The Myths of the JFK-Nixon Debate

Summary

United States of Kennedy — Episode Summary

Podcast: United States of Kennedy
Episode: The Myths of the JFK-Nixon Debate
Date: January 5, 2026
Hosts: George Civeris and Julia Claire
Guest: Craig LeMay, Professor of US and Comparative Media Law, Northwestern University

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the cultural and historical legacy of the 1960 Kennedy–Nixon debate, widely considered the first televised presidential debate, and explores the myths that have surrounded it—most notably, the oft-cited claim that “TV viewers thought Kennedy won, but radio listeners thought Nixon did.” Hosts George and Julia, joined by media law expert Craig LeMay, unpack why these myths persist and how the political and media landscapes shaped (and were shaped by) this epochal event.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context of Presidential Debates

• Pre-1960 Format:
  • In the 19th and early 20th centuries, debates were mainly handled by surrogates, not candidates themselves.
  • The famous Lincoln-Douglas debates were unusual and even frowned upon at the time; senators weren’t popularly elected.
  • Debates were often forms of popular entertainment, integrated into carnivals and shows ([03:25]).
• First Face-to-Face Debate:
  • The 1960 JFK-Nixon debate was the first time presidential candidates ever debated directly on stage.
  • “[The 1960 debates]… that was not just the first televised debate. That was the first time in history presidential candidates met face to face. It had never happened before.” (Craig LeMay, [03:25])

2. Enabling the Debate: Legal and Technical Barriers

• Equal Time Law & Congress’ Role:
  • Section 315 of the 1934 Communications Act required equal airtime for all candidates, which would have made debates nearly impossible with so many minor candidates.
  • Congress temporarily suspended this rule in 1960 for the debates to occur ([07:11]).
  • After 1960, no further debates occurred until 1976 because the law wasn’t updated to specifically allow debates.
• Growth of Television:
  • 1956 marked the year when more than half of U.S. households owned a television; by 1960, TV had far surpassed radio’s reach.

3. Media Environment of the 1950s–60s

• News Dominated by Newspapers:
  • Newspapers still set the news agenda; TV news had only just begun to become widespread.
• TV Networks as ‘Loss Leaders’:
  • Network news programs weren’t profit centers but essential for their networks’ reputation.
• Public Reaction to Debates:
  • Initial press reviews were skeptical, viewing televised debates as unserious ([10:38]).

4. What Actually Happened in the 1960 Debate? Debunking the Myths

• Substance, Style, and Stagecraft:
  • Top issues like Vietnam did not feature; instead, minor Cold War topics did.
  • Kennedy’s appearance is mythologized: he wore a dark suit, accepted TV makeup (unlike Nixon), and appeared smooth, poised, and telegenic.
  • Nixon, who was ill, wore no makeup, was recovering from injury, and appeared uncomfortable, sweaty, and fatigued ([20:32]).
  • “The other thing I do know, both had agreed not to wear makeup. Kennedy wore makeup. Nixon declined it … in the days of analog television, you really needed to wear makeup or you would shine like a light bulb.” (Craig LeMay, [21:17])
  • Nixon worked to change his visual presentation for subsequent debates: “A four a day regimen of rich milkshakes helped me put on weight. And this time I agreed to use makeup.” (Nixon via George, [23:08])
• Substantive Value vs. Entertainment:
  • “One of the criticisms ... was that [television] made television the essential medium for national politics. ... It becomes more about entertainment values than substantive ones.” (Craig LeMay, [23:22])

5. The TV vs. Radio Winner Myth

• No Robust Evidence:
  • The belief that radio listeners favored Nixon and TV viewers favored Kennedy is largely anecdotal; there’s no solid data supporting this ([33:04]).
  • “I don't know, but I'm gonna guess there's no hard data on that. I'm gonna guess there were no social scientists who went out and did a scientifically credible poll to kind of figure this out. I think this is anecdotal...” (Craig LeMay, [33:04])
• Demographics and Radio’s Conservative Lean:
  • Radio audiences then (and now) tend to be more conservative, so any difference may have reflected the audience makeup rather than the medium’s effect ([34:11]).
  • Rural Americans, less likely to own TVs, were more likely to listen on the radio.

6. Evolution and Governance of Debates (Post-1960)

• No Further Debates Until 1976:
  • Legal barriers persisted until the FCC classified debates as news events (if sponsored by non-party entities).
• The Debate Commission:
  • Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) became official in 1987, after the League of Women Voters couldn’t enforce reasonable conduct. It is legally required to be nonpartisan ([26:46]).
  • Third-party participation rules require 15% support in national polls.
  • "[CPD] is by law nonpartisan... the commission specifically provides for third party candidates to participate if they have 15% national support." (Craig LeMay, [26:46])

7. Lasting Media Impact

• Television as a Medium Shapes Outcomes:
  • Kennedy, the first "television president," benefited from his youth, charisma, and TV presence.
  • The debate format contributed to the trend of campaigns prioritizing media management and style over in-depth policy.
• Cultural Influence:
  • The event inspired parodies (e.g., SNL's debate spoofs) and set a new standard for campaign media.

