UnJustified Podcast – Episode 31: "Vindictive and Selective" (August 24, 2025)
Episode Overview
In this episode, hosts Allison Gill (creator of Mueller, She Wrote) and Andrew McCabe (former Deputy Director of the FBI) dissect a tumultuous week in U.S. law enforcement. They focus on the latest actions and controversies within the Department of Justice and the FBI under the Trump administration, including the erosion of civil liberties, selective prosecutions, high-profile legal maneuvers, and sweeping changes to FBI personnel and standards. The episode highlights themes of weaponization, political retaliation, and institutional instability.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Ghislaine Maxwell and the Epstein Files
Timestamps: 00:31–06:51
- Ghislaine Maxwell Interview Transcripts: DOJ releases heavily redacted, fragmented transcripts and audio from Maxwell’s interview, raising questions about missing evidence and suspiciously poor sound quality.
- Allison Gill: “She just doesn’t seem to remember anybody getting any massages anywhere or anyone being at any island.” (03:31)
- Andrew McCabe: “Basically, there’s no client list at all, ever. Anytime. Never saw one. No. Wouldn’t even know what that is. And Donald Trump never did anything wrong.” (03:50)
- Questionable Interview Procedures: The interview was not at an FBI field office, and equipment was subpar. FBI agent Spencer Horn was present, as well as a US marshal and an ADAG.
- Gill jokes about 1976 cassette recorders, McCabe details FBI standards for recording interviews (05:24–06:51)
2. FBI Search of John Bolton’s Home
Timestamps: 06:51–15:20
- Background and Reporting: FBI searched former NSA John Bolton’s home in Maryland for classified documents (related to his book/leak investigation).
- Gill jokingly calls Bolton “half man, half mustache.” (06:51)
- Quoted from FBI Dir. Kash Patel on X: “No one is above the law.” (07:22)
- Public statements from AG Pam Bondi and FBI’s Dan Bongino echo a hardline stance.
- Legal Complexities: The DOJ had previously dropped a civil and criminal case against Bolton during the Biden administration. Gill and McCabe draw parallels to the Mueller report and discuss legal hurdles to re-prosecuting cases after a declination.
- Gill: “Once the Department of Justice declines to prosecute you… it’s real hard to bring that back up again.” (11:00)
- McCabe: “…all the workings of the first grand jury that did not indict him become relevant and accessible to the defense.” (13:16)
3. Reshaping the FBI: Purges and New Leadership
Timestamps: 21:16–34:53
- Purge of Senior Officials: Firing of respected leaders (Driscoll, Jensen, Giardina, Spencer Evans) after they resisted pressure to fire subordinates involved in Jan 6 or Trump-related cases.
- The “Suspendables,” a fringe group of right-leaning former agents, are influencing staffing decisions via pressure on Bannon and Patel. (32:55)
- Gill: “It seems like this guy Seraphin wanted to fire some people and Driscoll and Jensen said no, and they got fired for that.” (34:01)
- Lowering Standards for New FBI Agents: Trump administration lowers recruitment and training standards, removing the college requirement and shortening Quantico training from 18 to 8 weeks.
- McCabe: “You should see, like the Quantico instructors have knife fights over who gets an extra five minutes in front of those classes… It’s just horrible news and can only end one way.” (37:33)
- Gill jokes about being recruited by ICE with minimal vetting.
4. Appointment of a “Co-Deputy Director”
Timestamps: 22:46–31:08
- Dan Bongino and Andrew Bailey: Trump administration appoints both the controversial former podcaster Bongino AND Missouri AG Andrew Bailey as FBI co-deputy directors, breaking FBI tradition.
- Marcy Wheeler (Empty Wheel) speculates this is to enable more partisan control, especially over sensitive investigations (e.g. journalists). (25:21)
- McCabe: “There’s only one deputy in the organization and that is the guy that holds the fate of the SACs … in his or her hand. They didn’t want any obstacle between them and their ability to pick up the phone…” (27:36)
- Gill jokes about forum shopping between bosses: “How do you even decide who you’re going to ask?” (30:09)
5. DOJ Trouble: Alina Haba’s Unlawful Appointment and Epstein Records
Timestamps: 39:59–46:47
- Alina Haba Ruled Unlawful U.S. Attorney: Federal judge rules Haba’s appointment as U.S. Attorney of NJ is invalid, though he won’t dismiss existing cases; Haba can’t participate further.
- Gill: “I don’t have to do any work, which might actually be the best result for the citizens of New Jersey.” (42:23)
- DOJ Misses Epstein Files Deadline: DOJ late on turning over unredacted Epstein files to Congress; judges deny DOJ requests for grand jury files, arguing DOJ could already release other documents.
