So I did pay good money for someone to do it for me. But I did. Is that Halja approved? I hope it is.
- [02:06]
B
But no, that's fine. In fact, the neighbors actually do hire people to do it. So that's.
- [02:10]
A
That explains the midnight.
- [02:11]
B
I guess that explains the midnight. Because they were so overrun with customers this year that the only way they could do it is they booked in like the night shift. Otherwise I wouldn't be. You know, even though I think the chances of them listening to Unholy are minimal, I wouldn't be risking that because I'm not talking bad mouthing them. It's the people who are doing the work. But that's interesting that you do that. So is there a channel 12 sukkah?
- [02:34]
A
There is a channel 12 sukkah. And this week that I spent in Quarantine with my children made me think of how great Sukkot can be. You can just run away to your sukkah and sit there for a while. But, you know, I mean, I think we should say that what you're supposed to do is cram as many guests in Asuka as possible. That's not very Covid friendly, but that is the, the thing to do. Definitely.
- [03:00]
B
Hang on. People are going to be worried, though, that you're quarantining. Everyone's okay.
- [03:03]
A
Everyone's okay. Everyone's okay. Yeah, I should have, I should have led with that. Everyone's okay.
- [03:08]
B
But yes, in a Jewish podcast, you have to say at the beginning, right? You have to say, don't worry, but this has happened.
- [03:15]
A
Don't worry, but worry. It's a Jewish podcast. You have to worry.
- [03:17]
B
Well, there's the Jewish. There's the. My favorite one is the Jewish Telegram, of course, which is. Start worrying details later.
- [03:23]
A
Exactly. But you have to say that in the situation we are in this country, Covid related, and the fact that schools are completely open and you have right now about 150,000 quarantined students out of about a million, you feel like it's kind of a Russian roulette that you send three children out and you know that at some point or another you're going to have to be quarantined. So that, that's what. What it looks like right now.
- [03:48]
B
No, I mean, it's. It's getting slightly alarming. We're all in a bit of denial about that here too, I think, but we will. We'll have to come on to that in, in a future week, because this is our festive.
- [04:01]
A
Exactly. I was gonna say we're. This is us in a festive mood. It's very important.
- [04:04]
B
This is our Sukkot. We have to be festive and cheery. And we are helped in that effort because we have a very cool and very special guest indeed.
- [04:13]
A
And we have, as you say, a special guest in our podcast, Suka Today.
- [04:18]
B
So we say a big hello to Kara Swisher, who is a very cool and very special guest and was described by New York magazine as the most feared and also the most well liked journalist in Silicon Valley. I would say, Cara, that you are basically the. The number one and most influential tech journalist in the world. But to pull off most feared and most well liked, that's quite a trick.
- [04:41]
C
I'm not so sure I'm so well liked anymore. I think well liked has ended. That was several years ago.
- [04:46]
A
It's A profile piece from 2015.
- [04:48]
C
Yeah. I think they're not so happy because a lot of the stuff I've been criticizing tech for has now come to pass, including the January 6 event, which is not at all to blame by tech, but tech helped facilitate it. And I spent a lot of time talking to legislators or at legislators and others about the implications of these inventions, and I think they've been listening suddenly in the last couple of years.
- [05:13]
B
Okay, well, that's interesting. I was going to say to listeners that you and I go back quite a long while ago. We were both reporters, me very briefly, at the Washington post in the 1990s, in the kind of Jurassic era, before there was all this tech stuff. What's really interesting to me is that tech was kind of tech as a distinct field. But probably when you started, and I was thinking about your podcast the Pivot, and how that over time has become more and more political, more intertwined with politics, and that's because tech itself has kind of changed in some way.
- [05:47]
C
Yeah, we end up talking a lot about politics, whether it's the FTC or Marguerite Vestiger there in Europe or anywhere else. So it tends to. Right now, a lot of what's happening has to do with politics because of the power of the tech companies, whether it's something like Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, whether it's hacking, there's gotta be legislative interest in a lot of these areas, cars, healthcare, and things like that. So tech has overtaken everything in the world, essentially. And when I first started, it was a small sidelight. These were not rich people. This was not big companies. And mostly tech people thought of was chips, you know, chips and. And things like that. But it's now enveloped everything from commerce to communications to entertainment to healthcare to finance to everything.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah, it seems like to the outside observer that one of your strong points has always been not fawning over these companies and their success and the money, but rather observing it with a really healthy dose of skepticism and really examining the power structures and the social responsibility or lack thereof. And I wonder how hard is that to do over these years? And is there any company that you look at and say they're actually getting high marks in the. In the social responsibility category?