8. Enduring Value & Debate Critique

• Debates as Civic Ritual:
  • Despite their flaws, debates remain the one time candidates appear side by side in unscripted, uncontrolled conditions ([44:30]).
  • “This is the only place ever in the course of a presidential campaign where you see the candidates together in a venue that they do not control…” (Craig LeMay, [44:30])
• Entertainment vs. Substance:
  • Many bemoan debates’ lack of policy depth, but they still play a vital role in democracy—other nations have adopted the format, despite often shorter, less expensive campaigns.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Craig LeMay on the first televised debate:
  “That was not just the first televised debate. That was the first time in history presidential candidates met face to face. It had never happened before.” ([03:25])

• On the “TV vs. Radio” myth:
  “I don't know, but I'm gonna guess there's no hard data on that. ... It's believable if you've actually watched it. ... I think it's a credible claim, but I don't think there's any data behind it.” ([33:04])

• About Nixon’s appearance in subsequent debates:
  "A four a day regimen of rich milkshakes helped me put on weight. And this time I agreed to use makeup." (Richard Nixon memoir via George Severis, [23:08])

• On the significance of debates despite their flaws:
  “This is the only place ever in the course of a presidential campaign where you see the candidates together in a venue that they do not control and having to answer questions contemporaneously and also move on their feet.” ([44:30])

• On entertainment value: “They’re not real debates and … they’re mostly entertainment. Well, both are true, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have value.” ([23:53])

• On Kennedy and Nixon as foils:
  “For two white guys, they couldn't have been more different. Nixon had ... always had a big chip on his shoulder about not growing up rich … Kennedy was a prep school, New England, new money, very smooth, suave, poised, handsome man. Again, kind of everything that Nixon ... wanted to be.” (Julia Claire, [24:17])

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Important Timestamps by Topic

• [01:19] — Framing the 1960 debate’s mythic status
• [03:25] — Craig LeMay on the actual history of debates pre-1960
• [07:11] — Congress permits the debates via Equal Time Law suspension
• [10:38] — TV’s rise and public skepticism about the debates
• [15:42] — 70 million Americans watched the 1960 debate
• [20:32] — Kennedy’s presentation vs. Nixon’s (suit, makeup, illness)
• [23:08] — Nixon’s change in approach for later debates
• [26:46] — How the Commission on Presidential Debates works
• [33:04] — Debunking the TV vs. radio listener winner myth
• [38:44] — The learning curve for candidates in a new medium
• [44:30] — Why debates matter, outside of policy outcomes

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Overall Tone & Style

• The discussion was lively, insightful, and sometimes wry; hosts and guest were candid about the messiness and theatricality of American political ritual while maintaining respect for its democratic value.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, clear-eyed assessment of the JFK-Nixon debates, separating historical fact from enduring myth, and examining how American debates became a template—warts and all—for political contests across the world. The decisive takeaway: while style may have triumphed over substance in 1960, debates remain the rare moment when voters see candidates "move on their feet," and for all their imperfections, that's a civic moment worth preserving.

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Recommended next steps for listeners: Watch archived JFK-Nixon debates online, and read Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves to Death" for further context on media’s effect on public discourse.

Transcript

[Julia Claire]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Craig LeMay]

Hi Kyle, could you draw up a.

[Evan Ratliff]

Quick document with the basic business plan, just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Craig LeMay]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast shell game on iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[Craig LeMay]

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough. I didn't kill him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Severis]

I'm George Severis.

[Julia Claire]

And I'm Julia Claire. Happy New Year, you Kennedy sickos.

[George Severis]

This is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, or we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about the infamous 1960 presidential debate between JFK and Richard Nixon. Nixon was, of course, President Eisenhower's vice president, and Kennedy was a charismatic, handsome young senator who was winning hearts and minds despite the Catholic question.

[Julia Claire]

The Kennedy Nixon debate was the first televised presidential debate and in American history. And if you went to high school in the US Anytime in the last few decades, you likely learned that people who watched on television thought JFK won the debate, and people who listened on the radio thought that Nixon won.

[George Severis]

But it isn't quite that simple. And that myth has actually been largely debunked by media scholars over the last few decades.

[Julia Claire]

So to help guide us through this, we're joined Today by Craig LeMay, professor of US and Comparative Media Law at Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism and co author of Inside the Presidential Their Improbable Past and Promising Future.

[George Severis]

Craig, welcome to United States of Kennedy. Thank you so much for talking with us. I think let's get right into some historical context here. We were doing some research ahead of this episode, and we had a few sort of conflicting accounts of what presidential debates looked like before Jfk Nixon. So in our research document, it says that largely speaking, the candidates themselves did not do a lot of the debating and surrogates would do a lot of the debating. But then I was thinking, because I remember years ago reading Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death where he talks about the famous Lincoln Douglas debates, and the. His whole argument was, you know, people used to have the attention span to watch these three hour live conversations, which seem to be kind of in contrast with what we learned here. So I'm wondering, as an expert on this, if you can walk us through a little bit, you know, before the television era, what debates looked like.

[Craig LeMay]

Well, first of all, there was no such thing as a golden era of debate. You mentioned the Lincoln Douglas debates. In that era, surrogates debated usually. And when Lincoln and Douglas debated, that debate was sponsored by the Chicago Tribune. And it was actually considered unseemly by a lot of people because they were campaigning for a Senate seat. In those days, senators weren't elected by the popular vote. They were appointed by state legislatures. So the idea that these two guys would debate seemed to many people both not unseemly than just odd. And of course people think Lincoln won and he lost the seat. But also then, as was true throughout the 19th century and the early 20th century, debates were always part of other events, carnals, shows, and they were a form of popular entertainment. I think it's great you referenced Neil Postman. That's one of my favorite books. I think it's worth a reread. But people paid attention. That's true. And they were parts of other entertainment events. And if you flash forward to 1960, the most remarkable thing about the 1960 debates, first is that they happened at all because they wouldn't have happened if Congress hadn't have stepped in to make them happen. Secondly, that was not just the first televised debate. That was the first time in history presidential candidates met face to face. It had never happened before. Again, it was just something that candidates didn't do. And that was the role in the vice presidential debate in an earlier period too. The vice presidential candidates were the ones who would go fight it out on behalf of the guy further up the ticket. Really? Yeah.

