Film of the Month: Grey Gardens

Summary

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United States of Kennedy — Film of the Month: Grey Gardens

Podcast: United States of Kennedy (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Lyra Smith & George Civeris
Guest: Olivia Aylmer
Release Date: October 13, 2025
Episode Theme:
A deep dive into the enduring fascination and cultural legacy of the 1975 documentary “Grey Gardens,” which captured the eccentric lives of Jackie Kennedy’s relatives—Big Edie and Little Edie Beale. The conversation centers on the film’s history, its place within the Kennedy mythos, its documentary innovations, and its continued influence in popular culture, especially on its 50th anniversary.

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Episode Overview

The hosts and guest Olivia Aylmer (Senior Editor at the Slowdown) explore "Grey Gardens"—the groundbreaking documentary by the Maysles Brothers that portrayed the eccentric, reclusive lives of Edith "Big Edie" Bouvier Beale and her daughter Edith "Little Edie" Beale. The episode reflects on the film’s origins, documentary style, and controversial reception, as well as its queer and camp afterlives, resonance with viewers, and lingering questions about exploitation, fame, and self-invention in the shadow of Kennedys.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: The Beales and Kennedy Ties

• Introduction of Film:

  • Grey Gardens (1975) by the Maysles Brothers follows Big Edie and Little Edie, Jackie Kennedy’s aunt and cousin, as they live in their decaying East Hampton mansion.
  • The film captures their unique relationship, their home’s extreme deterioration, and their resilience and eccentricity.
  • “Big Edie and Little Edie are Jackie O's aunt and cousin respectively…Little Edie was at JFK's inauguration in 1960.” (03:05–03:16)

• Descent into Scandal and Squalor:

  • After the family's finances wane, the house falls into severe disrepair, leading to local health inspections, tabloid attention, and eventual intervention by Jackie and Lee Radziwill.
  • “By 1971 [the house] was full of cats, infested by fleas and raccoons and deprived of running water.” (03:16–03:49)

The Documentary’s Origins & Evolution

• Media Spotlight and Intervention:

  • The Beales became public figures through major stories in New York Magazine and National Enquirer.
  • Jackie and Lee funded a clean-up so Edie and her mother could remain in the house.

• Maysles Brothers' Role:

  • Originally brought in by Lee Radziwill to document her own memories and summers; their focus shifted to the Beales themselves, who quickly eclipsed Lee as the stars.
  • “Their attention was nowhere else but them. Whatever vision Lee had…that was not the real story here. The real stars were emerging and it was these two women in this house.” (11:32–12:24)

• Documentary’s Premiere and Reception:

  • Premiered at Cannes (1976), then at the New York Film Festival to widespread acclaim—despite some critics finding it exploitative.
  • Sparked adaptations, drag interpretations, a Tony-winning musical, and even a Drew Barrymore/Jessica Lange film.

Personal Connections & First Impressions

• 50th Anniversary Screening:

  • Olivia attended a celebratory screening at Paris Theater with Julia Fox and fan attendees dressed in homage to Little Edie’s iconic style. (05:46–06:18)
  • “A crowd full of the ghosts of little Edie in their fabulous headscarves.” — Olivia Aylmer (06:09)

• Olivia’s Intro to Grey Gardens:

  • Saw the HBO adaptation first, then the original as a teen.
  • Her friend’s theatrical, encouraging dad used the film to inspire Olivia and her friend as “spirited young women who want to do things a little differently.” (07:43)
  • Both Olivia and George reflect on the film’s “cacophonous” quality and iconic “vocal stims” that stick with viewers.

Grey Gardens’ Impact on Documentary Film and Reality TV

• Documentary Innovation:

  • Grey Gardens was part of the cinéma vérité/direct cinema movement, presenting unvarnished slices of life without heavy-handed narrative, voiceover, or musical cues.
  • “Trying to capture what they were seeing before them. Not trying to set it up, but just letting these people tell us who they are.” — Olivia Aylmer (28:07)

• Proto-Reality TV:

  • The hosts draw a line from the Beales’ on-camera performativity to modern reality television, especially shows like The Real Housewives.
  • Noted irony: Carole Radziwill (Lee’s daughter-in-law) later herself becomes a Real Housewife. (10:27–10:57)
  • “You can find a path from Grey Gardens to what modern reality television looks and sounds like.” — Lyra Smith (10:27)

Controversy: Exploitation vs. Agency

• Reception and Debate:

  • At the time, the documentary style—and the spectacle of two ‘fallen’ aristocrats—was both engrossing and controversial, accused of being exploitative “tabloid fodder.”
  • “I’m not at all surprised that that debate was happening…what is the agency of the subjects in any sort of portrayal or documentation?” — Olivia Aylmer (36:26)

• Little Edie as a Performer:

  • The hosts and Olivia strongly argue for Little Edie’s agency—her awareness, joy in performing, and the nuance allowed in her portrayal:
    • “If we didn’t have Grey Gardens…the fact that we wouldn’t know them, that to me seems the bigger heartbreak.” (36:56)
    • Little Edie attended the New York Film Festival premiere and reveled in the attention, “throwing flowers into the crowd.” (36:56–38:09)

The Beales' Life, Dreams, and Trapped Freedoms

• Relationship to Their Home:

  • Deep ties to Grey Gardens mansion; loss of wealth; return of Little Edie after failed attempts to launch a performing career in New York.
  • Trap of class, gender roles, and family expectations:
    • “It’s also just her unwillingness to accept the path that was clearly laid out for her…she very well could have walked.” — Olivia Aylmer (40:00–41:07)

• Comparisons to Jackie & Lee:

  • All three (Big Edie, Little Edie, Lee) raised to ‘marry well.’
  • Little Edie rejected that future; Lee and Jackie outwardly complied, but with complications and heartbreak.

• The Theme of Freedom:

  • A poignant segment on Little Edie’s quotes about freedom and independence, contrasted with the reality of her dependence.
    • “I like freedom.”
      — Little Edie
    • “Well, you can’t get any, darling. You’re being supported. You can’t get any freedom when you’re being supported.”
      — Big Edie (56:39–56:58)
    • “You’re not free when you’re not being supported. It’s awful both ways.” — Little Edie (57:03)

Iconography and Cultural Legacy

• Fashion and Gay Icons:

  • Little Edie's “costume” approach to fashion makes her a queer and drag icon, as does her ability to “elevate” herself despite adversity.
  • “She is using what she has at her disposal, which is way less wealth and…way less access to designer clothes than Jackie has…But every time she’s on camera, she makes sure to have her head covered. She’s making very interesting choices.” — George Civeris (45:01–46:30)
  • Drag and parody: Introduced by drag queens, endlessly referenced (Drag Race, Fred Armisen/Bill Hader, etc.).

• Universality and Relatability:

  • Despite their unique circumstances, the Beales’ family dynamic, fierce independence, and disputes are deeply familiar and relatable.
  • “There’s family dynamics that are so universal playing out here.” — Olivia Aylmer (54:49–56:00)
  • Julia Fox’s insight at the anniversary screening: It’s the moment of sweetness after cattiness that feels especially real.