- [07:07]
C
Well, some of them. It depends on the company. Right. So I think all of them. I don't. First of all, I don't think one of the things that's interesting, there's just been a recent series called the Facebook Files in. In the Journal, and one of the responses from Nick Clegg, who's from Britain, who I think, I'm sure Jonathan knows, has been. Has been. We're not bad people. How dare you call us bad people? No one's saying they are. That wasn't what they were saying. It's. Their products are dangerous and need regulation. Their products are problematic in all kinds of ways. And that's what the sweep of the journal articles sort of is, on the shoulders of reporting that had happened previously with more documents. And so I think one of the things that I try to do is I don't consider these necessarily, not some of them, some of them are not good people, bad people, but some of their products and the implications. And so I don't think it's hard at all. It's. It's like, what are the consequences of what you made? And I think that's where I focus in on. And they don't feel very comfortable because they have to bring it back to the personal, as if they're in some, you know, movie about a chemical company that's poisoning children. Well, they're poisoning someone, but it's not. And then maybe they didn't understand the implications of or the consequences. And that's where I like to focus, is pay attention to what you've made and the implications of what you've made. And the problem with these people is that they started off very young and very celebrated. They get licked up and down all day. They're extraordinarily wealthy, and therefore they think everything they do is correct without understanding the responsibility they also hold for the immense power they have in the world.
- [08:46]
B
You wrote your piece recently about the endless Facebook apology, as if this has gone on and on and on. And that interests me because in 2016, it all did explode about their involvement in the US election and what they've done in terms of Donald Trump and the idea that five years later you're still having to write to say these companies are potentially their products are dangerous, etc. Five years has passed. Why has this not been addressed, solved, dealt with?
- [09:11]
C
Well, because the regulators in the US at least, you know, you've had more luck in Europe and elsewhere in the world. But in the US there's almost no regulation on technology companies or any of these companies. Now they're starting to step in, in cryptocurrency, which is a relatively new area which does need regulation, obviously, although the people who run cryptocurrency don't think so. But too bad, you know, or cars. That's something people feel comfort, governments feel Comfortable moving in on and actually throttling back. In many ways, the tech companies have had none. None. Like people are like, we shouldn't have regulation against tech. I said, we don't have any. There's none. There's none. There's not. There's maybe some minor data laws. There's. But what the laws that exist protect it, Section 230, First Amendment, things like that, they're very well protected by laws. They're not hindered by them in any way.
- [10:03]
A
So again, it begs the question. I mean even lay people like, right, I mean, I'm not tech savvy. I understand that there's a line between Russian propaganda 2016 and, and anti vaxxers 2021. And you ask yourself, why has this not been regulated? And you had a very interesting conversation on Sway on your podcast. You spoke with Dave Edgar and he said something about, you know, no one's going to come for Amazon because at the end of the day people like low prices. So maybe that's true. Also to Facebook you say, you know, I know that my data is, is, you know, probably in jeopardy and my privacy, but it's so convenient that I don't understand the problem.
- [10:41]
C
Well, that's how you know, the devil shows up, right? It doesn't show up ugly, it shows up convenient. It's like, wow, I can get a, you know, I get mayonnaise to your home with you just thinking about it, I want a sandwich. Oh, it's there. You know, a lot of people feel, for example, if Amazon had handed, had handled the, the vaccine rollout, we would have, everybody would have been vaccinated. They're incredibly efficient, they do a great job, great customer service, they're rich, they go to space. You know, like, they're so successful. And so I think people have a hard time doing anything because it's all free, you know, it's all free, it's all easy. And what I always say to them is, you know, what, what do you get in your trade with these companies? You get free maps, you get your stuff delivered really quickly. You get, I don't know, a calendar, you get dating and they get everything else. They get all the money, they get all the control, they get all the data, your data and they get to know everything about you. Non government agencies, Nobody's comfortable with government agencies knowing all this stuff about you. These are private companies that know everything about you. Information you give up willingly and not so willingly. And you are okay with that trade. You're all a bunch of cheap dates you know, here's some flowers. Now I'm gonna fuck with you. Like that's how I look at it. Like, like, I don't know, I want more from them and I want regulators. However problematic regulators are, they're elected. You know, you can like or not, like Benjamin Netanyahu or Boris Johnson or Donald Trump, but they were elected and.
