Anti-Qualified

Summary

UnJustified Podcast Summary: Episode "Anti-Qualified"

Podcast Information:

• Title: UnJustified
• Host/Author: MSW Media
• Description: The creator of Mueller, She Wrote, Allison Gill, and former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, document the erosion of civil liberties and the rule of law under Trump's Department of Justice (DoJ).
• Episode: Anti-Qualified
• Release Date: February 2, 2025

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1. DOJ's Classified Documents Case and Appeal Dropping

The episode opens with significant developments in the Department of Justice's handling of classified documents cases related to former President Donald Trump. Andrew McCabe discusses the DOJ's decision to drop the appeal of Judge Cannon's dismissal of charges against Trump's associates, Walt Nauta and Carlos de Oliveira, in the classified documents case.

Andy McCabe [00:08]: "The Department of justice has moved to drop the appeal of Judge Cannon's dismissal of the charges against Walt Nauta and Carlos de Oliveira in the classified documents case."

Alison Gill echoes the frustration over the DOJ's actions, emphasizing the predictability of the case's dismissal post-Trump's inauguration.

Alison Gill [02:27]: "It's effectively gone forever now."

2. Mass Firings and Leadership Changes in the FBI

A major focus of the episode is the administration's unprecedented purge of senior FBI officials. Alison Gill reports that at least six top FBI leaders overseeing cybersecurity, criminal investigations, and national security were instructed to resign or face termination by Monday, coinciding with Kash Patel's confirmation hearing to head the FBI.

Alison Gill [00:18]: "The administration has told at least six top FBI officials in charge of cybersecurity, criminal investigations and national security to resign or be fired by Monday as Kash Patel sits for his confirmation hearing to head the agency."

Andrew McCabe adds context by explaining the high-ranking nature of these officials and the strategic timing of their removal.

Andy McCabe [12:33]: "These senior officials at the executive assistant director level or special agent in charge level also include those who oversee cyber national security and criminal investigations."

3. Partial Dropping of High-Profile Cases: Jeff Fortenberry and Taylor Taranto

The DOJ's selective approach to dropping cases is highlighted through the dismissal of the Jeff Fortenberry case and the partial dropping of charges against Taylor Taranto related to January 6.

• Jeff Fortenberry Case: Former Representative Jeff Fortenberry had his prosecution dropped after a conviction was overturned, with Trump celebrating this move as a reversal of what he termed a "witch hunt."

  Andy McCabe [05:29]: "Trump quickly hailed the move as a sign of how his appointees are reversing what he has described as the politicization of the Justice Department under the Biden administration."

• Taylor Taranto Case: While DOJ drops the January 6 charges against Taranto, it continues with unrelated charges, showcasing selective enforcement.

  Andy McCabe [08:20]: "It's how intently they are going in and carving up these January 6th cases."

4. Kash Patel’s Controversial Confirmation Hearing

A substantial portion of the episode delves into Kash Patel's contentious confirmation hearing for FBI Director. Patel faces intense scrutiny over his past statements supporting January 6th rioters and alleged ties to the QAnon movement. His performance during the hearing, including his inability to directly criticize Trump's pardons and his evasive responses, draws significant criticism from the hosts.

Alison Gill [32:27]: "During Patel's five hour hearing following Gabbard's on Thursday, the former prosecutor came under fire for his previous support of Capitol rioters."

Andy McCabe [37:13]: "Nothing he says can be trusted. And like you said, he's going to lead the most preeminent law enforcement agency, probably globally."

5. Shift in DOJ Policies Under Trump Administration

The podcast examines the broader policy shifts within the DOJ under the Trump administration, including a move towards more conservative stances. This involves replacing leniency-focused memos with directives for stringent prosecution, halting civil rights and environmental work, and reassigning over 15 career employees to less critical positions.

Andy McCabe [39:46]: "They replaced a Biden era memo telling prosecutors to show leniency to some drug offenders with a new policy calling for the pursuit of the most serious charges and the stiffest penalties for all crimes."

6. Removal of Inspectors General and Government Oversight Concerns

A disturbing trend discussed is the mass removal of Inspectors General (IGs), key watchdogs responsible for overseeing government agencies. The firing of nearly 20 IGs, including the removal of Phyllis Fong who was investigating Elon Musk, raises alarms about the erosion of checks and balances.

Alison Gill [47:08]: "Inspectors general were notified late Friday by emails from White House Personnel Director Sergio Gore that, 'due to changing priorities, they have been terminated immediately.'"

Andrew McCabe laments the unprecedented nature of this action, noting it violates standard protocols and undermines governmental oversight.

Andy McCabe [48:09]: "It is not a standard thing to do. No president that I can think of from either party has ever done this upon entering office."

7. Impact on FBI and DOJ Workforce and Federal Employees' Dilemma

The episode highlights the broader impact on the DOJ and FBI workforce, with career professionals facing forced resignations or terminations. Listeners, particularly federal employees, are grappling with decisions on whether to remain in their positions to uphold the law or leave to avoid potential repercussions.

A listener question addresses this dilemma:

Listener [55:34]: "Should non-SES employees of the Justice Department try to stay on to make sure as many laws are followed as possible or whether they should leave..."

Andrew McCabe advises staying for those dedicated to justice, while also acknowledging the personal and legal complexities involved.

Andy McCabe [55:34]: "If you're at the end of that amazing experience, you should try to get to that finish line."

8. Conclusion and Final Remarks

The hosts conclude by expressing deep concern over the DOJ and FBI's current trajectory, emphasizing the critical loss of integrity and commitment to the rule of law. They offer support to affected federal employees and encourage listeners to stay informed and engaged.

Andy McCabe [61:04]: "For those of you going through this as federal employees, whether you're FBI employees or anybody else, we feel terrible for you and you shouldn't be treated this way."

Notable Quotes:

• Alison Gill [00:42]: "This is unjustified."
• Andy McCabe [02:16]: "Holy cow. One of the things that frustrates me so much about this story..."
• Andy McCabe [07:45]: "I don't think we've ever been in a situation where anyone even proposed that..."
• Alison Gill [35:22]: "Release volume two, or at least send it to us so that we can provide advice and consent."
• Alison Gill [53:17]: "Almost 90 agents."
• Andy McCabe [55:04]: "It's just revolting. It's so hard to watch."

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Conclusion: In this episode of UnJustified, Allison Gill and Andrew McCabe provide a comprehensive and critical examination of the Trump administration's actions within the Department of Justice and the FBI. Through detailed analysis and firsthand insights, they shed light on the systematic undermining of civil liberties, the rule of law, and institutional integrity. The hosts underscore the dire implications of these changes for federal employees and the broader American justice system.

Transcript

[Alison Gill]

MSW Media.

