Podcast Summary: United States of Kennedy — "Catholicism and the Kennedys"

Date: January 12, 2026
Hosts: George Civeris & Julia Claire
Guest: Matt Sittman (Know Your Enemy podcast, formerly of Commonweal Magazine)

Main Theme

This episode examines the complex and iconic relationship between the Kennedy family and Catholicism, exploring how their faith shaped public perceptions, personal dynamics, and political strategies. The discussion covers the historical backdrop of anti-Catholic prejudice, the intersection of religion and American democracy, gender dynamics within the Kennedy family, and the enduring mythology of the Kennedys as America’s "most famous Catholic family."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Kennedys as America’s Catholic Dynasty

[03:01–04:12]

• The Kennedys are still seen as the most famous Catholic family in America.
• Hosts note the spectrum of religious devotion in the family: Rose, Bobby, and Ethel were devout, while others were more casual about Catholicism.
• Early Kennedys, notably Joe, faced significant anti-Catholic prejudice in elite WASP Boston circles, motivating him to amass wealth and seek power.
  • “These early anti-Catholic slights motivated [Joe Kennedy] to amass a gigantic fortune and crown one of his sons the first Catholic President of the United States.” — George ([03:30])

2. The Political Stakes of Catholicism

[03:57–04:28]

• JFK’s 1960 presidential campaign brought the “Catholic Question” to the forefront, with accusations of dual loyalty—serving the Pope over America.
• Host Julia highlights the election’s razor-thin margin and public suspicion about JFK’s faith.
• JFK both courted Catholic support and publicly defended the separation of church and state (notably in his 1960 Houston speech).

3. Guest Introduction: Matt Sittman’s Catholic Bonafides

[04:47–07:32]

• Matt explains his unusual path to Catholicism (raised fundamentalist Christian, converted as an adult).

• Sittman’s experience at Commonweal, a liberal Catholic magazine, gave him insight into how Catholics adapt to pluralism and liberal democracy, topics the Catholic Church did not always embrace.

  • “It really is liberal in the sense of liberalism as a political philosophy… 75 years ago, as a Catholic in the United States, was not the tradition that the Church was offering you.” — Matt ([06:22])

4. Interdenominational Rivalries and Identity

[08:03–09:59]

• Julia discusses moving between Catholic and evangelical traditions, emphasizing intra-Christian tensions many outsiders might not expect.
• George reflects on being raised Greek Orthodox—a similar but distinctly different tradition, with its own emphasis on aesthetic and ritual differences.
• Aesthetics differ: Catholic “superior dragginess” vs. Orthodox simplicity.

5. The Kennedy Imprisonment (Gary Wills) and the Family’s Dysfunction

[10:39–15:25]

• Discussion of Gary Wills’ The Kennedy Imprisonment, praised as the “best book ever written about the Kennedys” (Matt, [10:40]).
• Book’s thesis: The Kennedys’ myth is both Freudian and Shakespearean—stripping away but not totally deconstructing their legend.
• Key insights into the Kennedy men’s relationships with women—an environment described as “cult-like,” with Joe Kennedy’s sexual competition with his sons highlighted.
  • “It’s just deranged. I don’t think people recognize just how much sex there was…” — Matt ([15:25])
• Matt observes that Catholicism in the family is most strictly expressed not by the men but by the women (Rose, Ethel), often holding themselves to higher standards amid the men’s hypocrisy.

6. Gender, Catholicism, and Power

[17:01–18:17]

• While Kennedy men were often defined by their sins and political ambitions, family women internalized and enforced the Church’s demands more rigidly.
  • “The ones who were most strictly held to the principles of Catholicism—it was the women in the family. … This was just a very patriarchal, in the truest sense of the word, family.” — Julia ([17:13])

7. Joe Kennedy’s Assimilation and the Performative Use of Catholicism

[21:31–24:18]

• George and Julia discuss Joe’s attempt to assimilate into WASP power structures—initially seeking acceptance above all, only embracing his Catholic/Irish identity when it served his ambitions.

• Joe's desire for a son to become president was, per Matt, a form of “elaborate revenge fantasy” against Boston’s Protestant elite.

  • “He didn’t get what he wanted. This was a man who got what he wanted most of the time. And wanting one of his sons to be president is a kind of elaborate revenge fantasy…” — Matt ([22:38])

8. Mid-Century Catholicism in America & Vatican II

[25:27–28:26]

• Matt details the parallel “reign of the two Johns”—John XXIII (who called Vatican II) and John F. Kennedy.
• Vatican II opened the Catholic Church to pluralism, human rights, and democracy—the same period as JFK’s presidency: symbolism and policy overlapped historically and personally.
• Jesuit advisor John Courtney Murray’s advisory role in JFK’s Houston speech—a link between American Catholic reform and Kennedy’s campaign.
  • “There are links, very particular links in terms of people that were connected to both... Pope John XXIII’s reign and President Kennedy’s reign.” — Matt ([28:26])

9. Anti-Catholic Prejudice and the “Catholic Question”

[30:55–36:41]

• Kennedy’s campaign brought anti-Catholic bigotry to the surface—hostility from both Republicans and Democrats (including Eleanor Roosevelt).