- [12:14]
B
You can get rid of them. Two out of the three. Tempted to say two down, one to go, but I'll avoid that.
- [12:21]
C
But just tell because I think Bojo's with you for a while.
- [12:24]
B
I think so too, actually. Actually we are the focus of this podcast is Israel the wider Jewish world and things. But there's, there's a, quite a fit there because Israel has, you know, prides itself on being this startup nation. Tech, High tech is a big part of it. I mean, do you have, is there a kind of secret sauce in what makes a place. You know, you're in Silicon Valley. I think we're talking to Silicon Valley now. There is Silicon, you know, Fen in Cambridge in England, you know, Silicon Glen in Scotland. There's all these areas, the ones that actually work. What is the secret sauce that makes a place particularly susceptible or conducive, hospitable for a successful tech industry?
- [13:02]
C
Well, you know, there's a lot of books written about this. What creates an innovative society and what ends an innovative society. Right. And so that's interesting. There's been millions of these over history and it doesn't necessarily have to be technology. They all share the same thing. Tolerance, willingness to criticize, willingness to change. A government that's flexible, absolutely no question, and helps them, puts in research money and things like that. What ends them are, you know, wealth, expensive, closed mindedness, that places run out of ideas and people move along. I don't, you know, Israel is really interesting because obviously a lot of the tech comes out of the military there and military intelligence.
- [13:48]
A
Military, yeah, and cyber security.
- [13:50]
C
But you know, I think it's just, I think there is an element of physicality to an analog location based on something like Hollywood. But now it's changed. That's changed rather dramatically in the pandemic. So it'll be interesting to see what happens now that most of these tech companies are going almost fully remote. I mean, I don't, I don't. Although Google just bought up a giant building in New York. But I think that it'll be interesting to see what happens if there is going to be a place or if we're going to be able to find talent across the world, you know, or be able to innovate post pandemic.
- [14:23]
A
You know, the interesting. Obviously the term Israelis use this past year is unicorns. These companies that. The startup companies with the value of over 1 billion. Israel had 37 of those in 2020, which is really a staggering number when you think of how small a country we are. I went through the list of just the recent ones, and the amazing thing is there is one female founder of one company. I was wondering how, you know, how that. I don't know what the view from Silicon Valley is, but obviously I'm sure there are more the same. That's so depressing.
- [14:54]
C
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The numbers are really down because, you know, men are smarter. I don't know if you know that. Especially white men. They're better than everybody else. Sorry, John.
- [15:01]
A
Sorry.
- [15:03]
C
You know, it's because they get funded in that level. They get encouraged. There's a lot of, you know, if someone breaks up, goes. Goes to a company and opens another, they bring along their friends. It's. I always. The thing I say from the beginning, and it's been a long time thing is they think it's a meritocracy and it's a meritocracy. They see what they see and then they feel comfortable with that. You can see it everywhere, you know, on boards of companies. There's no way that, you know, years ago I wrote a lead about Twitter, which at the time was knocking itself into a wall on a regular basis, like running itself directly into a wall. And they had 10 white men of the same exact age type everything else on the board. And I always thought that was a problem because I think diversity brings a lot of interesting innovation and there's lots of studies about this. I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to virtue signal you. It's just very clear that, that that's the case. And I wrote a lead that I think I should have retired right after I said on the board of Twitter, which has three Peters and a dick, there's a problem with diversity. And it was. And they laughed about it and then started called me back and said, you know, we have standards. And I said, well, what? Where were the standards when you had this shitty board that was doing all these stupid things? Like, you only mention standards when it comes to women and people of color. So I don't think it does a service to these companies to be like this, but it just is. This is what it is and it isn't. Because, you know, if you said it, it's Just a group of people are not just good at something and nobody else is. It's the lack of opportunity, it's the lack of access to capital and it's the lack of belief by the powers that be in allowing people to experiment with all kinds of things.