[Andy McCabe]

The Department of justice has moved to drop the appeal of Judge Cannon's dismissal of the charges against Walt Nauta and Carlos de Oliveira in the classified documents case.

[Alison Gill]

The administration has told at least six top FBI officials in charge of cybersecurity, criminal investigations and national security to resign or be fired by Monday as Kash Patel sits for his confirmation hearing to head the agency.

[Andy McCabe]

The administration has also fired DOJ officials who investigated Donald Trump and has launched a special investigation into January 6th.

[Alison Gill]

And Trump has illegally fired nearly 20 independent inspectors general and even had one who was investigating Elon Musk physically escorted out of her office. This is unjustified.

[Andy McCabe]

Welcome, Everybody. It's Sunday, February 2nd, 2025. I'm Andy McCabe.

[Alison Gill]

And I'm Alison Gill. Andy, there's so much going on with the DOJ and the intelligence community this week and the federal government, you know, workforce writ large.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Due to the firings and OPM memos and executive orders, it's hard to know just where to start. And I think that's by design. But I thought we should start with this Department of Justice thing. Do doing exactly what you and I thought Merrick Garland should have done before he left Main Justice. They have dropped the appeal to the 11th Circuit filed by Jack Smith's team to oppose the dismissal of the classified documents case.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. And Katherine F. And her colleagues at ABC News report the Department of Justice, now under new leadership following Donald Trump's inauguration, has moved to drop its appeal of the classified documents case that once accused Trump of mishandling some of the country's most sensitive secrets. Acting U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida Hayden O'Byrne on Wednesday moved to dismiss the appeal against Trump's former co defendants in the U.S. court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.

[Alison Gill]

Yep. We, I think we said, hey, Merrick Garland, why don't you do this? And then we get volume two of the report, which is now buried.

[Andy McCabe]

Yes.

[Alison Gill]

So as we know, Trump pled not guilty in 2023-40 criminal counts, including violations of nine separate federal laws, for allegedly holding on to classified documents after leaving the White House in 2021 and thwarting investigators efforts to retrieve the documents from his Mar? A Lago estate. Along with longtime aide Walt Nauta and staffer Carlos de Oliveira. Trump pled not guilty in a superseding indictment to allegedly attempting to delete Mar? A Lago surveillance footage. And in July, U.S. district Judge Eileen Cannon, who Trump appointed to the bench, dismissed those indictments, deeming that Special Counsel Jack Smith had been unconstitutionally appointed.

[Andy McCabe]

While Smith appealed Cannon's decision, he was forced to drop the appeal against Trump after Trump won the November election due to a long standing policy against prosecuting sitting presidents. However, Smith continued to pursue the appeal against Nada and de Oliveira prior to his resignation earlier this month. The DOJ's motion to drop the appeal signals an end to its prosecution of Nada and de Oliveira. Cannon last week cited the DOJ's ongoing appeal against Nada and de Oliveira in her decision to block the release of Smith's final report on the case to select members of Congress. And yes, A.G. we told him so. We told them. Holy cow. One of the things that frustrates me so much about this story and many of the other ones we'll cover is people's surprise at how things are turning out. Like so much of this was predictable and this particular one, that the case would go away either immediately on Donald Trump's inauguration or shortly thereafter. I mean, it was so obvious. And so the question for the attorney general and Jack Smith was knowing the case is going to completely evaporate, the appeal will be dropped, the case will never be resuscitated in the district Court. Do we move to get the report out while they still have time? And of course, they did not choose to do that. And here we are. I think it's, I think it's effectively gone forever now.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. Even though some senators are asking for it so that they can provide advice and consent on Kash Patel, which we'll talk about in a little bit. I don't think anybody's going to see this. Volume two of the report.

[Andy McCabe]

Totally agree.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. Also, though, DOJ dropped the Jeff Fortenberry case. So Cheney and Gerstein for Politico say the Justice Department has moved to drop its criminal prosecution of former Representative Jeff Fortenberry, a Nebraska Republican who resigned last year after a conviction on charges that he lied to the FBI. Fortenberry's conviction by a federal jury in Los Angeles in 2022 was subsequently overturned by an appeals court that ruled he should have been tried in Kansas or D.C. the Justice Department renewed the case in D.C. and he was awaiting a new trial when Donald Trump won the 2024 election.

[Andy McCabe]

Trump quickly hailed the move as a sign of how his appointees are reversing what he has described as the politicization of the Justice Department under the Biden administration. Quote, it is great to see that the Department of Justice has dropped the witch hunt against former Congressman Jeff Fortenberry. Trump said in a social Media Post Wednesday afternoon. Jeff and his family were forced to suffer greatly due to the illegal weaponization of our justice system by the radical left Democrats. The charges were totally baseless. That scam is now over.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, the weaponization of our justice system, I see. I see. The trouble for Fortenberry stemmed from a 2016 fundraiser in Glendale, California, raised more than $30,000 for his reelection. And that money, federal investigators concluded, originated with Gilbert Shaguri, a billionaire businessman with French, Lebanese and Nigerian roots who was legally forbidden from donating to US political campaigns.

[Andy McCabe]

But there's a January 6 case the DOJ is not going to drop entirely. Taylor Taranto was arrested for his role in the attack on the Capitol on January 6, but then was also arrested after approaching former President Barack Obama's neighborhood in a van with two firearms and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. The judge wanted to keep him in prison pending his trial on the 4th of January. Six misdemeanor counts, yes.

[Alison Gill]

But the new acting D.C. u.S. Attorney, good old Ed Martin, told the court he's dropping the January 6th charges against Taranto, but would continue to prosecute the charges unrelated to January 6, and instead said he intends to proceed with that trial scheduled to begin May 12th. Ed Martin also posted on social media about the Washington Post reporting on Trump's pardons of the insurrectionists, saying, quote, January 6th, Judge overreaches and is pushed back by the president's lawyers, referring to Department of Justice lawyers as the president's lawyers, then questions Biden's fitness to issue his pardons, basically challenging the legality of Biden's pardons because of his mental fitness. So I don't know. Do you think he'll try to challenge Biden's pardons in court?

[Andy McCabe]

I mean, I think nothing's off the table that would be ridiculous for anyone else under any other circumstances, because as we know, the president's pardon power is absolute. It's really not challengeable. I don't think we've ever been in a situation where anyone even proposed that, oh, we could undermine a pardon, making the argument that the president wasn't, like, fully competent. That argument would go nowhere. It'd be a completely useless effort. But I wouldn't write it off. I mean, here we are, and they're not going to have any cases left to work because they will have dropped them all. So I don't know.

