House of Cards

Summary

UnJustified Podcast Episode Summary: "House of Cards"

Podcast Information:

• Title: UnJustified
• Host/Author: MSW Media
• Description: The creator of Mueller, She Wrote, Allison Gill, and former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, document the erosion of civil liberties and the rule of law under Trump's Department of Justice.
• Episode: House of Cards
• Release Date: June 22, 2025

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I. Introduction

UnJustified opens with hosts Allison Gill and Andy McCabe delving directly into the pressing legal and political issues surrounding the Trump administration’s actions within the Department of Justice (DoJ). The episode skips introductory remarks and advertisements to provide listeners with an in-depth analysis of recent developments impacting civil liberties and the rule of law.

II. Kilmar Abrego Garcia's Detention Hearing

The episode begins with a detailed discussion of the detention hearing for Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an individual charged with human smuggling offenses.

Key Points:

• Hearing Overview: The hearing took place in the Middle District of Tennessee, presided over by U.S. Magistrate Judge Barbara Holmes.
• Government's Case: The Department of Justice (DoJ) presented Garcia as a small player within a larger human smuggling conspiracy linked to the MS-13 gang.
• Defense’s Strategy: Garcia’s defense team questioned the legitimacy of the evidence, highlighting potential leniency deals offered to higher-ranking conspirators involved in the operation.

Notable Quote:

Adam Klassfeld [02:53]: "In the context of a Trump administration that has gone all out on trying to expel undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes, here are two people who are getting immigration assistance in order to cooperate in the investigation of Mr. Abrego, who has never been convicted of any crime."

Insights:

• Cooperation Deals Critique: McCabe and Klassfeld argue that the government is improperly leveraging cooperation deals with convicted MS-13 members to target an unconvicted individual, undermining the fairness of the legal process.
• Hearsay Concerns: The defense pointed out multiple layers of hearsay in the prosecution's case, questioning the admissibility and reliability of the evidence presented.

III. ProPublica’s Investigation on Trump and Bukele’s Alleged Deal

The conversation shifts to exclusive reporting by ProPublica, uncovering a potentially scandalous alliance between former President Trump and El Salvador’s President Nayib Bukele.

Key Points:

• Secret Agreement: Trump and Bukele allegedly negotiated a deal where El Salvador would incarcerate violent migrants and funnel US aid into supporting MS-13.
• Obstruction of Justice: Bukele’s administration is accused of blocking extraditions of MS-13 leaders to prevent them from testifying about the alleged deal.
• John Durham’s Role: Special Prosecutor John Durham, known for his investigation into the Mueller probe, is reported to have dismissed charges against MS-13 members, facilitating their deportation back to El Salvador.

Notable Quotes:

Allison Gill [31:29]: "Federal agents came to suspect that Bukele and members of his inner circle had diverted US aid funds to MS-13 as part of the alleged deal to provide it with money and power in exchange for votes and reduced homicide rates."

Andy McCabe [35:00]: "John Durham… wrote letters asking the judge overseeing the case… to dismiss charges against two gang leaders in US custody, allowing them to be deported to El Salvador."

Insights:

• Political Implications: The report suggests that the Trump administration prioritized political gains over justice, effectively shielding Bukele from investigations that could expose corruption and illicit deals.
• Impact on MS-13 Investigation: By dismissing charges against key gang members, Durham’s actions potentially crippled the US effort to dismantle MS-13’s leadership and gather actionable intelligence.

IV. Western District of Pennsylvania's Ruling on the Alien Enemies Act

The episode covers the recent ruling by Judge Stephanie Haynes, a Trump-appointed judge, who upheld the 21-day notice requirement for removal under the Alien Enemies Act (AEA).

Key Points:

• 21-Day Notice Requirement: Judge Haynes maintained that detainees must receive a 21-day notice before removal, rejecting the government's attempt to reduce this period to seven days.
• Hypothetical Scenario: The judge presented a detailed hypothetical to illustrate the logistical challenges in ensuring detainees have adequate time to respond, emphasizing the necessity of the 21-day notice for due process.

Notable Quote:

Allison Gill [46:12]: "The Court reaffirms its finding that Due Process Clause mandates the notice requirements that this Court articulated in the ASR case, 21 days, regardless of the contours of the distinguishable expedited removal proceedings."

Insights:

• Due Process Protection: The ruling underscores the judiciary's role in safeguarding detainees' rights against expedited and potentially arbitrary removal processes.
• Legal Precedent: This decision sets a precedent that challenges the administration's efforts to streamline deportations under the AEA, reinforcing the importance of legal safeguards in immigration proceedings.

V. Trump's Call for Special Prosecutor to Investigate 2020 Election

Towards the end of the episode, Gill and McCabe discuss President Trump’s renewed call for a special prosecutor to investigate the 2020 election results.

Key Points:

• Baseless Claims of Fraud: Trump continues to assert that the 2020 election was fraught with widespread fraud, a claim lacking substantial evidence.
• Potential DOJ Pressure: If Attorney General Pam Bondi heeds Trump’s call, she may face pressure to appoint a special prosecutor already confirmed by the Senate, complicating the process.

Notable Quote:

Allison Gill [51:59]: "President Donald Trump on Friday called for the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate the 2020 election won by Joe Biden, repeating his baseless claim that the contest was marred by widespread fraud."

Insights:

• Judicial Independence Concerns: This move raises alarms about the potential erosion of judicial independence and the manipulation of prosecutorial appointments for political ends.
• DOJ’s Dilemma: The Department of Justice faces a conflict between political pressure and maintaining law enforcement integrity, particularly with senior DoJ officials previously opposing such partisan investigations.

VI. California Court's Decision to Disbar John Eastman

Another significant development discussed is the California State Bar Court's decision to permanently disbar attorney John Eastman for his involvement in efforts to subvert the 2020 election.

Key Points:

• Unanimous Ruling: A three-judge panel found Eastman's actions unethical and unrepentant, unanimously deciding to revoke his law license.
• Conduct Criticized: Eastman is accused of pushing false narratives in court and media to undermine the electoral process and delegitimize election professionals.

Notable Quote:

Allison Gill [57:45]: "In the panel's unanimous ruling, he used his skills to push a false narrative in the courtroom, in the White House, and in the media. That false narrative resulted in the undermining of our country's electoral process, reduced faith in election professionals, and lessened respect for the courts of this land."

Insights:

• Legal Accountability: The decision highlights the legal system’s capacity to hold individuals accountable for actions that threaten democratic institutions and processes.
• Symbolic Victory: Disbarring Eastman serves as a symbolic rebuttal to efforts aimed at destabilizing the integrity of elections through legal and public misinformation.

VII. Listener Questions

The hosts engage with listener questions, providing clarifications and insights on various legal topics:

1. Legality of ICE Detentions:

   • Warrants Required? ICE agents generally do not need a warrant when operating in public or with consent from property owners.
   • Miranda Rights: Not typically required during civil detentions for immigration violations.
   • Rights to Legal Counsel: Detainees have the right to access legal counsel during their hearings.
   • Conditions of Confinement: Detainees must be treated humanely, with access to basic necessities.

2. Suing the Supreme Court:

   • Impracticality: The Supreme Court cannot be sued as it is not subject to jurisdiction by inferior courts; impeachment is the only recourse for wrongdoing.

3. Rumor about Ben Folds and the Show’s Music:

   • Clarification: The hosts debunk the rumor that Andy McCabe was the drummer for Ben Folds Five, clarifying the actual source of the show’s music and their relationship with Ben Folds.

Notable Interaction:

Andy McCabe [65:10]: "The idea of that makes me scream."

Allison Gill [65:21]: "But that's the story. Although now I. I really do want to ask him if Bob Mueller managed Ben."

VIII. Conclusion

UnJustified wraps up the episode by reiterating the critical issues discussed, emphasizing the ongoing challenges to civil liberties and the rule of law under the Trump administration. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with the content critically and support investigative journalism efforts that shed light on governmental overreach and corruption.

