The One Where Charisma Carpenter and I Save The World

Summary

Summary of "Unlearn16: Class is in Session" - Episode: The One Where Charisma Carpenter and I Save The World

Introduction and Welcome

The episode kicks off with Host A warmly welcoming listeners to "Unlearn16," introducing the special guest, Charisma Carpenter, renowned for her roles in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and its spin-off "Angel." The hosts engage in lighthearted banter, setting a relaxed and engaging tone for the discussion. Charisma humorously remarks, “I like. I'm sweating a little bit, hun. Look at how red my face is” (00:03), highlighting the informal and personable nature of the conversation.

Authenticity and Acting

Charisma discusses the essence of acting, emphasizing the importance of authenticity in her performances. She reflects on her character Cordelia in "Angel," detailing her transformation from a privileged antagonist to a more vulnerable and empathetic figure. Host A notes, “Listening to the way you speak of... there’s an authentic respect there that I really appreciate” (05:20), underscoring the genuine connection Charisma brings to her roles.

Impact of "Buffy" and "Angel" on Fans

The conversation delves into the lasting impact of "Buffy" and "Angel" on their dedicated fanbase. Charisma shares heartfelt anecdotes about interactions at conventions and hearing from fans who have been deeply influenced by the shows. She states, “The show is so witty and the talent behind the screen... just perfectly encapsulated what it feels like to be isolated, to not belong” (06:24), highlighting the show's enduring relevance and emotional resonance.

Personal Stories and Social Media

Charisma recounts a personal story about discovering that Cynthia Erivo, a fellow actress, was following her on Instagram. This revelation led to surprise and curiosity about online connections. She explains, “She follows, like, 37. 30,” (03:23) illustrating the complexities and unexpected interactions that come with celebrity and social media presence.

Acting Preparation and Challenges

The discussion shifts to the rigorous preparation involved in acting. Charisma describes her experience preparing for pivotal episodes in "Angel," particularly episode nine, where her character gains profound visions. She shares, “I worked with Iris Klein... she became my onset coach as well” (05:45), detailing the depth of effort required to authentically portray her character’s evolution.

Economic Challenges in the Acting Industry

Charisma opens up about the financial instability inherent in the acting profession. She highlights the lack of residuals and the precarious nature of freelance work, stating, “I've spent more time unemployed than employed” (73:09). This candid discussion sheds light on the economic realities many actors face, despite occasional high earnings from notable projects.

Transition to Broader Topics: Politics and Society

Host A expresses growing anxiety about the current political climate in the United States, leading to a broader discussion on societal issues. Charisma shares her disillusionment with governmental actions, particularly immigration policies and media control. She passionately states, “I'm completely disillusioned with my country at this moment in time” (42:28), voicing concerns over policies that affect everyday lives and marginalized communities.

The Role of Media and Authenticity in Politics

Both hosts critique the current media landscape and the role of authenticity in political discourse. They argue that authentic, intelligent conversations are essential to bridge political divides and counteract manipulative tactics used in media and politics. Host A remarks, “Authenticity, which is why... people are starved for authenticity” (40:53), emphasizing the need for genuine dialogue in fostering understanding and unity.

Empowerment Through Storytelling and Community Building

The hosts emphasize the power of storytelling and community engagement in driving social change. They advocate for using platforms like podcasts to share authentic stories, empower individuals, and build supportive communities. Charisma highlights, “Nobody thinks of me as just this elitist person... I just want to be a light in the world” (95:31), underscoring her commitment to using her platform for positive influence.

Optimism and the Future of Change

Despite the challenges discussed, both hosts remain optimistic about the future. They believe in the collective ability to drive change through empathy, education, and authentic engagement. Charisma asserts, “We have more power than we could possibly think of” (86:44), encouraging listeners to harness their influence for societal progress.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a return to lighter topics and playful interactions, including teasing future content and personal anecdotes. Host A reflects on the meaning of "Unlearn16," explaining its focus on shedding prejudices to make room for genuine learning and progress. The final remarks emphasize the importance of storytelling and authentic dialogue in fostering a more empathetic and unified society. Charisma and Host A leave listeners with a message of empowerment and the crucial role of authenticity in driving meaningful change.

Notable Quotes:

• Charisma Carpenter: “It has to be a part of it, but you're going to go into it being funny, making fun of it, acknowledging” (16:35).

• Host A: "We need more people occupying this space in an authentic, intelligent way on the other side" (53:28).

• Charisma Carpenter: “Nobody wants financial literacy because you can’t control the population if they are educated” (74:10).

• Host A: “We have more power than we could possibly think of” (86:44).

• Charisma Carpenter: “Nobody thinks of me as just this elitist person. I just want to be a light in the world” (95:31).

Overall Insights:

This episode of "Unlearn16" profoundly explores themes of authenticity in acting, the enduring impact of beloved TV shows on their fanbase, and the intersection of personal experiences with broader societal and political issues. Charisma Carpenter provides valuable insights into the challenges of maintaining authenticity amidst fame, while both hosts encourage listeners to engage meaningfully with their communities and advocate for social and economic reforms. The conversation underscores the power of storytelling and genuine dialogue in driving social change and fostering a more empathetic society.

Transcript

[A]

Classes in session, guys. Welcome to Unlearn 16. Class is in session, guys. My head's gonna explode. I can't. Sitting with me. Not actually sitting with me. Although I would have flown there had she said that was. I would have been like New York. Fine, I'll be right there. The one and only charisma Carpenter. I like. I'm sweating a little bit, hun. Look at how red my face is.

[B]

Oh my God. Oh, you're funny.

[A]

Oh no.

[B]

Because only when the cameras are rolling, it's like you're an actor. It's like all of a sudden you're blushing. She knows how to work the camera people. She's an actress in her own right.

[A]

A performer.

[B]

Do you know that they're like in the Sanford Meisner technique. Like there is. I can't remember the name of the actress, but that she's a famous actress back in the day. That why she's famous is because while she was in the moment to moment, she blushed and she was. She believed in this scenario so much. But behind the scenes, y'all, behind the curtain, she was just fine five minutes ago. Listen, I got. Look, yeah, it's all, it's all acting.

[A]

I'm not really. I'm not really starstruck.

[B]

Forget that.

[A]

Who's your favorite all time actor? All time.

[B]

I'm saying questions. Say again.

[A]

50S and 60s, you know, like that era, like 40s to. In that vibe.

[B]

I'm gonna say right off the top of my head, Natalie Wood, because I just saw Splendor on the grass recently.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And it was such a performance. She was so incredible. Her eyes are so expressive and she said so much without even using her words. I loved, I loved watching that and her. That's right off the top of my head.

[A]

Listen, I know that you know Buffy, angel, all of those things, Kendall. But to be honest, I just saw that you're going to go have lunch with Cynthia. Cynthia Erivo. So can we focus on the important part?

