UnJustified – Episode 30: "The Hero We Need" (feat. Cathy Harris)

Air Date: August 17, 2025
Host: Allison Gill (Creator of Mueller, She Wrote)
Co-Host: Andrew (Andy) McCabe (Former Deputy Director of the FBI)
Guest: Cathy Harris (Former Merit Systems Protection Board Member)
Podcast by: MSW Media

Overview

This episode of UnJustified centers on the escalating erosion of civil service protections and the rule of law, with a particular focus on federal takeovers, unlawful removals of public officials, and the consequences of politicizing traditionally independent government institutions during Trump’s administration. The episode features an in-depth interview with Cathy Harris, recently ousted and then embroiled in litigation over her position on the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB), and critical updates on the legal wrangling over law enforcement control in Washington, D.C., grand jury resistance to political prosecutions, and the chilling purge inside the FBI.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Case of Cathy Harris and the Erosion of Civil Service Protections

• Background:

  • Cathy Harris was fired by Trump from her Senate-confirmed tenure at the MSPB, in apparent violation of statutory "for cause" removal protections. Legal back-and-forth ensued, including temporary court-ordered reinstatement, but ultimately the Supreme Court blocked the move while litigation is pending.
  • Harris' case is consolidated with another involving Gwen Wilcox from the NLRB, raising fundamental constitutional questions.

• Humphrey’s Executor Doctrine at Stake ([04:22]–[13:41]):

  • The doctrine, dating to a 1935 Supreme Court case, restricts the President’s ability to fire members of quasi-judicial, independent federal agencies without cause.
  • Harris explains the significance:

    "No member had ever been terminated of any independent board I think since Humphrey's executor as far as I know." ([05:03], Cathy Harris)

  • The Trump administration is openly seeking to overturn Humphrey's Executor, potentially enabling a president to purge independent board members at will.
  • Harris cautions that abolishing these protections would politicize everything from the Federal Reserve to labor boards:

    "You can pick your lawyer, the President can pick his lawyer, but he shouldn't be able to pick his judges." ([12:41], Cathy Harris)

• Importance of Separation of Powers:

  • Andy McCabe underscores that undermining Congress’s design of these independent bodies is a direct transfer of power from the legislature—and by extension, the people—to the executive:

    "If you give all of this to the President, you, by definition, are taking away power from Congress and therefore taking away the government's accountability to the citizens." ([14:41], Andy McCabe)

• Morale and the Realities of Civil Service:

  • Harris reflects on her career and the climate of demonization against public servants:

    "For the most part, our civil servants are professional, smart, dedicated, and honorable. ... We are so lucky that these people are in government doing what they do." ([18:33], Cathy Harris) "Courage is contagious. ... I'm going to continue to fight to make sure that the law is followed." ([18:33], Cathy Harris)

2. Federal Takeover of the D.C. Police Department

• Events Unfolding ([21:51]–[36:57]):

  • Trump’s Attorney General, Pam Bondi, issued a directive replacing the D.C. police chief with the DEA head as "emergency commissioner", sparking immediate legal challenges.
  • D.C. officials, including AG Brian Schwab and Mayor Muriel Bowser, contest the legality, invoking the Home Rule Act and asserting local control.
  • Judge Reyes presides over a rapidly called hearing and signals skepticism of the administration's "overbroad" interpretation of emergency authority, indicating the likely need for a temporary restraining order if federal actions aren't dialed back.
  • The hosts decry the administration's "performative," press-driven approach, at odds with the established spirit of cooperation between federal and local D.C. law enforcement.

• Quotes:

  • "You can't just hand over the police department because... Bondi was saying, you know, everything has to go through this guy." ([27:33], Allison Gill)
  • "They are only concerned with the big press conference, the splashy media moment. ... D.C. didn’t even know this was happening until they heard the press conference." ([33:38], Andy McCabe)
  • "Donald Trump is producing a TV show every day. It’s the TV show of the presidency, the big, beautiful presidency." ([37:00], Andy McCabe)

3. Cracks in Political Prosecution: Grand Juries Push Back

• ICE Protestor Prosecution Falters ([37:36]–[47:22]):
  • Federal prosecutors, led by D.C. U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro, have repeatedly failed to secure grand jury indictments against demonstrators accused of interfering with ICE agents—even in cases with video evidence.
  • A judge releases a protestor on her own recognizance, noting the grand jury’s consistent rejection reflects the weakness of the case:

    "Suggesting the evidence is wanting, given the standard for indictment is probable cause." ([38:42], Judge G. Michael Harvey via Andy McCabe)

  • Ex-DOJ employee "sandwich guy" (Sean Dunn) also released after being charged with assault for throwing a foot-long sandwich at a federal agent:

    "They should try to actually indict the ham sandwich." ([45:28], Allison Gill - noted as a dad joke, laughter ensues)

  • Hosts link this to Supreme Court arguments about prosecutorial discretion and the robust legal checks on "rogue" prosecutions, undermining claims that absolute presidential immunity is needed.

