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- [00:06]
A
It's unholy. I'm Jonathan Friedland in London.
- [00:09]
B
And I'm Yonit Levy in Tel Aviv.
- [00:11]
A
Yoni, we were planning a regular episode for, for today. Instead, I'm speaking to you now just a couple of hours after Yom Kippur has finished here in Britain. And like a lot of people, I was in synagogue today when sort of whispered word went around the congregation of a terrible, of terrible news of a terror attack on a synagogue in Manchester in England in which we now know two people were killed and at least two, possibly three, are very seriously injured. And we're sort of reeling from that, to be honest. And a memory came back to me which I know I talked about here with you. One of my earliest memories, a childhood memory of being in synagogue on yom Kippur in 1973 when I was six years old. And I think I told you that there was this kind of whisper went around the shul. People are not allowed to have radio and TV on and so on. But word had emerged that Israel was under attack and it was the Yom Kippur war. And I remember as a child seeing the anxious faces of adults around and that was a one off experience. But today in synagogue, something very much like it. That mood of the outside world seeping in and in this case coming in in deadly fashion. Right as it were on our doorstep.
- [01:40]
B
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking of you. We have a two hour time difference and, you know, we both fast. I opened my phone and I understood what happened and I was thinking exactly about that. I wondered if you were in synagogue, if you had heard about it, will you hear about it only after you open your phone, what would be the, you know, the mood and what it would be like. And I kind of wrote you an email and we immediately decided to record this episode. But it really feels like, and you're obviously much better situated to explain this than I am, but it really feels like it is a very dark day for the Jewish community in the uk. And I've been discussing this with a few friends again in the sort of couple of hours, very few hours that we had since Yom Kippur. And the feeling is, I mean, they say we not surprised, we're terribly shocked, we're terribly sad, but we're not surprised.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah, that was precisely the sentiment expressed to me just minutes before I joined you here. I spoke to one of those people involved in protecting the Jewish community. And by way of context, you know, the Jewish community is protected and has to be. You cannot go to a Jewish building, a school or a synagogue without encountering guards on the door. But also a kind of hardened premises that in a pretty well every Jewish community building has reinforced windows and special gates and extensive cctv. And people are, have long been saddened by that. But now there's been a very, very, you know, deadly reminder of how important that is. But in speaking to those security officials, they, the first thing that they said to me was that this is no surprise. We've been preparing for it, we've been fearing it, we've seen it around the world. You know, we've reported on this podcast about attacks in Washington D.C. and Boulder, Colorado in continental Europe over the years. And so they were ready for it and actually quite literally ready for it. One of the things they are saying is that the security measures that were in place did they believe save lives. That the presence of guards, the presence of gates, a community that knew what to do, that had been trained in shutting the doors, those special security doors prevented this assailant getting inside. Where as it was put, to me, it could have been much, much worse. I mean that is of, no, I was going to say small. It's no consolation to the loved ones and family members of the people who were killed and indeed those worrying about the, the, their loved ones in hospital now seriously injured. But this could have been much worse. And I think there can be no doubt assailant wanted it to be much worse. So that's what he would have had in mind, we can say, because the police have now named him just, just very recently as you and I speak, they have named him as a 30 year old, 35 year old British citizen of Syrian descent. So it's thought to be a naturalized British citizen by the name of Jihad Al Shami. So you know, there is obviously a pointer there in that name that people will understand. But at the moment the focus has just been on getting through this day where suddenly a whole lot of people who were expecting to have a day of reflection and contemplation, instead were many of them working to protect the community and working with police. A lot of praise instantly for the police. They reacted very, very quickly. They were on the scene within, as far as I can see, five or six minutes and shot and killed the assailant who there was some fear, had a kind of suicide vest on him that has been examined since and proved to have been, in their words, not viable. But so it was either, you know, perhaps some sort of dummy vest that was designed to terrify people or if it was Something more. It didn't work. So that has been the picture here. And now, you know, there will be all kinds of questions now about what happens next. You know, does the security at Jewish buildings have to be yet more serious reaction from government leaders? I mean, I was sitting in synagogue when I had nothing to go on. I didn't have my phone on. And I was just thinking. I really. I'm assuming. But I just. I sort of hoped that the mayor of Manchester will be on the scene, that the prime minister will be, you know, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community. And sure enough, Keir Starmel was at a synagogue tonight. He was there in time for Neilah, the concluding service, so that he could stand in solidarity with Jews. The home secretary, our kind of interior minister, has been making all the right kind of statements about this is an attack on our Jewish friends and neighbors, that we stand in solidarity with them. There is no place for anti Semitism and vowing a message of kind of unity and solidarity with Britons, again, worth emphasizing tiny Jewish community. I mean, this gives a country of, what is it, 65, approaching 70 million people. It's estimated there are not much more than 250,000 Jews in Britain. It is a tiny community. It's more or less confined these days to London and Manchester. So Manchester, historic Jewish community. There are pockets of Jewish communities elsewhere, but those are the two substantial Jewish communities. And this inner part that is right in the heart of Jewish Manchester, Heaton park in North Manchester, an Orthodox community there that is. That would have been recognizable to, you know, Jews decades and decades ago, that community. And today they came face to face with terror.