Notable Closing Remarks:

Allison Gill [68:10]: "Yep. It's been light on Wackadag pod in the last couple weeks. I feel he's going to be coming back with something next week."

The episode concludes with acknowledgments to contributors and a reminder of upcoming content, leaving listeners anticipating future discussions on related topics.

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Supporting Information: For more in-depth coverage and continual updates on these issues, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to UnJustified and follow affiliated platforms such as All Rise News and ProPublica.

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Key Takeaways:

• The Trump administration’s DoJ is under scrutiny for potentially undermining legal standards and due process.
• Allegations of a secret deal between Trump and Bukele raise concerns about corruption and the manipulation of immigration enforcement.
• Judicial rulings, such as Judge Haynes' decision on the AEA, reflect resistance against expedited removal processes.
• Efforts to disbar individuals like John Eastman signify legal accountability mechanisms in action.
• Ongoing political maneuvers, including calls for special prosecutors, threaten the integrity of the judicial system.

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Timestamped Quotes for Reference:

• Adam Klassfeld [02:53]: Discussing the government's questionable cooperation deals.
• Allison Gill [31:29]: Highlighting the diversion of US aid funds to MS-13.
• Andy McCabe [35:00]: Explaining John Durham's role in dismissing charges against gang leaders.
• Allison Gill [46:12]: Detailing Judge Haynes' ruling on the AEA notice requirements.
• Allison Gill [51:59]: Trump's call for a special prosecutor investigation.
• Allison Gill [57:45]: California court’s decision to disbar John Eastman.
• Andy McCabe [65:10]: Debunking the rumor about Ben Folds Five.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of UnJustified's "House of Cards" episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the critical issues addressed and the implications for civil liberties under the current administration.

Transcript

[Allison Gill]

MSW Media.

[Andy McCabe]

President Trump may be shielding El Salvadoran President Bukele from an investigation into allegations that Bukele used US aid to support MS.13 and traded away MS.13 leaders as a part of the agreement to house migrants at seco.

[Allison Gill]

Kilmar Abrego Garcia has had his detention hearing in the Middle District of Tennessee on the human smuggling charges brought by the Department of Justice. And the testimony generated more questions than answers about the veracity of the charges against him.

[Andy McCabe]

A Trump appointed judge in the Western District of Pennsylvania upholds the 21 day notice requirement for removal under the Alien Enemies Act Proclamation.

[Allison Gill]

And Donald Trump, the criminal defendant who got Eileen Cannon to toss out the charges against him on the grounds that the special counsel prosecuting him was illegal, has called for a special prosecutor to investigate the 2020 election. This is unjustified. Hey, every. Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode 22 of Unjustified. It is Sunday, June 22, 2025. I'm Allison Gill.

[Andy McCabe]

And I'm Andy McCabe. Let's just dive right in. Ag. So this past week, we got a magistrate judge in the Middle District of Tennessee held a detention hearing for Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And at the conclusion of the hearing on Friday in federal court in Nashville, Tennessee, U.S. magistrate Judge Barbara Holmes said she would rule at a later date on Abrego Garcia's bid to be released on bail pending trial. Now, it was a long hearing and it didn't conclude until after we had recorded last week's episode. So to cover it all in retrospect, we have joining us to talk about the hearing, someone who was actually there. Yes. From All Rise News, please welcome Adam Klassfeld. Adam, how are you, man?

[Adam Klassfeld]

Doing well. Andy, thank you so much. Pleasure meeting you.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, it's great to meet you as well. Thanks for being here. My pleasure.

[Allison Gill]

That's right. This is. This is Adam's first time on Unjustified. So we really appreciate you and we appreciate All Rise News. We appreciate you being there and we appreciate the people who subscribe to All Rise News who made it possible for you to be there in the courtroom. So first of all, I. You called me like on a break, like on a 10 minute break from the hearing because it was a marathon hearing. And you said, oh, this is bad. This is like triple hearsay, double hearsay. Like really like things aren't going well for the government. Gotta go. And then you ran back inside and I was like, no, wait, come back. Tell me, tell me more. I'm about to record Unjustified. So talk A little bit about what you had, what you meant by that in that phone call. I briefly mentioned it in last week's episode. But the, the totality of the hearing, it seemed like did not go well for the government.

[Adam Klassfeld]

It didn't. And when I, when we had that exchange, when I called you, that what had just happened, we were on a lunch recess and at the end of the morning session there was this cross examination of the FBI agent behind this investigation of Kilmar Abreco Garcia. And we found out a few facts during that cross examination. One, we found out that the investigation began on April 28 after the Supreme Court issued its ruling to facilitate Abrego's release home from El Salvador. So that was one of the things that we learned. We learned that within a sort of three week time span they went from the start of an investigation that remember initiated this was an investigation about this 2002 stop, a traffic stop, 2022, 22, excuse me, 2022 traffic stop in the middle Tennessee. So within three weeks, starting from April 28, they go from the initiation of an investigation under the cloud of the Supreme Court decision to a sealed indictment. Between that time, what happens? Well, they. From as we found out in the indictment, there are six co conspirators listed anonymously in the indictment. We learned that one of them is a man by the name of Jose Hernandez reyes. He's is CC1. He is someone who is alleged to be at the top of this human smuggling operation. CC3 is his close relative. Now both of them, we learned during this cross examination are getting assistance with their criminal records because both of them were sentence, excuse me, leniency on their incarceration because both of them were convicted in connection with this undocumented immigrant smuggling operation. And not only are they getting leniency, that Mr. Hernandez Reyes is sent from his three month sentence to a halfway house. CC3 and him both have immigration, certain immigration perks. Now the details of the deal are a little foggy. But what comes out at the end of this blistering cross examination by Mr. Abrego's defense attorneys that he asks the agent whether he made any promises of help with the incarceration or help with any of the immigration consequences of that. And he says no. He says absolutely not. I would not do anything like that without taking it up the chain of command. Asked if he knew who did, he didn't know. And that was the end of the morning session. Now, as I'm sure everyone here understands, it's not unusual for there to be Cooperating witnesses who have certain incentives to testify. That's, you know, that is in criminal conspiracies. What's unusual here is that the person, the people who are cooperating are alleged to be at the very top of this conspiracy and they are going after the man who is accused of being a relatively small fish and has no record. And in the context of a Trump administration that has gone all out on trying to expel undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes, here are two people who are getting immigration assistance in order to cooperate in the investigation of Mr. Abrego, who has never been convicted of any crime.

[Allison Gill]

So, Andy, let me ask you something. You've done a lot of this. You've worked a lot of Mafia cases and a lot of conspiracy cases. Do you often roll down like that.

[Andy McCabe]

To, to go after smaller fish down?

[Allison Gill]

Because it seems to me that you usually get the lower fish to flip on the bigger fish. And secondly, to maybe allegedly, and we're not sure, give asylum to 2 Ms. 13 gang members in order to get one out. This is something that you brought up, Andy, last week. And so it seems like that's what's happening.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to go one step further than you out of. They have taken the concept of cooperation and flipped it on its head. It's typically, as you describe it, ag it's you try to get people who are less culpable or lower down in the organization to provide information that you can use to charge and convict people who are more culpable. That's the way it's supposed to work. And you don't make promises to them in those, in those interactions. But what you can do to them or for them is lay out for them the, the structure there is under the law to receive lenience in your sentence if you are considered to be a good cooperator. So it works. It's a peculiar way that people cooperate in the federal system. But you can tell, you can tell a defendant, hey, if you cooperate and the prosecutors think that you've provided substantial assistance and that you've been truthful and done everything, they asked and told them all about all of the criminal activity you've ever engaged in, even things they don't know, even things they haven't charged you with, they will, at the end, termination of this whole proceeding, send a letter to the judge. It's called a 5K1 letter. And it entitles the judge to make a downward departure in your sentencing range. And that's how it works. So you can lay out the process for them, and then they get to make a decision with their attorney as to what they're going to do.

