Evan Ratliff (2:04)

Listen to the Psychology podcast on the.

Dan O'Sullivan (2:06)

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Lyra Smith (2:20)

Hey, it's Lyra. What do you know about Jimmy Hoffa?

Evan Ratliff (2:22)

There have been several well known movies made about him and I feel like.

Dan O'Sullivan (2:27)

I've heard about Jimmy Hoffa my entire life because he's associated with the Teamsters and the MAF and JFK in some weird way and a bunch of other Conspiracy theories.

George Severis (2:47)

I'm George Severis. I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about Bobby Kennedy and his pursuit of Jimmy Hoffa.

Lyra Smith (3:04)

Bobby Kennedy was, of course, the original rfk, meaning RFK Jr's father for all our younger listeners. And as a Senator and as JFK's Attorney General, one of his signature causes was taking on organized crime. At one point, Bobby bragged about the fact that prosecutions for racketeering by his justice department rose by 300% and convictions of organized criminals grew by 350%.

George Severis (3:31)

And Bobby's enemy number one was Jimmy Hoffa.

Lyra Smith (3:34)

Jimmy Hoffa was a major figure in the international brotherhood of Teamsters and eventually rose through the ranks to be the President. He was also quite publicly in bed with the Mob. He used $250 million in pension funds to curry favor with the Mafia and make a profit for himself. He also once threatened to break both of Bobby's arms.

George Severis (3:54)

So the feud between Bobby Kennedy and Jimmy Hoffa was not just about politics. It was personal. And its aftermath haunted the Kennedys for years.

Lyra Smith (4:02)

This week, to help us unpack all of this, we're joined by Dan o', Sullivan, co host of the Outfit, a podcast about the Mafia and their surprising impact on how society works. Dan, thanks for joining us.

Dan O'Sullivan (4:14)

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lyra Smith (4:16)

I was wondering what got you into the Mafia history and how the Mafia history has impacted American history.

Dan O'Sullivan (4:26)

Thank you for that question. And it's such a polite way of saying, why are you so weird about this topic?

Lyra Smith (4:32)

Well, I think it's funny because it's like us with the Kennedys, right?

Dan O'Sullivan (4:37)

Yeah. No, it's probably for a lot of the same reasons you guys are so interested in the Kennedys, Right. That, you know. On my show, the Outfit with Alana Hope Levinson, our pitch is always, every week, what a mob story says about the hidden history of America. And that is how I view organized crime, that the history of organized crime in America is kind of this Rosetta Stone understanding a lot of things about it that are not commonly understood. The era we're going to talk about, to me is like, it's the golden era of the Mafia and of the height of its power and influence. I don't think organized crime's gone away. I think it's just changed since then. But this is sort of, to me, when we think of a Mafia Exercising power. This was the height of it.

George Severis (5:21)

And when we first wanted to talk about specifically the rivalry between RFK and Jimmy Hoffa, which we will absolutely get into. But when we were first talking off mic, you were saying, you know, I can talk more broadly about the relationship between the Kennedys and the Mafia. So, yeah, when you hear Kennedys and the mob, what comes to mind?

Dan O'Sullivan (5:37)

Well, I think for a lot of people it will be what we're going to talk about, right? RFK being a mob buster and all that, which I think is a little more complicated than that. But for a lot of people it's going to be Joseph Kennedy, the patriarch. And specifically the idea that he was a bootlegger, a rum runner. Now he was setting himself up towards the end of Prohibition to be a legal alcohol magnate and essentially buying low and selling high. I think people would be surprised by the amounts of business interest that Joseph Kennedy, you know, father of John Kennedy, father of Bobby Kennedy, had a Hollywood mogul heavily involved in, I think it was rko, had an affair for many years with Gloria Swanson. So his business interests ranged all over the world. And of course that he also had a ranging career. He was Ambassador to the UK prior to World War II, ardent supporter of appeasing Hitler. Not the finest moment, but essentially, as this kind of tycoon, he was very well sourced and had many contacts in the underworld at that time. That, for instance, he had what was at that time the largest office building in America, the Merchandise Mart in Chicago, still there. And that led to him forging ties not only to the political machine in Chicago, but also to the Mafia there.

George Severis (6:56)

And then how did that transfer to the next generation and to their political ambitions? I mean, you read one of the things that's sort of repeated as you read about Bobby's feud with Hoffa and Bobby's taking on the Mafia is that ironically, the Mafia quote, unquote, helped elect jfk. What does that mean?