[George Severis]

Something that was mentioned when we were doing some research on this that we didn't quite look into, and I would love your take on is in 1956. Sometimes this is called the first televised presidential debate, but it was Eleanor Roosevelt versus Senator Margaret Chase Smith, and they were acting as surrogates for their candidates. And I was shocked by the fact that in some ways the first televised presidential debate was between two women.

[Craig LeMay]

Were they actually in the same studio? Because that's the other thing. You often had debates. In fact, one of the Nixon Kennedy debates, I forgot which one. One of them was in New York and one was in la, and the first one here in Chicago. Of course they were in the same studio. I can't remember anyway the particular debate you're referring to. But one of the other remarkable things about television debates in 1956 is the year that television penetration crossed that 50% mark in the United States. Before that, most people didn't have television sets and they didn't get a signal. And even in 56, if you had a signal because you were in a significant metro area. But I would be curious because they obviously were they candidates, they were each.

[George Severis]

Acting as a surrogate.

[Craig LeMay]

That's interesting, because the other thing that happens is people don't realize this. One of the things that people always argue about is why is it only the two major parties to debate? Why are there other parties? And that's an interesting discussion we should have. But the other thing to consider is that I don't know what the number was in 1960. I used to know. But every year there's hundreds of people who are legally registered candidates for President of the United States. And one of the tricks with the debates is always this is true, not just the United States, but every country that has debates. Who gets to debate?

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

Who gets invited? And then there's a whole bunch of extra questions about is there any free time for candidates? Can they buy time? Do the candidates get equal time? What about third party candidates? So I don't know about that. This is a long way of saying I don't know about that 56 debate you're asking me about, but I would be curious if they actually. You said it was television. There were radio discussions and debates before that too, of course, but again, they didn't have the candidates meeting face to face until 1960.

[Julia Claire]

That's really interesting. And I want to go back to something that you mentioned about Congress clearing the way for the 1960 debate. I think a lot of people don't know about that. Could you explain that for us?

[Craig LeMay]

It's because when Congress wrote the 1934 Communications act, there's a part of it, it's called section 315, which is called the Equal Time Law, and it's still in force. And it says that anytime a qualified candidate for public office gets airtime, other candidates for the same office can claim the equal time. And the way that originally worked, believe it or not, was that anytime a candidate died, so even in routine news coverage, other candidates could step up and say, well, hey, you had that guy in the news for five minutes. And of course it's obviously newsworthy. You know, if you're an incumbent, cover what the incumbent's doing. But then are you seriously expecting that we're going to give equal time to 15 other people? And so Congress eventually changed the equal time law to say it only applied to bonafide news programs, news interviews, documentaries and things like that. It specifically did not say debates. And so it wasn't clear that, you know, if you had to debate between the candidates that you wouldn't have to provide equal time in some form or perhaps have other debates or invite the other candidates to the debates under the equal time rule. So in order to make it work, Congress actually in 1960 had a one time suspension of the law. They just said, not this year. And it made it possible for the Nixon candidates to happen. Oh, I actually have the number here. There are 14 candidates for president in 1960. So that's how they did it. They did it. And then the next in 1964, in fact, until 1976, there were no more debates because Congress didn't change the law to include the word debates. Johnson decided he didn't want to debate. He told Congress, don't do this. And then Nixon didn't want to debate later because he had had a bad experience in 1960. And so it's, it just took forever. And then the way it finally happened is the fcc, the Federal Communications Commission, acting really quite ingeniously and on its own authority, decided that debates were news events if they were sponsored by somebody other than the parties of the candidates. And so you'll recall it was the National League of Women Voters for many years until 1988. They sponsored the debates and they did the best they could. And they were dealing with candidates who made life really difficult for them. I mean, one of the things when people complain about all that's wrong with the debates and there's plenty that's wrong with them. The question has never been between great debates and not so great debates is between having debates and having no debates.

[Julia Claire]

Right?

[Craig LeMay]

And then there's this other question that people raise is that they're all a waste of time anyway. I don't believe that. As you could guess, it's the only time in the presidential campaign where you see the candidates side by side under circumstances they don't control.

[George Severis]

Right And I think the historical context that they used to be part of a carnival is especially salient because people love to talk about political media as, you know, a circus. And it's like, well, that is literally its legacy. It was originally an entertainment event as part of a carnival.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

I wonder if we can talk a little bit about the media ecosystem of the time. What did television and radio look like and political media especially look like? What was the baseline onto which this debate was added? Because I don't know, we are just so used to the world now of cable news and TV personalities and even in the slightly previous era, like Rush Limbaugh type figures on the radio. But what did it look like in the 50s, let's say, leading up to this debate?