• Enduring Impact:

  • The hosts and Olivia agree the film is a “time capsule” that will continue to resonate for another 50 years.
    • “To me, that is the legacy. It’s the fact that their legend was born on screen through this movie, but it's one that keeps finding people.” — Olivia Aylmer (56:00)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

Little Edie’s Enduring Lines

• “I like freedom.” “Well, you can't get any, darling. You're being supported. Can't get any freedom when you're being supported.” “You're not free when you're not being supported. It's awful both ways.” (56:39–57:03)

Big Edie’s Wisdom

• “No, I'm glad he is. I'm glad somebody's doing something he wanted to do.” — Big Edie, wryly commenting as a cat urinates behind her portrait (58:37–59:12)

On Style

• “She’s dressing for the life she wants, not for the surroundings she has…Little Edie is dressing in a way that, like, the camera can’t turn away from her.” — Olivia Aylmer (47:08)

On Performance and Legacy

• “If we didn’t have Grey Gardens…the fact that we wouldn’t know them, that to me seems the bigger heartbreak, disappointment.” — Olivia Aylmer (36:56)
• “She actually is allowed to be a very complex figure on camera. And I think she could so easily have been just caricatured. But the quotes that you get from her actually paint a pretty complicated picture.” — George Civeris (39:20)

Cultural Resonance

• “If I had made a different decision…if I hadn't gone to the audition, what would my life be? And there's this poetry, like an internal poetry to the film that…is why I really do think we'll be watching it for the next 50 years.” — Olivia Aylmer (55:15–56:00)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Background & Kennedy Connection: 02:55–04:14
• Olivia’s 50th Anniversary Screening Recap: 05:46–06:18
• Personal Grey Gardens Discovery Story: 06:37–07:40
• Reality TV Influence / Radziwill Connection: 10:27–10:57
• Fashion, Drag, and Gay Icon Status: 45:01–47:08
• Debate on Exploitation, Little Edie's Agency: 36:04–38:09
• Theme of Freedom Conversation: 56:39–57:21
• Garbo at Paris anecdote: 62:03–63:26

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Listener Takeaways

• Grey Gardens endures because it operates as both an anthropological document and a camp, queer touchstone; it’s a film about performance, family, and self-invention within collapse.
• The Beales’ ability to persevere and create meaning, even from isolation and squalor, is both inspiring and poignant—and never without complexity.
• The film profoundly influenced both the language and style of reality-based, character-driven storytelling.
• Its legacy as a litmus test—a “fun house mirror”—reflects back the preoccupations of whatever audience watches it, whether those are about gender, class, family, performance, or the longing for freedom.

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Further Research & Lasting Questions

• Jackie and Lee’s public statements on the film and their evolving relationships with Big and Little Edie remain largely unchronicled.
• The history and contributions of all filmmakers (including Muffy Meyer and Ellen Hovde) deserve greater recognition.
• The Beales’ story continues to attract new generations—witnessed most recently at the 50th anniversary event, with new viewers and super-fans alike drawn by the film’s unique alchemy of pathos, humor, and individuality.

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Closing Reflection:
Grey Gardens—like the Beales themselves—remains uncategorizable: tragic and comic, glamorous and dilapidated, self-aware and unaware, ahead of its time and out of time. Its impact is only growing, as viewers and artists continue to find new truths within its “perpetual present.”

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Transcript

[Lyra Smith]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times. It starts with a dream, a nature reserve and a spectacular new home. But little by little, they lose it.

[Olivia Aylmer]

They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Helen Heather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single episode.

[Lyra Smith]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Olivia Aylmer]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Lyra Smith]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Olivia Aylmer]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Sacred Scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Alena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ.

[George Severis]

This season she's telling her story.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

When I first joined the Legion of.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almaser, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

[Ed Helms]

Surviving meant hiding.

[George Severis]

Escaping Took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Sacred Scandal, the Many secrets.

[George Severis]

Of Marcus Cial masiel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm George Severis. I'm Lyra Smith and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story and today we are talking about The Maisel's Brothers 1975 documentary Gray Gardens, the iconic cult classic.

[Lyra Smith]

Portraying the lives of idiosyncratic and reclusive mother daughter duo Edith Bouvier Beal and little Edie Beal in their East Hampton estate, Grey Gardens.

[George Severis]

Big Edie and Little Edie are Jackie O's aunt and cousin respectively. After Big Edie's marriage ended, she found herself alone in her East Hampton home and her daughter moved back in with her a few years later.

[Lyra Smith]

Little edie was at JFK's inauguration in 1960. There's a famous story of her at the reception in the White House for where she approached Joe Sr. And joked that she was the original future first lady of the Kennedy family as she was almost engaged to Joe Jr. Before his death in World War II. There are striking similarities in the way that Little Edie and Jackie O were raised, but ultimately Little Edie never married, instead staying with her mother in the house that by 1971 was full of cats, infested by fleas and raccoons and deprived of running water.

[George Severis]

A series of inspections from the Suffolk County Health Department allegedly resulted in 1000 bags of garbage being taken out. As this was happening, Big Edie and Little Edie became infamous to the American public after a big cover story in New York magazine about them and an article in the National Enquirer, Jackie O.

[Lyra Smith]

And her sister Lee Radswell provided the funds for a cleanup effort which shockingly took place before this documentary was filmed.

[George Severis]

Enter the Maisels Brothers. The acclaimed documentarians originally visited the Gray Gardens estate with Lee Radswell, but were immediately taken with Big Edie and Little Edie. After spending more time with them, they decided to make a film documenting their day to day life living together.

[Lyra Smith]

Grey Garden screened at the 1976 Cannes Film Festival and had its US premiere at the New York Film Festival where it received widespread acclaim. Even though some critics found its filmmaking.

[George Severis]

Exploitative, it has since become a major cult classic and resulted in a Tony winning musical, a movie adaptation starring Drew Barrymore and Jessica Lange, a parody starring Fred Armisen and Bill Hader, as well as of course thousands of drag interpretations across the country.

[Lyra Smith]

This year is the 50th anniversary of the premiere of Gray Gardens at the Paris Theater which hosted a special anniversary screening with special guest Julia Fox. She was one of many Gray Gardens super fans that showed up to celebrate the lasting impact of Big and Little Edie.

[George Severis]

Among them was our guest, Olivia Aylmer.

[Lyra Smith]

Olivia is a senior editor at the New York based media company the Slowdown. Olivia writes about film, art, literature and style and covered the unofficial prequel to Great Gardens titled that summer for Vanity Fair. Olivia, thanks for joining us.

[Olivia Aylmer]

My absolute pleasure. I think there's nowhere else I'd Rather be than talking about Grey Gardens on a Tuesday.

[George Severis]

Let's get into it. So you. Sadly, I was out of town for this. But you just attended a 50th anniversary screening hosted by Julia Fox, moderated by Julia Fox.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Julia Fox, there to talk about how much this movie means to her, alongside Alexis Bitar, the jewelry designer, and Rebecca Mayles, who is the daughter of Albert, who is one of the filmmakers. So it was a really special moment, as I'm sure you both know that Paris is the very theater where Grey Gardens had its public premiere. And that was 50 years ago. So huge moment and really special. And, you know, a crowd full of the ghosts of little Edie in their fabulous headscarves.