Dan O'Sullivan (7:13)

So that would be a reference to what happened in 1960, which is the razor thin election between Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy. Obviously, John was not supposed to be the president. Right. It was Joe the pilot. But after he died, I mean, I don't know if your dads are like this. Mine is not that the next in line had to be President, but what that refers to is the razor tight margin and the accusation that Joseph Kennedy used his influence with the Mafia in particular in Chicago, where Illinois being a battlefield state at that time, to sway the election towards Kennedy to beat Nixon. And that, of course, the Mob would get something out of it. And there's a lot of controversy over whether that deal happened. I think it did. I would not have done that if I was the Mafia. Given what we're going to talk about in today's episode, and given that Richard Nixon surprisingly, also has some deep organized crime ties, the famous stories about graveyards full of voters and election shenanigans occurring in Chicago, which just tipped Illinois into the JFK column, I think are mostly true. And. And to talk about the emissary to that next generation, one of the main connections between organized crime and John F. Kennedy was Frank Sinatra, who was very close to both and at that time was a big Kennedy booster. They would have a falling out later, but Frank Sinatra was often used by organized crime as a kind of cutout to the legitimate world, and Frank Sinatra, being a mob groupie, was happy to play that role. So in 1960, when the election happens, it's all fun and games until he appoints Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General.

George Severis (8:53)

I think something we will run into a lot, and which we certainly did in trying to do research for this episode, is the inconsistency of all historical sources and all primary sources. So I'm wondering, you know, as someone who has thought a lot about this, how do you approach deciding what is the truth and what isn't when all these things are happening behind 15 closed doors? Everyone is intentionally sort of weaponizing misinformation in the press and privately to further their own narrative?

Dan O'Sullivan (9:22)

It's such a great question. I'm doing some research on some episodes about Al Capone coming up, and I'm realizing, oh, a bunch of things that even after a lot of study I thought were true are not true. So many myths get repeated and kind of reified into being the reality that are not true. Or you can trace them to one source. I mean, the J. Edgar Hoover wearing a dress thing that we've all heard. Right. What's the source of that? The source is actually in a quite good book by a journalist named Anthony Summers. But it's just one witness saying this. Right. I don't think it happened. Right. So that's a perfect example. Are there corroborating witnesses? Right. Are multiple people saying the same thing even though they're not in the same place? Right. Primary firsthand documents. Right. You know, FOIA documents from the FBI. Well, an FBI report is just an FBI special agent telexing it in, but that can be important corroboration. Right. So, you know, I always think of this when I see how easily. Misinformation spreads, you know, online. It's really hard. It's really, really hard. And you have to read a lot of stuff and I think develop also a muscle to say this doesn't sound as believable. And if you want to build up that muscle, read the book the Irishman is based on and just try to poke holes in it. That'll be a really good exercise because it won't be hard and anyone can do that.

Lyra Smith (10:47)

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

Elena Sada (10:57)

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

Dan O'Sullivan (11:15)

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

Elena Sada (11:28)

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the clothes and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell (11:56)

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

Dan O'Sullivan (12:33)

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family, and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice. To the right, I'm sorry. To the left, I love you.

Malcolm Gladwell (12:44)

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Evan Ratliff (12:56)

When news broke earlier this year that baby K.J. a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a Gripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'm Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to on crispr, the story of Jennifer Doudna was with Walter isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Dan O'Sullivan (13:30)

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles, and you name it. But what they find is not what they expected. Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said, yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years. Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand, and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown sting on the.

Lyra Smith (14:20)

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

George Severis (14:35)

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

Lyra Smith (14:38)

Okay, I do think we should get into who Jimmy Hoffa is. I had name recognition for him, but didn't know exactly what his story was. So who was Jimmy Hoffa?

Dan O'Sullivan (14:52)

Yeah, so James Hoffa would ascend to be the president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which originated as a union the latter half of the 19th century for carriage drivers. And, you know, obviously they didn't have trucks back then. And over time, it morphed into being truckers, both local truckers and long haul truckers, these kinds of people. But it also could be cab drivers. They tried to organize a lot of anything involving a truck. The name recognition is interesting in that he was one of the most famous people in the country. I think the Teamsters at its height had more union members than the largest union today has. Given the population change, that's quite a change. The union density was much higher. And part of the reason he's so well known is a union of truckers is incredibly powerful with strike threats and the threat of what they call secondary strikes. Right. So let's say, for instance, a longshoremen union goes on strike. They say they're not going to unload ships. If you get some scabs in there and the trucks keep picking it up, no problem. But if trucks won't come to the terminal either. Now you have a real problem. And that power he had, he wielded very mightily, was heavily politically connected. But as always, if a union is corrupted and it's powerful, the corrupt masters of that union can use that same power for their own enrichment. And that, unfortunately, is what was also happening with the Teamsters from an early point in Jimmy Hoffa's career.

Lyra Smith (16:23)

Yeah, I think that's the part that took me a few run throughs to understand is where's the line between Jimmy Hoffa's corruption and then just straight up organized crime?