[B]

Okay, hold up. Cynthia. That. First of all, first of all, my girlfriend, I have this, this, this young person in my life that I call her my fairy. She calls me her fairy God mom and I call her my fairy God daughter. I don't know her. We're not related. But I mean, I know her, but I mean I don't. I don't have like. I don't know how to explain it.

[A]

She.

[B]

I don't know why she wants to hang out with me all the time, but she does. So anyway. She's very, very young and she's in pr, and that's not how I met her. But anyway, it's a. That's an interesting story. But anyway, Haley comes over to my house. We're just going to hang out. And then she said when she was looking up to see if one of her clients was still being followed by Cynthia because they were both performing at the Oscars, I think, last year. And so her name is Chrissy from this Is Us. That's one of her clients. And so she was, like, wanting to find out if Cynthia still followed Chrissy. And so while she was looking that up, she's like, holy shit. She follows charisma. And I didn't know. And I don't know how I don't know this. I don't always get notified when people follow me.

[A]

It's just too horrible.

[B]

It's just crazy. So she comes up, oh, by the way, did you know that Cynthia follows you? And I go, what do you mean, she? Wait, what? And I was losing my mind, as you saw on my TikTok video, just cuckoo bananas. And then I said, can we do lunch? And I'm going to check my DMs right now to see if she responded. Do you imagine it was sent three days ago? No word. She did just get nominated for an Oscar, though. She might be beside herself list.

[A]

You can be beside yourself and get a, you know, get some, some sandwiches at the same time. Cynthia, come on.

[B]

Waiting. I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to give her some grace and some space. You know, maybe I should DM her on Instagram maybe, like. But she can I just tell you, she follows, like, 37. 30. She felt like 30. I think I might be the 37th person.

[A]

Listen. Oh, my God, she does. That is the power. And I'm gonna come. I, I, I, you know, I'm gonna put Cynthia. Oversight. And if you ever need somebody to drive to lunch, if you guys want somebody to just, like, I will fly down and whatever. Just. Yeah, I'm gonna put that off right there. But when I read what she wrote and she, she addressed Cordelia Chase.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I talk about Buffy, I sound, I understand that I sound insane, because when you talk about a television show, the way that a lot of people speak about Buffy, a lot of an angel, for that matter, a lot of people kind of look at you and, you know. Oh. Like, they, they. Because they don't get it. They don't get it unless they've gone through it. And that was one of her first statements about how powerful that character was and how powerful you were in that role. That's got to feel insane. Do you get the weight of it?

[B]

I mean. Yeah, I do.

[A]

You do?

[B]

It's not lost on me to have like someone of her caliber and her, you know, she's so accomplished and with all the accolades, but also just the unreal talent, you know, just to have talent recognize someone of that caliber with that level of talent, to recognize me while as a professional actress was. Is. Is. It's just.

[A]

No, no, you're missing my point. You thought I meant the weight of her liking you. No, no, no, no. I meant the weight of the power of. Of you in those roles. Yes. And what you brought to this. No, no, no. Cynthia Rivo is amazing. Like wicked. I can't. I cried. I can't. I don't even talk about it. I'll blush more. But what I'm talking about is that character was so powerful for her and so powerful for so many people for so many different reasons. That's the way I'm talking. And the show has been off the air since when? Almost.

[B]

Well, the first airing, I think was 27 years. So it's been over 20 years because I think it went for so many seasons. Yeah, it's wild. It's so wild. And it's really wild when I go to conventions and I meet people that, you know, were. Were fans of the show while it was still airing and then to see them with their children and just. Or tell me they named their dog or their cat Cordelia. Yeah, I mean, it's really something else. It's really very. A very special fandom. It's a rabid fandom. And. And I honestly have a lot of respect for the fans because I know I'm a part of the show. So it makes it sound like I'm congratulating myself because I'm on the show. I really think that you have good taste. If you like Buffy and Angel, you have really good taste in television. And I don't mean that in some like, self congratulatory way. I do, do truly mean. Because the show is so witty and the talent behind the screen and like in the offices writing and just the, the timing of it and it just so perfectly encapsulated what it feels like to be isolated, to not belong or to, you know, the, the. The different demands on a. On the youth and people and adults really not getting what true love feels like when you're younger and just. There's just so many themes. Feeling invisible that speaks to people to this day. That's what makes it still so special. I think people relate still. It was a great show.

[A]

Who's your favorite?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Who's your favorite? And I'll. And I'll be like, that's the beauty of the show. The show doesn't work.

[B]

No, no, no. You have to say I'm your favorite. Charisma is my favorite. Okay, now go ahead.

[A]

Charisma. Listen, listen. I was going to point this out right now, but that is the only. One of the only Buffy tattoo. So I have slayers up here, but I do have pieces. We get the pieces. Our job sucks. Right around my wrist.

[B]

I don't know what that means.

[A]

You said it. You said it. When the judge blew up. Look, I'm gonna. Really, guys.

[B]

When the judge blew up. The judge.

[A]

The judge. You know, the blue guy.

[B]

An Angel.

[A]

Nope, the judge. Angel was on it before.

[B]

Oh, my God. I have to re. Watch my show. I have no idea.

[A]

Yeah, but you don't. You don't necessarily sit down and watch it. Although I am fascinated by how many. How many things you really do remember. But it was a fair. Like the. The guy exploded. Everybody says, pick him up. And Oz goes arm. And you're like, pieces. We get the pieces. Our job sucks. Which, by the way, I think is just one of, like, in life. I love the life application of quotes that I can use from that show because I think they're so incredibly powerful. It was when angel was bad. It was in that season two era.

[B]

But why did that resonate with you in real life?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

When did you use it? Why did that resonate with you so much so that you tattooed it? And then two, I need to know in what context you've used that in life.

[A]

I think it's. It's very much like sometimes when you're doing a job, sometimes when there's things you have to do in your life, you get stuck doing the thing that you don't want to do. You have no desire to do it, but you do it anyway because it's handling. And I don't mean this metaphorically, but it's like handling the small pieces of life that sometimes feel overwhelming, annoying, disempowering. And you're like, my job sucks because I'm going to have to clean all of this up. Whether it be figuratively or metaphorically, but knowing full well there's humor in that. Knowing full well that. And that's. That's the brilliance of the show. Knowing full well that there's an idea that you have to be a part of it, but you're going to go into it being funny, making fun of it, acknowledging. I don't know why it's such a problem to acknowledge when life sucks and things are hard. Because not everything's, you know, shades of roses and puppy dogs. Like, I have a friend who's a mom, and she'll talk about how hard it is to be a mom, right? Sometimes she'll say, today sucked. I went to the park. I was. I don't want. The slide bores me today. And she'll get all these people that condemn her. You're such a bad mom. Every day's a blessing. And she's like, no, no. I love my kid, but sometimes things are hard, things are boring things.

[B]

I gotta interject. Did anybody see that movie with Paul Rudd and Leslie mann, this is 40 or something, where she literally goes, God, my kid's an asshole. God, he's an asshole.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That's such an asshole thing. You've got to. Come on.