- [07:31]
B
Yeah, I have to say I can hear in your voice how this is affecting you and how it happened really, only a few hours ago. So it's a little bit of. Also digesting what happened. You mentioned the security and the fact that. And this man, the terrorist, kind of rammed his car first of all into the worshippers and then started stabbing them. Obviously, in Yom Kippur, the synagogue would be very much full. And the people who managed to prevent him from going in, both the security guards and also as the reporting is coming out, the rabbi, Rabbi Walker, who is sort of emerging as one of the heroes of this story. You're talking about the prime minister doing all the right things. And that is true, I think, for this. But I'm taking this perhaps a few steps back and to the feeling generally of the community. And we've been talking a lot about this, even before October 7th, I think we had David Badil, on talking about how, you know, anti Semitism is the only form of racism that somehow has become acceptable right. In his book Jews Don't Count. And of course, all this has been exacerbated by October 7th. Manchester. I think one of the places where you had the first sort of pro Hamas rallies days, maybe even a day after October 7, 2023, when we think of that, is that even a day when you think of the connection between all of this, that the fact that there are these sort of flames of antisemitism that goes unchecked perhaps in certain places, of course, anti Zionism or anti Israel sort of sentiment, all of that together because we talked about, you know, the fact that it isn't surprising. I mean, what are you thinking when, when you, when all that is in sort of the mix tonight?
- [09:14]
A
Well, I mean, part of it is, is that there will be time for all of those questions. I'm not, I'm sort of not yet in them, but I know I will be in the coming hours. Definitely the case that fear in the Jewish community has spiked enormously in the last two years. And, and not just fear, but fear grounded in evidence, which is that the anti Semitic incidents, incidents of anti Jewish hate, have, you know, massively leapt after October 7th and have continued to stay very, very high. And so that has definitely led to a climate in which people have been deeply anxious and the, you know, the state of alert, the state of vigilance was high. Anyway, I think the, the argument about antisemitism not being taken seriously that, you know, we did talk about with David Badil, it, you know, very much depends on who you speak to there. So the authorities and government leaders of both the previous government, Conservative and this government, Labour, I don't think you'll get Jewish community leaders saying that their concerns were not taken seriously at government level. I think they would say the opposite. And certainly at police level, the Community Security Trust here, which is the body that protects, you know, Jewish charity, that protects the Jewish community and monitors antisemitism, have only praised for their relationship with the police and they've full of praise in my conversations with them again this evening. So they. So at that level there isn't a sense that this is not taken seriously. Rather, it is very specifically. I think what David Bedeel was talking about is that among, you know, progressives, people who combat racism, there are people who go on marches. There is somehow a sort of blind spot, slash kind of exception made around antisemitism, as if somehow either it to Quote, David Badill doesn't quite count as a regular form of racism or that there are somehow extenuating circumstances. And one thing I think people are on their guard about now is that there doesn't come an argument. Obviously we don't know the motives of this one individual. Maybe more, maybe things will come out, maybe there will be statements and social media postings and so on later, but we don't know about this one individual. But you know, what people are bracing for is people to start saying, well, if he was motivated by anger to directed at Israel over the war in Gaza, well, of course the outlet for that anger was wrong, attacking a synagogue. But we understand the anger as if to be making sort of excuses for what is an anti Semitic attack. You know, will there be some people who sort of try and say, say, well, if it's driven by fury at Israel, does it count as antisemitism? You know, I want to interrupt that before it even starts and say, if you are going to a synagogue with a knife in your hand to kill Jews, that's the definition of antisemitism. I'm not really hugely interested in probing the inner workings of your motive. You know, I was thinking while sitting in synagogue about Dylann Roof, the white supremacist who cause bloody mayhem in a church, a mainly black church in the United States. People weren't sort of saying, well, depends what he was angry about. No, if you're going to kill people of a particular minority, then that is a racist attack on that minority. I'm saying this in the abstract. It's not as if I've seen people making these arguments. I'm just in a way, bracing for them and trying to sort of head them off. So I think, you know, those things will be in the mix. The climate of fear and the sense that, you know, things have grown very, very intense in the last two years. As I say, everyone in authority has been very, very clear in saying for the last two years, however angry you are about what's going on there, that