Dan O'Sullivan (16:37)

That's a great question. I would defer to the journalist who knows more about Jimmy Hoffa than probably anyone else, a guy named Dan Maldea, who has been literally investigating the Jimmy Hoffa case for, I think, 51 years. He has a great substack, too, which I don't say that sentence often, but you can check that out. His view is that Jimmy Hoffa was essentially a racketeer himself, a gangster. That there's been some revisionism of Jimmy Hoffa. As you know, he got the 1964 Master Freight Agreement that was a huge national contract for truckers. But he was compromised from the beginning. He was ultimately hurting Teamsters. And as near as I can tell, the common explanation for when the mob enters Jimmy Hoffa's life is in 1941, his base of power was a local Teamsters local in Detroit. 299, there was an attempt by the newly formed CIO, later to become part of the AFL CIO, to launch what they call a raid on his locals members. A raid, in union parlance, is we're going to go in and try to steal your members, essentially for our union. To beat back this effort, he enlisted Mafia members in Detroit through an interesting source. He had a former girlfriend who was Sicilian Silvia Pagano, and she connected him to the mobsters. She was also mother to a guy named Chucky o', Brien, who would become, like Jimmy Hoffa's foster son and may have played an unwitting role in his disappearance. So he had very, very close ties to Italian Americans and to the Mafia from an early point in his career. And they never went away. I mean, this is the thing with the mob. If you let them in once they're there, forever, you can't get them out again. And so from that point on, mobsters had run of the place. As his national ambitions grew, this grew to include mobsters all over the country, because obviously he needs support from every geographic region of the country to supplant the prior president. And so they're treating it like an atm, basically, the Teamsters pension and benefits funds.

George Severis (18:48)

And how is this viewed both inside the unions and by the general public? I mean, obviously it hits a fever pitch when he's being, you know, interrogated on. On television. But before that, is it on some level an open secret? Is it something that there's a disappointment about within the unions? How is he seen?

Dan O'Sullivan (19:06)

So, first off, he's an absolute autocrat within the Teamsters union itself. Right. And this was not his creation entirely. This had been what previous presidents had built up. But the idea of union democracy, I mean, is a very important one that the Teamsters still have issues with, which is, all right, our members get to determine our leadership and what happens, you know, what the leadership does. And this was not really the case with the Teamsters, that if you were a dissident Teamster member or organizer or local leader, you could expect violence to be visited upon you. Right. So look, he was a very charismatic guy, obviously, and very talented and hardworking in a number of ways. So he did have a genuine base of support. But it was also aided by the fact that they would really brutally crush any dissent outside of the Teamsters. It's interesting, right, because a lot of union leaders who had more integrity and be less corrupt tended to be more left wing and progressive as well. So again, the environment at this time of anti communism, I think is an important context, right, that Jimmy Hoffa was not one of these guys playing footsie with the Communist Party or with more left wing causes. So that's good to a lot of what they call hard hats and politicians. And really the hearings targeting the Mafia. I mean, there's the kefauver hearings in 1950, 51, which kind of demolishes the lie that there is no Mafia. But the other hearings only really begin after all the red scare stuff kind of runs its course. They need a new Koch, basically, and that's what they turn to.

Lyra Smith (20:47)

So that brings us to rfk, because he is trying to make a name for himself. He is appointed to this subcommittee that was previously McCarthy's committee. It's now McClellan.

Dan O'Sullivan (21:02)

Yes.

Lyra Smith (21:03)

And they are focused on first Dave Beck.

Dan O'Sullivan (21:09)

Right.

Lyra Smith (21:10)

Or is it Beck and Hoffa? Are they aware of Hoffa at the same level as Dave Beck, who's the president?

Dan O'Sullivan (21:16)

It's really funny how this happens in the drug war. Today we have what's called the kingpin strategy. The idea is we take out a Chapo Guzman, right? Bring him back for trial, and it's going to disable his drug cartel, the Sinaloa cartel. And in fact, what happens every time is violence increases because all the lower rung guys are going to compete to control as much of it as they can. I'll talk a little bit about how Bobby Kennedy got there in a second. But Dave Beck was Jimmy Hoffa's predecessor as president of the Teamsters Union. And his main thing was he was more personally corrupt in a way than Hoffa was. Like, I think he died a millionaire. He was from the Pacific Northwest, not an area with much influence, mob activity, and he was kind of an easy target. He was so obviously financially corrupt that Kennedy focusing first on Beck did succeed in ultimately dislodging him. However, again, like with the kingpin strategy, what do you do? Well, Jimmy Hoffa was trying to replace Dave Beck, so you aided him immensely in rising to the national presidency. And Kennedy regretted that after the fact. You know, so what Bobby Kennedy's role was at this time, his brother was now a senator from Massachusetts. Bobby Kennedy, we have this conception of him as this sainted liberal hero. And it does not align with any look at his record that I'm aware of. If you read Rick Perlstein's Nixon Land, he is an absolutely cynical figure, even in his later iteration where he's a progressive icon. And at that time in particular, I mean, he was very upset that he had lost out on being chief Counsel to Joseph McCarthy on the Senate subcommittee. That job went to Roy Cohn, you know, Donald Trump's later attorney, one of the worst people ever, basically. So this is who Bobby Kennedy lost the job to. Right. And on the Rackets Committee, which forms later under an anti union senator from Arkansas, John McClell, then he gets the chief counsel job and like Roy Cohn with McCarthy, is basically given a lot of power and this is sometimes called the Rackets Committee, and he starts delving into the underworld, helps take out Dave Beck, and then his attention turns to Jimmy Hoffa, because the Teamsters just seem like a can of worms that has endless worms in it.