[Allison Gill]

But you can't promise what the judge is going to do and you can't promise what you're going to do.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, absolutely not. Agents can't offer anything. You don't have any, you know, bargaining chips to lay out on the table. This is just ridiculous. The idea that you would take two convicted human traffickers and also alleged members of this gang, which, by Trump's proclamation, makes them terrorists. Now, you take two convicted terrorists currently serving time and you dangle for them the prospect of staying here in the country. Presumably, that's what assistance with immigration would amount to in return for convicting one guy who was driving a car that allegedly had some of these people in it. I don't remember seeing in the indictment or the affidavit a shred of evidence that indicates that he knew this whole massive conspiracy existed. It may be the extent of his involvement was being offered certain amount of money to pick these people up at place A and drive them to place B. B. They're going to need more than that to convict him. If that's, in fact, all they have, we don't know what they have. But, boy, I would not want to be the agent responsible for that case.

[Allison Gill]

And then, Adam, there were a couple of issues of hearsay and double hearsay in some instances about those other things that Pam Bondi threw into her press conference that haven't been charged, like underage people in the van, for example, or drug trafficking or things like that. Other things that he wasn't charged with. When you want to talk about that, what the judge said about that.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Absolutely. Well, it was unclear whether certain evidence would even be permissible during this hearing because, as folks may remember, when Pam Bondi rolled out this case, one of the things that she accused Abrego of was sex offenses, that. The sexual misconduct. Now, he hasn't been charged with anything that. And. And if you look into the detention memo, they claim that he solicited a nude from a minor. Now, when this testimony was supposed to come in, it was the FBI agent attesting to what he heard from. We. We found out. Actually, excuse me, I need to step back and correct myself that he did not hear this directly from a cooperator. This was an interview a cooperator had with another agent. So all of this was coming in secondhand. There was another moment where there was. I'm sorry, it's about a week old now, so I'm drawing Back.

[Andy McCabe]

The.

[Adam Klassfeld]

When they drill down on this particular allegation. There was an allegation that one of the members of this conspiracy thought that he was inappropriate with younger women whom he was transporting and that this was bad for business. So this was a rumor from one of the cooperators, what they had heard, what they understood to be the case. The judge ultimately, before the morning session, initially refused to let that testimony in because of multiple layers of hearsay, as she put it. Now after, in the afternoon session, she said, given the lower standard for a hearing like this, it's, you know, she will let it in, but give.

[Andy McCabe]

Not.

[Adam Klassfeld]

The type of consideration that something that was not multiple levels of hearsay, as she put it. But she said she used that phrase multiple times in regard to this evidence. This isn't a direct accusation from a person on the witness stand. This is something that other members of the conspiracy allegedly understood, and it bothered them because it allegedly threatened their business. So that is what Pam Bondi put in a press conference and said about Abrego. There it was revealed during this hearing to be something understood by someone who was a rumor.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, a rumor that's never by cooperative. That's never getting into his case in chief. Not a chance. This is. This hearing is to determine pretrial release. And the standard is, as you've referenced, very low. The issues at stake are only two. One is danger to the community, and the other is risk of flight. And so I can see how she would feel like under the circumstances and the danger to the community side, maybe she needs to let it in. Just to be tied up. Yeah, just to, like, let it all out there. But that's never come. I mean, unless they come up with a vic, somebody who was victimized by him, who wants to take the stand and make that allegation publicly. I don't think. I don't think that information ever gets into a trial.

[Adam Klassfeld]

I will say also, we'll find out. She has his reserved decision on the matter. But it is far from clear to me, having sat through that hearing, that she will rule in favor of the government on the matter of his detention. Now, if she did rule in favor of the government, the way that the process works in Tennessee, it's a little more complicated. I don't. I've never seen this happening in the Southern District of New York. It goes to a. This was a hearing that precedes a detention hearing. And it seems that she is skeptical that the government has met the bar to even get this second hearing that would go toward his detention. So if she rules in his favor, consider that level of her, her skepticism of the evidence. You know, she, she expressed, she said, she noted that on. Under the bail reform act, she must presume that Kamar Brago Garcia is innocent of the crimes charged. And you just have to look at his in. In that light, the danger to the community and the risk of flight. And she seemed very skeptical by the end of a full day on Friday, but we'll see what she does.

[Allison Gill]

But what about the government's argument that if he is released on bail, we'll just rearrest him anyway, that heads I win, tails you lose, is what you called it when we talked on Substack Live.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Absolutely, it was. There was something also Twilight Zone about it, because what they had said is that the trial itself could be scuttled if the judge orders his release, because in that state, he would be put into immigration, immigration, custody, and then he's deportable to any country but El Salvador. Now, the defense attorneys for Mr. Abrego said, well, that's not. He would have some defenses against that if they sent him to Mexico. With reason to believe that the Mexican government would send him to El Salvador. Well, that would be chain deportation, and that would be a defense against deportation. But the government's position here is you can't release him, your honor, because if you release him, we'll never get to try him because another arm of the government will try to deport him.

[Allison Gill]

We will make it impossible for ourselves to try him. Okay.

[Adam Klassfeld]

In essence, yeah, it was.

[Andy McCabe]

Those two arms of the government belong to the same body.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, exactly.

[Andy McCabe]

They could say to one arm, could say to the other arm, okay, don't do that because we want to do our trial.

[Allison Gill]

Oh, wow. All right. Before we let you go, there's a couple other things I wanted to ask about. First of all, the US Attorney himself argued this. And you. I were both kind of astonished by that. And I want to ask you about that. And if the judge mentioned it at all, like, what. What are you doing? What. Like from the Californians, what are you doing here? And also, apparently, A.O. garcia has a brand new crackerjack legal defense team for this criminal part of the trial. And. But though his. His public defenders in this hearing were also very great. So address those, those two things, if you would. The U.S. attorney and his legal team.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Yeah. So the U.S. attorney are. It's something that I have not witnessed before, where a US Attorney himself would argue the case on his by himself rather than through one of his assistants, although I have seen in the second Trump administration, senior attorneys are arguing all the time. You look at the case of, of Eric Adams and who's by himself at the government's table but Amel Bovey. And we're seeing this pattern play across throughout Trump's second term that these people who are the, the senior members closest to the political branches are arguing by themselves. Now, the judge didn't really remark upon it, though she did express her familiarity with him throughout the hearing. She didn't say anything along the lines of where are your assistants? Or something like that. But I, you know, I did a.

[Andy McCabe]

Map to get here.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's funny because this was the first time that I've specifically covered the middle district of Tennessee. And I thought, well, you know, maybe they do things a little differently here. So I asked the local reporters, have you ever seen the U.S. attorney argue the case? And they hadn't either. And I'll say in 20 years of covering the courts, I have never seen a U.S. attorney at, you know, the U.S. attorney argue rather than an assistant argue in a high profile criminal case. It's just never.

[Allison Gill]

Have you, Andy?

[Andy McCabe]

Unbelievably rare, but every once in a while, particularly in New York and the, the, the, the example that comes to mind is Giuliani, I was going to.

[Allison Gill]

Say the guy who likes to be in front of cameras probably.

[Andy McCabe]

So every, if there's a, like a super high profile, like multiple homicide mafia case that a U.S. attorney will step in and take some cuts as, you know, the first chair, you know, examine some, cross examine some witnesses, things like that. There is a feeling in us, at least in New York, when I was there working as an agent, like they wanted at least the division chief of the, of either office, Eastern or Southern, if the division chief hadn't gone in and like been a part of a big trial, they kind of like had a little bit less respect for them. But the U.S. attorney super, super, super rare. And that's for a trial for a detention hearing. Are you kidding me? That's like the low man on the totem pole. You go in and handle like magistrate court and detention hearings and initial appearances. So my guess is the politics, it's probably the U.S. attorney calculates that it's good for him politically to be seen by the administration with his hands dirty. But also it could be because he doesn't want to have to deal with half of his staff saying, I'm not doing it right. There could be that kind of, I don't know, I mean, I'm Just speculating here, but there could be a little rebellion involved there.