• The “dual loyalty” charge: would a Catholic president take orders from the Pope? The Catholic Church was seen as “other” and even incompatible with liberal democracy.

  • “It is essentially a dual loyalty charge that the Pope was… a kind of monarch who had terrestrial power… This was a religion that supposedly didn’t believe in liberty of conscience.” — Matt ([33:43])

10. Vatican II, the Latin Mass, and Catholic “Mystery”

[39:45–41:27]

• Julia and Matt discuss how pre-Vatican II Catholicism seemed secretive and exotic to outsiders, with masses in Latin and “magic” rituals (last rites, oils).
  • “There was something aesthetically and viscerally kind of alien to it.” — Matt ([40:09])
• Comparisons made to public suspicion about other “mysterious” faiths—like Mormonism during Mitt Romney’s campaign.

11. Comparing Kennedys & Trumps: Power, Sex, Media, and Myth

[52:02–55:03]

• George and Matt draw compelling parallels between the Kennedys and the Trumps, especially Joe Kennedy’s chip-on-the-shoulder insecurity about being rejected by elite society mirroring Trump’s Outer Borough complex.
• Both families had obsessions with media, Hollywood, and cultivating a glamorized image—while harboring deep personal dysfunction.
  • “I could totally imagine John F. Kennedy saying what Trump said on the Access Hollywood tape. …It was that sense of having the right… as his birthright.” — Matt ([53:01–53:05])
  • Obsession with gossip, Hollywood, and “who Frank Sinatra is fucking” ([54:42–55:03]).

12. Are the Kennedys Good Catholics? Myth Versus Reality

[58:48–63:00]

• The question is raised: Have the Kennedys been “bad Catholics”? Matt offers a nuanced answer, citing both the family’s embrace of ritual and their public and private transgressions.
  • “Are the Kennedys good Catholics? Well, no, but none of us are… that is partly the point of Catholicism. That we are sinners… bound in ways that the exercises of our freedom can’t overcome.” — Matt ([62:47])
• The role of tragedy and public death in both Catholic lore and the Kennedy story—death is part of the Catholic narrative; mourning and ritual are strengths of the faith.

13. Regional and Generational Divides in Kennedy Loyalty

[66:16–70:32]

• Julia reflects on two responses in Irish Catholic Massachusetts: veneration vs. resentment (seeing the Kennedys as either role models or interlopers).

• Matt compares Kennedy-worship/hatred to Hillary Clinton’s dynamic among women: identification fueled by generational struggle, and intense emotional reactions on both sides.

  • “They don’t want the mythology disturbed… I think their identification… comes from generational struggle.” — Matt ([67:49])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Kennedys’ Relationship to Women:

  • “The Catholicism of the Kennedys is most fully expressed in the people you don't see in their mythologies, which is the women.” — Matt ([16:05])

• On JFK’s Public Catholicism:

  • “It was his Obama Jeremiah Wright speech.” — Matt ([31:13]) (regarding JFK’s Houston address separating himself from direct Papal authority)

• On the Family’s Sins:

  • “All the men are sort of identifiable by their mortal sins… JFK was lust, Bobby was wrath…” — Julia ([48:37])

• On Kennedy Mythology and Death:

  • “Death and rebirth are the metier of both Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular. And they do both really, really well.” — Matt ([64:25])
  • “This very public family, they've died very publicly as well. And there's something interesting to that because it's very Catholic in its own way.” — Matt ([65:42])

• On the Parallels with Trump:

  • “Joe Kennedy, much like Trump, so upset that he had all of the material... of what should make for a high status man, but he was rejected by high society. And that is clearly such a fundamental original wound within Joe.” — Julia ([53:14])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Episode Setup: [03:01–04:28]
• Matt Sittman’s Background: [05:17–07:32]
• Gender & Catholicism in the Family: [15:25–18:31]
• Joe Kennedy’s Assimilation & Motivations: [21:31–24:18]
• The Catholic “Problem” in JFK’s Campaign: [30:55–36:41]
• Comparisons to Mormonism & Other “Exotic” Faiths: [41:27–43:29]
• The Kennedy Men’s Sins & Gary Wills’ Book: [47:51–52:02]
• Kennedys vs. Trumps (Power & Myth): [52:02–55:03]
• Are the Kennedys ‘Good Catholics’?: [58:48–63:00]
• Public Mourning & Catholic Ritual: [64:25–65:53]
• Massachusetts Catholic Response to Kennedys: [66:16–70:32]
• Parallels to Hillary Clinton, Political Myths: [70:32–72:55]

Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable.
• Nuanced acknowledgment of both the achievements and flaws of the Kennedys.
• The interplay between personal anecdotes, scholarship, and pop culture makes the episode engaging for listeners familiar and unfamiliar with Catholicism.

Further Listening & Reading

• Gary Wills, The Kennedy Imprisonment — Recommended as the best Kennedy book for understanding their myth and reality ([10:40] and [73:32]).
• Know Your Enemy podcast episode with Jeet Heer — In-depth discussion of Wills’s book ([73:54]).

Closing Reflection

The episode provides a layered, critical, and often humorous exploration of how the Kennedys navigated faith, power, and public expectations. It recognizes the importance of both myth and history in shaping our collective understanding of the family, and situates the Kennedy story within broader narratives of American religion, democracy, and popular culture.