[Craig LeMay]

First of all, I was born in 57, so my personal knowledge of this is a little thin. But of course the dominant media at the time would have been newspapers, including especially for news and political news. And the newspapers in the United States largely panned the 1960 debates. They thought, I don't know what they thought, but they thought this was not serious business. And of course in 1960, now you have television much more widely penetrated around the United States, but you still only have what, less than a handful of channels. You have two or three. You don't even have the UHF channels by 1960. The educational UHF band comes along because of Newton Minow, Kennedy's FCC chairman. And ABC is a barely functioning network at this point. ABC really cut its teeth on the Army McCarthy hearings about earlier in 1954. So it's really NBC and CBS. And of course in those days, and you know, well into my lifetime, they were the gold standard for television news. And of course they didn't make any money. They weren't expected to make money. That was also another different thing about there. They were loss leaders for their networks, but they were part of the CBS's Tiffany brand, for example, part of what gave it that, you know, shine. And that would have been true for Sarnoff over at NBC too. And they were very concerned, you know, when the original idea for debates came along. It happened because of Adelaide Stevenson, who of course ran for president, what, twice? And got beat soundly twice.

[George Severis]

And he didn't want a debate, Is that correct? He was resisting.

[Craig LeMay]

Well, he wasn't that kind of guy. He actually score on television. He made some comment once. So I should back up Newton Minow, my mentor. And I suppose the reason we're talking is because I worked for him for so long. He was an A to Senator Stevenson and Minow saw great potential on television, as did his friend and his colleague on the campaign trail, Robert Kennedy. And they had small children at the time. So they both envisioned a world in which television would be a much more vital resource in public education and elections and the rest. Stevenson thought it was like selling soap, and it was beneath him to do this. But nonetheless, his young age prevailed upon him. And the way it all happened is in 1959, Sunday newspapers had a Sunday magazine supplement under various names. I can't remember which one it was. But Stevenson published an article that Minow wrote urging basically, candidate time on the networks and that the networks would give free time to each of the candidates to speak to the nation. And the networks didn't really like that because they were afraid of setting a precedent where they would do this. And of course, that would have required a waiver of section 315 2. But the way Congress actually held hearings, and they were led by Senator John Pastore from Rhode island, and the way it eventually worked out, I think Frank Stanton, the president of CBS News, really prevailed upon them here was that we won't give him free time, but let's have a debate. Let's do that. It'll be much more entertaining, frankly. And he convinced Congress, and so that's why they had the debates. But the idea came from this article that appeared under Stevenson's name in 1959. So that was the media environment at the time. And a lot of people watch this thing. And as you know, a lot of people listen to it on the radio to this day. Presidential debates, when they air, if you take them together, they have audiences that rival major sporting events. Not quite super bowl levels, but if you add it all up, it's quite extraordinary. And of course, let's assume we have presidential debates ever again. I'm not at all confident that we will, because we really remember the Commission for Presidential Debates got pushed out of the picture in 2024 by the Biden campaign, and they just completely sidelined the commission. But these things are watched globally. They just don't have a domestic artist. They're watched all over the world. And the other thing to note about these debates, I think that's really important about them, is nobody in the world admires the Americans for the way they conduct presidential campaigns. They're just an absolute blank show. And they go on forever. Yes, interminably.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[Craig LeMay]

And they cost godly sums of money, dark money and all the rest. You know, a British campaign for prime minister lasts what, six weeks or something like this? By a lot.

[George Severis]

I mean, it's one of those things that as an American, you know, the American mind can't comprehend.

[Craig LeMay]

Nope, nope. And it's exhausting for people. But what they do admire, because the United States is really the first country to ever have presidential debates. And it's partly because we were early to the, to the poll with television. In 1960, there were only, you know, how many countries that had television around the world, especially national networks. But they did think these debates are a really cool idea. And so one of the things the Commission of Presidential Debates has done for years is train people from around the world and help them set up their debates under their own law. Because those original questions I toss at you about who gets to debate, who gets free time, who gets paid time, are there content restrictions on debates? What about minority party candidates, you know, in parliamentary systems? That's a bigger deal than it is here. In any event, everybody around the world has looked at the debates for all their problems and said, yeah, we should do that. That's a good idea.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah. And just to add some figures to what you were saying, the 1960 debate was watched on television by 70 million people. 70 million Americans. And the population at the time of the United States was only about 180 million people. So that is a huge swath of the population. Probably as many people who as had TVs at that time were watching the presidential debate.

[George Severis]

We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after this break.

[Craig LeMay]

Hi Kyle, could you draw up a.

[Evan Ratliff]

Quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Craig LeMay]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.

[George Severis]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Craig LeMay]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, hey Evan, good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Julia Claire]

He would say to himself, turn to the right. Turn to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Craig LeMay]

Like, if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm gonna get a seven figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built a cultural empire, the Atlanta Is podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world.

[Craig LeMay]

The thing I love about Atlanta is.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

That it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now.

[Craig LeMay]

I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as, like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent creatives in all walks of life.

[Evan Ratliff]

The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment.

[Julia Claire]

And that's like how you know, like, okay.

[Craig LeMay]

Oh, you from Atlanta for real? I ain't gotta say too much. I'm Grady, baby. Shut up.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Guess.

[Julia Claire]

And we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

[George Severis]

So let's get into the debate itself because it's this theoretical prompt that people use to make arguments. But I realized in preparing for this, I don't actually even know what the main issues were, what the big questions.

[Craig LeMay]

Were that they should have. I mean, you can watch them on YouTube and I should have gone back to watch them. But I do know, for example, Vietnam didn't come up at all. Right, okay. And said a couple of little Chinese islands did. And the other thing is, the candidates barely looked at each other, at least in that first one in the CBS studios here in Chicago.