[Alison Gill]

I just think it's fascinating that he dropped the four misdemeanor charges against Tarano for January 6, but not the guns and ammo in the van down by the river charges. I'm just floored by that. Like, that's how. That's how intently they are going in and carving up these January 6th cases.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. Cannot possibly leave a single one in place. Because to do that would be acknowledging on some level that, yes, what happened on January 6 was wrong. And that's really, from my view, that's the purpose of these pardons now. It is an effort to completely whitewash history. It's almost like Trump is pardoning himself. If he erases the convictions against these 1600 people, then nothing bad actually happened, and he'll have an easier time selling this lie that, oh, it was all the prosecutor's fault. It was a love fest of people who just wanted to tour the Capitol.

[Alison Gill]

And then he'll turn around and say that it was the Democrats that stole the 2020 election. He'll have. He. You know, we'll talk about this in a bit because they're standing up. This Ed Martin fellow is standing up an investigation into January 6th.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. And before we leave the issue of Ed Fortenberry, I just wanted to point out, this is like, this is a good example of where justice is now going under this administration. So you basically have the President weighs in on this thing, calls it a scam, calls it baseless, completely ignoring the fact that our constitutional system of jurisprudence is set up to make those determinations. You can't get indicted until your fellow citizens decide there's probable cause to indict you. Then you can't get convicted until you go to you, until you've had an opportunity to go into court, present your own evidence to attack the government's case, present a defense. That's how baseless scam prosecutions get weeded out. And facing those challenges, they don't get brought in the first place. But that's not the case anymore. Any case that grabs the President's attention, which he decides based on whatever whim is floating through his head, he doesn't like it's gone. And another example of this is the reporting we're hearing today about Eric Adams, that his. That the Justice Department main Justice had a meeting with the New York Southern District prosecutors who have indicted Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, for multiple instances of alleged corruption. They had a meeting this week in which they allegedly told that office to figure out a way to drop the case. And then today, Adams's attorneys and the New York prosecutors were all seen walking into the main justice building. So the speculation, it is speculation at this point is that the Justice Department is going to Drop that case against Eric Adams simply because a few days ago, you know, Adams made a trip to Mar A Lago, had a meeting with Trump. Shortly after that, Trump tweeted that he didn't like the case, that Adams is a good guy. That's all it takes to change the course of justice now.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, and I hope Tish James and Alvin Bragg pick that case up and clean it up like they did with the Michael Cohen Trump Stormy Daniels saga.

[Andy McCabe]

We'll see.

[Alison Gill]

Also, Sam Bankman Fried is calling up Trump and asking for.

[Andy McCabe]

I'm sure, well, Ross Elbrecht. He's out. You know, the guy that created Silk Road sold all those guns and drugs to people who killed other people or died from overdoses and things like that. Yeah, he's out now because, you know, Trump likes crypto and the crypto bros. Dig, Ross. So that was how that marriage was made.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, he made that promise to the libertarians when he got booed off stage during. During a campaign stop in front of that party.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

All right, well, we'll be right back momentarily to discuss some really dangerous moves at the FBI, your former organization, Andy.

[Andy McCabe]

Yes.

[Alison Gill]

And the confirmation hearing of Trump's nominee to head the FBI, Kash Patel. So everybody stick around. We'll be right back.

[Andy McCabe]

Welcome back. Okay. The next report comes from Evan Perez and Zachary Cohen at cnn. They say at least six senior FBI leaders have been ordered to retire, resign, or be fired by Monday morning, according to sources briefed on the matter, extending a purge that began last week at the Justice Department across the street from the FBI headquarters. The senior officials are at the executive assistant director level or special agent in charge level. And I'll just say for a moment of clarification, executive assistant directors, there's only a few of them in the bureau. They run what's called a branch. Branches are made up of many divisions. So you might have one EAD that's in charge of all of the national security divisions and then another one who's in charge of all, like criminal and cyber business. These are very, very high ranking officials in the bureau. Special agents in charge are the men and women who run FBI field offices.

[Alison Gill]

Gotcha.

[Andy McCabe]

So these senior officials at the executive assistant director level or special agent in charge level also include those who oversee cyber national security and criminal investigations. Sources told cnn Some were notified while Cash Patel, President Donald Trump's pick to lead the agency, sat answering questions from senators in his confirmation hearing on Thursday.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, and answering questions is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, that's a That's a gross mischaracterization, bad description of what actually happened there. But, and I should also add here, this is a kind of a late breaking story that came out only about an hour before we sat down to record this. Another article came out in cnn, this one from Evan Perez and Josh Campbell, which reported, quote, the Trump administration is set to expand a purge of career law enforcement officials with dozens of of FBI agents who worked on January 6, 2021 US the US Capitol attack and Trump related investigations, as well as some supervisors being evaluated for possible removal as soon as the end of Friday. That's the day we are recording this podcast. The article goes on to say interim leaders at the Justice Department have spent the past week drawing up lists of people whose work at the bureau has earned disfavor with Trump For a variety of reasons. Agents and analysts have been warned by FBI leadership that they may be asked to resign or face termination.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, and Andy, you know, I've been putting out calls to federal employees to contact me on signal and on Proton Mail about what they're seeing and what they're hearing. And I actually got a message from an FBI agent who said they work at the for. Well, I'm just going to say they work at the FBI and they heard word from their asac. What's that?

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, so that's an assistant special agent in charge. So that one person who runs the field office has usually a staff of about, oh, maybe half a dozen assistant special agents in charge who are essentially the second highest ranking people in that field office.

[Alison Gill]

And is it spoken asac?

[Andy McCabe]

Yes. Yeah. Look at you with your FBI mango. Well done. But sac, I've been working for the.

[Alison Gill]

Government for a long time, but SAC.

[Andy McCabe]

Is never referred to as a sack. Not in the Bureau. In other places, yes, but not in the Bureau. All right. Keeping score at home. Write these things down because you'll forget later.

[Alison Gill]

So this agent said that he heard or they heard. I don't, I'm not sure who this person is through their asac, that everyone who worked on Trump investigations will be fired on Monday, which includes this person, either directly or indirectly, actually. And of course, they say the news already hit that Sundberg was forced out and we'll talk about that shortly. But there was another piece of this where this person was ordered to go through all their case files and deliver a list of any non US Citizen that ever popped up in any investigation and deliver that name to the Trump administration. So this is impacting a ton of career professionals at the FBI and That's.

[Andy McCabe]

A fascinating fact to me because it goes back to something I experienced with my staff of executive assistant directors briefing Jeffrey Sessions shortly after Trump arrived during the period of the so called Muslim ban and all that activity, those executive orders that were ultimately abandoned, we were asked by the Attorney General then to produce for him a list of all of the subjects and individuals in our terrorism cases who were not citizens. And we had to explain to him that we don't actually know the answer to that question because we don't collect that information. We investigate people because we have information that indicates they may be involved in federal crim, you know, violations of federal criminal law or may present a threat to national security. We don't start investigations because you're a non citizen or an immigrant or anything like that. And they were enormously frustrated by our refusal, slash, inability to help them pull that sort of information together. So it looks like in round two, they're being much more demonstrative about it and yeah, they'll probably get it this time.