4. Warning from Former National Security Officials / FBI Purge

• Open Letter on FBI Independence ([51:42]–[54:58]):
  • A coalition of former intelligence and defense officials warns about the “ongoing purge” inside the FBI, singling out recent removals of seasoned agents and the elevation of unqualified, ultra-loyalist appointees.

  • "The aim, it seems, is to transform the FBI from a respected, constitutionally grounded investigative service into a personal enforcement arm of a political figure. ... We have seen these dynamics abroad; these regimes do not end well." ([53:10], quoted letter)

  • Senator Dick Durbin demands a DOJ Inspector General investigation into arbitrary removals and disparate impacts on women and people of color in the FBI.

5. Listener Q&A: The Machinery Behind Authoritarian Tactics

([55:30]–[61:05])

• Question: Do figures like Pam Bondi, Hegseth, Patel, Gabbard, and others invent their tactics, or are they directed by Trump? Is Project 2025 involved?
• Andy McCabe's take:

  "Trump sets such a clear example of what he wants. ... They decide what to do based upon what they think he will like.... It is a 100% commitment to satisfying the whims of Donald Trump."

• Allison Gill’s view:

  "Trump really wants to be a strong man, a dictator. ... All of these people pulling all the strings who want different things out of a dictator and can only get them from a dictator. ... They're getting all of these ideas, workshopping everything out of the authoritarian playbook."

6. Mental Health Note: Disenfranchised Grief Among Public Servants

([61:09]–[63:48])

• Listener Jay (therapist) explains “disenfranchised grief”—the persistent, unrecognized loss suffered by wrongfully terminated public servants.
• Both hosts reflect on personal and professional meaning lost, illustrated by Harris’ and their own experiences.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cathy Harris, reflecting on her ordeal:

  “I feel a little bit like a ping pong ball after what you described.” ([02:01])

• On the existential stakes of Harris’s firing:

  “If Humphrey’s Executor goes away... the President can fire members of boards like mine, the NLRB, the Fed and other important boards that have bipartisan statutory protections from arbitrary removal.” ([05:03], Cathy Harris)

• Andy McCabe on Presidential power grabs:

  “If you give all of this to the President, you, by definition, are taking away power from Congress and therefore taking away the government's accountability to the citizens.” ([14:41])

• On civil service dedication:

  "We are so lucky that these people are in government doing what they do. ... Someone told me courage is contagious." ([18:33], Cathy Harris)

• On performative federal takeovers:

  “Donald Trump is producing a TV show every day. It’s the TV show of the presidency, the big, beautiful presidency.” ([37:00], Andy McCabe)

• On 'sandwich guy' prosecution:

  "He was charged with assault with a deli weapon. ... They should try to actually indict the ham sandwich." ([43:57], [45:28], Allison Gill, with laughter)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Cathy Harris Litigation Recap: [01:04]–[13:41]
• Humphrey’s Executor & Threats to Board Independence: [04:22]–[14:41]
• Civil Service Morale and Purpose: [18:33]
• DC Police Takeover Debrief: [21:51]–[36:57]
• Grand Jury Rejects Politicized Prosecutions: [37:36]–[47:22]
• FBI Purge & Steady State Letter: [51:42]–[54:58]
• Listener Question on Project 2025/Authoritarian Playbook: [55:30]–[61:05]
• Mental Health - Disenfranchised Grief: [61:09]–[63:48]

Summary

This episode provides a comprehensive, urgent, and at times darkly humorous survey of the legal and cultural peril facing the U.S. civil service and democratic accountability. From personal stories of wrongful removal to the granular details of live litigation and the inside workings of attempted federal takeovers, UnJustified remains a crucial chronicle—the “hero we need”—of the systematic undermining of American governmental norms and the resilience of those upholding them.