[George Severis]

Was there sort of drag stuff happening?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I wouldn't even call it drag. It was like, total devotion. It was really like, people just couldn't help themselves. Like, I think these headscarves have been waiting for their moment, and Sunday was that moment, and, yeah, everyone turned out.

[Lyra Smith]

So what was your relationship to the film before this 50th anniversary screening?

[Olivia Aylmer]

So I was giving this some thought, and I think, honestly, my first awareness of Big and Little Edie was probably the 2009 HBO fictionalized portrait with Jessica Lange and Drew Barrymore, which I'm sure I just saw an ad for at the nail salon with my mom and was like, I love Drew Barrymore. Like, she was an ET and ever after. So that was my awareness of, okay, there are these women and they look like this, and who are they? My way into the actual documentary didn't happen until high school. I had a really good friend named Lauren who was the only other woman at my suburban Richmond, Virginia, high school who planned to move to New York City. So we were, like, kindred spirits. And her dad had worked at a musical theater, had been a tap dancer. And one day he was like, girls, do you know about Great Gardens? No. Okay, Olivia, you're coming over. I'm putting it on. And it was this. I feel like it was the Fourth of July for some reason, which feels fitting. And he basically gave his commentary voiceover, weaving into Big Lil Edie's voices, which we'll get into this more, but it is such a cacophonous, I would say, is the word movie. And, yeah, that was my official sitting down. This is education. Like, you need to know about this film.

[Lyra Smith]

What was his messaging? What was he narrating throughout?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I mean, I think he was just like, you two are spirited young women who want to do things a little differently. I. E. Like, not stay in the place that you went to high school in. And here are two women that you need to know about who very unapologetically lived their lives and had this just ineffable spirit. I think it was really just about their souls and him wanting us to have a relationship to that aspect. I don't remember him going super deep into history or the making. It was really just about them. I feel like he knew some of the lines by heart, which happens, I think, once you've seen this at least twice. There are just stray pieces of their interactions that just live in your brain forevermore.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah, I keep thinking about on TikTok, they say vocal stim.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Yeah.

[Lyra Smith]

You know, and it's like pieces of. And I realized when I was watching this, I was like, oh, really? Gray Gardens was my first experience with a vocal stim. That stuck with me my whole life. I can hear little Edie in my head anytime.

[Olivia Aylmer]

It's true.

[George Severis]

What a generous reading of the film from a dad. You know, I think that was certainly my first interaction with. It was after it had already been, quote, unquote, reclaimed, whatever that means. I saw at the Castro Theater in San Francisco, and I was living there, and it was introduced by a drag queen, and it was already framed to me like a gay cult classic. And I was primed to be like, okay, we love these women. They're iconic. Look at her amazing headscarf, whatever. But it's such a genuinely moving thing to think that a dad would show his ambitious and smart daughters these two women, and for the message to be they lived life on their own terms.

[Olivia Aylmer]

It's true. I mean, I get a father ahead of his time in some ways. But again, the musical theater background, I'm sure, influenced that. And I wish I could go back and ask him what was his first exposure? Because it is really interesting to think about how people come to things that seem like they're just a part of the air. But, no, everyone has their entry point.

[George Severis]

Do you remember what your reaction was at that age?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I think even if I had not gone on to write or edit or work in media, I think they would have just had a hold on me. If I had just seen it that one time, that would have been a strong core memory. I feel like it's one of those documentaries where you're like, I don't think I've seen anything quite like this before. I mean, I can barely imagine what a person in 1975 seeing it would have felt. On Sunday, I was at the screening with my girlfriend and she was experiencing the lore of it for the first time. And she turned to me and whispered midway through, I feel like I'm watching the Kardashians. And I promise I had not planted that at all. That was a truly organic response. There is something just so strangely familiar and. And also utterly strange about what we're witnessing. Two people on camera being super aware of the camera, but also unable to stop being themselves.

[Lyra Smith]

And it's even kind of shot and edited in the Housewives style. I mean, this is. The larger conversation about it, is that it's really. You can find a path from Grey Gardens to what modern reality television looks and sounds like. And it's so, I guess, ironic, or maybe fitting, maybe the opposite of ironic, that Carol Radswell became a housewife after Lee Radzwell is the catalyst for this documentary happening.

[Olivia Aylmer]

That's true.

[George Severis]

So I know you've written about the other documentary that summer, which is a documentary that came out in 2018 that is also about Big Edie and Little Edie, but sort of a slightly different way. Lee Radswell is a huge character in a UC Andy Warhol, which we'll get into later. But I wonder if, in your research about the film, you have a sense of what it means for documentary history. Like, it was not the way things were done at the time, and it was kind of controversial when it came out. So what is your sense of the impact it had on documentaries at that time?

[Olivia Aylmer]

Yeah, I think since you brought up that summer, it is helpful for listeners who might not be familiar with that film and the history behind it. Like, it can basically be viewed as a prequel to what Gray Gardens became. A quick backstory is that Lee Radswell had this vision for there to be a documentary about her summers spending time in the Hamptons and going to visit her cousin. And so she had this vision for a documentary where it would be like, Big Edie is narrating it or has some kind of little role in it, but it really is about her and this documentation of her memories. And they went there that summer of 1972 with the Mayles brothers. She was like, okay, you're gonna be our crew. She was with her boyfriend, Peter Beard, the photographer. And I think she became aware of the Maisels through their Rolling Stones documentary that had come out a little bit within a few weeks of encountering the Beales. Their attention was nowhere else but them. Whatever vision Lee had of what this was gonna be, it became very clear that that was not the real story here. The real stars were emerging and it was these two women in this house and how they got there and how they were living out their lives together. And so all of that original footage was lost or sort of scrapped. And they returned the fall of 1973 to make what became Gray Gardens. That film was also made, Grey Gardens, at a time where there was already some public scandal around, you know, the Beales, which is inseparable from how the media was understanding them and playing a role in this. So there were these, like, what big and little Edie called raids, but, you know, inspections happening by the local Suffolk County Health Department, the aspca. They were like, these conditions are not. These are not sustainable. We need to do something. And tried to basically raise the house. And that is when. And also Jackie, which we'll get into, stepped in to try to restore it or at least get it into a condition where they could keep living there.

[George Severis]

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

In the new podcast, Hell in Heaven, two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder not once. People went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it.

[George Severis]

They actually lose it.

[Olivia Aylmer]

They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu. Every single episode.

[Lyra Smith]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[George Severis]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Olivia Aylmer]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Olivia Aylmer]

All I know is what I've been.

[Ed Helms]

Told, and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[George Severis]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I did not know her and I.

[Lyra Smith]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

They literally made me say that I.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Olivia Aylmer]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Elena Sada]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Olivia Aylmer]

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

To hide, to cry, to survive, and.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Eventually how I got out.

[Elena Sada]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him.

[Ed Helms]

Him.