[Alison Gill]

And a little bit of additional breaking news from an agent who wrote to me anonymously. The White House apparently is hiring former FBI employees to advise at headquarters and watch what goes on, to advise as necessary.

[Andy McCabe]

So apparently the hiring freeze doesn't count for Trump friendlies. Yeah. You know, and I haven't been asked to come back and help with that.

[Alison Gill]

You haven't been asked?

[Andy McCabe]

I'm feeling sort of offended by having been left out of that call for help.

[Alison Gill]

But I'm sorry that you were left out.

[Andy McCabe]

I, I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Alison Gill]

Also, Trump transition officials in recent months have signaled plans to push aside leaders promoted by former FBI Director Chris Ray. The leadership changes have drawn internal consternation in part because these officials didn't have anything to do with the prosecutions of Donald Trump, which have been a focus of the President's ire. The personnel moves come as hundreds of FBI agents who were assigned to investigate January 6th Capitol attack and Trump's mishandling, alleged mishandling of classified documents are bracing for the possibility they could be forced out or punished, similar to what has happened to dozens of career Justice Department lawyers. And as you said in that more recent breaking news story, that's exactly what's happening.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. The changes highlight how the new administration has moved quickly to deliver on Trump's vow to strike back at so called weaponization at the FBI. Trump has falsely accused agents of abuse in their court ordered search of his Mar A Lago home and of their treatment of Capitol rioters. Some Agents say the criticism belies the fact that FBI agents and supervisors and follow this closely here, folks can't choose which assignments they are given as a part of their job. That's not a thing in the FBI. You don't get to raise your hand and say, oh, I want to do this work or I don't want to do that work. You just get told what work you're going to do. Sorry. The article goes on to say the FBI workforce is broadly conservative and many agents initially had qualms about being assigned to the Capitol attack and the Trump cases, viewing the prosecutions as heavy handed. People familiar with the matter say some Justice Department lawyers leading the Jan. 6 cases complained that they believed agents sometimes slow walked some of their work.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, did we not cover that in detail on the entire Jack podcast that we did. Hi. Did. Looking at you. Dan Tuono.

[Andy McCabe]

Yes. Steve Tuono. Name has come up many times in our conversations.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, yeah. And the guy who replaced Dan Tuono was just asked to step down as well. We'll go over that in a minute. But the FBI Agents association officials met with FBI Director nominee Kash Patel in recent weeks to raise those concerns, urging him to protect agents who did their work investigating violent crimes with oversight from judges, FBI supervisors and Justice Department lawyers. And that's according to people briefed on that meeting. Patel listened but offered no reassurances. So that's not a surprise.

[Andy McCabe]

No.

[Alison Gill]

During the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday on his nomination, Patel said he doesn't know any of the upcoming personnel plans. Oh, really? Because you talked about it in a meeting.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. Patel at his hearing has rejected accusations from Democrats that he would exact retribution against political enemies, as he has suggested in media appearances in recent years. He said he would make sure the FBI is, quote, de weaponized.

[Alison Gill]

They're going to take your sidearms.

[Andy McCabe]

That's what that statement would mean if you were following logic and the English language. But I'm guessing that's not actually what he meant. Okay. Quote, every FBI employee will be held to the absolute same standard and no one will be terminated for case assignments, he said in response to a question by Senator Richard Blumenthal. Well, that's certainly not consistent with what is apparently happening or about to happen.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, but that was before he got there. You know, he doesn't have any control over what happens before he gets there.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. Agents who carried out the Mar A Lago search in the Trump classified documents case have already faced threats after their names were made public by Trump supporters on social media. The Justice Department has said.

[Alison Gill]

Now, the anxiety inside the FBI is fueled by some of the early moves inside the bureau that began even before Trump's inauguration. Paul Abate, the deputy FBI director then serving as acting director, retired on Inauguration Day, a day of high national security vulnerabilities, actually, after the Trump transition, appointed two senior agents from Newark and New York City to take over as acting director. And Deputy Director Ray, appointed by Trump, resigned nearly three years ahead of the end of his term, which you and I spoke about sternly after Trump vowed to fire him. And shortly after Trump took office. Tom Ferguson, we talked about this last week. Former agent and aide to Jim Jordan arrived at the FBI headquarters as a policy advisor. Jordan had been a staunch FBI critic and led a subcommittee on purported weaponization of government agencies, including the FBI. And that might be one of the people that the anonymous agent who reached out to me is talking about.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, certainly seems like a very recent hire during a period of a hiring freeze. Okay, and from Ryan Riley and his colleagues at NBC, David Sundberg, the assistant Director in charge of the FBI Washington Field office. So pause here. There are three field offices that are so big they're not run by an sac, they're run by an assistant director in charge. And each of those Offices has several SACs beneath the Assistant Director in Charge, or ADIC, as we like to say. Okay, so you're up to speed on the FBI organization? Okay. Sundberg was notified Thursday that he was going to lose his job and is preparing to leave the bureau. According to two senior law enforcement sources, the latest step in an unprecedented purge of top executives at FBI headquarters as well as leadership in FBI field offices across the country. Sundberg is the highest ranking field agent so far to be fired from the FBI. And I will add here, Dave Sundberg is an American patriot, an incredibly smart and hardworking guy who's had a distinguished career in the FBI. I was so thrilled to hear that he was taking over the yay job at wfo, which is a job that I had several years ago. The office deserved him and his proactive hands on leadership. And they will miss him now that he's going to be leaving.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And he was the guy who took over for Dan Tuono that we were talking about earlier. Sundberg joined the FBI in 2002 and was put in charge of the Washington Field Office by Chris Ray in December of 2022. Twenty years later, he's one of the highest profile positions an agent can achieve in the field. At the FBI, Special agents from the Washington Field Office were heavily involved in former special counsel Jack Smith's investigations of now President Trump, as well as a sprawling investigation into the January 6, 2021, attack at the Capitol that resulted in criminal charges against hundreds and hundreds of people. So emails sent by James McHenry, Andy, he's the acting attorney general to those being ousted from their jobs, have included language that reads, given your significant role in prosecuting the president, I do not believe that the leadership of the department can trust you to assist in implementing the president's agenda faithfully.

