Podcast Summary: UnJustified – Episode 27: "The Murder End of the Stick"

Release Date: July 27, 2025

Hosts: Alison Gill and Andy McCabe
Description: Alison Gill and former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andy McCabe, delve into the ongoing erosion of civil liberties and the rule of law under President Trump's Department of Justice (DoJ). In this episode, they explore controversial appointments, wrongful terminations, and questionable prisoner swaps that signal deeper systemic issues within the administration.

1. Introduction

Alison Gill opens the episode by highlighting recent contentious events, including Tulsi Gabbard's declassification of documents questioning the 2016 Russia investigation and lawsuits filed by former DoJ employees alleging wrongful termination under the Trump administration. She sets the stage for a deep dive into how these developments reflect the administration's broader attempts to undermine established legal processes.

2. Tulsi Gabbard's Accusations Against Obama

Andy McCabe introduces Tulsi Gabbard's recent actions, noting her claims against former President Barack Obama, which Alison describes as unfounded and confusing.

• Andy McCabe (01:30): "Tulsi Gabbard is accusing Barack Obama of a treasonous coup."

Discussion Highlights:

• Conflation of Issues: Andy explains that Gabbard is conflating different aspects of the Russia investigation, confusing cyber activities targeting voting infrastructure with overall election meddling.

  • Andy McCabe (05:00): "Gabbard has conflated our assessment about their cyber activity targeting the voting infrastructure with our overall assessment that the Russians meddled in the election."

• Mueller and Related Investigations: The hosts detail how multiple investigations, including those led by Robert Mueller and Durham, have thoroughly debunked claims of improper interference, yet Gabbard continues to propagate misinformation.

• Effectiveness of Investigations: Alison and Andy emphasize that despite numerous investigations and charges against low-level individuals, higher-level conclusions consistently support the initial findings of Russian interference without altering vote counts.

3. DOJ's Circumvention of the Vacancies Act: Appointments of U.S. Attorneys

The conversation shifts to the Department of Justice's controversial appointments of U.S. Attorneys, bypassing standard procedures.

Alison Gill: Discusses how Trump’s administration attempted to install Alina Habba as the interim U.S. Attorney in New Jersey despite judicial rejections.

• Alina Habba Appointment:
  • Alison Gill (36:41): "Alina Haba's interim appointment expired... but she announced she's going to be the new acting U.S. attorney in New Jersey."
  • Andy McCabe: Highlights the legal loopholes being exploited to keep controversial figures in positions of power without proper confirmation.

Andy McCabe (37:30): "Circumventing the Vacancies Reform Act... using unconfirmable individuals as lead local federal prosecutors."

Key Points:

• Legal Acrobatics: The DoJ’s manipulation of the Federal Vacancies Reform Act (FVRA) to appoint acting U.S. Attorneys without Senate confirmation undermines legal norms and judicial oversight.

• Comparative Analysis: Steve Vladek’s insights compare the New York and New Jersey cases, illustrating the administration’s broader strategy to maintain control over federal prosecutions by installing loyalists.

• Implications for Governance: These actions reflect a pattern of disregarding legal boundaries to consolidate power, posing significant threats to the independence of the judiciary and the integrity of the legal system.

4. Prisoner Swap and the Release of a Convicted Murderer

Alison and Andy examine a controversial prisoner swap orchestrated by the Trump administration involving Venezuelan detainees and a convicted murderer, Hanid Ortiz.

Key Developments:

• Prisoner Swap Details:

  • Alison Gill (29:38): "Under a prisoner swap... Venezuela will permit the return of 252 men to the United States if ordered by a court."
  • Andy McCabe (30:27): "The swap includes Hanid Ortiz, a convicted murderer released back to the U.S., raising significant legal and ethical concerns."

• Hanid Ortiz's Background:

  • Andy McCabe (33:32): "Ortiz killed three people in Spain before fleeing to Venezuela, where he was sentenced to 30 years."
  • Alison Gill (34:43): Expresses skepticism about Ortiz’s integration back into American society, highlighting the dangers posed by releasing a triple murderer.

• Legal and Ethical Concerns:

  • Andy McCabe (35:03): Questions the administration’s motives, suggesting that the swap is more about political maneuvering than justice.
  • Alison Gill (35:34): Criticizes the administration for prioritizing political gains over public safety and due process.

Notable Quotes:

• Alison Gill (34:38): "Wow, how long before you think he commits another crime and gets arrested?"
• Andy McCabe (34:58): "I don't see, like, real goodness in his future."

Discussion Highlights:

• The administration's decision to release Auschwitz Ortiz, despite his violent history, is portrayed as a blatant disregard for the victims' families and national security.

• Impact on Public Trust: Such actions erode trust in the government's ability to safeguard its citizens and uphold the rule of law.

5. Appointment of Alina Haba in New Jersey: Legal Acrobatic

Continuing the discussion on DOJ appointments, Alison and Andy delve deeper into the specific case of Alina Haba in New Jersey.

Alison Gill: Questions the legitimacy of Haba’s appointment and the DoJ’s misrepresentation of the withdrawal of her nomination.

• Alina Haba’s Nomination Issues:
  • Alison Gill (37:30): "They wrongly claim that the White House withdrew her nomination, but under the law, her nomination disqualifies her from serving."

Andy McCabe (39:29): "The difference between Albany and New Jersey is meaningful, with New Jersey facing more blatant attempts to install unconfirmable individuals."