[Adam Klassfeld]

You know, I, I have to say I saw it in the light of the recent history with Mayor Adams where you had this mass exodus from sdny. And who's there to take the case? Well, it's none other than Emil Bovey taking the acela up from Washington D.C. him, because there was no one with him from the Southern District at the government's table. And here we had another high profile resignation. Now, we don't have confirmation that Mr. Schrader, the former criminal division chief in the Middle District of Tennessee in, when he resigned on the day of Kilmar Rago Garcia's sealed indictment, that there was a causal connection. But there's a, there is reporting saying that he resigned because he thought that the case was political. And if, if he declined to take the case for that reason, one, and it does make one wonder why there isn't an assistant in that district at the government's table with him. There was someone, I believe, even on the legal briefs, the only signatures are his and people working on a task force. But it's not assistants who are with the Middle District of Tennessee, as I understand it.

[Allison Gill]

And speaking of high powered attorneys, during this hearing, Abrego, Mr. Abrego was represented by public defenders. This is a detention hearing. But he has gotten rid of Wilt. I know he's just hired. He hasn't changed because the, the other part of this case, the discovery thing, is still being represented by the ACLU and Mr. Gillard and Associates. But this he has hired. Oh my gosh, he's. Let's see. First is the deputy criminal chief of the U.S. attorney's office in the Middle District of Tennessee named Rascoe Dean. And then also Hecker himself from the New York City firm Hecker and Fink. Like this, this is, these are high powered defense attorneys.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Absolutely. And I think David Patton is there now too, if I have that correct, that these are some of the top criminal defense attorneys. And I thought he was very well represented by the federal defenders in that hearing. There was a very memorable line by Mr. Shabazz during his, during oral arguments toward the end where the U.S. attorney had made a comment about the preponderance, the, about the preponderance of the evidence, how they only need to get, in his words, past the 50 yard line. And Mr. Shabazz said something to the effect of they're at the 10 yard line, it's fourth down and they have no quarterback. And I have to tell you, having sat through those oral arguments, that line was earned. I mean, he spoke. He had some very withering dissection of these cooperating witnesses testimony. He went through the fact that Mr. Abrego doesn't have one misdemeanor conviction, not one felony conviction, not 34 felony convictions was how he put it, zero. And he. He went through the evidence systematically. And I, I have to say the judge didn't contradict him. Now, I don't make predictions. I. My sense of it was, it was a rough day for the government and we'll wait to see her ruling.

[Allison Gill]

Well, that's going to be my new. Like, ouch. When this happens, when, when a public defender says something radical and be like, Shabazz, that's going to be my new. You've been Shabbat Shabazzed. Well, we. It's been a week. We still don't have a. Can you check the docket really quick to see if we have any ruling? She said she would rule soon.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Yeah, she said sooner than later. And when judges say that they're being open ended in a very calculated way. I will put it this way. I have not seen a docket alert, and even at the time of our recording, I am not seeing any docket alerts that would indicate that she ruled.

[Allison Gill]

All right, well, we'll keep an eye on it. Maybe we'll have it. Maybe you'll hear me say breaking news, breaking news in a moment, as we sometimes have to do here on Unjustified before we go to air. But we appreciate your time and I really, really encourage everybody to go to Substack search for All Rise News and subscribe and support what Adam Klassfeld is doing. We had a couple other big things going on today in court. You were following one of them, I was following the other. And like, we're just one people, which is one person operations. We can't be in multiple places at once. So we really, really appreciate all the hard work you're doing.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, thanks so much. It's great to have you on. And getting the color and the details from exactly what happened really makes these legal briefs and stuff kind of come alive. So appreciate you helping us out with that.

[Adam Klassfeld]

Thank you so much. Andy and Allison, it's been a pleasure.

[Allison Gill]

No problem, everybody. We've got some impressive reporting from ProPublica about the possible agreement between President Bukele and the Trump administration. We're going to cover that right after this. Quick break, everybody. Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody, it's AG Whether it's post workout soreness or the kind of nagging pain that builds up just by living Life and being 51. For me personally, I found relief with CBD from CB Distillery. Millions are tuning into their CBD because it works. Over 90% of customers report better sleep and their targeted formulations address more than just rest. CB Distillery offers solutions for stress, mood and focus, pain after exercise and even has CBD options for pets. Yes, you get CBD cookies for your babies. My favorite lately has been the Relief Stick. It's incredibly easy to use and delivers fast, effective comfort to my tight shoulders, my knees, my lower back. I apply it right after a long day or a tough workout or because I'm my age, just pulling whatever muscle by sleeping. But within minutes I feel a huge difference and I want to thank CB Distillery for sponsoring this episode. You can get 25% off your entire [e-mail] and use promo Code Unjust so CB Distillery is top tier when it comes to quality. Their ingredients are clean, their products are thoughtfully formulated. They've got options, like I said, for stress, mood, sleep and pet care. No, no matter what you're dealing with, there's most likely a CB Distillery product that can help. And it's not just me. Millions of people are turning to CB Distillery and over 90% say their sleep is improved. If pain's getting in your way, try the Relief stick. You might be surprised how quickly it becomes a staple in your routine. And for a limited time you can save 25% on your entire purchase. Just visit CBDistillery.com and use promo code UNJUST. That's CBDistillery.com promo code UNJUST one last time CBDistillery.com specific product availability depends on individual state regulations hey everybody, welcome back. So that other part of the Abrego case that I was talking about is the potential violations of Judge Sinis's discovery order. You'll recall she ordered a two week truncated discovery period to get to the bottom of whether the government defied her court order when she told them that they had to outline the ways to her in which it was facilitating the release of Abrego, something the Supreme Court itself ordered the government to be prepared to do. But for six weeks the government obfuscated their obligations, stonewalled the discovery process, and for that reason the plaintiffs Abrego's lawyers say that the case is not over and should not be dismissed despite the government's motion to dismiss the original complaint and dissolve her discovery order. Judge Seniors Discovery Order now as BOASBERG pointed out in the other case in his criminal contempt memorandum in the alien enemies act proclamation situation, you can't ignore a court order even if it's eventually deemed unlawful by a higher court or mooted because of mitigating circumstances. In other words, you can't defy a court order because you don't think it's right. You have to follow it until the point it's mooted or overturned. And those outcomes do not preclude you from being scrutinized for disobeying the order. Now, one of the things that the government was slippery about during discovery, Judge Senas discovery process was the release of its agreement with president Bukele of El Salvador. And it had been posited that there was likely something politically embarrassing about it that caused the government to open an investigation on April 28 while they were under a sanctions review and cook up some criminal charges against Abrego on hearsay in an effort to avoid the discovery process. Right. Kind of a fair assumption to make.

[Andy McCabe]

Yep.

[Allison Gill]

And Andy, you had brought up the fact that they were having. Pam Bondi was having these massive press conferences about arresting violent Ms. 13 gang members and then all of the charges being dismissed weeks later.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Allison Gill]

Crazy. This week, ProPublica, who does excellent investigative journalism, has some reporting on what that embarrassing political aspect might be.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, that's right. So T. Christian Miller and Sebastian rotella write for ProPublica. In mid April, president Donald Trump sat down in the oval office with president naive Bukele of El Salvador to celebrate a new partnership. They had recently negotiated an extraordinary deal in which El Salvador agreed to incarcerate in a maximum security PR Prison hundreds of Venezuelan immigrants that the Trump administration had labeled as violent criminals, though few had been convicted of such crimes. The U. S. Also sent back accused members of the Notorious Salvadoran gang MS.13, which both the U. S and El Salvador have designated as a terrorist organization.