[Andy McCabe]

Well, I hope folks understand how hollow that rings, right, that people in the FBI and the Department of Justice are not there to serve a president's agenda faithfully. They are there in those jobs to serve the American people, follow the law, expose the truth, and do justice. And that is something that you do for any president of any party who happens to be the leader of the executive branch at the time that you serve. And everyone who's in those jobs knows that you serve the same way for every president and every administration, and that is by putting the people and the challenge of justice first and foremost in your mind. So I think so much of. Well, a few of these statements that we've heard From People like McHenry and Martin really show kind of the true colors, that these are people who have a very, very different understanding and commitment when it comes to matters of justice. And essentially, they're not about justice. They're about serving one man.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And that's serving the president's agenda. Line reminiscent of Ed Martin's. The president's lawyers. When talking about the Department of Justice lawyers, it's evident that they are looking for loyalists. And Andy Frank Fogluzzi, who's a former FBI, put out a photo from the New York Times of a person painting over a wall at Quantico. And the wall was this big wall of, like, a word cloud with, like, commitment to constitution, rule of law, honor and courage and diversity. And, like, all these words that sort of, you know, encapture what the FBI is about. And they were painting over it with gray paint. And that photo, I've shared it on my Blue sky account. That really. That photo hit me hard.

[Andy McCabe]

It's jarring. It really is. I, you know, publishing, announcing and publishing what we called FBI core values was a really important thing that Jim Comey led when he was director. And it was around the time that we kind of redrafted our mission statement and our vision for the Bureau, and the core values were part of that as well. And this was all an effort to really communicate more clearly with the FBI workforce of who we are, what we're committed to. In a way, I think that is so important for any large organization, but certainly one with such an important mission. And the idea that these values of integrity and honesty and diversity was one of them, are things that are, like, somehow shameful, need to be covered up and purged from the minds of everyone who has seen them. It's just. It's just shocking and sad. As someone who still holds those values very close to my heart.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And that wall was a bright white wall with the. All the words were different sizes and different colors. And the paint that's going over it is this dull gray.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Paint. It's just. That was a hard. That was a hard photo to see.

[Andy McCabe]

Yep.

[Alison Gill]

All right, well, everybody, we're gonna talk a little bit about Kash Patel, your favorite person in the whole world. Andy, I know you have. Like you. I know. I'm pretty sure you're the president of the Kash Patel fan Club there in D.C. we're besties.

[Andy McCabe]

We talk all the time in the DMP area.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And, yeah, your meetings, I think you have at, like a. A local, like, yarn store where people can knit and talk about cool things. Yeah, for sure. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about him and his. His confirmation hearing and his ability or lack thereof to quote, unquote, answer questions, as CNN put it. But we have to take a quick break, so stick around. We foreign. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. All right, let's talk a little bit more about Cash Patel's confirmation hearing. Mentioned it briefly there in the B block. But let's talk about that hearing. It took place this past Thursday. BBC actually reports that the nominee for FBI director, Cash Patel or Kosh Cash, I don't know. There's a dollar sign in it. I don't know how to pronounce. Pronounce. That former federal prosecutor is a real nice description of him. And a Trump administration aide was pressed on his prior comments praising those involved in the January 6th Capitol riots, as well as his ties to the QAnon movement. During Patel's five hour hearing following Gabbards on Thursday, the former prosecutor came under fire for his previous support of Capitol rioters. He once helped promote sales of a charity song recorded by the January 6th rioters in prison, including some who had been convicted of violence against police officers. Several Democratic senators tried to push Patel about his ties to the rioters. Quote, was President Donald Trump wrong to give a blanket clemency to the January 6th defendants, that's Senator Dick Durbin, quote, I've always rejected any violence against law enforcement, including that group, any violence against law enforcement. On January 6th, that's what Patel said. Still, at several points, Patel declined to criticize Trump's pardons of those same rioters who assaulted officers.

[Andy McCabe]

Democrats continued to press him on his previous statements and activities. Patel wrote a book called Government Gangsters, laying out his theories about a so called deep state targeting Donald Trump. He has also expressed sympathy with the QAnon movement, a conspiracy theory which, broadly speaking, claims that a ring of satanic pedophiles operates inside the highest levels of government, media and business. Yes, I just said satanic pedophiles operates inside the government, but that's what they believe. Okay, so let's for a minute listen to Adam Schiff during Patel's hearing.

[C]

Mr. Patel may be, I don't know, but he may be the first nominee for FBI Director in history who felt it necessary to plead the Fifth to say that he wouldn't testify to a grand jury because it might incriminate him. Maybe the first nominee for FBI Director ever to feel necessity of pleading the Fifth.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, that was a pretty good viral moment when he was like, you're going to be, you want to be the FBI Director. And you pled, you pled the Fifth during grandchildren grand jury testimony. And I think that was in the classified documents case.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

And I also thought this was a particularly intense moment. Let's listen.

[C]

You're being considered for Director of the FBI. And, and here you did no diligence to find out whether people you were associating with, now the President, United States in songs were convicted of attacking police officers. Is that who we want running the FBI? I want you to turn around. There are Capitol police officers behind you. They're guarding us. Take a look at them right now. Turn around.

[Andy McCabe]

I'm looking at you. You're talking to me.

[C]

No, no, look at them. I want you to look at them if you can, if you have the courage to look them in the eye, Mr. Patel, and tell them you're proud of what you did. Tell them you're proud that you raised money off of people that assaulted their colleagues, that pepper sprayed them, that beat them with poles. Tell them you're proud of what you did. Mr. Mattel. They're right there. They're guarding you today.

[Andy McCabe]

I don't know what else to even add to that. Right. This, this guy couldn't with a straight face, turn around and look. These, these officers who sacrificed themselves and put themselves in Danger for people like him every day could not look them in the eye and say what he was asked to say.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And he's like, look at him. They're here to protect you today. Why don't you look at them and tell them that you, you know, you're fine with these pardons of people who, who attacked their colleagues and he couldn't do it. Also, Senators Dick Durbin and Adam Schiff and every Democrat on the Senate Judiciary wrote to the acting attorney general and asked for access to volume two of Jack Smith's final report because it includes grand jury testimony from Kash Patel. Once again, something that you and I said they should do before January 20th.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Quote, the committee cannot adequately fulfill its constitutional duty without reviewing the details of the report of Mr. Patel's testimony under oath, which is necessary to evaluate Mr. Patel's truthfulness, trustworthiness, and regard for the protection of classified information. This is of utmost importance as Mr. Patel has been nominated to hold one of the nation's most important law enforcement positions, in which his core responsibilities, if confirmed, include seeking and telling the truth, maintaining the trust of Congress and the American people, and protecting our nation's most sensitive information. Once again, in a letter that might have been better if it were written.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