isn't the same as what's going on here. And, you know, British Jewish citizens are a minority like other minorities and deserve full protection. But maybe that message is not echoed enough beyond people in authority. I just wanted to say something about your mention of the conduct of the leaders of the Jewish community there in Heaton Park. I read that there was an attempt, I don't know how successful, but to continue to carry on the service today. And that certainly happened in the place where I sat in shul and you know, to say those prayers, to continue saying them, did feel, well, it felt completely natural on one level. It didn't feel like a big stagey act of defiance. But now that I'm thinking about it, it was an act of defiance to just continue and to mourn and to exchange in a way condolences with each other and to be speaking of our fears, but absolutely continuing our Yom Kippur service. And that is a statement in a way which is saying British Jewish life will continue and must continue.
- [14:24]
B
You.
- [14:25]
A
But it has definitely been shaken.
- [14:26]
B
Tonight you answered the question I was about to ask, which was while you are sitting in synagogue, do you feel like, okay, maybe I should go home or maybe I should stay here? Which to me the fact that, you know, that the service continued is really is brave. And it does beg the question, what does that do to the community? I'm thinking of Tree of Life and the attack, the lethal attack against Jews in the United States, of course, that happened before October 7th. What does this mean for the Jewish community in the uk? I mean, maybe it's too soon to even try and analyze that. We're really talking a few hours after, but just sort of thoughts off the top of your head.
- [15:07]
A
Yeah, I mean the question did not even arise actually about people going home. I didn't hear a single person say they were going to do that for that reason, which now I think about it is sort of worthy of note, isn't it? I mean, it's not obvious that people wouldn't even have considered it. They didn't. And as I say, it's not in some sort of big heroic, we're going to stand up to the haters way. It just seemed completely. Not even a question. Obviously it's Yom Kippur. We're going to finish our Yom Kippur service and throw us properly into it and singing those ancient melodies and offering those prayers. But I'm, but I'm sure it was in people's minds. And the strangest thing about a climate like this, when there is the fear is you might think, or rather there's a sort of perhaps a slightly paradoxical reaction, which is when people feel in danger, when Jewish buildings and Jewish gatherings are targeted. The place people feel safest is with other Jews, strangely. And so you know, there will be parents of children at Jewish schools who will be thinking, well now the Jewish school is a target. And yet when antisemitism is surging, it's also the case, and I was speaking to a would be parent who's making this decision now. I mean she is already a parent, but a would be parent of a school aged child thinking, should I send my child to a Jewish school? This was before we were talking about the attack. And part of it is a feeling of look, in the climate when anti Semitism is around in quite an intense way, even though it may be more of a target, you feel safer with people who understand you and know where you're coming from. Now in some ways I can imagine, imagine people hearing that and thinking that's a bit of a council of despair because they would love and I'm thinking my non Jewish friends here, they would want British Jews to feel that they can be fully participant in British society and that their neighbors and friends will have their back. But as an immediate reaction, I think there is a kind of clinging together, a sort of huddling together. There will be defiance. And I think, look, politics at the moment has not intruded, but it will. And there will be some political arguments. Somebody will say something where something poorly judged and people will then say you're blaming the victims. And here's one thing I must mention to you because it wasn't prompted by me and I was surprised to hear it. But one of those people, because I've been speaking to two or three those Jewish community officials said that statements from Israeli politicians in the last few hours going, you know, on making arguments, saying, well, this is the British government's fault for its Middle east policy and so on. It was said to me that those were, quote, profoundly unhelpful. Profoundly unhelpful. Do not make it political, do not make it about Israel. This needs to be, they say about the Jewish community in Britain. It's being having allies and partners, including the police, and turning it into a battle against the British government. Making it about politics is not helpful. Now I stress because I know people might think I was looking for that. I absolutely wasn't. It came unprompted. My thoughts were not there yet. And candidly I wasn't aware that Israeli politicians have been speaking about this because, you know, I'm sitting here in the clothes I was wearing in synagogue. I've had barely any chance to immerse myself in that. But that was a reaction from somebody who is not, you know, some kind of left wing critic of Israel. On the contrary, is a communal British Jewish community official involved in safeguarding British Jewish life. His message was right now not helpful.