[Allison Gill]

Now Bukele's presidency has been defined by his successful crackdown against Ms. 13. He has jailed tens of thousands of alleged gang members, transforming one of the hemisphere's most dangerous nations into one of its safest. Although human rights groups have criticized his tactics, Bukele remains very popular in El Salvador. That's just the way of it. Now, during their meeting at the White House, Trump praised Bukele as one hell of a president. He shook his hand saying, we appreciate working with you because you want to stop crime and so do we.

[Andy McCabe]

A long running US investigation of Ms. 13 has uncovered evidence at odds with Bukele's reputation As a crime fighter. The inquiry, which began as an effort to dismantle the gang's leadership, Expanded to focus on whether the bukele government cut a secret deal with MS.13 in the early years of his presidency. New reporting on that investigation by propublica shows that senior officials in bukele's government Repeatedly impeded the work of a u. S. Task Force as it pursued evidence of possible wrongdoing by the salvadoran president and his inner circle.

[Allison Gill]

This goes on to say that bukele's allies secretly blocked extraditions of gang leaders whom u. S. Agents viewed as potential witnesses to the negotiations and persecuted salvadoran law enforcement officials who helped the task force. That's according to exclusive interviews with current and former U.S. and Salvadoran officials, Newly obtained internal documents and court records from both countries. So, wow. In a previously unreported development, federal agents came to us. Federal agents came to suspect that bukele and members of his inner circle had diverted US aid funds to MS.13 as part of the alleged deal to provide it with money and power in exchange for votes and reduced homicide rates. In 2021, agents drew up a request to review u. S. Bank accounts held by salvadoran political figures to look for evidence of money laundering related to the suspected diversion of U. S. Funds. The list of names assembled by the agents included bukele senior officials and their relatives, According to documents viewed by propublica. So the u. S. Was investigating bukele giving laundering money and giving it to MS.13 in exchange for votes and to.

[Andy McCabe]

Chill the violence and reducing the violence because that makes his political fortunes better, right? Quote. Information obtained through investigation has revealed that the individuals contained within this submission are heavily engaged with MS.13 and are laundering funds from illicit business where MS.13 are involved, the agents wrote. The people on the list are also believed to have been funding MS.13 to support political campaigns, and MS.13 have received political funds. So that's a quote. Two quotes from the actual request that the agents submitted for access to these bank records. Now, the outcome of the request is not known, but its existence shows that the US Investigation had widened to examine suspected corruption at high levels of the bukele government. The investigation was led by joint task force vulcan, A multi agency law enforcement team created at Trump's request in 2019. If you remember, AG back then, it was like trump was like, all over MS.13 constantly talking about MS.13 arrests and things like that. So that's when this task force got stood up. Agents found evidence that the bukele government tried to cover up the pact by preventing the extraditions of gang leaders who faced U.S. charges that included ordering the murders of U.S. citizens and plotting to assassinate an FBI agent.

[Allison Gill]

Wow. So he would block their extradition to the United States to face charges.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. So when this task force started actually kind of identifying information that would lead them ultimately to a charge and an extradition request, the allegation here is that the Bukele government would block those extraditions because they don't want those people ending up in US Jails and then telling federal agents all the things that they've.

[Allison Gill]

Done that they got money from Bukele.

[Andy McCabe]

Exactly.

[Allison Gill]

Now, in addition, U.S. officials helped at least eight of their counterparts in Salvadoran law enforcement flee El Salvador and resettle in the United States or elsewhere because they feared retaliation by their own government. That's according to current and former U.S. officials. It has been clear from the beginning what Trump wants from El Salvador. An ally who would accept and even imprison deportees. Less clear has been what Bukele might want from the United States. In striking the deal with the Salvadoran president, Trump has effectively undercut the Vulcan investigation that he stood up in 2019 and shielded bukele from further scrutiny. That's according to current and former U.S. officials.

[Andy McCabe]

Quote, There was good information on corruption between the gang and the Bukele administration. Christopher Musso, a former senior official at Homeland Security Investigations, or hsi, which is of course part of dhs, who worked on Vulcan, said this about the Salvadoran investigation. Quote, it was a great case. In May of 2021, Bukele's legislative majority in Congress ousted the attorney general and justices of the Supreme Court. Supreme Court, which oversees extradition requests. Within seven months, newly installed justices reversed or halted six requests for senior gang leaders wanted in the U. S. According to interviews and documents, quote, Bukele's people were coming to the supreme Court and saying, under no circumstances are we extraditing the MS.13 leaders, said the U. S. Official familiar with the investigation. Quote, delay, interfere, undermine, do what you have to do.

[Allison Gill]

Now get this, Andy. Senior Bukele officials helped an MS.13 leader with a pending extradition order escape from prison. That's according to court records, US officials and Salvadoran news reports. At least three other top Ms. 13 gang leaders were released from Salvadoran custody after the US filed extradition requests for them. That's according to Justice Department documents.

[Andy McCabe]

Wow.

[Allison Gill]

Published accounts in the United States and El Salvador have reported allegations that Bukele also pushed for the return of MS.13 leaders to prevent them from testifying in US courts about the pact between Bukele and MS.13. Despite his government's refusal to extradite gang bosses to the United States, the Trump administration in March deported one Ms. 13 leader accused of terrorism. The Justice Department is now seeking to dismiss charges against a second MS.13 leader, which would allow him to to be sent back to El Salvador, according to recent court filings.

[Andy McCabe]

And if that wasn't enough, here's where it really gets weird. John Durham ring any bells?

[Allison Gill]

But what?

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. Yep. The same Durham that Bill Barr tapped as special prosecutor to investigate the investigators of the Mueller probe. He was truly included. Yeah. So after more than five years leading the Vulcan task force, Durham wrote letters asking the judge overseeing the case or cases to dismiss charges against two gang leaders in US Custody, allowing them to be deported to El Salvador. The letters were dated March 11 and April 1, weeks after the Trump administration began negotiating the mass deportation deal with Bukele's government. Then in April, Durham asked for the dismissal of terrorism charges against a lower ranking MS.13 prisoner, Vladimir Antonio Aravalo Chavez, alias Vampiro, according to recently unsealed court records.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, so. After millions spent on an operation involving investigators and prosecutors from the United States, El Salvador and other countries, Vulcan had amassed a trove of evidence aimed at incarcerating the Ms. 13 leaders who had overseen the killings, rapes and beatings of America. Prosecutors told defense attorneys they had more than 92, 903 pages of discovery, including 600 pages of transcribed phone intercepts, 21 boxes of documents from prosecutors in El Salvador, and 11 gigabytes of audio files. Durham said prosecutors were dropping their pursuit of the cases, quote, due to geopolitical and national security concerns.

[Andy McCabe]

During the negotiations over the use of El Salvador's prison, Trump officials agreed to pay some $6 million to house the deported men and acceded to an additional demand. Bukele had one specific request, according to Melena Mayorga, his ambassador to the United States. Quote, I want you to send me the gang leaders who are in the United States. She quoted Bukele as telling US Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

[Allison Gill]

So there we go. Thanks to ProPublica, we have confirmation of what you were thinking, Andy.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Allison Gill]

That he wanted these MS.13 gang leaders so he could silence them.