[A]

You have to.

[B]

This is not realistic. It's not realistic to be like, oh, my child is the. Like, of course my son is the love of my life. He is my reason. But also, he can be an asshole. Thank you, by the way. So can I. And I can also fail, and I can also disappoint and lose my shit and, like, act like I have my shit together and I have all the answers when I don't, you know? Like, it's just so stupid if you can't be real. I have no tolerance for inauthenticity. I just can't do that.

[A]

There we go. And there we go. And that's what really drew me to you. Like, listening to the way you speak of. Sure. Buffy and angel and, you know, Veronica Mars. I mean, those shows are amazing, but it's the authenticity from which you speak. And I also have a lot of respect. I mean, this show's been off the air for a minute. And the way that you still respect and honor it, I also find impressive because there are some, let's say, actors or actresses who really want to move on and be like, listen, that was a long time ago. Can we talk about this project? Or can we talk? You know, they're just like, that's not me anymore. But you really do. You honor the people that are standing in front of you. I mean, I've met you at Comic Con before, but you really do honor that. And there's an authentic respect there that I really appreciate.

[B]

Thank you. I do Feel that way though, about the show because it was an enormous part of my life. A lot of people go to college, right. Think about how people feel about their college experiences. And they remember their, they remember their professors, they remember their love, they remember their heartbreak, they remember their field tests. Like, you know, this was my college. This was. But, you know, it was 10 years and those relationships were defining and those experiences are visceral. You know, it was, it was so all encompassing. You know, being on a set, you know, when you're rehearsing lines or you're actually filming and you're on camera, you have to be so fucking present. Like, there's no way to be anything else but absolutely present in that moment while you're doing that job. And when you're living your life on set, moment to moment, authentically present there. That's incredible to really be present. I love that acting makes me or requires me to be absolutely listening and present. That never happens in today's life, but with all the distractions that exist. But also when you go into life, we are this group of people that are slowly but surely gaining momentum and popularity. And Sarah's on the COVID of Rolling Stone and then on snl and then we're doing talk shows and journalists, you know, TV Guide or like, what is your life? How is it different? We're also, these relationships only is unique to only us. Right. Like, it's only our experience. And the way that the show is kind of molding our life from this day forward, it's a very, very, very unique situation and impactful. So to act as if that didn't happen, it's not important and it isn't. Wasn't life changing. Life molding would be 110% denying my humanity.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Just be like, I'm not even human. To just take 10 years of your life, like that didn't happen, you know, and, oh, now I want to focus on this other job.

[A]

Right, right, right. I mean, by all means, focus on the other job. It's not that, that's not important. I, that the idea that in that moment, I love this so much that in the moment of acting that you have to be present. All your faculties, everything has to be there, is the most incredible thing that anybody can do in their life. However you do that, Right. Like for you, obviously it's acting, but to me that's the most powerful thing. Like, and I'm terrified of acting. I, I, I, I did a very small, I did a play.

[B]

I don't believe you. I'm sorry. I've seen your tiktoks. You're. You're.

[A]

It is. It is. I. I was talked into doing a play because it was post Covid, it was at my school. It was Sweat by Lynn Nottage, which was an incredible play. And the director is one of my best friends. He's like, joe, if you don't do this role, the kid dropped out. The whole play's gonna go. And I'm like, okay, fine, I'll do it. And it kind of happened in a time in my life where I decided I was just gonna say yes. And then I realized it was pretty much the biggest role in the play. And I was nauseous and terrified for the entire lead up. Thank God I got called late. The entire lead up? The whole play. Thank God we have video, because I have you. I blanked out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nothing was more scary than that. But I'll tell you what, I've never been so proud of doing something. And what I was fascinated by was that it tapped more into who I am than anything I've ever done. Why is that?

[B]

Because you were out of your comfort zone. And it was a demand that required you to rise to the occasion. It was a character defining moment where, like, you're not used to being on stage on the spot, you know, recalling things that you had to memorize and hoping that you did memorize it and that when you're on stage, you don't blink. I've had that happen. You know, Barbra Streisand still throws up before every concert. She does.

[A]

I do know that. I do know that.

[B]

Never get used to it. Like, I never. I have shit the bed in so many auditions, especially when it's an important one that you really, really want. Like, I've literally said, you know what? I get to start over. And you can't. You. It's just acting has taught me so much about myself as well. I just want to just lay into that. Like, I get that. Like, it is. And it is about, how do you recover? How resilient are you? How willing are you to go out on a limb? How willing are you to be outside of your comfort zone? How willing are you to take risks? How willing are you to lay it all in the line? And, you know, being an actor is really economically up and down. You're. You know, it's just. It's a huge gamble, and you have to go like, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. This is what I choose to do. You know, I'M assigning myself a lifetime of, you know, just so much. So much. No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So much. No.

[A]

I can imagine. Yeah.

[B]

You know, that you, you really do find out who you are and what's important to you. And I believe those obstacles are in your way for a reason. It's to. How bad do I freaking want it? You know, And I just think that's a, that's a really good thing to know about yourself. What do I want and to what extent am I willing to go to get it? Yeah, I mean, I wonder, too.

[A]

I wasn't good. Charisma. Like, I, I, I know I wasn't good and, and I, I know I was. So when I do tiktoks and I do those things, right, there might be exaggerated elements of me and, and maybe a little bit more of a, of a tongue in cheek kind of thing, but there's still ele. I remember Ryan, who's the director, and, and him saying, joe, I'm going to need you to not be you so much. I'm like, I don't, I don't know what the hell that means. Like, what do you mean, not be me? He's like, you, you gesture a lot, right? That's how you express yourself. The kids know you gesture a lot. The, the audience, the, the parents are going to know you gesture a lot. So here's what I need you to do. Pack it away just, just for a minute, just to find the character. And I'm like, Because all these. And then I realized how much I, I depend on gestures and in order to gain attention and keep attention and things like that. And he made me stand in a level of, I'm gonna suck at this. That's okay. You know who helped me? My students. And, and number two, I won't suck forever.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I think there's something powerful in that, doing something that you're not good at.

[B]

So that's brave. I remember when my son was little and we would go, we, we enrolled him in soccer because he wanted to play soccer. We believe in team sports. And so he's probably four or five. And you know, when you're, when those kids are in there, they're like, all mobbing the ball. The ball doesn't have a chance of going anywhere because they're just, yeah, it's just like that all the way around. Then, you know, we're, he's like, fine with it. He's like. And then he scores a goal. And the second he scored a goal, it was on.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

When you Get a win. Like, you try a thing. You try a thing and you try, try, try again, and you get a win. It sustains you and you keep going back for the win. And I think that's really important. So failing just. If you don't learn from your failures, then you're not learning. You're not in life. You're not engaging. You're not taking risks. That's. That's. Risks are not for everyone. No, you know, it's not. It's just those are not my people. Meaning, like, it's not. I don't identify or relate as well to those types of people. I invite and encourage everyone, always, to get outside your comfort zone and to fall on your face and try, try, try again. It's like, I have this company, mic on. You know, it may never take off, but you know what? I'm not giving up. I may have, like, I don't know how many subscribers. I only have so many. But, like, I love it. It makes me happy. It may never take off, but I have a better chance of it taking off by staying in it. You know what I'm saying? It's like you miss 100% of the shots not taken.