- [16:47]
B
In terms of the access to capital thing, the Israeli startups that Yonit was referring to do well out of that. And partly it's Americans who invest in them. Do you have a sense of what it is that might make an American investor think? Yeah, I'll bet on that. Israeli startup.
- [17:01]
C
Well, it's a history, a long history. Right. Everyone pattern matches and they've had very big presence and knowledge in Israel. A lot of Israeli entrepreneurs have come to Silicon Valley. It's a very tight, it's a very tight circle. So I think it makes perfect sense. I mean, you have some very prominent is Israeli investors, but most of the American investors understand there are certain areas where there's, it's fertile to come there and try to find entrepreneurs. Obviously there's so much money right now that it's really quite easy to get investments. And so, and there's, obviously the valuations are going up again.
- [17:38]
A
So if there's so much money poured into the system in this country, really just, just huge amounts, what does it do? How sustainable is it? Are we looking at a bubble? I mean, just in Israel, the fact that there are thousands of, you know, newly rich techies around changes society. But is it. Obviously a lot of these companies are overvalued.
- [17:58]
C
This isn't fresh and new for Israel. This has happened over and over again. You know, think about, if you look around the world, where do you put your money? Right? I mean, I think there's, there's. The world is awash in cash right now, especially the tech companies are triple in size in terms of valuation now. They didn't do three times the innovation over the past year. Trust me, they got an open market that they were able to take advantage of. There were people at home and then who suffered. Retail, commerce in person, commerce, office buildings. I mean, look what's happening in China right now with this controversial company, this real estate company, I think it's Everglade or whatever it's called. In any case, there's all this money and a lot of, and not a lot of places to go. And so it naturally goes to tech, which always seems to do well. And there's, there's some very clear trends headed towards us that have been proven by the pandemic that everything is going to be digitized and to invest in it makes sense. And there's big areas like transportation, healthcare, entertainment especially, which has had the world's biggest experiment because of the pandemic. Now people have moved that way and now companies are thinking whether they should be hybrid at the very least. But remote, possibly. Commerce has moved. Amazon has rushed into the breach as other online retailers, streaming companies now dominate. Movie theaters are struggling. So why not put the money there? It makes sense when I hear you.
- [19:30]
B
Say all that and it's obviously all kinds things of correct. I just don't know how in a battle of accountability where you have this digital colossus, many headed with huge resources and wealth and all the trends in terms of post pandemic going in their direction, how the puny little politicians, and I would even include the President of the United States in this, can even hope to keep up with them. Especially because if they do move, I mean you mentioned the British case, you know, where the Amazon pay almost nothing in tax. They just say okay, we'll go somewhere else. And how this fight to me seems so, it seems biblically uneven, this fight.
- [20:06]
C
Well, you know we did have big oil here, we had big, big telcos, we had big train companies. You know, this is not something new and fresh to the United States is these companies taking over things. And the US government still is very powerful. Let me just say I wouldn't bet against any government really any relatively stable government. I use that in quotes. Relatively stable for the United States. But you know, President Biden has put in place some very strong anti tech regulators. I would say, I wouldn't say anti tech tech critical regulators. Lina Khan at the ftc, John Kantor is now under at the Justice Department. In antitrust you have Tim Wu at the White House and you have a president very much interested and a bunch of legislators by the way on both sides for very different reasons. Obviously the right wing thinks they're being censored when they never shut up for a minute, which is always my favorite thing. I'm always like Josh, Ollie, you never shut up. Marjorie Taylor Greene, we wish you would shut up. We wish someone would stop you talking. But she doesn't, you know, which is, you know, a strength of our country. Whatever. I find her abhorrent but nonetheless she does get to talk. And I think you'll see some non partisan legislation around privacy, around data, the reform of section 230. I mean I think one of the biggest problems is, you know, every other industry gets reined in in several different ways. One is by Taxation, another, which is a great way to sort of slow people down. Another is by regulation. But one of the best ways to rein companies in, and I hate to say this is. Is legal lawsuits. People can be sued. Sue the bastard kind of thing. And medical device people can be sued. Financial companies can be sued. Real estate companies can be sued. Guess who can't be sued? Tech companies. Well, that might have to be rethought in a significant way. Not completely not getting rid of section 230, but right now they have broad immunity. And so Facebook has its CEO who is unfirable and unaccountable, who cannot be sued. What is that? I mean, come on, like, come on, like at some point there has to be criminal implications. There has to be civil implications for some of this behavior, and there isn't any.