[Andy McCabe]

Makes no sense at all. Right. We talked about this at the very beginning of Unjustified, and it came up first at the case of Cesar Umberto Lopez Larios. He was a legit national leader of Ms. 13. He had been arrested on June 18 or thereabouts, 2024. And you look him up, if you look, run his name in that date or whatever, you'll come across the DHS press release that day talking about how he is like the worst serious worst of the worst guy and a leader of what they only refer to as a transnational criminal organization, because that's actually what it is. And he was incarcerated in New York, and the word on the street was that he was in the MDC and that he had begun cooperating. So we also learned in March that the charges against him had been dismissed and that he had been slated for deportation. And that really, really rang some alarm bells for me. And it was only about a week or so after that we had another guy here, Henry Josue Villatoro Santos. He was the guy who was arrested here in northern Virginia. And they had the big press conference at the FBI northern Virginia sub office. Bondi was there, Patel was there. Everybody's there. They talk about what great it was, and they picked up this massive Mastermind leader of Ms. 13, which was really debatable when you look at the facts, but they never said his name. And then the guy was finally presented a day later, and within about a week, he was arrested on March 27. By May 1, charges dismissed. So that's what they're dealing with, the actual criminals who they are deporting. A lot of these guys are, you know, who knows, wanted by the El Salvadorans. They'll never see a day in a U. S. Court. They'll never actually get to fight the charges against them. They'll never, you know, they'll never get to profess their innocence or prove it in any way. And more importantly, if there is bad and significant as the, as the administration says they are, they'll never get convicted and forced to serve those sentences here, which is our way of protecting Americans against the horrible things that these allegedly horrible people might do in the future, like who knows what happens to them when they're in El Salvador next. You know, next time the Bukele government needs a deal, these guys are out and probably back here in America.

[Allison Gill]

So Trump stands up, Vulcan puts Durham in charge of it, starts investigating, finds that Bukele was laundering money, US taxpayer dollars from USAID to pay Ms. 13 gang members in a deal with them. And then refusing to extradite Ms. 13 gang members to the United States because he doesn't want them talking about the deal between them. And now Durham is dismissing charges against Ms. 13 gang members who have raped, raped, murdered, robbed, committed crimes against Americans. Yeah, sending them to El Salvador because Bukele wants it. So. Makes me.

[Andy McCabe]

Right.

[Allison Gill]

Makes me wonder why Trump set up Project Vulcan in the first place. To get. To get Bukele under his thumb and have him agree to certain things. I don't know. It's all speculation.

[Andy McCabe]

Let's just say I think he probably had no idea what he was getting into, like, at the time. Yeah, that was the flavor of the minute back in 2019. He's trying to prove that, you know, Ms. 13 was the worst thing that we had to deal with here in the country. And they're, they're a bad, you know, a transnational criminal organization, you know, responsible for a lot of horrendous crimes. Yeah.

[Allison Gill]

The people who are actual members are bad dudes.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah. And so your goal with investigating them is to work your way up the food chain, start taking out some of the leadership. And when you get that leadership in custody and they're facing like, massive prison sentences here in the United States, that's when they start to cooperate and provide like, real actionable information that in this case, if that information, if the allegations are, are true, and guys like Lopez, Larios and others were actually providing information about the Bukele government, that information is super relevant to our diplomatic, political, kind of geopolitical understanding of another country and, and also possibly could have led to additional charges. So. But no, the flavor of the minute now is deportation and they needed someone with a big hole in the ground to take all these Venezuelans.

[Allison Gill]

I want you to do me a favor, though.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right.

[Allison Gill]

Kind of what the whole thing boils down to.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, that's what it seems like.

[Allison Gill]

All right, well, fantastic reporting from ProPublica. There's a lot more detail to that story. You can check it [e-mail] I highly recommend supporting their investigative journalism because it is top notch. All right. We have more information and stories to get to, but we have to take another quick break, so stick around. We'll be right back.

[Andy McCabe]

Welcome back. Okay, next we head to the Western District of Pennsylvania to the court of Trump appointed Judge Stephanie Haynes, the only judge in the country that has ruled President Trump's use of the Alien Enemies act is lawful. So this past week, she issued a ruling upholding the 21 day notice. And the government had only been giving 12 hours notice to some of these deportees and sometimes even less than that. The government then issued a memo saying it would grant a seven day notice.

[Allison Gill]

Like, it's like they're haggling at the swap meet.

[Andy McCabe]

Exactly.

[Allison Gill]

21 days. How about 7?

[Andy McCabe]

How much for the used Hyundai Pawn Stars?

[Allison Gill]

Best I can do is seven.

[Andy McCabe]

Exactly. So Judge Haynes said that the seven day notice is not enough and she gave a hypothetical in her rul ruling to illustrate the point.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, she said the court offers the following hypothetical to illustrate its point. Assume that detainee John Doe, who's housed at Moshannon Valley Processing Center MVPC in the Western District of Pennsylvania, received notice on June 1, 2026 at noon that he is subject to removal under the Alien Enemies Act. And the proclamation, his only recourse is to file with the judiciary in habeas. Thus, unlike an individual in expedited removal proceedings, he apparently may not tell an immigration officer of his intention to apply for asylum or his fear of prosecution and thereby obtain a hearing. That's 8 US code section 1225 B1A1. So assume that John Doe then begins drafting through whatever means are available to him a habeas petition to file in the Federal court of the Western District of Pennsylvania and or places to call to his attorney if he's got to make a call to his attorney, if he has one.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, and I mean, I don't know. I feel like the assumption that John Doe knows how to draft a habeas petition, like, I'm a lawyer, I don't know how to do that, but okay, I'm gonna. So keep keeping with her hypothetical, which is really remarkably long and detailed. She goes on to say halfway through drafting his petition, or while waiting for a call back from his attorney, or while still looking for an attorney attorney on June 4, 2026, at 5pm he's placed on a plane which will arrive in the Northern District of Texas at 7:45pm that same evening. He has no opportunity to take his partially drafted petition with him or call his attorney or find an attorney before he's transferred. After arriving at Bluebonnet Detention center in the Northern District of Texas at 11:30pm on June 4, 2026, he takes most of the day on June 5 to acclimate himself to his surroundings and look for means within the facility to redraft his habeas petition and places another call to his attorney. I'm guessing Bluebonnet doesn't have a legal library, but whatever, let's keep rolling. By the time he finds means for drafting a petition or hears back from his attorney, it is June 6, 2026 at 12:00pm and he stands to be removed from the country in just two days. Might there not be significant risk that this individual would not reach the Judiciary before his 7 days have run their course, meaning that he would be removed without any hearing whatsoever. Might not his movements from one facility to another, his quest to draft a petition, and or his search for word from an attorney take even longer than the time frames that the Court has just described?

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, she's like, even my hypothetical is pretty fast.

[Andy McCabe]

It almost took seven days to get the hypothetical out.

[Allison Gill]

She goes on to say the Court cannot help but answer those questions in the affirmative. Therefore, having considered the Supreme Court's long standing holding that no person shall be removed from the United States without opportunity at some time to be heard, and after again weighing the realities of ice removal proceedings, the risk of errant removals, and the burden upon the government, the Court reaffirms its finding that Due Process Clause mandates the notice requirements that this Court articulated in the ASR case, 21 days, regardless of the contours of the distinguishable expedited removal proceedings. Accordingly, the Court finds that the wjcc, that's the plaintiff here, has shown a likelihood of success on the merits insofar as he seeks the following notice before his removal from the country under the Alien Enemies act proclamation. He wants one 21 days notice and an opportunity to be heard. Number two, notice that clearly articulates the fact that he is subject to removal under the aea. Number three, notice in English and Spanish, the language of the one sought to be expelled, and if needed, Spanish to English interpreters shall be provided for any necessary hearings. And four, notice of all the foregoing to his council. She goes on to say that since the plaintiff is getting a 21 day notice, there is no irreparable harm argument as to the lawfulness of the aea. So she's again denying an injunction of the proclamation itself. She thinks it's lawful. Trump's use of the aea.

[Andy McCabe]

Right.

[Allison Gill]

But she is siding with the Supreme Court's interpretation. Well, she's interpreting what the Supreme Court said when it said meaningful notice. She's saying, look at my hypothetical meaningful notice. Here is 21 days. Other judges have said 30, and I think four other judges have said that the AEA itself is unlawful in the first place. That still hasn't made it up to the Supreme Court. We're still waiting on that.

[Andy McCabe]

So.

[Allison Gill]

So we just wanted to give you that quick update from the Western District of Pennsylvania. The one judge who has proclaimed that the AEA is lawful, the way that Trump is using it, but stood up for her 21 day thing when the government said what about seven.