[George Severis]

There are these basic things that are part of the mythology that has spread around this debate, where, for example, JFK wore a dark suit and that made him look better on the TV set. Nixon had a five o' clock shadow and that made him look tired. He was sweating, all this stuff. Do you mind? For anyone who might not even be aware of any of the narratives surrounding this debate, walking us through the main highlights, both substantial ones and surface level ones.

[Craig LeMay]

Well, let's start with the surface level ones. Some of this is anecdotal, of course, and it's taken on a mythology of its own. As you noted. Nixon, of course, it was true. He had a fever. He was not well. He also smacked his knee on the cab of door when he was getting to the studio. So his knee hurt. And to be fair, I mean, the guy was never in his life a capable television personality. Kennedy was, of course, very poised, very smooth. The other thing I do know, both had agreed not to wear makeup. Kennedy wore makeup. Nixon declined it. And of course, it was offered to them by whoever does makeup in the CBS news studio. And you know, in the days of analog television, you really needed to wear makeup or you would shine like a light bulb.

[Julia Claire]

Right?

[Craig LeMay]

And it was heavy makeup. I mean, when they took that stuff off, they soiled a towel doing it. But any event, Nixon wore no makeup and looked uncomfortable. You can watch a little bit of the video and see how just uncomfortable he looks. Never mind, you know, stories of perspiration or anything else. So I think that's about all I know regarding the superficial stuff. Substantively, again, I think I'd have to go back and look. There was going to be a fourth debate. There never was. I don't believe there was a vice presidential debate that year. Gosh, I didn't check that, but I don't think so. But again, that substantively, they were not that great. Again, anecdotally, the person who wrote about this at great length is a former dean at Penn, Kathleen Hall Jamison. And she wrote about the data around what, you know, viewers saw and thought and all the rest. But anecdotally, I recall, you know, many people thought, you know, Kennedy was still a Dark horse. Then, you know, he's this Catholic guy running. He's from this noblesse oblige family in Boston. There's rumors about his family, some of which are true. And Nixon is a much better known personality. And of course it was important in Chicago because this was, I think, still is an overwhelmingly Catholic city. And reportedly Kennedy actually convinced a lot of voters in industrial centers like Chicago that he was a capable guy. Because, remember, as a senator, what was he in his first or second term? Not especially strong political career behind him. But, you know, for all I can remember reading about those debates, almost nothing had to do with substance. And the extent that it did, it mostly incurred the substance they did not talk about. I think that's about all I can say on that subject. Again, I would urge anyone who's genuinely concerned about this, you can go watch these on YouTube.

[George Severis]

Yeah. And our producer is sending us this message from Nixon's memoir.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

He says the second debate was scheduled for October 7, 11 days later. And will Washington. I knew I had to counter the visual impression of the first debate. A four a day regimen of rich milkshakes helped me put on weight. And this time I agreed to use makeup.

[Craig LeMay]

That's great. That's great. I do think it's true. I mean, I do remember Nixon from my teenage years. And the guy was never a good performer on television to the extent that, you know, one of the criticisms, I suppose, of that era was that it made television the essential medium for national politics. And your criticism is that's not a good thing. It goes to the Neil Postman comment. You open with that. It becomes more about entertainment values than substantive ones. To this day, one of the harshest criticisms of the debates is a, they're not real debates and B, they're mostly entertainment.

[George Severis]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

Well, both are true, but that doesn't mean they don't have value.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And I, I think that the scene that we're setting in the 1960 election was that Nixon and Kennedy were kind of each other's foils in a lot of ways. For two white guys, they couldn't have been more different. Nixon had famously always had a big chip on his shoulder about not growing up rich. Not.

[Craig LeMay]

Plus Eisenhower didn't thoroughly endorse him.

[Julia Claire]

Right. And he wasn't smooth in front of the cameras. He was kind of a backroom dealer. And that's a way in which he was most effective. Whereas Kennedy was a prep school, New England, new money, very smooth, suave, poised, handsome, handsome man. Again, kind of everything that Nixon I Think in his heart of hearts, wanted to be. And there were, obviously, as you mentioned, the Catholic question was a big one on people's minds. And Nixon had publicly been saying, I don't have any worries about a Catholic being president. But behind the scenes, he was stoking a lot of the anti Catholic.

[Craig LeMay]

Interesting sentiment.

[Julia Claire]

And I think that putting these two men side by side on television together is a great representation of just how different they were.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah. It's really one of those foundational media texts.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig LeMay]

Actually, I think many of the presidential debates are. I mean, if you taught a class on this, you might start with 1960, and then you have to go all the way forward to 1976, where you have Carter and Ford, and Ford makes that famous remark about Poland not being under Soviet domination. I think that's the year. And then 1980, Jimmy Carter refuses to appear on the stage with John Anderson. And of course, I think it's beginning in 76 when Saturday night Live does an uninterrupted series of its own presidential debates where Chevy Chase played Gerald Ford and, you know, other SNL people came to play other presidents and presidential candidates. And then, of course, Flash forward in 2020, where the debates during COVID were kind of a disaster. And that was the reason why, according to them, the Biden campaign just pushed the commission aside in 2024. And Trump didn't like the commission either. Everybody on every side of the political divides has accused the commission of being somehow biased or partisan. Most of this is just not true. It's just demonstrably not true. But they're an easy target to kick around. And of course, the commission didn't exist in 1960.

[George Severis]

I was about to say. Yeah, I'm curious, while we're on the topic, what is the history of the commission, when was it founded, and also, who is it made up of? And how do they ensure that it's not biased?