George Severis (23:42)

Yeah, it's funny, in terms of Bobby's political career, the two, I would say, big picture things that I came out of this research thinking is a. This entire crusade was so clearly a way to make his name rather than some sort of deep moral belief that he had. And then the second one, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it seems to me like he left the situation way worse than he found it because he first focused on Beck, when Hoffa was, quote, unquote, worse and then focused on Hoffa, and then Fitzsimmons came along and was miles worse. So if the goal was to get Mafia influence out of labor, and he absolutely failed at the end not to.

Dan O'Sullivan (24:22)

Jump ahead, but no, no, it's a great point. So he formed what was called a Get Hoffa squad. Right. And again, Hoffa really is a gangster. Right. So he is very skilled at evading. If you watch the hearings of him being questioned by Kennedy, which I highly recommend you can do, you can watch them all online. It's really funny because Kennedy will ask him a question about, do you recall this phone call? He'll play the phone call for him. After Hoffa says, you know, I don't really remember, and then he'll play it. He says, yeah, I have no recollection of that. And he just does this over and over again, and it makes Kennedy really mad. Kennedy is kind of out of his element in this stuff. He's right on like 90% of the stuff. But he's inept. And maybe he doesn't need to be skilled because it's really about raising his profile, raising his family's profile. John Kennedy is on that subcommittee at that time, so maybe it's just that. But the questioning is kind of pointless. He'll get angry and harangue the guys. He'll even taunt some of the Mafia guys. He'll do things like question a witness in private, find out they're going to take the Fifth a lot, and then put him on tv, even though they know that already, to make them look bad. So RFK himself, you know, it's probably not unlike what Jimmy Hoffa did where he thought he was embracing a good cause and he had to do it this way to do it. But it sort of corrupts the whole enterprise. It doesn't root out the Mafia. I know Dan Moldea, who I mentioned earlier, thinks highly of RFK's mob fighting stuff. I don't really. Again, he knows more about it than anyone on Earth. So take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. But you're right. I mean, mob control of the Teamsters actually gets worse after he finally does get Hoffa.

Lyra Smith (26:12)

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

Elena Sada (26:21)

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

Dan O'Sullivan (26:40)

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually, how I got out.

Elena Sada (26:52)

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred the Many Secrets of Marcial Maciel as part of the My Cultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get her podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell (27:21)

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

Dan O'Sullivan (27:57)

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

Malcolm Gladwell (28:08)

From revisionist history, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Evan Ratliff (28:20)

When news broke earlier this year that baby kj, a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a gripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'm Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to on crispr, the story of Jennifer Doudna with Walter isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion Stephen Curry comes shot ready. A powerful, never before seen look at the mindset that changed the game.

Malcolm Gladwell (29:05)

I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the.

Dan O'Sullivan (29:09)

Work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident.

Malcolm Gladwell (29:14)

I'm passing the ball to you.

Dan O'Sullivan (29:16)

Let's go.

Evan Ratliff (29:17)

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Lyra Smith (29:49)

And we're back with the United States of Kennedy.

George Severis (29:51)

So let's talk a little bit more about the actual hearing, because I'm trying to, of course, remember the timeline here. There were hearings that were before JFK was president, and then there were hearings when Bobby was Attorney General under jfk. So what are the kind of big media moments from those hearings? What do they accomplish? What are the lines everyone talks about? Famously, Hoffa uses the I don't recall tactic a lot, but he also doesn't plead the Fifth.

Dan O'Sullivan (30:18)

Yeah.

George Severis (30:19)

Which is a whole other thing. So where do we start and where do we end with those hearings?

Dan O'Sullivan (30:25)