- [22:30]
A
So if we have this conversation in four years, will it be a different one? Or will we still be asking the question, why is there no regulation?
- [22:38]
C
I think it's difficult. Facebook has more PR people. You know, FTC was just hiring, I don't know, 200 lawyers. I was like, try 2,500. You need. Facebook has more PR people. I think there's seven PR people covering me right now. Right? I don't know. No, there's not. I'm teasing.
- [22:56]
B
I was so ready to believe that. I was completely ready to believe that.
- [23:00]
A
What do you mean?
- [23:01]
C
They don't talk to me at all, which is. It doesn't matter. I don't care. I still shoot from my little, little area. I think they have hundreds. They have more PR people than the FTC has staff and the Justice Department. They can't, you know, and all of them do, by the way. And they have enormous money, lobbyists and things like that. That said, I think the jig is up on with the public. I think people. The trends are showing just like a lot of things, the damage that has been done. I think this recent bunch of, I think people inside these companies right now. Guess who's throwing all these documents over the wall? Employees of Facebook. That's what's happened here. This teen girls thing, this is not a good look for a company. It's just not.
- [23:45]
B
This is the effect of Instagram on the self image of younger.
- [23:49]
C
Well, of course we knew that. And it's been, you know, I don't know what I would do if I was Facebook, but I would think hard about what they're doing. And I think people inside there are thinking hard.
- [23:58]
B
But if the jig is up in terms of even the public now realizing These things are dangerous. But goes back to the Dave Eggers point, it's just too convenient to give up. What leverage, what sort of power in that arrangement does the, does the user have? Because in the end they don't walk away. They're not going to go on Twitter or Facebook.
- [24:15]
C
They have to use these products. There's no way you can do your job today without using these products. You don't have to use Twitter, Jonathan. You don't. Sorry. I think you love it, right? I feel that you love it. It's addictive. I think looking into the addictive nature of these things is important. You have power to not use things. You have power to push for legislation. I think there's two areas that I think. One is liability, two is taxation. Sorry. Three and three is privacy laws. And make them pay for the data they're taking from you. Make them pay. And then see their businesses aren't quite as profitable once they have to pay for the damage they do.
- [24:55]
B
You think we should get off these platforms in terms of our own mental.
- [24:58]
C
Health a little bit more? I think they should make it possible. I think it's interesting Apple just said it was going to use the devices to help study cognition and depression. Oh my God. The devices that make us depressed are going to help us not be depressed. Okay, got it. Check. And I think Apple's probably the best among them, right? Among all these companies in terms of that. But the fact of the matter is they feed off of our data, they feed off of our movements, they feed off of our consumption and they have to be made to pay for that in a way that's significant. It's happened to opiate companies. That said, what's interesting is tech entrepreneurs and money, people of money are the ones paying for all this research into psychotropic drugs which actually look like a solution to opiate addiction, which is kind of good. And like thank you for the LSD everybody, whatever they happen to come up with. But I think eventually the government will reign these companies in. I think they've been lax about it. And some of the stuff they're doing I think is really interesting. The space travel, some people think it's overhyped. I think it's important. I'm ignoring Jeff Bezos ridiculous roller coaster ride to the edge of the atmosphere. But I think some of the stuff Elon Musk is doing is interesting and important.
- [26:20]
B
Oh, not just ego trip. Something important. What's the important bit?
- [26:23]
C
Oh, Elon Musk, the stuff with space. How to. How to these rockets. It's very important. He's not, you didn't know if you noticed, he did not go up in a rocket ship. You know, he doesn't need to do that. He's more interested in going to Mars and never coming back. But some of the stuff around, you know, the car stuff is interesting. Some of the stuff around climate change. I really hope that tech will be used to sort of, you know, help and mitigate the issues around climate change because in the end, that's all that matters, right? None of this is going to matter if we burn ourselves up, right? So I think it'll be interesting to see who among these technologists or who emerges across the world to come up with innovative solutions to climate change, which is of course course, the existential crisis of our.