[Andy McCabe]

Okay, eight yeah.

[Allison Gill]

All right. We have two more quick stories and then listener questions. We're going to take one more quick break. Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Andy McCabe]

Foreign.

[Allison Gill]

Hey, everybody, welcome back. All right, two more quick headlines for you. First is from the Associated Press. I can't, I just can't with this. Andy. President Donald Trump on Friday called for the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate the 2020 election won by Joe Biden, repeating his baseless claim that the contest was marred by widespread fraud.

[Andy McCabe]

Fraud?

[Allison Gill]

Earlier this month, Trump directed his administration to investigate Biden's actions as president, alleging AIDS masked his predecessor's cognitive decline. Biden has dismissed the investigation as a mere distraction.

[Andy McCabe]

It was unclear what Trump had in mind when he called for a special prosecutor, that's for sure. But in the event Attorney General Pam Bondi heeds his call, she may face pressure to appoint someone who's already been confirmed by the Senate.

[Allison Gill]

Senate. Why? Why would she face pressure to, to appoint someone already confirmed by the Senate, Andy?

[Andy McCabe]

Well, that's a, that's a little awkward for DOJ because two of its senior leaders, Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, and Emil Beauvais, who I don't, don't even remember, he's like chief henchman or something. Now they championed the strategy in The United States vs Trump case in Florida in which they argued successfully that the special prosecutor was unconstitutional unless he or she was a. Was approved by the Senate, so. Or confirmed by the Senate.

[Allison Gill]

That and because they were appointed, he, Because Jack Smith was appointed not to an office that already existed.

[Andy McCabe]

Yes.

[Allison Gill]

So remember that weird argument that if they had created the office and then two seconds later appointed him to, it would have been fine. That was what Judge Cannon put in her 93 page. I can't believe I remember the number of pages in her.

[Andy McCabe]

That's pretty sad.

[Allison Gill]

I need a life. You're right. Just me. I just over educated cat lady over here.

[Andy McCabe]

But you know, I mean to sometimes get out a little bit. I'm just saying or whatever.

[Allison Gill]

But that was her argument.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Allison Gill]

And so anyway. Yeah. So he'll have to to follow what Eileen Cannon said and I mean, who knows better what their arguments were than the people who made them than are now at the top of the Department of Justice.

[Andy McCabe]

There you go. There you go. You know, there's, I can't imagine any of those people being hypocritical and taking a position now that is opposite of the one they had earlier. Do you think that could happen?

[Allison Gill]

Well, they'll say, hey, we got him confirmed by The Senate. Is Durham around? I mean, he's not as busy. Because he's not as busy with Vulcan.

[Andy McCabe]

He just shite canned all of his Vulcan cases. So. So he might be available.

[Allison Gill]

He. I think he was confirmed by Congress. I can't remember. Not for. As U.S. attorney, not as special prosecutor.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right.

[Allison Gill]

Anyway, that's a bizarre thing, but we were expecting this. He. We knew he was going to investigate this because just a few days ago, actually, FBI Director Kash Patel. And I hate saying that sentence, he tweeted.

[Andy McCabe]

I'm not crazy about hearing it, but go ahead.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, no, sorry. Don't make me throw Dan Bongino in there, but Kash Patel tweeted and Ed Martin, the Wackadagpa.

[Andy McCabe]

Nice.

[Allison Gill]

Retweeted. The FBI has located documents which detail alarming allegations related to the 2020 US election. Like stuff he could have brought up the whole time he was being prosecuted for this. But didn't we just now found. Did eat. Did eat Ships at sea. We've just found these documents, including allegations of interference by the ccp. China. Right? That's China.

[Andy McCabe]

China. China. China. It's China Gate.

[Allison Gill]

China. I have immediately declassified. He says he just get this. He says, I have immediately declassified the material and turn the documents over to the Chairman, Chairman Grassley, for further review. Andy, how often does the FBI hand over evidence in an active investigation to Congress?

[Andy McCabe]

That would be never. I mean, in the old days. Now, who knows? But I gotta tell you that handing that over to Grassley means one thing about this information, and that is that it is evidence of nothing. It is. There is no purpose for it.

[Allison Gill]

If you have strong evidence in a real investigation, you don't hand it over to anybody. Because if you leak it, you're not going to have a case.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right.

[Allison Gill]

If it gets out into the public, you could lose your case. You could totally undermine your prosecution. You keep that tight, you keep it buckled down.

[Andy McCabe]

Would also be a gross violation of DOJ and FBI policy. And on and on and on and on and on. But, you know, you're giving it to Grassy, you might as well just, like, get in the car, skywrite it, get onto the highway, roll down the windows and just heave it out the window.

[Allison Gill]

Throw it out like Mean Girls Burn book.

[Andy McCabe]

Exactly. Have the same effect.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah. Anyway, very, very interesting information. One last story before we get to listener questions. This one comes from Politico. This is a little bit of good news. A California court has upheld a recommendation that attorney John Eastman should lose his Law license because of his central role in President Donald Trump's efforts to subvert the 2020 election. A three judge review panel of the California State Bar Court found that Eastman's conduct was so egregious and his remorse so lacking that the only remedy was to permanently prohibit him from practicing law. Quote, eastman continues to fully deny his many unethical actions. He denies he misled the courts. He denies that he made multiple false and misleading statements. He denies that he conspired to subvert the law in order to benefit his client's desire to remain in office after his client lost a fair and lawfully conducted election. That's Judge Kearse McGill. In the panel's unanimous ruling, quote, he used his skills to push a false narrative in the courtroom, in the White House, and in the media. That false narrative resulted in the undermining of our country's electoral process, reduced faith in election professionals, and lessened respect for the courts of this land. The judges concluded Eastman plans to appeal to the California Supreme Court. Good luck, buddy.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, good luck. I mean, I'm no expert on California Supreme Court bar appeals, but this, this seems like a decision that was based on facts, right?

[Allison Gill]

Like, not scathing unanimous panel review.

[Andy McCabe]

This is not some esoteric interpretation of law that's been applied by the bar bar counsel there. It's the facts, which they've laid out for you, that this guy is an unrepentant liar. So the. So, you know, the only thing is.

[Allison Gill]

That he's permanently barred from practicing law.

[Andy McCabe]

Appellate courts are very unlikely to get in and reinterpret the facts that were presented to the lower court. It's really. It's not. That's not what they're there for. They're there for to fix errors in legal interpretation.

[Allison Gill]

All right, time for some listener questions. If you have a question, we have a link in the show notes. You can send us a question by clicking on that and filling out the form, and we'll see if we can answer them. Andy, what do we have today?

[Andy McCabe]

All right, so I got a couple lined up because I feel like we've been going light on the questions the last couple weeks because the shows are so long and probably today again, too, but here we go. So I thought lightning round would be appropriate. I got a couple here. The first one actually has a few really tight questions in it. It. And it comes to us from Amy, and Amy says, hi, Allison and Andy. My question is about the legality of the ICE detentions taking place en masse. I understand these detentions are not the same as typical police arrests for someone suspected of committing a crime. So from there, Amy, I'm going to cut right to your actual questions. One, do ICE agent agents need a warrant? The answer is only if they're trying to get into someplace that, that, that they are not legally present in.

[Allison Gill]

Like if they're looking at residents, for example. But if it's a business, they can be in public spaces of that business.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah.

[Allison Gill]

Or not private spaces of that.

[Andy McCabe]

Private ones. If the business lets them. If the business has, you know, business has the ability to consent, they can come in. Okay. The next thing is, do they need to read Miranda rights to detainees? Not really. Because what happens in most of these detentions, they just walk up to people and say, let me see your authorization card, your green card, what have you. And people say, I don't have a green card. My visa's expired. At that point, you're deportable.