Key Points:

• Legal Constraints: The FVRA explicitly prohibits serving in acting capacities if a permanent nomination is pending, rendering the DoJ’s actions unconstitutional.

• Historical Context: Alison references past incidents where Trump circumvented the FVRA, drawing parallels to current tactics.

• Long-term Implications: The continued disregard for legal procedures threatens the stability and credibility of federal legal institutions.

Notable Quotes:

• Alison Gill (39:44): "All of this is happening because they couldn't even get confirmed by this Congress."
• Andy McCabe (43:04): "Confusing for people to try to keep up with because of this huge difference between interim U.S. attorney and acting U.S. attorney."

6. Dismantling of the Merit Systems Protection Board and DOJ Staffing Crisis

The podcast tackles the compounded issues within the DOJ, focusing on the dismantling of the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB) and its ramifications on federal employees.

Alison Gill: Shares a personal connection, highlighting how disruptions in the MSPB process are affecting federal employees' ability to contest wrongful terminations.

• Broken MSPB Process:
  • Alison Gill (49:07): "The MSPB lacks a quorum to vote on any petitions for review, crippling the ability of employees to challenge their dismissals."

Andy McCabe (50:13): Emphasizes how the administration's actions are intentionally undermining civil service protections.

Key Points:

• Psychological Warfare: The administration's strategy to fire federal employees without proper cause or explanation is described as psychological terrorism aimed at destabilizing the workforce.

• Legal Challenges: The lawsuit filed by recently terminated employees argues that the MSPB's dysfunction violates the Civil Service Protection Act and constitutional due process.

• Long-term Consequences: Such tactics sow fear and uncertainty among federal employees, leading to reduced morale and effectiveness across government agencies.

Notable Quotes:

• Alison Gill (52:44): "Amounts to psychological terrorism. You are removing people who were good or excellent at their jobs with no explanation."
• Andy McCabe (55:34): "What you'll see over time is a gradual degradation of their performance and of their ability to do their job."

7. Listener Q&A: DOJ Staffing and Judiciary Impact

In the Q&A segment, a listener named Owen raises concerns about the DOJ's dwindling staffing levels and the potential impact on judicial proceedings.

Owen's Question: Wonders whether understaffed DOJ officials will lead to judges granting continuances or holding the government accountable for failing to appear in hearings.

Alison Gill and Andy McCabe's Response:

• Alison Gill: Highlights the gradual degradation in DOJ operations, noting that the administration's approach will lead to fewer prosecutions and lowered standards in legal processes.

• Andy McCabe (58:00): Predicts a decline in the quality and quantity of DOJ prosecutions, attributing it to the administration's intentional undermining of legal standards.

Key Points:

• Judicial Efficiency: While judges might initially grant continuances, the long-term effect will likely be a significant reduction in DOJ's ability to uphold legal responsibilities, resulting in more cases slipping through the cracks.

• Resource Allocation: Limited staffing forces the DOJ to prioritize cases, potentially ignoring less politically expedient prosecutions and focusing only on high-profile or politically motivated cases.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy McCabe (59:23): "They're never going to stop defending their policies like they are now. They're going to stop doing prosecutions, they're going to do less of them."
• Alison Gill (60:01): "Less foreign counterterrorism and more mass deportation."

8. Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Alison Gill and Andy McCabe conclude the episode by reiterating the severe ramifications of the Trump administration's DoJ policies. They emphasize the long-term damage to federal institutions, the rule of law, and civil liberties.

Key Takeaways:

• Systemic Undermining: The administration's tactics extend beyond individual appointments and termination practices, indicating a broader strategy to erode the legal and ethical foundations of federal governance.

• Future Implications: The erosion of procedural safeguards and the degradation of DOJ’s capacity will have lasting impacts on justice, accountability, and public trust in government institutions.

• Call to Action: The hosts urge listeners to stay informed and vigilant, highlighting the importance of accountability and transparency in maintaining the rule of law.

Notable Closing Remarks:

• Alison Gill (61:25): "Things are happening fast and furious and we'll cover it here on Unjustified over at the Justice Department."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Andy McCabe (05:00): "Gabbard has conflated our assessment about their cyber activity targeting the voting infrastructure with our overall assessment that the Russians meddled in the election."

• Alison Gill (34:38): "Wow, how long before you think he commits another crime and gets arrested?"

• Andy McCabe (35:03): "Venezuela's like, yeah, yeah, you can take him. You can have him. He's both of ours, but you can have him now."

• Alison Gill (37:30): "They wrongly claim that the White House withdrew her nomination, but under the law, her nomination disqualifies her from serving."

• Alison Gill (49:07): "The MSPB lacks a quorum to vote on any petitions for review, crippling the ability of employees to challenge their dismissals."

• Andy McCabe (55:34): "They're never going to stop defending their policies like they are now. They're going to stop doing prosecutions, they're going to do less of them."

Conclusion

"The Murder End of the Stick" paints a grim picture of a Department of Justice operating under duress and manipulation, prioritizing political agendas over justice and legal integrity. Alison Gill and Andy McCabe provide a comprehensive analysis of how these actions signal a deeper malaise within federal institutions, threatening the foundational principles of democracy and the rule of law.

Listeners are encouraged to stay engaged and informed, as the hosts continue to uncover and discuss the systemic challenges facing the Justice Department and broader governmental structures under the current administration.