[A]

Well, sorry. So what's your company? So your company's called mycon, right? Yeah.

[B]

My con is like my convention.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I started it during the pandemic when the world shut down and I was getting a lot of distress. DMs on social media, and I really saw an opportunity, a call to action, if you will. The fandom of Buffy and Angel is like, none other. And they've been loyal and good to me. And I said, what can I do to give back? So I said, you know what I'm gonna do? Free shout outs. So if you need words of encouragement, if you're feeling kind of scared, like, just DM me and I'll send you a free shout out. Wow. I had to stop it, like, after, like, 12 hours. Like, oh, my God, I can't manage this. This is too much. Because I didn't expect so much vulnerability. I didn't expect so much need. And I wasn't set up for that, that level of demand. So I didn't. I didn't even. I didn't have an email. I could have done it. You know, I was trying to do it on the app. Then, you know, I had to go over to Snapchat, you know, to film it and then. Then download it. And it was just so arduous a process. It took me, like, six months to get through all of that, even after just shutting it down after 12 hours, like, okay, I can't take any more orders. And it took me six months to fulfill those orders. And. And then at that point in time, I was like, you know what? I should make this a business, because this gives people access to me that they maybe normally couldn't. And especially in the throes of the pandemic, still, even after a year, a lot of people were still immune compromised. They didn't feel safe in public settings. You know, the mask issues, you know, there was just so much fear until people could start to get immunized that I thought I should just make. Make myself available all the time for this. And so I did. And I've been doing it, you know, since then, since the end of or the beginning of 2021. And that's my story.

[A]

Do you find it's fascinating? I mean, I get, like, a tiny fraction of it. Do you find it fascinating how much people open up to you, how much comfort you genuinely give them, like, because of the character that you portrayed and because of the authenticity that they feel? Or do you just feel connected to people in a way? Like, I mean, TikTok really gave. I know you're.

[B]

You.

[A]

You just came into TikTok, but TikTok really allowed for a sense of community. Yeah, I was blown away. Like, I just kind of rolled into it and fell into it. And all of a sudden, when it was going to go away there for a second, I felt the worst for the people exactly like you described, because there's still people that don't have that access point. Right. That maybe aren't the most social people in the world. Maybe they live in a specific area where there's no way they're going to get that kind of community. And they don't even, you know, give it a go, or there's economic or physical limitations to all of those things. And now they could have access, and. Which is why I do so many lives. But do you find. Are you surprised by how many people take comfort in that and genuinely are inspired?

[B]

Well, initially, I was for a really long time. And then maybe in the last five years, I had somebody explain it to me, because why I say that is I wasn't Willow Rosenberg. I wasn't Buffy. I wasn't like those characters that were warm and fuzzy. I was more prickly, and then grew and change, changed over time. But I really did not. People really didn't. I didn't think. But I learned otherwise. Cordelia didn't resonate with a lot of folks. So it wasn't until later, you know, I had. My brother was dating a guy, and my brother went to the bathroom, and we were at breakfast here in New York, visiting, and he said, do you know how much Cordelia means to me? And I was like. I was really caught off guard. I said, no. And he's like, let me tell you what it means to me. And why. Because I'm like, why do you resonate. Why does Cordelia. Like, she was a brat. She was like. He's like, no, she was real. She was authentic. She used her voice. And whether or not I agreed with what she was saying, she was true to herself. And I really hadn't experienced. Experienced that. And it gave me courage to also do the same. And I was like, oh, okay. So I get it. So, you know the mean part, you know, it's good to know they've seen the softer side of Sears. Like, that line, you know, really set it up for Cordelia to be the mean girl. And it wasn't until later, you know, they started peppering things in, you know, giving insight to who Cordelia really was. Like, her mom neglected her because she was tired, and her dad was never there. And she seemed like this rich person, but she always felt alone, surrounded by tons of people. And it's like, well, then why do you do it? Buffy said, and it's like, well, it's better to feel alone, you know, in a group of people than all by yourself.

[A]

So one of my most favorite lines was when she said, tact is saying stuff that's not true.

[B]

I'll pass. Tact is saying is saying stuff that's.

[A]

Not true, isn't it?

[B]

Tact is just not saying, oh, you got me thrown here. You put it in my head. I'll pass. She says, tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass. There we go. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

One of my.

[B]

One of my favorites is that's just propaganda spouted out by the ugly and less deserving. The ugly and less deserving. What does that mean? Cordelia? And then, like, when Xander says something about, oh, look at. Here's Cordelia Chase something. The beautiful and the rich and the beautiful. Oh, and I go, I guess that, you know, excludes you twice. Listen, Xander, I don't mean to interrupt her downward mobility. There are just so many good ones.

[A]

But it's so that the thing about her is that without her, you don't have. Again, it's the whole cast, right? You don't have a very typical I've been teaching high school for 23 years. You don't have. Yeah, that's how long. 23. You don't have that typical archetype that absolutely exists. And as a teacher, you know why it exists, right? It doesn't exist. When I was watching the show, it doesn't exist because these kids are so filled with empowerment and esteem.

[B]

It exists.

[A]

No, it exists for the exact opposite.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And that's the. The sort of. The interesting through line about that show. And then. And then rolling into angel as well, I think. Did you find. How did you find it different working on Buffy and Angel? Let's say maybe thematically or. Or how you thought the show presented differently? Or did you think. Did you think it was just a continuation or. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[B]