[Elena Sada]

Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the mini secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

The raids were happening because of media coverage of the sisters. Cause there was this famous like New York magazine cover story. I think it was Also covered in the Times. What was the timeline of that?

[Olivia Aylmer]

Well, I think the raids were not necessarily because of the media coverage. The raids were happening because the town of East Hampton was concerned about the fact that they had discovered the existence of these women in a house that was quite literally falling apart around them. There were holes in the ceiling. It's not an exaggeration to say it was in a state of extreme disrepair and out of a faux concern for their well being, but really just this isn't the image of East Hampden that we want to uphold and we need to get in there. They started finding ways to basically raze it to the ground. And that was basically where Leigh and then her sister Jackie stepped in to offer their support and their financial support, their just compassion around the situation and do what they could to allow them to keep living there. But this moment of the raids kind of coincided with this moment. Yes, this New York magazine cover story which brought an awareness to the greater public about not just who they were, but their connection to Jackie, which was what made it interesting enough for New York magazine to say, let's make this a cover story. It was also, by total happenstance, it was like the writer of that story had a house nearby and her daughter had found some rabbits and was like, there's all these cats around that house, which she called the witch house. Maybe we should go over and see if they'll take the rabbit. And the writer, Gail, sees this woman approaching in a headscarf and goes like, wait, I think I know her. There's something familiar about her. And comes to find the reason she looks familiar is that she is related to Jackie Kennedy, who everyone at that moment in time knew what she looked like. So I guess I brought that up to say it's very hard to separate the sort of scandal or tabloid fodder that was just the Grey Gardens house and the woman living in it. From the Emergence of Grey Gardens, the film. The film is 1975. Right. And this cover story is a few years prior. So there is this growing awareness and interest, maybe morbid curiosity about who is inhabiting this space. How did they get there?

[Lyra Smith]

So in that summer, are you seeing the house before the cleanup or is that still after the cleanup?

[Olivia Aylmer]

What it's documenting is Leigh coming to try to support that process. So I believe. I don't know the exact timeline, but let's say it's a few months after there are these threats for the house to be taken from them. And so I don't know if you both have Seen it. It is available, I think, on Sundance channel, on YouTube, for anyone who hasn't. But you see these really tender moments. Just talking to her aunt and her cousin and trying to say, okay, maybe we should put all of the really delicate and expensive porcelain in storage. Cause it might get stolen. Or, let's have these people come up and clean. Like, she's really trying to help them through this moment where they just feel like they're losing all of their privacy. And, you know, it's an uncomfortable, I think, transitional moment. But what's also happening is that a camera for the first time is being turned on, little Edie in particular, and she's going, wait, I've been waiting for this moment my whole life, perhaps. And so there's this. Yeah, really. I don't know if magical is the word, but something's happening. Something really interesting is happening where they are becoming aware of people's awareness of them. And rather than wanting to shut the doors and say, okay, actually, we want to be even more private. They're like, wait, we're having a nice time. People are taking an interest in us, and maybe we should keep the door open. And they do.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. And that is so interesting because even Lee said it took weeks for them to open the door for her when she first tried to go out there. So they reached a point where they seem to have a desire to be presented publicly.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I think that started to happen. Yeah. But there was a skepticism, certainly, for, you know, do these people actually want to help us? Do they really care about us? Or are they just trying to take away our home, the place, you know, especially for Big Edie? Like, she had been living there at that point since, I want to say, the 20s. Like, her husband, Felan Beale, had purchased it, and they had lived there together, and then they separated, and he eventually served her divorce papers, and that was it. But that was where she had put down her roots and welcomed her daughter back. And I think they had this really deep connection to it. And to lose it would have meant losing a sense of identity and any sort of groundedness which they were losing the longer that they stayed there without many guests. Yeah.

[George Severis]

Along those lines, walk us through just abridged history of the relationship with the house. So how long had they been living there? How long were they there, just the two of them? I know that little Edie at some point was gone, and then she came back. What led to what we actually see in the documentary?

[Olivia Aylmer]

Yeah, it's a good question, because the documentary doesn't really get into the backstory, it opens with some headlines, so you have a sense again of this growing public awareness, but it doesn't really tell you how they got there. So, basically, in 1917, Big Edie married this lawyer financier named Phelan Beale, who had worked at her father's law firm, Bouvier and Beale. They had this really grand wedding ceremony at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Something like 2,500 people attended. You do see in the film her Wedding Portrait, which is quite striking, but. So they were married. They lived on Madison Avenue, which is actually now the site of the Carlisle Hotel. They lived at that site for a while. And then in 1923, Phelan purchased the Grey Gardens mansion in East Hampton, Right. A block from the ocean. The couple separated in 1931, but Big Edie was able to keep the Great Gardens house. And, you know, she had two sons as well, Adelaide's brothers. They had gone off to and serving in World War II and kind of had families of their own. So they were really nowhere to be found in 1952. That summer, little Edie had spent a few years in Manhattan and was trying to make it as a dancer, performer, an actor, was trying to kind of get her big break, and it just wasn't happening. And I think the narrative around that shifts depending on who's talking about it. But she went to live with her mother and to. Ostensibly because, you know, her mother had gotten cats. So it was really. It was all about the cats. Like, she had to come back and help take care of them. And so that sort of is the pivot point, right. 1952, and then they are there into the early 70s. I was also struck, just in revisiting all of this history, that Biggie died in 1977. So two years after Grey Gardens actually premieres and is out in the world, she's not with us for that much longer. And just to put a finer point on the history of the house, when Big Edie dies, Little Edie does go on to sell the house, and she actually sells it to Ben Bradley, who's the former executive editor of the Washington Post, and his wife, the journalist Sally Quinn. So it ends up kind of being passed into new hands, but still in this sort of media and culture bubble, which is quite interesting. I mean, really, people were describing it as a haunted house in the 70s, but now I can't even imagine. Maybe because it's been so refurbished, the ghosts have left, but it's.

[Lyra Smith]

Yeah. And they really cared for the house. They, you know, Sally Quinn, they Made sure to sell to somebody that was going to care for the home and not just raise it.

[Olivia Aylmer]

It.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And part of the terms was that they weren't allowed to raise it. They could renovate it, but they could not completely tear it down.

[Olivia Aylmer]

That's correct.

[George Severis]

And part of the mythology of all of this is that these are formerly wealthy people that are now living in squalor. And the fact that they are adjacent to the Kennedys, of course, adds to the sort of desire to gawk at them and be like, can you believe this is happening? In terms of purely the money. Am I right to say that Jackie's father, Blackjack Bouvier, was somehow in charge of their inheritance, and then it did not make its way to them, and so all they had was this house.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I think that part of what happened with Jackie's father was like the stock market crash. I mean, I think he had some financial troubles of his own. So that inheritance was shrinking as it was, and then there was very little of it left. And they started to receive, like, a small allowance. I want to say it was like 3,500 a year. But it was going from Big Edie being married to a wealthy man and having what seemed like a life of comfort ahead of her to also his leaving. And I think that rupture in their relationship, suddenly she is a single mom now, and she wasn't working. Like, she wasn't bringing in her own money. So she was reliant on family and the men in her life to support.

