UnJustified – Episode 60: "Ed Martin Charged" (feat. Liz Oyer)

Date: March 15, 2026
Hosts: Alison Gill & Andy McCabe
Guest: Liz Oyer, former DOJ Pardon Attorney

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing transformation and erosion of norms within the Department of Justice under the Trump administration, with a focus on the conduct of Ed Martin (DOJ Pardon Attorney) and a controversial new rule proposed by Attorney General Pam Bondi. Former Pardon Attorney Liz Oyer joins to offer insider expertise on justice, oversight, the weaponization of the DOJ, and the risks to civil liberties and the rule of law. Key stories include Ed Martin's ethics investigation, challenges to state bar oversight of DOJ lawyers, the use of AI in legal filings, election-related subpoenas, and the broader consequences for American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Erosion of the Pardon Process and Ed Martin's Role

• Background on the DOJ Pardon Attorney
  • The role of pardon attorney was historically a nonpartisan, career position aimed at ensuring fair, merit-based clemency recommendations to the president.
    • Liz Oyer: "Historically, [pardon attorney] has never been a political appointment... It's always been a career, nonpartisan official who is put in this role of advising the president about how to use his... power in a way that's not political... that's fair and equitable.” (03:42)
• Shift Under Trump & Ed Martin
  • Oyer describes her abrupt removal and Martin's installation, after which the office was sidelined, and pardons became rewards for MAGA loyalists rather than the deserving.
    • Oyer: “The career professionals... are not being asked to do the same type of vetting for pardon candidates that for many, many years has always been done.” (06:08)
• Notable Examples of Abuses
  • Blanket pardons to 77 people involved in the 2020 'stop the steal' efforts, even if not prosecuted. Pardons for corrupt officials like Sheriff Scott Jenkins and embezzler Michelle Fe, each without serving their sentences or making restitution—both with MAGA connections.
    • Oyer: “There is no prior administration that would have granted pardons under those circumstances...” (10:17)
    • Oyer quoting Martin: “His mantra when it comes to pardons is ‘no MAGA left behind.’ ” (07:52)

2. Ed Martin’s Ethics Scandal & D.C. Bar Investigation

• Overview of the Charges
  • Martin sent a threatening letter to Georgetown Law over DEI curriculum, lacking legal authority. Then, upon the bar complaint, he ignored Disciplinary Council inquiries and tried to (improperly) appeal directly to the D.C. Court of Appeals, earning further charges.
    • Oyer: “He sort of doubled down and made it a whole lot worse... by refusing to engage in the discipline process... then tried... an ex parte conversation with the judges... asking for the Bar Council to be suspended.” (12:23)
• Seriousness & Slow Pace of Proceedings
  • This is past the complaint stage—formal disciplinary charges are pending before the D.C. Court of Appeals, but resolution will take years.

3. Pam Bondi's Proposed Rule – Shielding DOJ Lawyers from Oversight

• Nature & Purpose of the Rule
  • Would allow the Attorney General to suspend state bar investigations of DOJ (and former DOJ) lawyers, purporting to handle attorney discipline within the department.
    • Oyer: “Pam Bondi has essentially proposed a new rule that will eliminate the authority of state bar investigations... and allow her instead to intervene...” (17:41)
    • Oyer: “It is very transparently a move to try to protect all of these high level current and former officials from any type of oversight for their conduct.” (19:26)
• Implications & Public Response
  • The rule threatens independent oversight, contradicts federal law requiring DOJ lawyers to follow state bar rules, and invites legal challenges from state bars, other lawyers, and possibly federal lawsuits.
    • Oyer: “...there is a federal statute that... says that DOJ lawyers specifically are required to abide by the state bar rules.” (24:00)
• What Can the Public Do?
  • Open comment period at regulation.gov; listeners urged to submit comments opposing the rule, especially current/former DOJ lawyers.
    • Oyer: “Anyone who is concerned about this can go to that website and leave a comment.” (20:15)
    • Gill: “These public comment periods work... We saw it before with the VA disability rule.” (21:38)

4. Broader DOJ Breakdown & Consequences

• Loss of Ethics Infrastructure
  • Pam Bondi eradicated key oversight positions including ethics and professional responsibility offices.
• Impact on Justice and National Security
  • The exodus of expertise, especially in national security and cybersecurity, and politically-motivated firings, threaten DOJ function and national safety.
    • Oyer: “...the decimation of expertise within the department... particularly national security, cybersecurity areas, where there are many active threats...” (26:56)
• Possibility of Rebuilding and Hope
  • Hope for eventual rebuilding exists, but will require intentional, public-facing reforms and time.
    • Oyer: “That expertise can be rebuilt, but it will take a long time to rebuild it... I do think there is an opportunity to build back a stronger and better Justice Department.” (27:12)
    • McCabe: “Hope is hard to find at some times. But... I have no doubt we will get through this period, but... how long does it take to recover that sort of expertise, the trust, the integrity that's necessary to do, to do this work?” (29:28)