So the McClellan committee, like I said, which is also known as the rackets committee, it's 10 senators sit on it. I think of them, only one or two could be even considered pro union. Other members on the committee include Barry Goldwater and Joseph McCarthy, who was very close with the Kennedy family. I think he dated one of their sisters, in fact. So again, not always fitting with the idea we have of them. Right. But I believe it starts in 1957. It first targets the Teamsters and Dave Beck. Dave Beck is dislodged. Hoffa replaces him. They continue with Hoffa. Interestingly, this committee goes after other unions, but it's not very successful with any other unions other than the Teamsters. And it's dissolved, in fact, in part because they can't really get anything together. And the labor establishment takes pains to distance themselves from Hoffa and the Teamsters. Teamsters are expelled from the American Federation of Labor in an effort that's led by Walter Reuther, the head of the United Auto Workers, who is everything Jimmy Hoffa isn't. Reuther is like, almost killed multiple times. Very brave, progressive hero. Really deserves to be much more well known. So also the effect of television, Right. The Kefauver hearings and the McCarthy hearings had pioneered this. But this is made for TV. And because McClellan has delegated so much authority to RFK, it's mostly his voice you're hear questioning these guys. So in terms of the highlights, you know, it's really like reality tv. It's kind of ridiculous. It's like, you know, Hoffa not pleading the Fifth. So to avoid perjury charges, he answers in all these bizarre ways. Sometimes he's doing it just to literally run out the clock. Like, he'll talk very circuitously, like, well, and of course, at that time, it was ordered that I should be made to appear in. Like, it's just like wasting their time. And then Kennedy kind of badgering the witnesses honestly, at one point, he says it must beg a belief that you don't remember things that any man on the street would remember. Things like, you know, that's his great moment. It's really quite stupid. Later hearings where they drag all the mobsters out, it's a bit more sinister. We're talking every mafia boss you could name in the country coming out, and they all wear sunglasses. They plead the Fifth a lot. And they just look like this sinister cast of characters. One moment I remember is Robert Kennedy quizzing Sam Giancana, who was a boss with the Chicago mob. And Giancana laughs at something and RFK says, I thought only little girls giggle, Mr. Giancana, that's a stupid thing to say for a bunch of reasons. I just also. Don't say that. Don't ever say that. That's not a good idea. So very much for prime time kind of pro wrestling antics, you know.

Lyra Smith (33:20)

And Hoffa is openly playing mind games with Bobby. Yeah, they call it the stare.

Dan O'Sullivan (33:27)

That's it. I mean, if you watch the videos, Kennedy will ask a question, and Hoffa clearly is wearing short sleeve dress shirts under his blazer. And his blazer arms will ride up so his bare arms are exposed to the midway. It's just like a caveman. Like, he's obviously not built to wear a suit, which, again, is endearing to the audience. Right. Because what you have is this guy with this sort of weird. He's from Indiana, but I've never heard anyone with this accent other than him. He has this weird Midwest accent, and he's answering this guy with this ridiculous Boston Brahmin accent or whatever. And he seems to be outsmarting him in the stare. He'll take a few seconds after Kennedy's done staring at him as if to say, you are the stupidest guy on earth. Right. And I have nothing but contempt for you. And a lot of audiences and teamsters and blue collar people really like this. That. But it seems like he's outsmarting this preppy, supercilious guy, which is not entirely wrong, I don't think. You know, he never really pins him down.

George Severis (34:31)

This keeps coming up with the Kennedys a lot. All these stories are always different American archetypes going up against one another. Bobby is sort of the privileged Boston lawyer and then Hoffa is the hardened gangster or something. And then obviously when it becomes a media event, everyone at home relates to the person they most want to win. Speaking of which, how was this all covered in the press? Was Bobby from the beginning seen as a hero? Did people cheer him on? Was it divided along class distinctions?

Dan O'Sullivan (35:00)

Yeah, so my grandparents were Irish immigrants and John Kennedy's portrait literally was hanging in their homes. I see the similar passion among black voters for Obama as the only close thing today. It means so much more than it does to other people. So they could sort of do no wrong with a lot of Irish Catholic voters. Obviously, Bobby, you know, it's interesting. No one gives a shit about Bobby. Right. Like Jack is going to be the one. So this is him trying to get his own thing going. His father certainly doesn't care. He has his one crown prince that he wants in. So this is Bobby trying to get the world to care about him, trying to get something for himself, which I think explains all this passion and anger going into this. Even though it's all kind of ineptly handled in terms of the reaction to it from the public, I think it breaks down a lot, not evenly along class lines, because obviously the Catholic thing, the Hoffa leadership thing, both appeals to different segments. I will tell you another master that RFK is serving here, though, is interestingly, a Southern anti union agenda. Right. Which is much of what is behind the subcommittee. And there's been increasing legislation throughout the 50s that is anti union. One of the major consequences of the committee is another round of anti union legislation which sort of hardens that package called Taft Hartley. So, you know, Bobby endearing himself as well in some respects to the business world.

George Severis (36:40)

So how much of this was specifically anti union rather than anti corruption? When you're politically progressive, you think in these conspiratorial ways where you're like, well, yes, Hoffa was bad, but they were going after the unions because they were anti labor or something. And I don't want to fall into that trap, but.

Dan O'Sullivan (36:56)

Right.

George Severis (36:56)

What was the. I mean, you think of Democrats as being pro union traditionally, especially in that time, what was the undercurrent of. Of just labor as labor that was running through this whole era?