[Lyra Smith]

I do think, from what I've been reading, that has, like, totally changed my perspective of Big Edie is that she was very young when she got married, and he was 14 years older, and she really wanted to be a professional singer. And she continued to pursue that, Dre, the entire time she was married. And that is what led to their separation. And the way they don't explain it in the documentary sounds more like, oh, he left her and he married somebody else, but there's two decades worth of that separation occurring before he actually marries someone else. And that is just wild to me because as a teenager watching it, I didn't really pay much attention to Big Edie. I was just hypnotized by Little Edie.

[George Severis]

That's so funny. I also, this time around, was really struck by Big Edie. I have this memory of her as, you know, kind of like a quote, unquote, crazy lady. And then this time around, I found her so wise. When she talks about the value of looking back versus looking forward, she just has These lines where she cuts right to the chase as Little Edie is still kind of half living in a dream world and living this still very childlike existence. Obviously, they both have their flaws, but this time around, I came out with quite a bit of respect for Big Edie.

[Olivia Aylmer]

That's a really good point. And also I think there is the aspect of the kind of temporality of the way the film is shot. It feels like it's happening in this perpetual present where it could just be one long day into night. But actually, I think the footage was shot over the course of six weeks. And to your earlier question about what kind of documentary was this and how was it received? They're not trying to tell the full story of what led to this state of affairs, which you just went into a bit. Lyra. It is the portrait, and it's in this style that they were kind of pioneers of which they called cinema verite or direct. Direct film. Trying to capture what they were seeing before them. Not trying to set it up too much, but just letting these people tell us who they are. And I think that's where some of the controversy around. Was this just tabloid fodder or was it sensationalized or exploitative? Like, that's where those questions arose. But, yeah, there was a choice in saying, we want these women to be kind of letting us into their world. They didn't invite themselves in like they were invited in. They built enough trust for that door to be open to them.

[George Severis]

Yeah, the idea of a perpetual present is so apt. And I think that's also part of what makes it so eerie is that part of the. On an existential level, part of them, like, leaving the house to be as is and never cleaning is basically. It's like hitting pause. It's like, whatever is happening now, this is it. We are not making an effort to change it in any way. We are just like, this is. Is sort of. It's almost like this is the. This is the conclusion. We have arrived where we are meant to be. And it's basically this until the end. And it's striking the things that are not mentioned, like the squalor of the house is never directly mentioned by either of them, except for one moment, which I thought was so interesting, where they're having people over for dinner and Big Edie says, like, I thought you said you were going to clean. Which is such a fascinating thing coming out of her. Because if anything, she's the, you know, quote unquote, messier one. I mean, her bed is famously filled with Cats and old newspapers and stains. So it's so funny to the one time they address the messiness for her to say, I thought you were going to clean. And then the other thing that's never really mentioned, they mention their family. But the Bouvier and Kennedy connections are not, like, drilled into you as much as you would think they would be. And it's funny because Carol Radswell is almost like a contemporary version of this, where she. She doesn't mention her Kennedy connection as much in the Real Housewives. She sort of, like, lets you infer it. So there's something almost classy about it, like they're not being loud about their famous connections. I mean, I guess there's some name dropping when it comes to the marriage proposals.

[Lyra Smith]

That is like telling the story.

[George Severis]

That's true.

[Lyra Smith]

And they're having this fight. And within the fight, Big Edie starts dropping the names as examples of, like, you're not really telling the whole story there. Little Eden.

[George Severis]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Lyra Smith]

In the.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

New podcast Hell in Heaven. Two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder not once.

[Olivia Aylmer]

People went wild.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Not twice, twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality.

[George Severis]

They lose it. They actually lose.

[Olivia Aylmer]

They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.

[Lyra Smith]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Olivia Aylmer]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Lyra Smith]

What?

[George Severis]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Olivia Aylmer]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Olivia Aylmer]

All I know is what I've been.

[Ed Helms]

Told and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I'm telling you, we know quintessential killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[George Severis]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I did not know her and I.

[Lyra Smith]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

They literally made me say that I.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Olivia Aylmer]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.

[Elena Sada]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the legion of Christ.

[Olivia Aylmer]

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's the story of how I learned.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

To hide, to cry, to survive, and.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Eventually how I got out.

[Elena Sada]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Segred Scandal, the many secrets of martial master as part of the My Cultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

So in terms of how it was received as a documentary. Obviously there is inevitably going to be a debate around whether it is exploitative versus delivering on the promise of cinema verite and just like telling a story on the subject's own terms. So what is your interpretation of how that debate happened when it was released and then how it evolved over the 50 years since then?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I'm not at all surprised that that debate was happening, especially because, as we said, now we can look at it and with our familiarity with reality television and that style of seeing people on screen, it doesn't seem that shocking or strange to us. Like how these women are coming across in some ways any sense of like, are they crazy? It's like, are so reminiscent of so many people we watch on TV every day now. But I think at the time there was something really unfamiliar about what people were witnessing and the Kennedy connection only exacerbated that. And I would like to get into that a little more in a moment, but I think that it's a fair question to raise always, like what is the agency of the subjects in any sort of portrayal or documentation. But I think what cuts through that debate is the way in which Little Edie in particular, these were women who couldn't stop themselves from performing. They were performers, they were stars. And if we didn't have Grey Gardens, if that original footage had been shelved and Grey Gardens never came to be, the fact that we wouldn't know them, that to me seems the bigger heartbreak, disappointment. I think that one thing that revisiting all of this inspired me to do was to learn more about whether Little Edie had been at the premiere or whether they had gotten to see the final film and what they thought about it. And I was really heartened to discover that not only did Little Edie attend the original New York Film Festival premiere in October of 1975, but she received a. And there's this detail of her throwing flowers into the crowd. Like she almost couldn't believe what was happening. And then when she did, it was like that star power turned right on. And she was like, this is my moment. Like this is what I've been waiting for. And it really delights me just to know that she knew that she was appreciated and seen, even if all this controversy is still valid to talk about. And it's unsurprising.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And she also did a short lived cabaret show of some sort afterwards because there was interest in her as a character. And so she did attempt to do a stage show afterwards. It's a real testament to her on screen charisma that regardless of what the accusations of exploitation are, you just come out of it with such a deep love for her as a character.

[Lyra Smith]

And her quotes, I mean, when I watched it as a teenager, a lot of the heavier stuff, I will say went over my head. And I think partially because of what you were saying, how they're not talking about the past, this is them today, really, with no narration, there's no music, just presented plainly. And as a teenager, I really hooked on to the parts of little Edie when she talks about freedom, when she talks about not wanting to get married and her never ending love of herself. And there's like a moment where she says to her mom, I can do anything. I know that I can do anything now as an adult watching. And it's heartbreaking because she's sitting in this room that is like the one room of the house that is. They can. Yeah.