Did I think it was a continuation? Yes, the character technically does, but it was. She now had lost everything. So this is a sort of new pov. We're experiencing Cordelia in a have not situation. And also we're learning. Look what her dream is. She wants to be an actress. And we're watching her fail miserably at that. And so then what is she good at? She's good at being organized. She's good at, you know, monetization. And she's good at, like, all these different things. So she saw an opportunity to find a way to support herself and stay and help angel with his mission. But obviously, there was something in it for her initially. But we. What I loved about angel is I gave. We flesh her out more. You know, we start to see more vulnerability in her. We get to see her start to adopt a team spirit. And then ultimately, in episode nine, she gets the visions and then she sees the suffering that exists in the world. And she's completely humbled and realizes, oh, this is why we do what we do. And we have to keep doing it. We need to help people. And that was incredible. I remember that episode so vividly. And I remember all the preparation that I went into when I was going to experience the visions, because that was another part of the role that was new and added to Cordelia's pov, this new POV of who she is versus Buffy. And that was she's getting these visions. So as an actor, how an actor prepares for such a thing. It was really fascinating. I worked with Iris Klein. She's a fantastic acting coach there in la. I cannot tell you what she. How she added to my life. When you have an acting teacher, you know, you don't want to. A lot of Acting teachers want to kind of break you down and make you like small and humiliated and all that. And her. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know what the psychology is behind it. I'm sure people. I don't. I never stuck around for that. So I don't, I don't know what the reasoning was. I just wasn't into it. And I found that Iris was so. I always had a complicated relationship with my mother. And so to come across Iris at this point in my life to have this like this warm, warm woman, this mother Earth vibe, you know, just so tolerant and loving and soft. You know, she just had a soft touch. You know, she was never critical, she was never, I had never experienced that. So to have her coach me through those scenes and she became my onset. I would run lines with her all the time. So she became my. On my onset coach as well. But while I was preparing for episode nine, you know, she was walking me through, you know, what do you see when you close your eyes? What do you imagine real suffering to look like? You know, so it was. We went to the library and we started looking at the Vietnam War. We started looking at war in general. We started talking about the Holocaust. We started looking at all the things throughout history, you know, different diseases, you know, in north of New Zealand, what is it? The. No, Maui is. The Maui are in, are in Hawaii, but it's north of New Zealand and they're tribal and all the people that had leprosy was sent there. They were pygmies. I don't. Can't remember the name of the, the island. But anyway, like just going through, like looking at what leprosy looks like, looking, looking at what domestic violence looks like. So I was just like. So every time I close my eyes, I would have actual pictures in my mind and just, you know, actually experiencing it. And I don't know, it's just my job is so fucking interesting. You know, it's just you have to learn about things, you have to educate yourself on things. And it's just always so surprising and it's nothing it can ever harness. I can never feel like, oh, I've arrived. I'm, you know, critically acclaimed actor on this award winning show. Like, I think that that's why people that win Oscars keep going. Because it's not, it's not the accolade, it's literally the joy, the, that never being able to harness it, the striving for excellence, the wanting to be in a moment and being present 1000% present. It's just so hard to do that. And I just love how it scares the shit out of me. Auditions scare the shit out of me. You have a big monologue, you're scared shitless. You know, I think of God bless her, Anne Heche, but I remember reading an article about her and how she was in some big, big special effects movie, and it was like some volcanoes exploding or something. And they have like, one take, because that one take is like a $250,000 take because of the pyrotechnics and all the special effects and all the things like you can't fuck up your dialogue. Talk about pressure. Like, you have to get it right, you know? And it's like, am I going to get right? And so it's like, this is a. This is. It's like I hate being under pressure, so I have to do it. I make no sense. I make no. That makes.

[A]

That makes perfect. And I also. So going back to her, it's interesting. The part that you really resonates about the character in that moment was obviously, I guess, a metaphysical or a supernatural version, because this is what I think these shows did so well. They take a human. A human thing, and they make it supernatural. And the human thing that you felt and that you saw was empathy. That was it you were feeling. If. If you have somebody that's empathetic or you have somebody like, you just took it to a 10. Right. But you're describing being an actor and achieving that as, how do I. How do I enact? How do I gain? How do I get to full empathy? And that's scary. It must be exhausting. It must be painful. But it. It would present the most beautiful connection to life and to people. And I think that's what people are drawn to with you. Yes, Cordelia, yes. You know, you're. What you do. But I think it's that empathy, just the way you've described what you went through in order to get to where you needed to be. That's what people are impressed by, in my opinion.

[B]

I just call it preparation. I think, like, all actors do their version of it, you know, But I think different.

[A]

I mean, listen, different actors, and maybe different actors and different people in general sort of are more guarded with it and more limited and more standoffish for their own particular reasons. Because I think to be an actor, like, to. To really jump in. It's. You're. It's like you're vulnerable all the time. So I think for some people, then they shutter it off. They close it off and they call it a day and maybe not with their friends and family. I think, I think even the way you talk about your relationships with other female actors, like I've seen some people in the comments kind of, you know, what about your relationship with Sarah or what about this or what about. And they're trying to, they're trying to push the needle towards you, saying something about your, your co stars specifically pitting women against women, and you never, ever take the bait, ever.

[B]

I really want to actually more than not take the bait, call it out. Yeah, there is a real toxicity in that that I don't want to participate in and encourage others to not participate in it also, because now more than ever, I mean, in today's political climate, especially, you know, and actually going harkening back to 2015 when all that was going on and, you know, we'll leave like names out, but I feel like there was a real tendency to just get really toxic and to name call and be nasty and mock people and get involved in infighting. And that is a part of humanity that doesn't need amplification. It's there, it exists. We don't need to give it more time and attention or energy. And even though I am giving it energy by addressing it, I just think it's important to go, we're not doing that. We're not doing that in 2025. This isn't. We don't need help, you know, being shitty with each other. You know, let's, let's, let's lean into the good stuff, you know, and that's, you know, when, when I'm going to do this podcast and when I do do the podcast, you know, there's going to be. They're gonna. There isn't, you know, like, what's the tea? You know, and when I say the tea, like, you know, I'm going with the good tea. I'm going with the tea that is like uplifting and community building and unifying. You know, we had enough toxicity that we were dealing with at the time. I'm not interested in reliving that. I'm really more interested in giving insights behind the scenes, you know, process giving. I mean, I don't know about you, but, like, I want to know about people's process. I want to know about how they arrived at a scene. I want to know, like, what was going on. Like, oh, in this scene, right before this, Nikki and I knew we had to kiss. So we decided that we were going to eat the grossest food possible to see who could have the worst breath and just, you know, like, those are the sorts of things that I think are fun and, you know, uplifting and, you know, because there's been enough of the negative, like, let's talk about the yummy. You know, the good stuff.

[A]

And I just think that's true outside of acting, outside of everything like that. I think. I think culturally we've been very. We've been very conditioned to. To like the gossip, to like, by the way, which. 9 times, 9.9 times out of 10. It's never true anyways. But to be. To be drawn into that. But I really do think our souls, I believe. Sorry.

[B]

Can you see me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

What's happened?

[B]

I was trying to turn off my notifications and I pushed a button and then you were gone. I don't know.

[A]

We're still here. You would have just. You would have just pushed a notification and then it would have covered the. Can you see me now?

[B]

I don't see you. Damn it. Google Chrome.

[A]

I think you just probably have to click on the. The app again. Like, you know, where. Where we were filming again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This could be like a Jeopardy moment. I could sing if you like.

[B]

You couldn't join the room because you've already joined the room.

[A]

You're in the room. You're already in the room.

[B]

And I have. And I have a. A tech company. Oh, my God. Okay. Hi. That was funny.

[A]

Yeah. I think people want the good.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, some people do and some people don't. And those people can off put that.

[A]

On a T shirt. The world we're living in.

[B]

So.

[A]

So going right from that, talking about how, like, right now, I have to say the last month I have felt anxious, More anxious than I think I've ever felt before.