To more friendly people before January 20th. I, I, we, you know, you and I talked about this. I talked about this on the Daily Beans, too. Like, hey, Dick Durbin, get, write a letter to Merrick Garland saying, hey, drop that appeal.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Release volume two, or at least send it to us so that we can provide advice and consent. So they've decided to do it now on January 28th.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. A little too little and a little too late. And now we're stuck with this hearing in which the person proposed to lead the nation, and I would argue the world's preeminent law enforcement organization just literally sat there and made statements that are provably false. Look, he. So he said, I don't know if you saw the exchange between he and Amy Klobuchar where she really pushes him on whether or not he said that he's going to close headquarters on day one and then reopen it as a museum of the deep state day two. So when he finally got around to answering that question, he attacked her as having committed some awful act that's defamatory. How dare you say that I ever said such a thing? Literally. We've all seen the video of him saying that a hundred times. Every news story about Kash Patel runs that piece of video of him on A podcast making that exact claim he was grilled about his support for and his involvement in the making of that January 6th choir recording. And it was read a quote that he made on Steve Bannon's podcast, in which five times in the course of the quote, he refers to, we did this, we did that, we recorded it, we worked it over in post, we digitized it, we put it out. And he said he had nothing to do with that. And his use of the word we in that sentence, he didn't actually mean himself and someone else. I'm sorry, what? What do you mean by we? The we small man over in the corner.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. As my dad used to say when you got a mouse in your pocket. What do you mean we exactly?

[Andy McCabe]

I mean, the guy just said one thing after another that was completely unbelievable. So when he says, I'm not aware of any retribution that's being taken against people who work the January six cases, like, really hard to believe that coming out of his mouth.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, yeah. Nothing he says can be trusted. And like you said, he's going to lead the most preeminent law enforcement agency, probably globally.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Has a history of not. Well, he refused to cooperate with the January 6th committee, so it doesn't comply with congressional oversight. Not a single senator on the right stood up and said, hey, when you're FBI director, you actually have to comply with congressional oversight. Like, no.

[Alison Gill]

Well, that's because the Republicans in the Senate aren't going to provide oversight to the FBI.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. Not a single Republican has ever said it publicly, stated even a concern with Cash Patel. So people ask me, is he going to get confirmed? Yes, he's going to get confirmed.

[Alison Gill]

I just hope every single Democrat votes against him.

[Andy McCabe]

Oh, my gosh, if they don't. I mean, please. I don't know. You could have found anyone less qualified, less capable, and more obviously disqualifiable than this guy.

[Alison Gill]

He's anti qualified.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We live in the age where qualifications are disqualifying. And he is the. He's the poster child of that.

[Alison Gill]

He is. All right, we'll be back with some more on the Justice Department's rightward shift after this quick break. So stick around. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody, welcome back. All right, let's turn to reporting from Sadie German and Ryan Barber at the Wall Street Journal. And let's keep in mind, the Wall Street Journal is a pretty right leaning publication. They say even before Donald Trump's portrait could be restored to the walls of the Justice Department, interim officials began driving a conservative U turn at the agency. They replaced a Biden era memo telling prosecutors to show leniency to some drug offenders with a new policy calling for the pursuit of the most serious charges and the stiffest penalties for all crimes. They halted much of the department's civil rights and environmental work, and they transferred more than 15 career employees to relatively marginal positions, part of a broader effort to ultimately thin the workforce. And that was just the first week.

[Andy McCabe]

Many department employees are on edge as they await Senate confirmation of Pam Bondi, Trump's nominee for the attorney general. Her chief of staff, Chad Meisell, is leading the department until then, along with Acting Attorney General James McHenry, a longtime immigration lawyer and temporary deputy Emile Beauvais, who previously served as one of Trump's criminal defense attorneys. As part of the department's pivots, Maisel issued a memo Friday sharply limiting the prosecutions of people accused of blocking access to abortion clinics, calling such cases the, quote, prototypical example of federal weaponization.

[Alison Gill]

I would call it a prototypical example of prosecuting crimes. There is that way to look at it, I suppose. Mizell put an immediate hold on civil rights litigation. You and I talked about this last week, meaning department lawyers can't take additional steps in many existing cases to ensure that the president's appointees or designees have the opportunity to decide whether to initiate any new cases. That's according to a memo viewed by the Wall Street Journal. Another memo told lawyers not to complete any settlements and suggested that the new administration could reconsider dozens of consent decrees meant to overhaul local police departments. That was a priority in the Biden administration, right? Some of the Justice Department employees reassigned or demoted last week included people who advised on the two prosecutions of Trump or work closely with Biden appointees in areas that the new leadership wants to overhaul or revamp or get rid of altogether. Those reassigned included lawyers who held senior roles within the national security and criminal divisions. And you and I talked about that last week as well.

[Andy McCabe]

We did, we did. Another official removed from his post was the chief of the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section, which prosecutes election related offenses and handles some of the most politically sensitive investigations of public officials. Current employees said they believed one goal of the shakeup is to pressure some career staffers with civil service protections to leave on their own. Others have already left for private firms and other jobs. Department officials are making plans to send more prosecutors to federal offices on the southern border, people familiar with the matter said. And of course, we discussed that last week as well Yep.

[Alison Gill]

And the Wall Street Journal also brings up things we talked about last week, including the new interim U.S. attorneys in D.C. and New York eastern and Southern districts, the pardoning of the insurrectionists and the government wide hiring freeze. Lawyers in the antitrust division are worried that the freeze, which nixed the addition of five experienced lawyers in San Francisco, will SAP resources needed to litigate, for instance, major cases against Apple, Live Nation Entertainment and Visa. The Trump administration elevated a young trial attorney to helm the division for now, and in a short video meeting last week he expressed support for continuing that litigation, according to people familiar the Justice Department also rescinded positions offered through its Honors program to young lawyers fresh out of law school or prestigious judicial clerkships. It also canceled unpaid summer internships for law students who had accepted volunteer positions after the election.

[Andy McCabe]

And now Hannah Rabinowitz at CNN is reporting that more than a dozen officials who worked on the criminal investigations into Donald Trump have been fired, according to sources familiar with the matter. A letter from Acting Attorney General James McHenry to the officials said they cannot be trusted to faithfully implement Trump's agenda. Quote, you played a significant role in prosecuting President Trump. The proper functioning of government critically depends on the trust superior officials place in their subordinates, mchenry wrote. Given your significant role in prosecuting the president, I do not believe that the leadership of the department can trust you to assist in implementing the president's agenda faithfully. And we talked about that a few minutes ago. It's just. It's just tragic, really.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, definitely. The firings come as the Trump administration is taking concrete steps to investigate prosecutors who oversaw the criminal case against January 6th defendants after Trump vowed to seek retribution as a key pledge of his campaign, according to multiple sources. Ed Martin, the interim U.S. attorney in D.C. has launched an investigation into prosecutors who brought obstruction charges under US Code 1512 c2 against some rioters that were ultimately tossed because of a Supreme Court decision last summer, which we know as the Fisher case. Referring to the effort as a special project, Martin wrote in the memo issued Monday that the attorneys should hand over, quote, all information you have related to the use of 1512 charges, including all files, documents, notes, emails and other information to two of the office's long term prosecutors who must submit a report on the probe by Friday.