- [27:10]
A
So that that can be the redemption.
- [27:13]
C
Or someone else. Or someone else. I think they're wasting their time sticking with each other. One of the things I always think about is there's a kid in, I don't know, Somalia or a girl who has a cure for cancer in her head, right? It's always. It isn't just going to be born by computers, it's born by human innovation. And the fact that they don't let this talent emerge or they just, they hinder it is ridiculous. It's such a disservice to humanity.
- [27:42]
A
We can't let you go without asking you since, you know, we talked about Sway. But we also are big fans of Pivot. And you know, you co host with Scott, Professor Scott Galloway, who is half Jewish, and I co host with Jonathan Friedland who is fully Jewish. And I have to have your tips on a pod distance relationship.
- [28:03]
C
Oh, pod distance relationship. You know what toleration I say every day? Scott says he just this morning, like I announced I was having another baby. And Scott, of course immediately claimed paternity and was highly offensive with a series of extraordinarily rude comments about lesbians and sperm and et cetera. And I just, you know what? People get super pre offended. My wife, who is Jewish, says she's coined the term pre offended. Where people now, today, everybody gets sort of up in arms. And I don't say this is about cancel culture because I think those people who do all the hot take hacks on cancel culture are ridiculous. Some people should have. I call it consequence culture. When you do something shitty, you should pay the price. Sorry, that's the way it is. And I don't think people are hindered from talking. I think that's overblown and used as a, as a Way to make money for themselves. In any case, I'm tolerant of when he wants to say something that's maybe a little bit problematic. I think tolerance, tolerance and understanding and a sense of humor. Right.
- [29:09]
B
I think those are my middle names, Yonit. I mean the tolerance I have to.
- [29:13]
C
Extend, you have to be like, oh, you're kidding me. And liking the. And being able to tolerate dissent and disagreement. I think that that of course has changed rather significantly because of the Internet. Everyone is instantly angry about or in the rage. But guess what? It's designed to make you upset. It's designed to put you in a rage. And if you resist it, you have a much better relationship. And I don't mean anti vaxxers because they can go fuck themselves. You know, they can really truly go fuck themselves. But, but I think it's more tolerant of people's different opinions and willingness to listen to them if they're reasonable. If they're not fact based and dangerous, no, you can slap them until next, you know, Sunday. But I think that's, that's what I was got humor and tolerance. I would say.
- [30:05]
B
I wanted to ask one last thing before we let you go. I know we've said that was the last one, but just because you're so fluent on, on what needs to be done. This is a question I often ask of fellow journalists who are very good at diagnosing the problems. At what point do you feel like you want to get it out from, from behind the, you know, commentary box and onto the pitch really?
- [30:26]
C
And is that I've created lots of companies, Jonathan. I left, I left the company, I left the Journal to start on my own thing. We just happened to sell it. So we've been doing this sort of everyone's like, ah, substack is so entrepreneurial. We were doing it 20 years ago. Walt and I left and did our own conferences. We did our own. I started podcast six years, seven years ago because I thought it was innovative.
- [30:47]
B
No, what I had in mind was whether this talk about regulation, whether you would seek political office is what I was wondering.
- [30:52]
C
Oh my God. I think Facebook would lose its ever loving mind. No, I think I have, I have. I thought about running for office, but I think I'm more effective here. I think I have a better, a better place. I spent a lot of time talking to Amy Klobuchar and Mark Warner and I've interviewed, you know, Lena Khan and Tim Wu and so I think I have more power making connections for people and understanding and then not pushing back like I think I did more good when Nick Clegg released his ridiculous latest. It wasn't even. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what it was. It was a lot of words typed. That's all I could think of what it was. I think I have a lot more impact by doing that. I just do. I just think it's like impact like having families or being gay. I think about that a lot. I have more impact having been married and having a lot of children and living our lives in a very proud and open way. And you know, I think at this point, I was joking with Scott. Only. Only lesbians and evangelicals are having this many children, except ours are vaccinated. And that's how you do it, you know, you just live every day. And so I think I probably have more impact doing that.
- [32:03]
B
Thank you, Kara Swisher, for being in the Unholy Sukkah. We've loved it. Thank you very much.