[George Severis]

And that coexists exactly what you're describing, Lyra. How in her own way, liberated she is, coexists with the fact that she also is just literally trapped. She both completely owns who she is, but also is constantly blaming others for the things she doesn't have. And so I think this could serve as an argument against the idea that she's being exploited, is that she actually is allowed to be a very complex figure on camera. And I think she could so easily have been just caricatured. But the quotes that you get from her actually paint a pretty complicated picture.

[Olivia Aylmer]

But, you know, and we are saying that the film doesn't really bring in the past, or at least the filmmakers don't in terms of how they're contextualizing it. But I think we should be really clear that the past is constantly bumping up against the present in their surroundings, in these photographs, in their memories. Right. That's where we're getting the glimpse into the past. And little Edie, this is a woman who is being told most of her young adult and teenage life. She's so beautiful. She has so much promise and potential. And all these wealthy men, they talk about this. There are these marriage offers that were made millionaires. She was wanted, she was desired. And then she gets a little older. She's a woman in her mid-50s at the time that the film emerges. And it must have felt really frustrating to not be taken seriously or given the same validation for who she was, the woman she was growing into, who was just as fabulous, probably even more, because now her personality is sort of like on display, and she's not Playing by whatever rules she was brought up with. And so I think to bring that context in as well, like, she is a woman without a husband or a partner. She's being supported by her mother, and that is part of what's trapping her there. But it's also just her unwillingness to accept the path that was clearly laid out for her and that she very well could have walked.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about all the stories of marriage proposals and the futures that could have been. Not to fact check Little Edie in real time, but I did wonder how much of it was just really wonderful storytelling. Do you have any idea of which parts are, you know, a little bit more flowery?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I wish I had a little more to say about it, but I honestly, I think I was so taken with her stories of, like, well, this one almost asked me to marry him, but I turned him down. Or this one intrigued me, but it wasn't right that I just didn't even take the next step to go, like, did those proposals actually happen? I was on that one piece. I was kind of buying what she was selling, and I think we should. We should find out.

[George Severis]

I kind of agree.

[Olivia Aylmer]

But then part of it is, like, you know, yeah, I have no doubt. I just want to kind of guttural, intuitive level. I have no doubt that she was sought after. I mean, you see the photos of her modeling, and I think the piece that I feel a little more like, hmm, skeptical about is what happened in New York, like, that trajectory of trying to have this breakthrough. Is she charismatic? Is there this, like, star power presence to just, like, flying off the screen? Yes. But was she talented in a way that would have have built, like, a lasting career on stage? I don't know. Like, in some ways, I'm like, yeah, what were the expectations then? And how was she showing up in those auditions that she speaks of? And she does have a very quirky way of being in personality that probably just wasn't always aligning with more of the presence that Ali Radwell or a Jackie was bringing. This is a good juncture to say that Little Edie is not the only one who had some dreams deferred of being a working, successful actor performer. Lee made a stage appearance. She was in a film called Laura. These efforts were panned by critics pretty unambiguously. There is a great clip I recommend everyone watch on YouTube of Lee with Truman Capote, the writer, who is a friend and supporter. And she is receiving some pretty nasty questions from a reporter who's saying, do you think the only reason you got these opportunities is because you're Jackie's sister? Or why are you still trying this? Didn't you hear the critics? Like, you're not good. That's sort of the tone of the interview. And she's just handling it very elegant, kind of dod, not even dodging, just sort of. They are rolling right off of her. She's not engaging with it. It's like she's above it all. And I think that you can tell, watching little Edie, that she wouldn't have handled those questions in the same way. She would have been like, what do you mean? I've got something, I can do anything. It was more, if anything, the biggest difference between them is like, a lack of media training and a lack of interest in being perceived in that way. Leigh and Jackie also had their own very, very fair share of major heartbreak, loss, grief, haunting life experiences that they had to carry with them along with disappointment, failed auditions, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it's so easy to say that these are polar opposite women and that that's where the tension lies. But I think the tension is actually in how similar they really are. And with a few different choices, they might have been in a very similar place.

[Lyra Smith]

Also in the fact that all three of them, them were raised to marry well. I mean, that was the messaging that they got, was, regardless of who you are or what you achieve, in order to have the support that you will need in life, your first goal needs to be marrying well. And yeah, Jackie and Lee took that very seriously, or Jackie, at least, I would say, and dede didn't.

[Olivia Aylmer]

It seems that's true, except that Lee went through two divorces. Right. This is a woman who is divorced twice. I mean, when she is at Gray Gardens, the summer of 1972, she's there with her lover, her boyfriend, Peter Beard. They're not married. So what's more scandalous, not following the safe path and having a husband or having multiple lovers and partners and divorces in a lifetime, it's not so neat, is what I'm coming to after revisiting all of this.

[George Severis]

Oh, completely. It's easy to look at little Eden lady without any context and be like, why is she wearing a cardigan as a skirt? She looks a complete mess. But in fact, it's the same impulse that Jackie has when she looks really fabulous on camera. She has a personal sense of fashion, and sometimes it's really incredible. And she is using what she has at her disposal, which is way less wealth and Way less money and way less access to designer clothes than Jackie has. But despite the fact that she's literally surrounded by a cat shit, every time she's on camera, she makes sure to have her hair, head covered. She's making very sort of interesting choices. There's one scene where she has two small scarves tied around her ankles, which is something I had never seen before. It's just so clearly coming from a mind that is thinking in terms of aesthetics and thinking in terms of combining different patterns and fabrics and whatever. It's obviously a different, quote, unquote, poise, but it is poise nonetheless. It is kind of dressing yourself up in a way, way that elevates you compared to your surroundings. And your surroundings can be either tragic in the literal sense, or they can be tragic in the more spiritual sense of having gone through so much trauma and whatever. So it is, you know, not to take it in a completely different direction. But that also is, I think, very clearly what makes both the wealthier Bouviers and these Bouviers into such gay icons, because they become these women who have overcome tragedy and overcome trauma while looking good for the camera.

[Lyra Smith]

It also reminded me of Paris's burning every time I saw Little Edie come out in a costume. That was her words.

[George Severis]

I mean, the relationship with Grey Gardens and drag is one of the most lasting influences that the film has had. Literally, when I went to see it in San Francisco, it was introduced by a drag queen. Funnily enough, Pink Flamingos came out two years before Grey Gardens did. And there is this scene of the mom being in bed in, like, a sort of Grey Gardens esque environment along with the daughter. So John Waters must have had some sort of, you know.

[Lyra Smith]

Oh, he. Yeah, he references them in Hairspray.

[Olivia Aylmer]

These are women who are, like, dressing for. Or at least Little Edie is dressing for the life she wants, not for the surroundings she has. And I think the biggest difference that I see in their sartorial approach is Jackie and Little Edie. I think Jackie is often presenting herself in a way that she thinks the public expects of her or that the camera kind of wants her to appear. And Little Edie is dressing a way that, like, the camera can't turn away from her. And this is a film that in some ways, just had to exist. Once there were cameras in that space, a film was happening. Whether or not, I mean, they did agree to it, right? That's important to say, but it was happening either way.