[Andy McCabe]

The move comes as the Justice Department has already seen a dramatic shakeup as officials connected to high profile investigations have been reassigned, including the now dismissed case against Trump himself for his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. Prosecutors who worked on January 6 cases told CNN that the memo raises concerns that Trump's DOJ is beginning to, quote, investigate the investigators as he's long threatened. One person who worked on the Capitol riot cases told CNN that prosecutors don't know whether this investigation is looking into bringing criminal or civil charges and that some are starting to hire their own lawyers to work in their defense. A senior administration official familiar with the Martin email describes this as a, quote, fact finding mission, noting a, quote, huge waste of resources.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. That's what they called the investigation into my podcast, Andy, a fact finding investigation.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Martin, as we know, a hardline socially conservative activist and commentator who was an organizer of Stop the Steal, was tapped for this role last week. We've talked a great deal about Ed Martin so far since starting the job. He's praised Trump for issuing mass pardons for January 6th defendants. And he also successfully lobbied a judge to toss out travel restrictions imposed on members of the Oath Keepers after they were released from prison, saying, quote, if a judge decided that Jim Biden, General Mark Milley or another individual were forbidden to visit America's Capitol even after receiving a last minute preemptive pardon from the former president, I believe most Americans would object. The individuals referenced in our motion have had their sentences commuted, period, end of sentence. And he misspelled capital, by the way. And, you know, I don't think you would need to tell Jim Biden or Mark Milley to stay away from the Capitol because they didn't organize an attack on it.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. Don't remember them ever getting convicted of how many.

[Alison Gill]

Seditious.

[Andy McCabe]

Seditious conspiracy. Yeah, well, maybe I missed that. Okay, there you go.

[Alison Gill]

But, you know, Mark Milley's got a pardon, so whoop, whoop.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

And Joe Biden is immune because he was president. So good luck. All right, next up, we're going to discuss inspectors general and we'll take some listener questions. Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Andy McCabe]

Welcome back. All right, let's talk about the Friday Night massacre. The Washington Post reports President Donald Trump on Saturday night defended his removal of a slew of inspectors general Friday night as lawmakers in both parties raised concerns about the late night purge and questioned a decision that appeared to violate federal law. Quote, it's a very common thing to do. Trump claimed to reporters on Air Force One traveling to Florida in his first comments after a decision that caused alarm among government watchdogs and members of Congress. Quote, I don't know them, he said, even though many of those he fired were people that he appointed during his first term, quote, but Some people thought that some were unfair or some were not doing their job. It's a very standard thing to do. Close quote, and I will insert here, it is not a standard thing to do. It does not happen. No president that I can think of from either party has ever done this upon entering office.

[Alison Gill]

But, yeah, the only person who ever did anything like this was Donald Trump during his first.

[Andy McCabe]

That's. That's right.

[Alison Gill]

That guy did it.

[Andy McCabe]

Okay.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, that guy. The inspectors general were notified late Friday by emails from White House Personnel Director Sergio Gore that, quote, due to changing priorities, they have been terminated immediately, according to people familiar with the actions, who, like others, spoke on a condition of anonymity. The watchdogs at Homeland Security and Justice were the only cabinet level inspectors general spared. Oversight of the government's largest agencies was left in limbo Saturday as the Senate confirmed watchdogs at the Departments of Defense, State, Transportation, Labor, Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Energy, Commerce, treasury and Agriculture, as well as the epa, Small Business Administration and Social Security Administration were sacked.

[Andy McCabe]

The top Democrats from nearly two dozen House committees signed a joint letter to Trump on Saturday afternoon defending the independence of the federal watchdogs and pointing out that removing them without notifying Congress violates the law. Trump defended Horowitz. He's the Department of Justice inspector general, praising a 2018 report that he had done in which he was critical of FBI Director James B. Comey and other leaders over their 2016 investigation into the Trump campaign, even as he also said the FBI was justified in opening the investigation. Quote, Michael Horowitz, we're keeping. Trump said on Saturday. I thought his report on Comey was incredible, actually. Such an accurate, well done report.

[Alison Gill]

Trump also left in place Joseph Cuffari Jr. The embattled inspector general at Department of Homeland Security, the government's third largest agency. A Trump appointee, Cufari, was under investigation for years by an independent panel of watchdogs, which found in October that he misled the Senate during his nomination process and committed other misconduct during his five years in office. The Chairman of the Councils of Inspector General on Integrity and Efficiency challenged the White House's action in a letter to Gore late Friday. Quote, I recommend that you reach out to the White House counsel to discuss your intended course of action. At this point, we do not believe the actions taken are legally sufficient to dismiss presidentially appointed Senate confirmed inspectors general. That's what Hannibal Mike Ware wrote. Inspector general of the Small Business Administration and acting inspector General at the Social Security Administration and the inspector general of.

[Andy McCabe]

The US Department of Agriculture, Phyllis Fong was physically removed from her Washington D.C. office on Monday after refusing to comply with the conditions of her termination. A 22 year veteran of the department, which has a broad mandate to investigate food safety and animal welfare, Fong's office has been investigating Elon Musk's brain implant startup called Neuralink. Wow. Coincidence.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. I wonder whose idea was it to go physically remove her from her office? Ah, wow. You know, we thought that when he fired five inspectors general back in 2019, 2020, something like that, we thought that was a problem. This is all of them except Cufari, who lied to Congress and was under criminal investigation, and Horowitz, who we all know.

[Andy McCabe]

And I can't, I can't walk away from this story without giving a shout out to my man, Senator Chuck Grassley, for exhibiting what I think is a, is a profoundly impressive level of spinal flexibility when asked about the firings. Now, Grassley, you must understand, historically this is the watchdog's advocate in the Senate. He is the guy who basically interacts with the IGs, and the IGs are the people that feed him the information that he then uses to kind of beat up the executive branch. And this is part of the oversight process. I'm not suggesting that that's untoward. It's annoying when you're the, when you're the target of his, of his rage. So here's a guy who's really pinned his existence to the righteousness of the IG program, how important it is, the whistleblower, all that stuff. And when asked, he said, well, basically, I don't know. And you know, there are some good reasons that people might need to be removed. So we'll have to see if that's the case. Like not even a, not a peep of standing up for the IG system, the regulations, and of course the rule that requires a 30 day notice. He made some kind of bland comment about, I think we were supposed to get 30 days notice or something like that. And. But yeah, he's not writing any furious letters to the White House that I'm aware of, which is his normal process.