5. Liz Oyer's Advocacy and Social Media Outreach

• Motivation & Impact
  • Oyer regards her public legal explanations as a continuation of public service, emphasizing accessible education about the rule of law.
    • Oyer: “I view it as a continuation of my public service... People have expressed so much gratitude that someone who has personal knowledge and expertise of how this system is supposed to work is taking the time to break it down...” (30:58)
• Return to DOJ?
  • Oyer expresses willingness to return, eager to help rebuild the department post-crisis.
    • Oyer: “Yeah, I would like to be part of the rebuilding, actually. I have a lot of ideas about how it could be rebuilt...” (32:26)

6. Political Weaponization – Election Records & Federal Overreach

• 2020 Arizona Election Subpoenas
  • The Trump administration issued broad grand jury subpoenas for records related to Arizona’s 2020 state Senate election audit of Maricopa County, despite there being no proof of significant fraud.
    • Gill: “...the Senate audit. Now, the Justice Department noted in a 2021 memo that such audits are exceedingly rare...” (37:41)
• Federal Power Grab
  • The DOJ sued states for access to voter rolls, and Trump's team involved the CIA and DNI in domestic election-related law enforcement—unprecedented and likely illegal.
    • McCabe: “The CIA cannot investig anything in the United States. The DNI can't investigate anything anywhere, ever...” (43:13)
• Weaponization of Intelligence Agencies
  • DNI Tulsi Gabard’s involvement in domestic raids and intelligence gathering for Trump’s election claims is flagged as dangerous and outside legal scope.

7. AI Mishaps in Federal Litigation

• AUSA Resignation over AI Brief Blunder
  • Assistant U.S. Attorney Rudy Renfer (EDNC) quit after submitting a brief generated by AI, containing fabricated quotes and legal errors, then failing to fully disclose the lapse to the judge.
    • Judge Numbers: “...Renfer's explanation's quote, strained credulity. That's judge speak for I don't believe you...” (48:42)
    • Gill: “It's not just him filing an AI brief. It's him saying, ‘I didn't mean to,’ and... failing to mention that he used AI at all. That lack of candor, right, right there is really, really serious.” (54:02)
• Implications for Legal Practice
  • The case underscores the importance of truthfulness and oversight in legal filings, further highlighting DOJ’s internal oversight breakdown.

8. Listener Q&A & Satirical DOJ Segment Names

• Questions Covered
  • Potential consequences (and legal recourse) for experts fired from DOJ (due to Iran policy expertise, referencing federal protections for wrongful termination)
  • The limits of personal liability for federal officials (Bivens, scope of employment)
• Humorous Segment Names Proposed:
  • "All Quack and No Bill," "Flaw and Order," "DoJED Report," "Just Ice"

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Pardon Process:
  “There is no prior administration that would have granted pardons under those circumstances to people who were public officials.” — Liz Oyer (10:17)

• On Ed Martin’s ‘MAGA’ Philosophy:
  “His mantra when it comes to pardons is ‘no MAGA left behind.’ ” — Liz Oyer (07:52)

• On Bondi’s Oversight Power Grab:
  “It is very transparently a move to try to protect all of these high level current and former officials from any type of oversight for their conduct.” — Liz Oyer (19:26)

• On Diminished Trust & Expertise:
  “Hope is hard to find at some times. But... I have no doubt we will get through this period, but the question is how diminished we will be in that moment and how long does it take to recover that sort of expertise, the trust, the integrity...” — Andy McCabe (29:28)

• On Liz Oyer’s Public Legal Education:
  “I view it as a continuation of my public service... I view it as educational, not political, and I view it as a way that I can continue to serve my fellow citizens.” — Liz Oyer (30:58)

Important Timestamps

• Ed Martin Under Investigation & DOJ Pardon Process Changes: (02:34–07:34)
• Examples of Abusive Pardons: (07:34–10:06)
• Bar Complaints & Ethics Charges Against Ed Martin: (10:41–14:10)
• Pam Bondi’s Rule, Impact & Call for Public Comment: (17:17–21:38)
• Structural Dismantling of DOJ Oversight Offices: (24:00–26:56)
• Rebuilding DOJ & Messaging to the Public: (26:56–32:42)
• 2020 Election Subpoenas and Federal Overreach: (34:51–45:17)
• AI-Generated Legal Filing Scandal: (47:53–55:19)
• Listener Questions on DOJ Terminations & Liability: (57:33–66:57)

Final Takeaways

• The DOJ’s internal guardrails are under threat, both from politicized appointments and from explicit rule changes like Bondi's, which aim to eliminate independent oversight.
• Ed Martin’s conduct and the nature of recent presidential pardons exemplify the abandonment of established norms and merit-based process at DOJ.
• The public still has some avenues to resist these changes, especially active participation during regulatory comment periods.
• The demoralization of DOJ staff, exodus of expertise, and lack of trust in government institutions are deep problems—yet rebuilding and reform remain possible if prioritized and enacted in future administrations.
• The episode closes with a blend of dark humor, listener interaction, and reminders of the essential nature of laughter and community amidst persistent turmoil.

For more, visit mswmedia.com
Leave your public comment opposing the DOJ lawyer immunity rule at regulation.gov