[Lyra Smith]

Did Jackie O ever speak publicly about the documentary after it was released.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Oh, that's a really good question. I actually wish I looked into that and I didn't. Let's look it up. I would be really curious. I think that Little Edie and Big Edie, I was more interested in whether they had seen it and gotten to understand how it was being received. But Lee, I'm sure, felt a little again, that footage was hidden for many years and I think she wanted it to be her movie. And it very much did not turn out to be her movie. And if any of you all end up watching that summer, I think you'll just see, like, she's so sweet and tender on screen. And that's lovely to see, but she's not captivating. I don't think we would be talking about it on a podcast in 2025, frankly.

[George Severis]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Lyra Smith]

In the.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

New podcast, Hell in Heaven. Two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder not once. People went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it.

[George Severis]

They actually lose it.

[Olivia Aylmer]

They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.

[Lyra Smith]

32 Lost Nuclear Power Weapons.

[Olivia Aylmer]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Lyra Smith]

What?

[George Severis]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Olivia Aylmer]

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Olivia Aylmer]

All I know is what I've been saying told and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[George Severis]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I did not know her and I.

[Lyra Smith]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Burn or any of that other stuff that y'.

[Elena Sada]

All.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

They literally made me say that I.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Olivia Aylmer]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Elena Sada]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Olivia Aylmer]

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

To hide, to cry, to survive, and.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Eventually how I got out.

[Elena Sada]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Lyra Smith]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

This movie was a phenomenon in its own right. It was both critically acclaimed and controversial. It was accused of being exploitative while also immediately becoming iconic. It popularized these two women who then became on screen legends in Their own right. It has become a TV movie, as you said, with Jessica Lange and Drew Barrymore. It has become a musical that was nominated for 10 Tonys. It was more recently parodied by Fred Armisen and Bill Hader in documentary now where they play versions of Big Edie and Little Edie. It's been on RuPaul's Drag Race, endless drag performances that have been influenced by it. What do you think accounts for its lasting power?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I think that to me, this is like a fun house mirror of a film. And it is a litmus test whenever you encounter it. If you are a teenager watching it for the first time, like you're talking about lyra or a 30 something woman at a particular place in her career, unmarried or married, wherever you are going to take something a little different from this film, different quotes are going to stick in your mind. Whether you experience disgust, repulsion, pity. Whether you're watching them and going like, this is unbelievable. These women have such charm and charisma and I can't get enough. You're feeling sympathy. Whatever you're feeling, it just, I think it really brings up a lot of strong emotions in people. And even if you don't necessarily have your own version of an eccentric grandma and aunt living on Long island, there's family dynamics that are so universal playing out here. One thing I want to mention that Julia Fox brought up in her remarks on Sunday was the ways in which they're having these catty moments or like backtalking about each other. But the moment that one person leaves the room, there'll be this like, sweetness or Big Edie being like, actually, you know, she's always had a better voice than me, even though she's just been telling her to stop singing. There's so much that people can relate to in their own family and friend dynamics, and I think it's. We're seeing such a heightened version of it. And yet there's something really familiar in these little interactions of like, yeah, if I had made a different decision, if I hadn't decided to move back in with my parents that one year, if I hadn't ultimately decided not to go to the audition, what would my life be? And there's this poetry, like an internal poetry to the film that I think is why I really do think we'll be watching it for the next 50 years and the 50 years after that. And to me, that is the legacy. It's the fact that their legend was born on screen through this movie, but it's one that keeps keeps finding People. And to me, that's the sign. Those are my favorite pop cultural time capsules are things that you are constantly finding something new in. Yeah.

[George Severis]

And it almost exists out of place and time in its own way. Like, it really is just the two of them because the house is so, you know, kind of funky. There's nothing tying it to a specific time period. It's not like the furniture is specifically 70s or their fashion is specifically 70s. Like, it is almost like they are already fictional characters living in a fairy tale tale. Which is, in fact, why the scene of the guests coming for dinner is so shocking, because they suddenly have this brief interaction with the outside world. I'm wondering, do you have any moments that you keep coming back to? Do you have, like, a favorite quote or something that when you first watched it, you responded to?

[Olivia Aylmer]

There's so much. And I think you alluded to a couple of these moments, Lyra. I did have to take note of the moment about freedom where little Edie's like, I like freedom. And her mom's like, well, you can't get it, darling. You're being supported. Can't get any freedom when you're being supported. And they go back and forth about this, and little Evie winds up going, you know, I think you're not free when you're not being supported. It's awful both ways. Like these truthful little gems. You know, there is the moment with little Eve reading the astrology book with a magnifying glass and talking about, if I could just find that Libran husband. Like, I just need a little order in my life. Yeah. I think that it's the ways in which they're both so aware of that camera and yet unselfconsciously just rattling off these. What did you call them? Tiktoks. I'm not really on TikTok.

[Lyra Smith]

Oh, vocal stims as well.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Stims. Yeah. They're queens of vocal stims. Before that was even a thing.

[George Severis]

Yeah. The magnifying glass I'm glad you brought up because the use of the magnifying glass and the binoculars, pretty much because she refuses to get glasses, but she still needs to see. So she literally uses binoculars for seeing far and a magnifying glass for seeing close. It is one of the most incredible. It also is, in its own way, almost a fashion statement. It is her version of glasses. There is something fabulous about her being on a scale and using binoculars to look at the number on the scale and then being like, oh, my God, it's up to 145.

[Olivia Aylmer]

The naming of that number, too. I think the number on the scale is akin to the moment in Materialist where she reveals she's making $80,000 and people lost their minds.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Speaking of lines about freedom, because I would say, like, freedom is one of the main themes of the film. And also sort of free will and choices is another one. Like, there's so much reminiscing about potential futures that were thwarted because someone didn't or did make a choice. And their current existence is almost like a metaphor for all these things. And one moment that I truly could not believe was inscripted, which I wrote down and is, you know, famously, a cat pees behind a portrait in the house, and Big Edie says, you know, cat's going to the bathroom right behind my portrait. And Little Edie says, God, isn't that awful? And then Big Edie says, no, I'm glad he is. I'm glad somebody's doing something he wanted to do, which is like, that's. I mean, that is, like, so poetic. How do you even come up with that on the spot?

[Olivia Aylmer]

I know, I know.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, it's a dig at Little Edie.

[George Severis]

Well, of course.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Course I know.

[Lyra Smith]

I feel like that must be sitting on top of her head at all times. Every time Little Edie starts complaining, she's like, these were all your choices.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Well, it is embodying that kind of codependent love that goes so far as to spoil and turn into a sort of. It's never hate, but it is like they know each other so well. It's hard to know where Big Edie begins in Little Edie end sometimes. And you hear this in, like I said up top, it is a film in which it's almost like one long monologue where it's voices talking over each other, interrupting each other, disagreeing, agreeing, suddenly being on the same page, suddenly having two wildly different narratives. Like, there's this unstoppable force of ideas and voices colliding. You can only really have that with someone that you deeply know well on such an intimate level.

[George Severis]

Were there other moments at the 50th anniversary screen that stuck out?

[Olivia Aylmer]

Oh, yeah.

[George Severis]

I mean, I'm sure the people watching was great. Usually I'm sort of against audience Q&As, but with this one, I would love for everyone to go around the room and say what their relationship to the movie was. Was there anything else sort of memorable that you want to share?