[B]

Imagine American. Imagine being a young gay person in the U.S. imagine being a person of color in the U.S. imagine Being a woman in the U.S. where we are literally, we voted in a sex offender, you know, and he's systematically taken. Dismantled any government website that helps women get reproductive care that he has taken down. I just, you know, I just can't unleashed ICE and National Guard to deport 10 million people. And I think that this is a very controversial thing. People are like, well, they don't belong here. And they're all, you know, terrible word. Insert terrible word there. And you just have to think. I just have to think to myself, like the. The naysayers are kind of going there, and they're saying, well, there he's just deporting the criminals first. And that's not true because my girlfriend who lives in Arizona was telling me that they've just raided an apartment complex near her. My friend. I have family members that are teachers. They've all been getting warnings and they're trying to figure out ways now that the Cheeto in charge has decided that churches and schools are not safe havens for people. So. And I think, like, as I put on my TikTok, has anybody thought this through? Like, haven't our kids, like, if you want to deport families, I'm sorry, this is the land built on immigration or, you know, immigrants. And also, who's going to fill those jobs? Who's going to want to do those jobs? And have you realized what, what is the supply chain issues that's going to bring up and how that's going to drive up price of eggs that you reason why you voted for them in the first place? And like, nobody's thinking this through, but, you know, we'll be safe if you, if we can't police effectively, you know, with. And absorb these things. Like, I don't, I don't even know what to say. I'm not a politician. I'm just a human being. And I'm just watching what's going on and just thinking, this is not the solution. We've removed ourselves from the Paris Accords, we don't give a shit about our world health, our climate, and now we're withdrawing from fema. And so in North Carolina, like all the disaster that they had, terrible flooding there, we have a horrible fire in California, and we're going to remove any kind of support. I, I do not unders. I. You know, I want to go back to a time when Republicans were like John McCain and Jimmy Carter, you know, not Reagan, because he started all this, put a lot of vulnerable people on the street because of his state hospital budget cuts. I'm completely disillusioned with my country at this moment in time and just utterly shocked by fellow women betraying each other. I think that is probably the most devastating thing about it. More disappointing than having him in office is the women that voted him in.

[A]

Just to a big, to a big level. I absolutely agree. I think that it's like when Buffy was on in that era, it was, it was not ahead of it. Well, it was, it was ahead of its time because. I know, but like you, they had almost got canceled many, many, many of times. It kept bouncing around networks because to me, it was just a little ahead of the gambit, right? Like, it's this, the themes and the ideas need to be applied now. But when you speak about Reagan, like I remember, so when Reagan was president, Brian Mulroney was Prime Minister of Canada and they were very, very in sync. And I, and I don't know if you remember his presidency, you know, physically remember that shift in your culture. But that's what the pendulum has done, right? It goes Jimmy Carter. You couldn't have somebody more left than this beautiful soul of a person who wants to build houses and protect everybody. And then everybody shifted the other way.

[B]

Christian, he believed in, he had the Christian values that I believed in. Where you do feed the poor and you, you know, social programs, to me, I feel like high tides rise all boats. You know, you're gonna have, if you wanna fight crime, have more social programs. If you're losing billions of dollars in small businesses and also big department stores. I remember when I left la, they were doing these crash and grabs where they would just literally drive into a department store, crash the windows down, everybody get out and just snatch and grab all they could. And all of this was happening. And you're literally going, why? Oh, could it be that in the last, we haven't had a minimum wage increase? Oh, I think 18 or 19 years. And yet the CEOs, like just since the election in November, each billionaire, the top three billionaires here in the us, Zuckerberg, Bezos and Elon Musk have. Oh, yeah, the hoarding of the wealth is just unreal. But people can't even at Starbucks, for instance, they do this thing, you know, again, that's another thing they're implementing is they're going to union bust. Where, you know, really do laws that don't allow for unionized uni unionization. What do you. Do people not realize like why unions came into place? Because the working conditions were terrible. Like so many Amazon drivers are having to pee in bottles. They're having to. It's just, it's not. I just can't. I just.

[A]

It's. It's the, it's the empathy. Can I. I'm good. First of all, it's going to get better. I'm going to say that out loud and I'm going to say that with my full chest. The pendulum always swings. So when you have the 60s civil rights movement, it came from a place of such horrific devastation and oppression and then it swung right. It will swing back. And when it swings back, what I'm interested in is how it swings back, who leads the charge? And a lot of people are talking about what's going on in the United States with The, you know, 72 million voted for him and 70 million voted for her. You know what I want to know? Can we talk to the 90% that.

[B]

Didn'T vote at all?

[A]

We talked to the 90 million. Those are the only people I want to talk to.

[B]

I understand them. I mean, I don't agree with it because you, you really, the choices could not be more polarizing, but the, the idea is I don't like either candidate. And what's happened in the United States is people that vote for the third party aren't. Those people aren't on, on the ballots in all of the states. So you vote for that, you're literally doing a vote for the person, right? The worst person, because it doesn't count. And so then if you're not voting for the person that actually embodies the change that you want to see, then you're voting for the person that doesn't. When you vote for a third party, we don't have, I think a lot of Americans have issue with the two party system. I think that's a failure that needs to be addressed. I don't think there's an heir apparent. We don't have anybody that I can think of right now. I mean, I would love Peter Buttigieg to be, I think he served. He's smart, he's eloquent, he's. He's a leader. You know, he didn't do well in the primaries. And so, you know, maybe he can't win. And certainly nobody wants anybody in leadership that's gay. And I don't understand that at all. Like, your sex life shouldn't matter. Like what your, your choices shouldn't matter. Are you good for the job? Are you qualified? Are you, do you have good character? And, you know, can you represent us on an international stage? I'm. I don't know. Do we want to go there? Do we want to go there? You know, is this, Is this.

[A]

I like the deep sigh. You know why I like the deep sigh? Because that is exactly what every single person is feeling right now. What you just did is genuinely what every, Everybody just is heavy with that deep sigh and not seeing an avenue, which is why I think it is so incredibly important to keep conversations going, to keep dialogue going, to keep smart, intelligent, articulate people. I read a stat that said something like 72% of people that listen to podcasts voted Republican. Why is that? Because. Because the right is controlling this long form, medium better. There's not enough people, like, I'm, I'm. So happy you're going to start one. There's not enough people occupying this space in an authentic, intelligent way on the other side. And I also think it's about authenticity, which is why, again, I'm going to go back to your acting. I'm going to go back to Buffy. I'm going to go back to the idea that people are starved for authenticity and in absence. Because I think politics in general. Right. You said you're not a politician. Good, because I don't even like. I don't even like the categorization. What I want to hear is articulate people with good ideas who are going to have good discussions without spewing hate. That's what I want. That. That is politics. Right. When you say politician, it's like this job that people are supposed to fit into in this box. And I think the box has killed the 90 million. The 90 million are watching it going. It all seems like they're just playing a bit of a game like matter.