[Alison Gill]

Also, I just got a little information from an anonymous source. All of the agents who investigated January 6th in Mar? A Lago were just physically walked out of the Washington field office today.

[Andy McCabe]

Wow, what a day of disgrace for that office. That is just absolutely heartbreaking.

[Alison Gill]

Almost 90 agents.

[Andy McCabe]

Wow. Unbelievable.

[Alison Gill]

So by the time you hear this podcast, I'm sure you will see that story in, in the majors.

[Andy McCabe]

Wow, that is just absolutely disgusting.

[Alison Gill]

So they didn't even wait till Monday?

[Andy McCabe]

No. No.

[Alison Gill]

Amy, I'm sorry. This has to be heartbreaking for. I mean, you spent decades at.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

At this.

[Andy McCabe]

I mean, it was just, it's just, it's just revolting. It's so hard to watch. I. I know I have some idea, probably better than most people of how they feel right now, having been on the front end of getting kicked out of that fine organization by this person who's now our president. That's terrible. It's a really, really hard day. It's. They're about to enter a period of intense anxiety and fear for their families and their income and their. And their career prospects. Certainly some of them are probably not quite ready to retire, not retirement eligible, and therefore will now lose their retirement pension that you're entitled to get after 20 years of service once you've reached age 50 as a special agent. It's like a special thing that federal law enforcement officers qualify for. Yeah. It's just there. This is going to be a very, very tough time for them. And my heart goes out to them. And, you know, I don't even know what to say.

[Alison Gill]

I'm sorry, my friend, but let's answer a quick question or two from listeners before we get out of here. And if you have a question or you want to send Andy a virtual hug, you can do that by clicking on the link in the show notes. This is a devastating day for the agency.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, it really is.

[Alison Gill]

And for the Department of Justice. So we want to field your questions. So send them to us. Again, that link is in the show notes. Andy, what questions do we have today?

[Andy McCabe]

So many good ones this week. Super relevant people with bringing their own experience kind of to the. To the question. So this one comes to us from a person who wanted to be identified only as a former federal employee, 36 year career in the federal government. And this person says, hi, Andrew and Allison. I listened to every episode of the Jack podcast and thought it was outstanding and I'm so glad that you're doing this. Follow on podcast My question concerns the non SES employees of the Justice Department. I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether you think they should try to stay on to make sure as many laws are followed as possible or whether they should leave, which if enough of them do, could slow things down as well. This is a personal decision for everyone, but I'm hoping that you could discuss the pros and cons of both strategies and how this might apply or not to other federal agencies. Thanks for all your excellent work and for your services. Former federal employees. So, I mean, right on the heels of that last piece of news we put out, so in the case of law enforcement officers and the FBI, well, generally my feeling is always stay. You're there, you're in the right job. You are drawn to this calling. You do it well with integrity and honesty and the intensity that it requires to protect the American people. You should stay in the job that you love and that you deserve and that you do well. It's particularly poignant for people like these agents who are working towards this moment of being able to qualify for retirement and most of whom leave at a. By age 51 to pursue second careers. They all come into the organization as young people and they, and they're, they intend to stay until they're 50 and have at least 21, 20 years of service. So you're at the, if you're at the end of that amazing experience, you should try to get to that finish line. But it's hard. Right. I think especially in this administration, if you're in any sort of federal employment, you should know what your own red lines are. And when you get to one of those red lines, when someone is asking you to do something that you think is illegal or immoral or dishonest, you should, then you should think about leaving because you should not let these people compromise who you are and what you believe in.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I agree. I said that if it weren't illegal or untoward to fire you, they wouldn't be trying to get you to resign voluntarily. And I am also in the stay column, but also for other legal reasons. And I've talked about this in my substack@ militiarote.com, there's no guarantee that there's any funding for anybody's pay going past March 14th.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right.

[Alison Gill]

I think it's unlawful to offer anyone pay past that date when there's not a continuing resolution in place yet. And that's just one of many considerations that a lot of federal employees are having to make as they think about this. The unions are also against it. I tend to side with what the unions say. Nteu afge say, you know, hold your ground.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. And I agree with former Fed here that, like, this is a very personal decision. There's a lot of factors that weigh heavily on people's minds when they're trying to figure this out. And so I don't, I don't begrudge anybody for making a different decision at all.

[Alison Gill]

No, I don't begrudge I don't judge anyone for doing whatever that they think is best for them. Me personally, that's what I would do. I would encourage others to. To. To do that as well. But I'm not going to judge anybody.

[Andy McCabe]

Right.

[Alison Gill]

As a practical question, especially now that they're offering. Vera. They're giving. OPM is giving agencies the ability to offer early retirement.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

To people, which is generally something you can only get through a big process that you have to go through OPM to get. But they're. They're allowing for that. So, yeah, agree.

[Andy McCabe]

You gotta make your own choice. That's. That's first and foremost. But there are legal implications to resigning and you lose a lot of your standing to challenge the terms of your termination if you. If you voluntarily walk away. And again, I think, as you point out, A.J. like, this whole thing seems so shady. Like, how much confidence can you really have in these people delivering on the assertions that are made in some rando email that just popped into your box one day? I'm not super confident that any of that stuff will come true, but I'm a bit of a skeptic.

[Alison Gill]

Well, yeah, no, you'd be trusting Elon Musk.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

But anyway, thanks for that question. And, guys, we're out of time, unfortunately. We're going to answer more questions next week for you. I'm sure as soon as the fire hose, which will be on for the first couple of weeks, calms down a little bit, we'll have more time. For listener questions, you can send them to us by clicking on the link in the show notes. And we appreciate you sending that information to us. Any information you have, any questions you have, and just any thoughts that you might want to send us, we appreciate them. We do read them all.

[Andy McCabe]

That's absolutely right. So for those of you going through this as federal employees, whether you're FBI employees or anybody else, we feel terrible for you and you shouldn't be treated this way. You deserve better. I know that's hard. That doesn't help you pay the bills or put food on the table. But there are a lot of people out there who will. Who I'm sure agree with that, and they're thinking about you, and they will support you. You have friends in the world. It might not seem like it tonight, but you really do.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for listening to Unjustified. We'll be back in your ears next week. And until then, I'm Allison Gill.

[Andy McCabe]

And I'm Andy McCabe.

[Alison Gill]

Unjustified is written and executive produced by Allison Gill with additional research and analysis by Andrew McCabe. Sound design and editing is by Molly Hockey with art and web design by Joelle Reader at Moxie Design Studios. The theme music for Unjustified is written and performed by Ben Folds and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned independent podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information please visit mswmedia.com.