[Olivia Aylmer]

Absolutely. Well, so it needs to be said that Jerry Torrey was in the crowd the Marble Faun himself.

[George Severis]

Wow.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Jerry Torrey being kind of a runaway who somehow ended up at their home taking care of it. And as. As far as little Edie was concerned, like, falling in love with her and he was gonna be the X proposal coming, and she was scared about that. But, yeah, he's a sculptor, he's an artist, he's still with us. And he was in that crowd, which is truly remarkable. And there were also so many people, I wanna say at least 50 hands raised, seeing it for the first time ever. Which, how special to see it on the big screen with, you know, Ms. Julia Fox there too. But these two younger women behind me as we were leaving were just like, God, I'm so glad that I am alive in this era, because if I had been living them living, then they would have been calling me a spinster. They just could not believe how far in. In at least that regard, how much more acceptable it seems to be to be unmarried in your 30s, for example.

[Lyra Smith]

Well, and it's being unmarried, but it's also not having the ability presented to you at any point, not having the opportunity to support yourself financially. And this is like their budding of up against the very end of that, really. I think that starting at that time, no one in the general population was raising their daughters to never work and just marry, you know, to support them, to live, to be able to live in a home and eat food. But this is really the tail end of, you know, I think of sense and sensibility as those girls are stuck. They're truly, truly stuck until they get married and they can't support themselves by law. And then this is really the very, very end bookend of that being a life that would have been presented as the only option to girls when they were born.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I don't know if women watching it at the time would have come away being like, that is a desirable life. And I wish I was them. But I do think it was resonating in ways that are much clearer to us now. But at the time, it was just a feeling of they've got something that maybe actually want in my life. I will say one more quick anecdote from Sunday. So Rebecca Maisels, as I said, was there. She is the daughter of one of the filmmakers, Albert, and she read a note that he had written to little edie in the 90s, and he said that he had been at a dinner party with this woman who was like, grey Gardens is my favorite movie of all time. You know, I remember seeing it at the Paris, and this Woman went on to describe that while she was in the screening, there was someone sitting a few seats away from her who was just so engrossed, leaning forward, could not take her eyes off of them. And this woman realized that woman was Greta Garbo. So Greta Garbo was sitting in the Paris at some point in time watching Grey Gardens and going, they've got something. I can't stop looking. And I just find that beautiful. I really do think that in some ways, at least for little Edie, a version of her dreams came true. It is certainly not the one that she thought she wanted, but she is regarded as a fashion icon, as an independent spirit and thinker. And her mother. Mother, Well, I don't know. I would see. I don't know if I would apply the same. Is her mother an independent thinker? No, but she's incredible at getting in little one liners. They both got an incredible legacy and that makes me feel really happy.

[George Severis]

And you know, if anyone wants to see what the house looks like now, it has been renovated head to toe and there was just a New York mag piece about it. And then there's a YouTube tour of looks completely unrecognizable, but it's still there.

[Lyra Smith]

I was wondering if they had spoken at all about Muffy Meyer or Ellen Hobby.

[Olivia Aylmer]

No, they didn't. And I am really glad that you mentioned because these were the two other filmmakers involved in this production who really have not gotten their credit for it. And I would love to learn more about them and what they went on to make. So thank you for bringing them into the room with us. Nope, they were not mentioned one time on Sunday and that is a huge oversight where as far as I know, they were not mentioned, but they were certainly a significant part of making this happen.

[George Severis]

Can you remind us what Andy Warhol's relationship with all of this was? Because he's in the other documentary that summer, which I keep. It's difficult in conversation to say that Summer because it doesn't sound like a title, but the documentary is called that Summer. So Andy Warhol was in that and he was involved. So how did that work out?

[Olivia Aylmer]

So I think that he was friends with Peter Beard, the photographer who was dating Lee at that time. And I'm sure Leigh was friendly with him as well. They were a part of this group of Studio 54 people who were coming to East Hampton in the summer, spending time there and making art there. So I'll say that Andy Warhol was also credited as shooting some of the footage from that summer of 1972, along with the filmmaker Jonas Mekis. So, you know, there were incredible artists who were spending time in East Hampton, and he was one of them. And so he was kind of a part of that crew.

[Lyra Smith]

And I remember reading something about him going to her cabaret show, being in the front row every night.

[Olivia Aylmer]

I need to look into this cabaret show. Is there any footage of this?

[George Severis]

I know the cabaret show. It, unfortunately, it was widely panned. And even it's funny. Like, Hilton als wrote the essay for the Criterion release of Grey Gardens, and he's obviously being so incredibly effusive about his love for the Beals and everything. And the one negative thing he says is about the cabaret show. Even someone who truly appreciates camp could not find something salvageable about the cabaret show.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Listen, these were resilient women, as little Ed calls herself. She was a staunch character, and she says, s t a u n c h staunch. So one pan was not going to get her down. I think if we're going to take anything from this, it's. It's that, like, let the pans come, let the pans fall where they may and carry on.

[George Severis]

I think that's a great place to end. Olivia, thank you so much for chatting with us about Grey Gardens, both of us. I think when we first started doing this podcast, this was one of the episodes we couldn't wait for. You know, so much of what we cover is so truly tragic and includes literal murder and assassinations. And so we just, like, couldn't wait to talk about genuinely one of our favorite movies. And, you know, maybe next time we'll have you on with Julia Fox.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Have her on. Oh, truly. I mean, there could be a part two to this. I think the amount of artists who have been shaped by this film is countless. And the fact that I got to talk about it, I feel immensely lucky. I do think that they had something to do with this as well, because your invitation came. I am not exaggerating near hours after saying RSVP to this 50th anniversary screening. So something's in the air. Something's being behind the scenes. Yeah, they wanted this conversation to happen, and I'm really glad I got to talk to you guys. Thank you so much.

[George Severis]

Thank you so much.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Thank you.

[Lyra Smith]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Next week, we're looking at the life of Lee Harvey Oswald.

[Lyra Smith]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Lyra Smith, and George Severis.

[George Severis]

Research by Dave Roos and Austin Thompson.

[Lyra Smith]

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

[George Severis]

Edited by Graham Gibson and mixed by Doug Bain. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle. United States of Kennedy is a production of I iheart Podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy. Every week.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times. It starts with a dream, a nature reserve and a spectacular new home. But little by little, they lose it.

[Olivia Aylmer]

They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu. Every single episode.

[Lyra Smith]

32 lost nuclear weapons.

[Olivia Aylmer]

You're like, wait, stop.

[Lyra Smith]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna, Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Olivia Aylmer]

America, y' all better wake the hell up.

[Ed Helms]

Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the I Heart Radio Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Sacred Scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

When I first joined the Legion of.

[Olivia Aylmer]

Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Martial Marcel, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

[Ed Helms]

Surviving meant hiding.

[George Severis]

Escaping. Took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets.

[George Severis]

Of Martial Massiel on the iHeartRadio app.

[Ed Helms]

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lyra Smith]

This is an iHeart podcast.