[B]

And, you know, who am I? I'm just one person. And you know, Margaret Mead said, you know, that in protest of that thinking, which is, you know, the ability or what is it, the acts of a small few impacts masses. Something to that effect. Absolutely. I think what you hit on about authenticity is I think people think Trump is authentic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think they think he's real. I think they think like, oh, he's not a politician. He's 100% a politician. He is the President of the United States twice now. You don't think that's what a politician does? Do you don't think a politician doesn't tell you everything you need to hear to get into office so that then he can dismantle everything like that is. That is 100% what he said. But then on the other hand, I have to say, like, everything that he said he was. He also said, you know, the Project 2025 manual that is out, that was written by all of his cabinet members, by the way. But he has nothing to do with Project 2025.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's not going to have or try to have a national banner on abortion. Meanwhile, he's installed three in his first term. The most. I mean, he's really, really, for an absolute megalomaniac, selfish, self centered, vain. All the things that I could call this person. Him and his group have systematically set things up. So smart. And I think the Democrats don't play as dirty. So, like, we deferred. We didn't install a Supreme Court justice when we could have.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Before, and Garland was like, okay, we were not going to go ahead and do this because it's so close to the election. That's not fair or whatever. What did he do?

[A]

No, that was. And by the way, in time you.

[B]

Have, you have like, I'm like, stack the court also, why isn't Biden right before he goes out putting abortion clinics on every federal land imaginable for the last two years so they're protected, but that would just be undone by Trump. I cannot believe he got elected. I just cannot believe this man got elected. And now I really wish I could. I just don't think that people that did vote for him care. And this whole, the whole war in the Middle east that's happening, you know, there's there so many of the Jewish community even here in New York. I mean, I walk my dog. I know people. We'd have street, street corner conversations with people, passersby, and they're just going, I don't feel safe. I don't. Under the Biden administration, I don't feel safe. And I feel like Trump is the only one that's really gonna take care of it and make me feel safe. And I go, can I caution? And they're like, yeah. And I go, do you remember the Black Lives Matter movement? Yeah. How safe do you think they felt under his watch? Didn't they get gassed? Didn't they. Didn't communities get burned down? Didn't like. And then the blaming eventifa and all these different things like how. What makes you think he's going to be able to handle or make you feel any safer when he did not make anybody in that communicate community feel safer before middle and at the end of it, in fact, it led to massive protests and more people getting hurt, more people getting arrested. More, more and more.

[A]

I think there's two. I think there's two things. I think an absence of intelligent, authentic empath. Sorry, intelligent, empathetic authenticity. People will take somebody who appears to be authentic even though their ideas seem crass and horrible and, and very stripped down into the bare bones and almost elementary. It's as though he figured out a way to try to talk like the everyday. I don't think it's true, but like talk like the everyday person. So that I used to think he made mistakes purposefully, grammar mistakes and spelling mistakes purposefully in his little posts. Yeah. Because people are like, see, he's one of them. I never use the right two. Anyway, I like this guy. I'm tired of being made feel so I Think that's number one.

[B]

That is so true. You hit it on the head.

[A]

I would never eat all the things.

[B]

He has a golden toilet. He's your everyday man 100 cares about you workers as he gives his fellows studios all the tax cuts. And there is no more a middle class. And you as the lower quarter of the United States are paying the most in taxes.

[A]

Here, here's what I think. The pin. There's a shift for everything. But it's okay. I'm telling you right now. We're going to every or everybody's going to be all right. We're just going to have to go through this together. But going through this, going through this incredibly hard moment is going to allow and going to pave way for more beauty, more empathy, more progress than you ever could have imagined. Right now.

[B]

Why do you say that? Tell me right now.

[A]

Season seven. I don't. You know, season seven for Buffy, season five for Angel. I mean, I don't like the way angel ended, but that's just me. But it's. It's the moment. It's the moment where you are. You're in a position where you don't think you can win. You're in a position where you feel overpowered. You're in a position where you think they have all of the control and they're doing these horrible things. But it's only in this moment that humanity in general, in general musters and understands that, oh no, that's that evil again, Buffy, or not that evil, if I don't do something about it, that's going to win. And I think in that moment, as I really do believe this, the intelligent, empathetic, amazing community based people on this planet, in the United States, in Canada, all across the world, the 90 million who didn't vote, go. Now it's time. And that's how change happens. Human beings, we're not very smart, we're not very forward thinking. Right. That's why the environment is such a hard thing for us to wrap our heads around and really pour money into. Because that's 20 years down the road, 30 years down the road. We don't do well without an immediate threat. Countries are forged by an immediate threat. Why do you think Trump's trying so hard to create a threat where there isn't one? Because it's the quickest way to galvanize people.

[B]

I think there are threats.

[A]

There is, but that's what I. But that's what I'm saying. He's. He's manufacturing some to galvanize his side.

[B]

What I'm saying is in terms of, like, the caravan headed for the American.

[A]

Sure, it's them. I mean, that's. That's old trope, right? It's them. Don't worry. It doesn't matter who they are. As long as you pick a group of people and you say it's their fault your life is hard. It's their fault you don't have a job. It's their fault. You that mean that's. That's the way it. It is manipulated, you know?

[B]

Yeah. In the bathrooms and all that stuff. I mean, doesn't anybody worry about, like, you know, I. I'm like, what about on the airplane? Don't we all use the same bathroom? Like, what is wrong with you?

[A]

I can't with the bathrooms. The bathroom.

[B]

What is your problem? I don't want to. Like, what. What do you mean?

[A]

It. It is the push. It is again. It's. It's the pendulum we've had. Look, you guys had eight amazing. Even though I don't agree with everything Obama did, you have these eight amazing years. You have this a level of. Of social progress. You have us speaking about emotional intelligence. You have us changing classroom dynamics. You have us understanding that diversity and equity is actually important. Forget nice. Like, let's stop pretending it's just nice to do. Let's start understanding. It's just smart to do right. The more people I can put in a room with different ideas, the smarter we all get. That's it. The more people I can draw upon. Like, your. Your childhood would have been extremely different than mine. To be able to talk about that, to be able to reason through that, to be able to sit down and come up with some solutions on the basis of different ways of life, that is powerful. And I, And I do believe we're going to go through a little bit here. We're going to go through a little bit. We're going to. We're going to be brought to the edge of that precipice for us to galvanize, to recognize, and to make all the changes that we need to make. But that just means all of our voices need to get stronger, louder.