[Craig LeMay]

Well, first of all, it's often accused of being bipartisan. That would be illegal under federal election law. It is by law nonpartisan.

[Julia Claire]

Nonpartisan.

[George Severis]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

And this is why, no matter what the Wall Street Journal thinks, you can't just have these things run by the campaigns of the parties because the commission specifically provides for third party candidates to participate if they have 15% national support in a total of five national polls. And you remember in 1992, Ross Perot was in all three debates for that. And then he was excluded in 1996 as he had no support. But the commission came about because the League of Women Voters just Didn't have the clout. The argument that the campaigns run the show was kind of true, while the league ran the debates because they didn't have the clout of firstly, even make these people show up. You know, if you're an incumbent, it's not in your interest to debate. And one of the reasons they happened in 1976 is because Gerald Forbes, 32 points behind Jimmy Carter, and he felt he had to debate. And Carter felt that nobody knew who he was and he had to debate. And then Ford closed. He only lost the election by two or three points. But after that, oh, my gosh, the campaigns, they would negotiate all the terms on the most bizarre things. A lot of this was political jockeying. What color pencils would be on the lectern? How tall would the lecterns be? Where would the water glasses be? Who speaks first? What would the topics be? And this is not how you want to have a debate. And again, the league kind of had to acquiesce in this because if they didn't, the candidates would walk.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

So in 1987, there were two different studies. One came from Harvard. That was the one that Minnow was a part of. It came from the Kennedy Center, I believe. Another one, I want to say, came from Johns Hopkins. But in any event, both proposed some new organization to sponsor these debates. And so out of the Harvard report came their proposal for the commission, which is established in 97 and organizes its first debate in 1988. And over time, the commission really ran the show. It was once true, but it's long been a myth that the candidates choose the moderators. They choose the topics, they choose the timing. They don't choose anything.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

They still issue memorandum of understanding and pretend to negotiate about things. That's just puffery, political puffery, because it looks good for their constituents. But the commission really ran the show and that including also very importantly, choosing the moderators.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

And you know, tonight I forgot what year it was. It was what I think was the last year that the league ran the debate. So that would have been 84. The two campaigns went to a list of 103 people to finally choose a moderator.

[Julia Claire]

Wow.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah. So the commissions put an end to all that.

[Julia Claire]

We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

[Craig LeMay]

Hi, Kyle.

[Evan Ratliff]

Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Craig LeMay]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.

[George Severis]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Craig LeMay]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, hey Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Julia Claire]

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love. So he had this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry, to the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Craig LeMay]

Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm gonna get a seven figure check. I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built a cultural empire, the Atlanta Is podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world.

[Craig LeMay]

The thing I love about Atlanta is.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

That it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now.

[Craig LeMay]

I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as, like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent creatives in all walks of life.

[Evan Ratliff]

The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment.

[Julia Claire]

And that's like, how, you know, like, okay.

[Evan Ratliff]

Are you from Atlanta?

[Craig LeMay]

For real? I ain't gotta say too much. I'm Grady, baby.

[Julia Claire]

Shut up.

[Atlanta Is Podcast Host]

Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast, I guess.

[George Severis]

And we're back with United States of Kennedy.

[Julia Claire]

I think one of the most pervasive myths about the 1960 debate, something that I was taught in school, in high school, was that if you watched it on tv, you thought JFK won, and if you listen to it on the radio, you thought Nixon won. Where does this myth originate?

[Craig LeMay]

I don't know, but I'm gonna guess there's no hard data on that. I'm gonna guess there were no social scientists who went out and did a scientifically credible poll to kind of figure this out. I think this is anecdotal, and you've seen contemporaneous newspaper accounts saying this. So that what that means is journalists talk to people, which is swell, but it's hardly social science.

[Julia Claire]

Yeah.

[Craig LeMay]

And so it's believable if you've actually watched it. I don't know if there's a place where one could go listen to the audio, but I think for many of us, we've had the experience of watching an event or listening to it. And it's quite reasonable to think that when you listen to event, you cognitively process the whole thing differently than when you watch it. I think it's a credible claim, but I don't think there's any data behind it.

[George Severis]

And there's a couple of things. Polling was just so much less accurate and so new than political polling writ large. And then the other thing, which is so obvious in retrospect, but historically, even to this day, radio audiences are more conservative than television audiences in terms of, like, political content, is that because that's.

[Craig LeMay]

What the content is available on radio? I mean, if I'm listening to politics on the radio, it's overwhelmingly conservative, at least on over the air, but even on satellite. I think this argument might be true.

[George Severis]

And this is true from what I understand, at least, this is true from this era, through Rush Limbaugh, through a lot of religious radio, stat these right wing preachers. And so to your point about social science methodology, it seems like such an obvious confusion of causality versus what's the.

[Craig LeMay]

You know, we'd actually have to talk to a social science researcher, I think. I think Kathleen Hall Jamison might be deceased, but she'd be the one to ask about this. But I can't believe, if he knew this was coming, that social scientists wouldn't have geared up in advance to kind of measure audience responses. But maybe they didn't.

[Julia Claire]

But I think to your point earlier about who had televisions might also be something, something of a hint here, because I think if obviously partisan demographics have shifted a lot, but in the more rural parts of America, that might have been more conservative. I think you would probably be much more likely to only have a radio versus a television.