Dan O'Sullivan (37:10)

So a big issue with the committee, the McClellan Committee, was it seemed to place all the blame for any labor racketeering, any corruption on the unions, which is really 50% of the story, Employers are also equally victim and co conspirator in labor racketeering. In fact, you could argue more responsible in the sense that union members are the ones who lose out on any kind of corrupt deal between an employer and a corrupted union. Right. We just recorded an episode on the Disney animators strike which involved the mafia. And what you had there was an attempt to get Hollywood union members under the control of the Ayatsi which at that time was controlled by the mob. And that's going to benefit all the movie studios are going to actually save money striking deals with that union. Right. Because they don't have to pay any good benefits. They really just have to pay bribes to a bunch of gangsters. And that's ultimately more inexpensive than doing the right thing by their employees. So this is not a part of the McClellan committee hearings. Right. They're not going to get into that at all. It's not really any employer sided stuff. And any honest accounting of union corruption should do that because that's where the money is. Right. It's great to loot pension funds and do all that. But labor racketeering is about extracting payoffs from these companies in exchange for doing nothing for your union members. They ignored that completely in terms of the political layout at that time. You know, it's interesting. Democrats, certainly northern Midwestern Democrats would be pro union, but this was still a time where we had Dixiecrats southern and they are not pro union. Right. So there is a cleavage in the party between those wings. And you know, it is possible to cultivate those politicians too, which this committee really did.

George Severis (39:07)

Is going after organized crime and unions almost a cop out in the sense that you are both being pro labor in that you are trying to clean it up, but also being anti labor in the sense that you are focusing on corruption in labor rather than in big business or whatever. Was that part of the thinking?

Dan O'Sullivan (39:26)

Yeah. I mean, and you hear this in the hearings when you hear McClellan decrying what Hoff is doing and it's like, yeah, but you don't support unions either. Like he's saying, oh, you're so. And he has this really deep southern voice. It's like, well, you don't care either. Right. So on the one hand, did Jimmy Hoffa conspire with the gangster Johnny Dio to create these, what they call paper unions, fake unions to run up his vote count? Yes. Did Johnny Dio later throw acid in the face of a labor journalist? Yes. Do you actually Care about your union members in New York, These taxi cab drivers were trying to get represented. No, you do not. Get real. So, yeah, I mean, Ronald Reagan would do this later, right. The mob prosecutions of the 80s under his Justice Department. And, you know, it was not a coincidence that so many of them went after corrupt unions because he also hated unions. Right. They were still corrupt, though, it must be said.

Lyra Smith (40:22)

It kind of reminds me of Hoffa's argument, or maybe the argument of people who remained supporters of Hoffa is that, you know, his involvement with the mob wasn't different from those who are prosecuting him. I mean, like you said, it's like the Kennedys had mob ties. And Hoffma makes the argument that, well, if the politicians are in bed with the mob, and if everybody who's in charge is in bed with them, then why shouldn't I be, then I should be also.

Dan O'Sullivan (40:50)

Yeah. And it has to be really emphasized. The Mafia at that time was a major institution in America. Right. And there were certain parts of business where it was just endemic, you know, trucking being one of them, and had been for a long time. So cleaning it up would have required effort of the sort. It must be said, RFK did try to undertake with aggressive prosecution. And for a time, as Attorney General, he did have results. So that's where he deserves a good deal of credit, I think, as Attorney General, really aggressively prosecuting these guys. And if you look at that early 60s period, it does sort of give a glimpse of an alternate reality where the Mafia had its back broken in the 60s. It was not inconceivable and not to go totally off the rails. That ends with November 22, 1963, where, as Jimmy Hoffa says to a reporter in Nashville that day, bobby Kennedy's just another lawyer now. Which is kind of a chilling thing to say, to be honest.

Lyra Smith (41:52)

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

Elena Sada (42:02)

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

Dan O'Sullivan (42:20)

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's the story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually, how I got out.

Elena Sada (42:33)

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell (43:01)

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waiting for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

Dan O'Sullivan (43:38)

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

Malcolm Gladwell (43:49)

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to revisionist history the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Evan Ratliff (44:01)

When news broke earlier this year that baby kj, a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a gripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'm Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to on crispr, the story of Jennifer Doudna with Walter isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion Stephen Curry comes Shot Ready. A powerful, never before seen look at the mindset that changed the game.

Malcolm Gladwell (44:46)

I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the.

Dan O'Sullivan (44:50)

Work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident.

Malcolm Gladwell (44:55)

I'm passing the ball to you.

Dan O'Sullivan (44:57)

Let's go.

Evan Ratliff (44:57)

Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot Ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook. For anyone chasing their potential, discover stories, strategies and over 100 never before seen photos. Order shot ready now@stephencurrybook.com don't miss Stephen Curry's New York Times bestseller, Shot Ready, available now.

George Severis (45:31)

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

Lyra Smith (45:34)

Now that we're here, can you tell us about the Jimmy Hoffa conspiracy theory around JFK's assassination?