- [18:42]
B
I will quote the Prime Minister on X writing, israel agrees with the Jewish community in the uk. After the barbaric terror attack in Manchester. Our hearts are with the families of the murdered. We pray for the swift recovery of the wounded. He adds, as I warned at the un, weakness in the face of terrorism only brings more terrorism. Only strength and unity can defeat it. I will say that a few Israelis replied to him, perhaps reminded him that under his watch happened the worst terror attack in the history of the state of Israel. But yes, in this kind of vein, there have been these responses from some of the politicians in the government. If I may, I would want to quote to you another post on X of our friend of the pod and the correspondent for Channel 12 in London for many years of Atzim Chayef. He wrote, yom Kippur is the holiest of days when we Jews look inward, reflect on our sins and ask forgiveness. Today, I wish those outside our wounded community would do the same. I think that's a better thing to quote than some other Israeli politicians who wrote about what happened in Manchester.
- [19:54]
A
A lot of wisdom in that. I mean, just on the point of view about the politics, you know, I think that reference by the Prime Minister, Netanyahu, to what he said at the un he's somehow making a connection between what's just happened in Manchester and certainly an implied suggestion that that was perhaps related to the UK government's recognition of a Palestinian state, if that was his meaning. Netanyahu's. It seems to me that is as facile as if somebody would say if this terror attack had happened before recognition. Well, this just shows you why you must recognize a Palestinian state so that you can implicate the anger that these people are feeling. That would be facile and ridiculous. The other direction, it seems to me, just as facile and ridiculous. This direction, somebody who's in the business of murdering Jews is not going to sort of alter their course because of diplomatic events in New York and is watching for government statements. This is a murderous, anti Semitic act. And all I can do, really, I can't improve upon the words of those of the officials I was speaking to here who day and night are trying to work to protect Jewish communities and spend all day working around the clock in the aftermath of this attack saying it is profoundly unhelpful to do that. You know, they will make political points with other things, but you don't have to do it with this because for one thing, it dignifies the killers with some kind of diplomatic or political calculus, which I think it gives them a dignity they do not deserve.
- [21:35]
B
Finally, I mean, I don't know if these are words of wisdom at all, but just words of profound sympathy and solidarity and strength that we are sending you from Tel Aviv to London, Jonathan, and thank you for talking to us and, you know, walking us through this. We, we, we did, as you say, plan a completely different episode post Yom Kippur. But reality does, you know, hit us on the head pretty hard sometimes.
- [22:03]
A
So it does. And I was going to say, in terms of the coverage this week, we thought we were going to be talking all week about the Trump plan. We did talk about that in an update, emergency update episode with our friend Amos Harel. You can still get that sort of deep dive analysis of the Trump plan. And we do have a very special episode coming to mark October 7th. Really, I think in the right way, perhaps we should say something about how we're doing that. Yoni.
- [22:36]
B
Yes, we have a conversation that will drop late Sunday with Elisha Abi, who was a hostage for 491 days in Gaza. He is a remarkable person. I really encourage our listeners to listen to this conversation with him. His story encapsulates everything about October 7th, the horror, the tragedy, the family tragedy, but also, of course, the resilience and sort of the human spirit that can get through this terrible calamity. And I think it's a conversation that will resonate with our listeners and that will, as we said, drop on Sunday.
- [23:13]
A
Yeah. As we lead up to the second anniversary of October 7th. So it was already a somber time. Certainly here where I am, it's become more somber still. Our thank yous, as always, to Michal Bat, and you and I will see each other next time and hopefully in.
- [23:31]
B
Safer and happier days.