[Craig LeMay]

Very possibly. I mean, when televisions first became a consumer device, they were stupid, expensive. I mean, back then it was equivalent of buying a car. The major driver for selling television sets was sports, like it still is. And of course, a lot of people watch television in places like bars and department stores where it wasn't your set. It was almost a community set.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

I think, you know, with respect to that, you mentioned radio. The other thing to note that's changed over the years is the fcc, long ago, during the Reagan administration, abandoned the Fairness Doctrine. That was what made Rush Limbaugh possible. You couldn't have had a guy like that on the air without a counter or the opposing point of view on. Well, that's long gone, so we don't worry about that anymore.

[George Severis]

I know. I was thinking about the Fairness Doctrine when you were talking about the equal time law, because it's a similar idea.

[Craig LeMay]

Somewhat similar. The equal time law is still in effect and it comes into play where you don't expect it. When Trump ran for office in 2016, he had to leave the Apprentice because that would have been considered candidate time. If you appear on a late night talk show, anything that's on a bonafide news event triggers that equal time provision. And you still have third party candidates, some of whom you might not have ever heard of, who will make equal time claims based on candidate appearances.

[Julia Claire]

So another point that our researchers have tapped into was that Nixon came across as much more polite. Nixon was kind of on his best behavior during the debate.

[Craig LeMay]

Interesting.

[Julia Claire]

His entree into political life, into public life, was a little bit uncomfortable. It was a little bit of a square peg in a round hole.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[Julia Claire]

And so he came across as very polite and stiff. RFK in advising his brother, told jfk, kick him in the balls.

[Craig LeMay]

That sounds like RFK advice too. That's exactly what he did.

[Julia Claire]

I know.

[George Severis]

Well, it's funny because they're opposites, because Nixon is naturally uncharismatic and is trying to be so polite that it seems phony. Whereas Kennedy is naturally charismatic and so is able to get away with being more aggressive because it only makes him seem more presidential in this way.

[Craig LeMay]

Although it's interesting because for the longest time and well into the 70s and 80s, the wisdom for presidential debates was that you do not attack your opponent, you do not behave aggressively, because that looks bad in front of the audience. That's for the vice presidential debate.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

Those guys didn't slug it out, but you're supposed to. In fact, there was great concern about appearing. Obviously, this day is long past, but it was great concern about appearing aggressive or belligerent.

[George Severis]

Yes, this concern has long passed. You're correct.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

The other thing is Kennedy talked to the audience, whereas Nixon addressed the camera. Yes, the camera, which is such an obvious thing that I'm sure is now.

[Craig LeMay]

I don't think it is obvious. Even today, if we take somebody who's never been in a television studio, they will tell you, look here, look there, don't look here. And I'm not sure he had that coaching, and I'm not even sure there was an audience for that one. In Chicago, you just had the moderators. Right. But you can see him when you watch the television, his eyes flitting around, uncertain where to park.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting seeing in real time people figure out a new medium. I mean, it kind of reminds me of when someone our age or older trying to use a new platform like TikTok, because we grew up with different, you know, we're not as natural as a 16 year old.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Speaking straight to camera, every medium comes with its own set of internal logic. I think part of the reason people now are so cynical about televised debates is because there's now so much research about what the best way to come across is.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

It seems even more phony when you see people just hitting their mark, you know, like they're.

[Craig LeMay]

Well, you know. I mean, the rap on President Trump is that he disregards all of this advice.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Craig LeMay]

And his mark is his mark. And that this is his authenticity.

[George Severis]

But he's also such a student of television. That's the thing.

[Craig LeMay]

That's true. A lot of experience.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, there's a guy who above all else knows how to be on tv.

[Craig LeMay]

That's true.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[George Severis]

It's his biggest talent.

[Craig LeMay]

You got me. You're right.

[George Severis]

So speaking of Trump, you are a literal expert on presidential debates. I want to know what is the legacy of this debate? I mean, it is, as you mentioned, one of the tent poles, one of the debates people talk about when they talk about the history of debates. But how did it influence how candidates after 1960 acted, how they attempted to stage manage debates, what they agreed to versus what they didn't agree to, how the networks approach debates?

[Craig LeMay]

Well, you don't have a debate for six, another one till. For 16 years, till 76. And again, you have the League of Women Voters, then you have the commission and. And the candidates, of course, prepare for these things. And they're told by the commission what the general topics will be. So foreign policy, domestic policy, the economy, whatever, but nothing beyond that. The heyday of debates, in my view, was when, if you remember, Jim Lehrer was the sole moderator. He was the PBS guy. He really ran them. Well, I don't like journalists being moderators. I think it's a bad idea. Journalists have a strong incentive to make news, and that's not necessarily in the service of the debate. You might remember when Bernard Shaw famously asked Mike Dukakis, what do you do if his wife was raped? And it was just meant to poke him in the eye.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

You know, I thought that was horrible at the time, but Mr. Dukakis told me several years ago that, no, he thought that was a fair question. But again, that's more about entertainment values than debates. So that's always been the tension. I think the immediate question that concerns me is, well, we have debates. Again, we only had debates in 2024. Again, they kicked the commission aside, and the only reason he hadn't was because the race was. But in a future election, if we have, you know, more than 8, 9 points separating the candidates, if I'm the incumbent, I'm not debating. I have absolutely nothing to gain in everything I lose. You can't win a debate, but you can absolutely lose one. Look at what happened to Joe Biden. Look what happened to Barack Obama in that first debate with Mitt Romney. All of a sudden, Mitt Romney seemed like a progressive Republican and Obama was not very well prepared and stumbled all over himself. So substance aside, they do matter. The social science wisdom is that they confirm people and what they already think. But if you ask the candidates themselves, from Nixon and Kennedy forward, all them will tell you that they thought those debates made a substantial difference to the outcome of the campaign. And in some cases, I mean, obviously in 2024, it disrupted the campaign. So the big question for me is Will we have them again? And if we do, who will sponsor them? The network sponsored them in 2024. The campaigns and the parties cannot sponsor them. That would be ille. Yeah. Although who, you know, is anything illegal anymore? I don't know.