Dan O'Sullivan (45:41)

Oh, boy. Okay. That's a big question. You could get lost in the sauce in this for quite a while. And I have. I'll give an anecdote by way of introducing this Dan Moldea, the journalist I mentioned earlier who's covered this from the beginning. He had a really funny story where he's talking to Jimmy Hoffa Jr. Hoffa's son, who later becomes Teamsters president himself. This was in the 70s after his father's disappearance. And Moldea says to him, look, I'm going to say in my book that I believe Jimmy Hoffa was involved in the murder of John F. Kennedy, which he has done a lot of reporting on. And Jimmy Hoffa Jr. Says, oh, come on with that. That's such bullshit. Everyone knows my dad was friends with Jack Ruby. So what? And Moldea says, wait, what? He had no idea. So he volunteered this information to him that his father knew Jack Ruby and was friends with him, obviously. Jack Ruby, assassin of Lee Harvey Oswald. So I'll try to restrict myself to saying Moldea's reporting confirmed this. It's been confirmed by other reporters. Jimmy Hoffa, at the very least, conspired to kill Robert Kennedy, according to an informant who later testified against Hoffa in Tennessee. In the trial that did send Hoffa to prison, this guy, Edward Grady Parton. And Parton said he talked with me about blowing up Bobby Kennedy's house, about killing him in his driveway, that this was discussed, that there's corroborating evidence for this. Hoffa is obviously in between the underworld and the legitimate world. There are ties between Teamsters and the mob obviously throughout the country, including with a guy like Jack Ruby, who made numerous calls in the weeks leading up to the assassination to guys connected to not just organized crime, but also the Teamsters. And I know this all sounds a little crazy, but people should look into the second congressional investigation of the Kennedy assassination, which is not as well known as the Warren Commission, which really, more broadly looks at the evidence and finds evidence for a conspiracy and one involving organized crime. In Hoffa, I think it was Bob Blakey who said that it was a mob hit, and he's the chief investigator. Investigator for that second one. And what's the motivation? The motivation's revenge. Jimmy Hoffa's a brutal, vindictive person who's been harangued for years. And this theory goes that he aided the Mafia, who was also under assault, to get them off their backs, get Bobby Kennedy out of the attorney General job. This was not the deal when they helped out the old man. And the way to do this is one mob boss, Carlo Marcello, in New Orleans, who's often linked to this. He says in Sicilian, I need to get the stone out of my shoe. That was the saying he used. And the stone in the shoe is Jack Kennedy, not Bobby. They get rid of Bobby, they're going to replace him with someone else. They got to get rid of this administration, period. That's the way this theory goes, and that Hoffa aided it.

George Severis (48:37)

All right, so if it's revenge, I do want to just clarify what had they gotten Hoffa for? Because he did eventually go to prison for.

Dan O'Sullivan (48:44)

I think he did eight years. Yeah. So they get him on, I believe it was extortion and fraud charges in Tennessee. Now, look, Hoffa had been involved in all these scummy things, right? Like he had the pension fund is being looted. They're making sweetheart deals with employers, selling out their own union members. They're doing things like corrupt land deals for vacation homes, for Teamsters officials that are shitty. Like, it's just bizarre stuff. So they do get them eventually. The way they get them is they turn one of his goons, this guy Parton, into a witness against him. And he tape records, you know, Hoffa, and they get him cold. He goes to prison in 1968 while he's still in prison. He is supporting Richard Nixon from prison while the Teamsters are supporting Humphrey. Nixon wins, and Hoffa cashes that in by getting a commutation of his sentence. He has the restriction he can't re enter Union politics till 1980. He's going to try to get around that. That was the condition of him getting out. And then there's this final war within the Teamsters which really ends with Hoffa's disappearance. But, yeah, they get him eventually. And I take that as a lesson, too. Look, if the federal government is intent on putting someone in prison, they will do it eventually. You know, even a lot of Robert Kennedy's allies were saying this is an abuse of power. You cannot just determine a guy has to go to prison and then work around that. And I think a lot of that approach, which he also brought to the Mafia, if you believe the conspiracy that the mob killed jfk, his treatment of the Mafia members in that same way probably helped that murder happen. Just to give one brief example, Carlos Marcello the New Orleans mob boss I mentioned earlier was born in Tunisia, and then his parents immigrated with him to the US As a young child. Well, Bobby Kennedy ordered him kidnapped and deported to Guatemala. So you had this bizarre scene of this New Orleans Mafia boss trudging through the jungle in Guatemala, knowing Bobby Kennedy put him there. That's a good way to get yourself killed, I have to say.

George Severis (50:51)

All right, so as Hoffa is in prison, Frank Fitzsimmons is rising through the ranks of the Teamsters and is even more deferential to the mob. And then a feud between Fitzsimmons and Hoffa develops, where Hoffa is essentially accusing Fitzsibbons of all the things that Bobby accused him of. You're not doing right by the people that you are pretending to serve. So, as I said, we leave the situation a worse place than it was when Bobby first got involved. And then what happens after that? I mean, what is the legacy of the relationship between unions and the mob?