- Gill paraphrasing judge: “Get out… You got a hundred thousand documents, three hundred thousand pages in your possession.” (44:36)
6. Weaponization and Selective Prosecution: The Abrego Case
Timestamps: 48:48–54:38
- Kilmar Abrego’s Vindictive/Selective Prosecution Motion: Abrego, an immigrant wrongly deported and brutally detained, now faces criminal charges after suing the government—which then retaliates.
- Gill quotes the motion: “If there has ever been a case for dismissal on those grounds, this is that case.” (51:02)
- McCabe: “It’s a lethal combination for the government here because they have all those statements you just referenced… and the government has no evidence…” (52:28)
- Gill outlines the legal argument and court-imposed due process safeguards for Abrego while awaiting trial.
7. Revoking Security Clearances
Timestamps: 54:40–56:24
- Political Purge of NatSec Officials: Director Tulsi Gabbard revokes security clearance for 37 current/former Biden and Obama natsec officials, with no evidence, purely as punishment for “politicization.”
- McCabe: “You don’t really have a right to a security clearance… they’re hoping that it’ll cost some people job opportunities and income… the process is the punishment.” (55:36)
8. Prosecution Issues: Federal Weapons Policies in D.C.
Timestamps: 45:14–48:19
- DOJ Policy Shift: Federal prosecutors now instructed not to seek felony charges for carrying rifles/shotguns in D.C., complicating public safety and police investigations.
- Gill and McCabe express disbelief and concern about motivations—suggesting it’s a political gesture favoring certain groups. (47:54)
9. Listener Questions and Comments
Timestamps: 56:36–61:39
- Question from Robin: Why is it so hard to prosecute governmental crimes in the U.S.? McCabe discusses legal gaps stemming from Supreme Court decisions like McDonnell, weakened anti-corruption laws, and the difficulties in passing corrective legislation.
- Comment from Jordan: Voicing support for honest FBI agents, emphasizing the need for resilience and integrity in challenging times.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Allison Gill: "She just doesn’t seem to remember anybody getting any massages anywhere or anyone being at any island." (03:31)
- Andrew McCabe: "Basically, there’s no client list at all, ever. Anytime. Never saw one. No. Wouldn’t even know what that is. And Donald Trump never did anything wrong." (03:50)
- Allison Gill: "Once the Department of Justice declines to prosecute you… it’s real hard to bring that back up again." (11:00)
- Andrew McCabe: "You should see, like the Quantico instructors have knife fights over who gets an extra five minutes in front of those classes to teach them one more thing that they think is absolutely essential." (37:33)
- Allison Gill: "Maybe she’s okay with it. She’s like, this is great. I get to keep the title and the pay, but I don’t actually have to… I can’t get involved in any of the actual, actual casework." (42:23)
- Andrew McCabe (on co-deputy directors): "We didn’t ever actually do it successfully. The SACS wouldn’t stand for it. There’s only one deputy..." (27:36)
- Allison Gill: “If there has ever been a case for dismissal on those grounds, this is that case.” (51:02)
- Andrew McCabe: “...the process is the punishment.” (55:36)
Segment Timestamps
| Topic | Start | End | |-----------------------------------------|-----------------|-----------------| | Ghislaine Maxwell/Epstein Files | 00:31 | 06:51 | | FBI Search of John Bolton | 06:51 | 15:20 | | DOJ Legal Discussion–Bolton | 11:00 | 16:54 | | Purge of FBI Officials & "Suspendables" | 32:10 | 34:53 | | Lowering FBI Recruiting Standards | 36:19 | 39:33 | | Co-Deputy Director Controversy | 22:46 | 31:08 | | DOJ: Alina Haba & Epstein Files | 39:59 | 46:47 | | Federal Weapons Policy in D.C. | 45:14 | 48:19 | | Abrego Selective Prosecution | 48:48 | 54:38 | | Revoking NatSec Security Clearances | 54:40 | 56:24 | | Listener Q&A and Comments | 56:36 | 61:39 |
Tone & Style
The hosts mix irreverent humor, sharp skepticism, and insider expertise. Allison Gill often brings snark and sarcasm to institutional absurdities, while McCabe provides methodical, sometimes sobering, insight grounded in firsthand experience. Both express alarm at the erosion of law enforcement professionalism and fair process.
Summary Conclusion
This episode of UnJustified paints a vivid, troubling picture of a justice and law enforcement system under political siege. Through a combination of reporting, analysis, and personal commentary, Gill and McCabe expose a pattern of politicization, loss of norms, and disregard for rule of law—tempered by moments of dark humor and appeals for resilience among career professionals.
The episode ends with a call to vigilance, civic engagement, and collective support for the rule of law as the only antidote to mounting institutional decay.