[Julia Claire]

So the next, the next presidential debate is sponsored by Turning Points usa.

[George Severis]

That's right.

[Craig LeMay]

Exactly. Yes. Well, they could do that, by the way. I mean, anybody can sponsor debate. You just have to be credibly nonpartisan from the FEC's point of view. But I think that the networks obviously have sponsored the primary debates for years. I think one of the reasons the debates have gotten a bad name is because the primary debates are singularly awful.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig LeMay]

You have 15 people on stage. That's not a debate, that's a shouting match.

[Julia Claire]

Yes.

[Craig LeMay]

When you're asking 15 candidates to raise or lower your hand in response to some prompt, oh, my heavens, that's a disservice to the whole thing. And I think the presidential debates have been tarnished as a result. And I think they're very valuable. Other countries obviously think so. There's other ways to do debates. You could actually do a Oxford style debate where you debate a specific proposition. But we'll see.

[Julia Claire]

I mean, this. The 1960 election was extremely close. As we all know, it was decided by about 100,000 votes.

[George Severis]

But I'm glad you brought this up, Julia, because I think that's another part of the common misconception people have just anecdotally, because there's this myth that, you know, JFK surprised everyone by winning the televised debate. I think I grew up thinking that it was a landslide victory or something. But as you're saying, it was very close.

[Julia Claire]

Oh, I was just going to see if you thought that it made a big difference one way or the other.

[Craig LeMay]

To the outcome of the election. Yeah, we can guess all day at that one. But, you know, there was also stories about Mayor Daly, you know, as he was. Wants to do to fix the election in Chicago.

[Julia Claire]

Right.

[Craig LeMay]

So. And that Chicago was the difference. I don't know. That's not my area. But yeah, very, very close. And whether the debates made a difference or not, I don't know. But they did. I mean, Kennedy went on to become the Camelot president. He was the first true television president and his whole, you know, Camelot family and the whole thing. So that really does. It's more important for the future of television, perhaps than it is for the future of the presidential campaigns.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I mean, we can argue all day about how important it was, but it's not a coincidence that the first, as you're saying, television president also happened to be young and attractive and charismatic, and his wife was a fashion icon. And they're going around and being interviewed by television reporters in other countries. I mean, it can be overstated by people that want to make some sort of determinist argument about the power of television, but it is at least somewhat true. And there's no way around it.

[Craig LeMay]

I'm actually a lot less concerned than, you know, what is the effect on the outcome that I'm. I still believe that they're important in their own right. And so I always react. I have skin in this game, so that should note. But I react always when I hear people dismiss these as entertainment, not important, a distraction from the real issues. All those things are true to some degree. But once again, this is the only place ever in the course of a presidential campaign where you see the candidates together in a venue that they do not control and having to answer questions contemporaneously and also move on their feet. That's what a president is supposed to do. We want people who, in a tough situation can sort of like jab and parry, and that's what they do.

[George Severis]

And there's something to be said about how widely available it is. I mean, going back to the Neil Postman's point about the Lincoln Douglas debates, I'm sure those were more substantive, but they also could not be watched by hundreds of millions of people at any given time.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah, I'm so glad you keep referencing Postman. I've actually been meaning to reread that.

[George Severis]

You know, it's really been in the ether.

[Craig LeMay]

Didn't you write it partly in response to the Reagan presidency?

[George Severis]

I think so, yes. And it's funny. Like, there are interesting little tics he has. Like, he loves criticizing Sesame Street.

[Craig LeMay]

Interesting.

[George Severis]

He thinks that it is a bad thing, that it is training children to think that all education should be entertaining.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Which is so funny because now I don't know. My little niece, for example. If anything, I am pushing Sesame street as an alternative to things I think of as so much worse.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah, Paw Patrol.

[George Severis]

Exactly.

[Craig LeMay]

I will say, though, it's true, that was always a criticism of Sesame street, that it also taught short attention spans. Yes, but I was too old for Sesame Street. But my baby sister watched it. It was the most watched television program in the world, and I don't know how many different languages. The perfect is the enemy of the good here. In debates and in children's television, I'm always on the side of the people who want to do the good and are less obsessed with the perfect.

[George Severis]

Well, that's a great place to end if I ever heard one.

[Craig LeMay]

Okay.

[George Severis]

Thank you so much.

[Craig LeMay]

Yeah, it's my pleasure. It's been a lot of fun.

[Julia Claire]

So that's it for this week's episode.

[George Severis]

Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things Kennedy.

[Craig LeMay]

Every week.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia, Claire, and George Taveras.

[George Severis]

Original music by Joshua Topolsky.

[Julia Claire]

Editing by Graham Gibson.

[George Severis]

Mixing and mastering by Doug Behm.

[Julia Claire]

Research by Dave Ruse and and Austin Thompson.

[George Severis]

Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

[Julia Claire]

Our executive producer is Jenna Cagle.

[George Severis]

Created by Lyra Smith.

[Julia Claire]

United States of Kennedy is a production of I Heart podcast.