Dan O'Sullivan (51:30)

All right, so Hoffa's in prison. Now. Bobby Kennedy got what he wanted, but Frank Fitzsimmons gets appointed president. Fitzsimmons is a Hoffa, you know, drone. I mean, he's not an inspiring figure in any way. He's a caretaker. Right? You keep the seat warm till I get back. And then he decides he doesn't want to give the seat up. And in fact, Fitzsimmons, in order to get rid of the direct contact with the mob of the sort that Hoffa had, he gives more power to the regional directors of the Teamsters. And what that does is it shoves all that trouble off his plate and makes the Teamsters even more corrupt, because now you have, like, 10 little fiefdoms where every one of those guys has mob ties and can do whatever he wants. And he doesn't have that same autocratic grip on him that Hoffa had. So it actually made the problem worse. Hoffa was at least a strong figure who could resist the mob in some respects. Now that's gone. Fitzsimmons is playing golf with Richard Nixon. And so it leads to this bizarre series of events where Hoffa comes out and no one really wants him back in the position of power. And Hoffa, like you said, starts getting loud because he wants the job back. And I think what really moves someone to act is he starts squawking about stuff that he really shouldn't be squawking about. It also should be said his disappearance needs to be put in the context of a few very important murders. Sam Giancana is murdered. John Roselli, another major Chicago mobster involved in the CIA in Cuba, and all this stuff is murdered. Hoffa disappears in between those two. All three would have been expected to be witnesses at a Senate committee reinvestigating the assassination plots involving the Mafia and CIA and jfk. So they all disappear kind of in the same year, year and a half, and they can't tell whatever they know in terms of where this leaves us today. The Teamsters, man. It's interesting to talk about the Teamsters now because they have had a continual struggle to clean up. There's a period in the 90s, Jimmy Hoffa Jr. And sort of the old guard regains power later. There is a reform movement within the Teamsters that has always been suppressed, which succeeds in electing a guy named Ron Carey as leader of the Teamsters who my father supported. He was not a Teamster, but another union member and I think is a really awesome guy. Ron Kerry was sort of undone by a criminal case that was very kind of fishy. And now it's run by Sean o'. Brien. It's a much cleaner union. But interestingly, for those who've been paying attention, Sean o' Brien is Donald Trump's biggest ally among unions, even though the current Trump administration is without a doubt the most anti union administration in American history. It's torn up the contracts of millions of federal workers, stripped them of collective bargaining rights just by dictate. And just to put a nice bow on it, Sean o' Brien is from Lead in Charlestown, Boston, Massachusetts, one of the most mobbed up locals in the country. So maybe there's a sequel to this story there too. But, you know, maybe everything old is new again.

George Severis (54:42)

I think that is a really great place to end. I have to say. I've. I don't know if I've ever learned so much in a single hour.

Dan O'Sullivan (54:49)

Well, wow, thank you so much. Yeah.

George Severis (54:51)

And if anyone is interested in more stuff like this and more about organized crime and the history of organized crime, Dan. The podcast is called the Outfit.

Dan O'Sullivan (54:58)

That's right, the Outfit. It's on Headgum and Higher Ground and available wherever podcasts are found.

George Severis (55:04)

All right, great. Well, thank you so much. This was great.

Lyra Smith (55:06)

So that's it for this week's episode.

George Severis (55:08)

Next week we're talking about the cult classic documentary Gray Gardens.

Lyra Smith (55:12)

So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week. United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Lyra Smith, and George Severis.

George Severis (55:22)

Research by Dave Roos and Austin Thompson.

Lyra Smith (55:24)

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

George Severis (55:27)

Edited by Graham Gibson and mixed by Doug Bain. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle. United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart podcasts.

Evan Ratliff (55:44)

Sacred scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story.

Dan O'Sullivan (55:56)

When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almaser, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

Evan Ratliff (56:05)

Surviving meant hiding. Escaping. Took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial maciel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell (56:19)

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

Dan O'Sullivan (56:30)

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough. I didn't kill him.

Malcolm Gladwell (56:36)

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Evan Ratliff (56:48)

When news broke earlier this year that baby kj, a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a gripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'm Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to Aunt the Story of Jennifer Doudna with Walter isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Greatness doesn't just show up. It's built. One shot, one choice, one moment at a time. From NBA champion Stephen Curry comes Shot Ready. A powerful, never before seen look at the mindset that changed the game.

Malcolm Gladwell (57:34)

I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the.

Dan O'Sullivan (57:37)

Work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident.

Malcolm Gladwell (57:42)

I'm passing the ball to you.

Dan O'Sullivan (57:45)

Let's go.

Evan Ratliff (57:45)

Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Shot Ready isn't just a memoir. It's a playbook for anyone chasing their potential. Discover stories, strategies and over 100 never before seen photos. Order shot ready now at stephencurrybook.com don't miss Stephen Curry's New York Times bestseller Shot Ready Available now.

Lyra Smith (58:09)

This is an iHeart podcast.