- [32:07]
C
I love Unholy work. Can I ask you a question? Sure. Why did you call it Unh. Unholy? I mean, I know that series on Netflix. I love Netflix, by the way. There's a company, I think we.
- [32:16]
B
We were there before they were actually the series.
- [32:18]
C
Oh, were you okay.
- [32:19]
B
On Netflix. But the. We called it that because Yonit is sitting in what is sometimes called the. The Holy Land. But we're a sort of irreverent on that, I think.
- [32:28]
C
Well, I like that.
- [32:29]
B
What's your answer to the.
- [32:30]
A
Well, I. The answer, the honest answer is I wanted to call it Two Jews on the News, but Jonathan won with his. With his title Two Jews on the News.
- [32:39]
C
Well, but Unholy was a better choice.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah. O. We thought so too, eventually.
- [32:44]
C
Yeah. It's a great name. I really like it. It's a great name. I hope to get to Israel soon. I love Israel. I love coming there and I really enjoy talking to all the entrepreneurs there. And London not as entrepreneurial.
- [32:57]
B
No, very much not. Will, we would love to have you on again. Thank you so much, Kara.
- [33:01]
C
Anytime. Thank. You.
- [33:08]
A
So that was a very interesting conversation.
- [33:12]
B
She knows everything about tech world and the world.
- [33:15]
A
I would say indeed we want to go to our traditional chutzpah and mensch. Maybe in the spirit of Sukkot. It's the people we will let in our sukkah and the people who will stay outside.
- [33:26]
B
I like that. So who gets on the Unholy guest list and who outside the velvet rope? I think that's quite cool. Okay, well, I'm going to link mine actually. Actually, because I think there was a nice little moment at the Emmys where there was, I think, simultaneously a little act of chutzpah and a little act of mensch. And that is that especially if you're the organizers of the Emmys, you'd be delighted that one Jewish actor, Brett Goldstein, who's a big actor in the hit comedy Ted Lasso, he won best supporting actor. He delivered a very, very short and brief and to the point speech, which included him swearing, which is in the spirit of his character. So he gets a. He gets a mention war. Because the one thing you like if you're in the audience and also if you're organizing any kind of event, is the short speech. But simultaneously, at the very same event at the Emmys, a very long speech came from the director of the Queen's Gambit show, which I absolutely loved, by the way, the director, Scott Frank, who brought down the wrath of the TV gods on him because he ignored repeated signals to just end already and wrap it up. I think they struck up the music three times, but instead, he just never.
- [34:48]
A
Want them to strike up the music three times.
- [34:50]
B
You never want that to happen. So he gets a little bit of a chutzpah for stretching the patience of the Emmy producers and perhaps even the TV audience.
- [35:00]
A
That reminds me of my editor in the earpiece while I anchor the news you always get when you want. He wants me to finish up what I wrap up what I'm saying toda. Toda. And the third one is screaming toda. So that is what the three times music thing was. Anyway, I'm going to link my mention chutzpah as well, because it's an interviewer and an interviewee, and I think one of them, at least, the interviewer Savannah Guthrie, gets the Mensch award, and the interviewee gets. That is your Prime Minister, Boris Johnson. I think he gets the chutzpah award. What happened in this interview was very interesting because she actually got him to admit to the number of children he has, which is sort of something that, if I'm not mistaken, eluded the British press for a very long time. And she kind of did it very elegantly. She said, well, you have six kids. And he says yes, which made a lot of headlines in the UK as well.
- [35:54]
B
Yeah, it's an amazing thing to admit, but we have not known for certain the. The actual number for quite a long time because he has had a very colourful marital and extramarital life, and it has been quite tricky to keep up with his.
- [36:12]
A
I love. I love the word colorful that you're using as an understatement there, John.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah, that's a little bit of British understatement. He has had a aerobic, romantic life and. And colorful. So, yeah, it's been hard to keep up. And Savannah Guthrie. Absolutely. And what was beautiful about it was it wasn't clear to me whether this was a really clever slash detail bit of interviewing or whether she just in a really kind of open faced, quite genuine way just sort of said, right, you know, how many. Do you remind me how many you have or what have. She said, you have six.
- [36:45]
C
Right.
- [36:45]
B
And he went, yes, I think thing, you know, so it's. Was it just naivety or was it. Were you on the tv?