[Allison Gill]

That's a civil violation too, right? Not a criminal.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. It's not a criminal case. So you don't have. It's not like they're going to be going into criminal court and proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the things that you said. It's simply a civil violation of being here without status. And so they can go with that. The next question, do detain detainees have a right to access a lawyer and a speedy trial? So lawyer, yes. As we've been talking about in a lot of these immigration cases, you do have a right to be heard before you're deported. And that brings with it a right to have legal counsel. In that hearing we just talked about the 7 days versus the 21 days. So there's different time periods that you have to get to do that depending on where you are in the process. Speedy trial, not really. That's a criminal law thing. That doesn't really apply to these immigration proceedings. Once detained, what rights do detainees have? And this she mean, she means like conditions of confinement. We're hearing stories about people being held in really awful conditions. In some of these temporary locations, they're putting detainees. They do have the right to be treated humanely and to be given, you know, food and shelter and a place to sleep that's not the floor. You know, things like that. That the problem is if there are violations of those conditions, it's really. The violation applies to the agency and they have to correct it. It's not the sort of constitutional violation that could result in you, like getting asylum, getting your green card or asylum or something. Like that. So it doesn't really help them in that respect. So that's what. That's my lightning round on the ICE detentions there. Any comments from uag?

[Allison Gill]

No, but I, you know, I would. Well, then I guess yes, because I'm about to say something. Something. No, but here's a bunch of stuff. I was asked by a follower or a listener about churches and the difference between businesses. And I was looking into it, and I say to go. What I really recommend is go to the Immigration Law center website and the aclu. They have really detailed information about what happens if ICE comes to your door, if they approach you on the street, if they come to your car, if they come to your business, if they come to your church.

[Andy McCabe]

Yep.

[Allison Gill]

They have all of the information about your rights in there, there. And. And people you can contact in case you are detained by ICE and how to do that. So that's where I recommend aclu, Immigration Law Center. Really, really important information and resources on specifically, like what kind of building they're trying to get in. What about Dodger Stadium?

[Andy McCabe]

I hear Dodgers said, no, you cannot come in.

[Allison Gill]

Which is great because that was a Dodger. There's Padres game. So you're talking about 50,000 Southern Californians. And so they wouldn't even let them in the parking lot. But then. But then DHS was like, that's not ice. And to my. Which I respond, well, then prove it. Wear ICE uniforms if you're. If you're ice. Like, how am I supposed to know?

[Andy McCabe]

Some other heavily armed, fully masked deployment of people in law enforcement SUVs.

[Allison Gill]

Well, there are tons of people impersonating ICE officers now.

[Andy McCabe]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. But in this case, I mean, that was so obviously them. You can't deny things that are provably false. I mean, like, criminy.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah. Like the Dodgers would come out and say that if it weren't right.

[Andy McCabe]

They would. Oh, so the Dodgers just made this up out of whole cloth. It's so, so ridiculous. All right, next lightning question. This comes from Taco Don. Taco don says hi, A.G. and A.C. not sure. I guess I'm A.C. in this one. Taco Don. But anyway, thanks for being a bright light in these darkening times. It means a. My question is simple. Can the American people sue the Supreme Court for wrongdoing or harm caused by their actions and judgments? No, Taco Don. I wish, because that would be cool. But you can't, because it's the Supreme Court. So they are not subject to the jurisdiction or rulings of any Other inferior court. You can't sue them. There's no court you could file a lawsuit against them in.

[Allison Gill]

No, the only redress against the Supreme Court is impeachment.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. That's right. All right, so my final question, Saving the best for last. It's a long one, but it's going to have a short answer. So here you go. This comes to us from Tim Dog. And Tim Dog also says we could use any cool sounding name other than Tim Dog if there was one that we preferred, but there's not. I like Soul Invictus. There you go. All right, Tim Dog says, what's the story with Ben Folds doing the music for the show? Show? The rumor around my apartment, which I heard from myself, and I'm not a credible source, is that Andy was the drummer for the Ben Folds Five in the early 2000s during the period that Bob Mueller managed the band. Is that true or have I misled myself? Serious, though. I'm curious. More seriously, thanks for what you guys do and how you do it. I hate podcasters, but you two are all right in my book, especially for a couple of feds. Kid thing. Or am I?

[Allison Gill]

Okay, I'm there. First of all, I'm going to text my friend Ben and ask him if Bob Mueller managed Ben Folds Five.

[Andy McCabe]

The idea of that makes me scream.

[Allison Gill]

Because I never heard that.

[Andy McCabe]

I mean, I've spent a lot of time with Bob Mueller. I can tell you. That's about one of the last things I could ever imagine him doing.

[Allison Gill]

And I've spent a lot of time with Ben Folds, and I'm pretty sure.

[Andy McCabe]

He would have mentioned that dude was our manager. He couldn't get us any gigs because he's mean.

[Allison Gill]

Oh, I. Sorry. I shouldn't swear on this particular show. Anyway, anyway. Tim Dog. No, no. Andy, were you. I don't think.

[Andy McCabe]

No, I can't drum. No, man, I wish I could. I wish I had a drum kit. I'd beat on it, but not well.

[Allison Gill]

So the story is that the Ben Folds does the music for the show, because Ben Folds is a friend of mine and I've interviewed him a few times on the Daily Beans. You can look up those interviews by going to wherever you get your podcast and searching Ben Folds Daily Beans. And he did us a solid and I asked him if he had any music he wasn't using, and he sent us some. And so that's why he does the music for this particular podcast. And, you know, we've done some cool political stuff together. And so that's It. I mean, that's the long and short of it. It's just like I'm, you know, I'm friends with the they Might Be Giants and they do the music for the Daily Beans podcast. In a previous life, I was a musician, and so nice.

[Andy McCabe]

I was not.

[Allison Gill]

But you have really cool guitars. You have way cooler guitars than I have, sir.

[Andy McCabe]

I'm a wannabe musician. It's guitar, not drums. But, yeah, I can play a little more now than I used to, which is good.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, but that's the story. Although now I. I really do want to ask him if Bob Mueller managed Ben.

[Andy McCabe]

I think he should, because I. I know he didn't, but I'd just be interested to hear how he answers the question. I'm thinking we get something more than just a plain old no, though that.

[Allison Gill]

Would be f I. And what's interesting is I wouldn't put it past that. To be real, I would put it past Bob Mueller. But I don't know. That's just you being the drummer for Ben Folds Five and. And Bob Mueller being the manager in the early aughts. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Andy McCabe]

I mean, maybe that's how Mueller and I got to know each other. And he la. Later pushed me into all those big jobs because he saw my skills behind.

[Allison Gill]

The kit and he was scouting for the FBI.

[Andy McCabe]

That's right. In music venues, this dude, he's got mad Phils. And also would be great as the ad of counterterrorism. Oh, all right. We gotta stop this thing. Yeah, it's off the rails.

[Allison Gill]

Yeah, it is. It's gone off the rails. But we really appreciate your questions and. And please send them in. Anything at all. Obviously, we'll answer pretty much any question, so y. Send it to us at the link in the show notes. And Tim, we appreciate your question, Taco Don. Appreciate you, Amy, we appreciate you and we will see you all next week. Do you have any final thoughts before we get out here?

[Andy McCabe]

I think that one covered it. I'm good, but looking forward to seeing what the mess delivers for us next week.

[Allison Gill]

It'll be something. Ed Martin, the Wackadagpa doesn't sleep.

[Andy McCabe]

No. It's been light on Wackadag pod in the last couple weeks. I feel he's going to be coming.

[Allison Gill]

Back with a. I think you will too. All right, everybody, we'll see you next week. I've been Allison Gill.

[Andy McCabe]

And I'm Andy McCabe.

[Allison Gill]

Unjustified is written and executive produced by Alison Gill, with additional research and analysis by Andrew McCabe, sound design and editing is by Molly Hockey with art and web design by Joelle Reader at Moxie Design Studios. The theme music for Unjustified is written and performed by Ben Folds and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned independent podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information please visit mswmedia. Com.