- [36:50]
A
I think she was that naivety or a ploy? I think it was. It was completely deliberate. I have to say that when he says he changes a lot of nappies or diapers. Didn't believe that part so much. But second only to favorite Savannah Guthrie clip of all time. I'm sure you remember this when she interviewed President Trump before the elections and she asked him about a piece of, I don't know, disinformation he was tweeting about and he tried to explain why he was doing it and then she just said, but you're not somebody's crazy uncle, you're the president. Which I think is her best line. They're not mutually exclusive, by the way.
- [37:23]
B
No, that's the problem. America's craziest uncle did become its president. No, that's great. She's had two very good TV moments. So she is ushered in to the unholy sukkah and given a seat at the table. A pride of place for that bit of TV interviewing.
- [37:40]
A
Indeed.
- [37:40]
B
Outside the producer of Queen's Gambit. And the Prime Minister can shiver in the autumnal cold because they are on the outside.
- [37:48]
A
It's Israel, Jonathan. It's not autumnal cold. It's very, very warm. Just saying. Good weather. Still good weather. I hope you're jealous if we're doing. I remember when we did mention, besides that kind of gray area between chutzpah and mench that we just want to mention something. Can I do that this week?
- [38:04]
B
You can't go. He's all mentioned.
- [38:05]
A
Remember last week we were on the topic of book. So the book Peril came out. It's about Trump's final days in office. Legendary journalist Bob Woodward wrote it with veteran Washington reporter columnist Robert Kosta. And it claims, among other things, that General Mark Milley, the chairman of the joint Chiefs of staff was very concerned that Trump might go rogue after the January 6 attack on the Capitol and took secret action to protect nuke nuclear weapons. He basically summoned his senior officers to say, if you get the call, you have to involve me. Now, this is very, I would say, eerily similar to my friend Sam Bourne's book, AKA Jonathan Friedland, who wrote a book four years ago called To Kill the President. And the very first chapter begins, if I'm not mistaken. I read this a while back, but with the Chief of Staff and the Secretary of Defense trying to block the President from launching a nuclear attack on North Korea. So you knew before. People need to read your books to know what will happen in the Bob Woodward books in years to come.
- [39:14]
B
I love that. No, it begins with fiction from Sanborn and ends with the Real Life account by Bob Woodward. I'm very happy with that contractual arrangement. I mean, it was. It did actually almost have a. Give me a little of tingle when I saw this story, because it is a little bit uncanny. That was absolutely the opening episode of that book that was based on a, you know, unnamed president who did have some crazy uncle attributes and was uncannily like the crazy uncle. But I wrote it before I finished that draft and submitted to the publisher before Donald Trump took his oath of office. I had to write that at absolutely breakneck speed to meet the deadline. And so I wrote it, started writing more or less as the results came in in November 2016, and handed it in something like January 19th or something of 2017. So I had no idea of what kind of president he would be. I just. All I had was what kind of person he was to go on. And so my hypothetical was, what if he's so crazy that the people around him have to absolutely sort of stay his hand to prevent him pressing the nuclear button? And then four years later, you read that. That is more or less what happened with the chief of staff. So it is pretty incredible. I mean, there were a few other things in there that were a little bit weird and that I put in the book, and I did for a while get tweets and things from people who were reading it saying, you know, will you do my lottery numbers this week? Because things I'd put in the book then did happen.
- [40:44]
A
So we are winding up our special Sukkot episode.
- [40:48]
B
We are. We are retracting the roof.
- [40:50]
A
Yes.
- [40:50]
B
And we are covering up our sukkah. And. And we should mention that if you love this podcast, we hope you do, please do recommend it to your friends and you can review it online, wherever you get your podcast, we would always be grateful. And we're at Instagram as two Jews. No digits or numbers, just the words to Jews on Instagram.
- [41:13]
A
Oh, look at you. So Instagram savvy. We will also say thank you to Rom Atik, of course, to our executive producer, Liora Friedman, and tell you that we are also on the Forward, one of the most influential Jewish publications in the world, and on El Al flights, if we ever, ever get on one of them, Jonathan, we can listen to ourselves.
- [41:35]
B
And a big thanks, obviously, to Kara Swisher for joining us in Al Socar.
- [41:38]
A
Indeed. And we shall meet next week.