[B]

Well, I love your optimism. I'm here for it. But I really do see some really dramatic tactics being done that have never been done before. That is way more threatening than I ever even imagined. Just with the control of media alone and by, you know, just servers and. And Google searches and, like, things being removed and, you know, that's. I've never seen that before. And you know, the whole thing about his. His supporters going, free speech, free speech. I'm like, wait, free speech means that there's going to be. There's going to be pushback on what you say. Like, when you go live with this podcast, there are going to be people that are going to write in and go, I wholeheartedly, with my full chest, absolutely disagree. This is bullshit and all that. That is. That is called engagement. That is called free speech. But when you remove the criticism, when you remove and you start to demonize, you know, institutional media, which to an extent, I get it, because they're all owned by these oligarchs and these wealthy people. But when. When. When it stops being that and you. That's. That's problematic. I've never seen it on this level in my lifetime. You know, I'm in my 50s. I've never seen this in my lifetime. The level, you know, you can't have one job and support a family anymore. And that is what so many boomers and people that are a little bit older than me or my age say about the young is like, they don't want to work hard or whatever. I'm like, well, on how about what was possible when my parents were alive and what was possible when I was. Like, for me, just in the acting industry alone, this is how much it's changed. The new generation of actors coming in, they're going to be on streamers, they're going to be on in this for this new format, which is called new media, which took place in 2007, 2008, in the stock market crash. So all of these studios, if you were on the bubble and you weren't already picked up, you were dropped, right? So now, now we have this strike. So we're like, no work for eons. People need to get back to work. So they create new media. So now we're gonna have video, right? So this isn't under the same contract. So we can just get people working again and food on the table for folks. Well, what happens then is the onset of, like, Netflix, who just in this most recent strike was saying, like, we're unfounded. It's been 20 years on the platform. What do you mean? You don't have the analytics? You don't know, you know, what you're giving up when you give artists this. We. I have noticed just since 2007, 2008, all of the, like, no residuals, and then they're like, well, we're giving you more money up front. My upfront money for, like, the Lying Game. And for when I did Surviving Evil, which was Discovery, which is alternative media, it's not even the same scope. It's not an actor or a TV show. It's not scripted television, so it doesn't necessarily fall into the same category, but, like, just the Lying Game alone. My last series, I think I ended up in 2013, 2012, so no residuals. Then they, like, we want to pay you upfront, you know, more to offset what you won't get later. And the more was half of my rate because they're Freeform or ABC Family. They're the redheaded stepchild of the network conglomerate. Right? It's not abc, it's ABC Family. So we're just a small, fledgling thing, and you're like, you know, you're. They're just getting smaller and smaller and smaller. People don't realize this. So just the economics of just my industry alone has changed. So. So that the. The what is the. The. What do you call it? The landscape. The landscape of this one industry has changed exponentially over time. So I grew up in the golden age. So these new kids that are on, like, I think Sweeney, what's her name? From Euphoria. Euphoria, the blonde. And she was in White Lotus, huge suit. She's like a superstar in feature films. Gorgeous, gorgeous girl. And she's like, yeah, I have to have multiple jobs because you think because I'm on TV that I'm making a boatload of money. But the reality is they're paying me more upfront. But I won't. Like, when she's my age, she won't see $1. Nothing's paying into her. Like, nothing pays into your pension. Nothing pays in. And then now they're in the habit of just removing a show off the platform entirely. So there's no residuals at all. So I grew up in a golden era. I am and was able to buy a house.

[A]

I.

[B]

You know. But this new generation of whatever industry you're in don't have the same advantages.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So is it that they're lazy and they don't want to work hard or they're pampered? Like, I'm sorry, did you live through a pandemic? I didn't.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's. I don't know, humanity. Everybody's comparing and shitting on each other.

[A]

I hate it. I think, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're gonna go back to optimism. I'm gonna fix it all. Don't worry. Don't worry. Now I feel like I need to hydrate, though. I'M like, when did the last time I had water?

[B]

I don't remember. I never. Anyway, this is unbelievable.

[A]

I have a coffee.

[B]

Got me on camera drinking water. Because I don't drink water.

[A]

You'll be like, wow. Two things. Number one, the flexibilization and casualization of your industry, I think is common in almost everyone. When people talk to me about problems.

[B]

Call me an elitist. I love it. It cracks me up. I'm more unemployed than I am employed. I am very familiar with unemployment and the cost of milk and eggs more than you realize. I know. Okay, it ain't like that for everybody.

[A]

Yes, yes. And what a crazy thing. Like, I know people, you know, I've gotten to know a lot of people in the industry, you know, whether it be soap operas, whether it be movies, whether it be other TV shows. And the interesting part is, is what ends up happening is a lot of the times you garner so much fame very, very quickly, which means you're going to have to have security, which means you're gonna have to have, like. And you're paying lots of different people from that paycheck that you get. And which. Which isn't even, you know, lifelong consistent.

[B]

Have you had this conversation with another actor?

[A]

Oh, God, yeah. Absolutely. And even the security alone, I've had conversations just about that. Like, just about the need. And you would have experienced this being on Buffy. There's no way, like, at the height of Buffy, you're gonna walk out your. Everybody's. Now everybody's going to know who you are. And there's this hyper need a little bit for security, this more for privacy, more for all of those things. And people think because you're famous, you're a kabillionaire. They associate the two.

[B]

It's really disheartening. It's like one of the. One of the things I wish I could change more than anything. And there's so much, like, shame around money, like, if you have it or don't have it. And I think people don't realize, like, you know, yes, I got residual. I'm one of the lucky ones. I got residuals for sure. Lucky I lost my healthcare in December. People don't realize that those residuals run out. They go increasingly less. Right. And because in 2007, 2008, the shoot shows that I was on when I was on, you know, I think a couple of seasons of the Lion Game, that would have sustained me right now if I got residuals for my new media project called Surviving Evil that was on Investigation, Discovery Channel, I Might would still be able to have my insurance. And you know the last time I did a broadcast television show was dynasty in 2023. So this is 2025. So like I don't know why people think that, you know. Yes, when you work you make a shit ton of money. And I have made a great deal of money. I don't mean to make it sound like I haven't been fortunate. I have however, I've spent more time unemployed than employed. And you have to budget for that. And when you're 29, you're thinking you're going to be rich your whole fucking life. Exactly.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

What 29 year old has financial literacy? We don't teach that in school which is so disgusting to me that that isn't like our, like we don't know how to do our taxes. We have to pay somebody to do our taxes. All have us have business managers of steel, you know, like I can't even tell you, you have whatever I did say say, let's just take it Hypothetical. You make 12, $20,000 for the month or a week, whatever it is that's on the lower end. So right off the bat Uncle Sam, because you're making X amount of dollars within a short amount of time. So you're going to pay the most in taxes. So 50% gone. Now you're down to 10,000. Then you have an agent, 10%. Then you have a manager. 10%. That is 70% of your income gone already. So now you're living on 30% growth or no, that's net. So then you have 30% of your income. Well, are you the breadwinner of your home? I was. I had a mortgage. Add two cars at a baby and you know, I'm working gazillion hours. So somebody was paying my bills. So they get a percentage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I did. I didn't say my business manager. My business manager gets 5%. So you're looking at 75% of your income and living off of 25% of your income. And I think the general, it's like such a disservice to think and then when you're making this money for 10 years, this high income amount of money and then you stop as you get older, especially if you're a woman, you work less and less and less you're having to project. Now I'm 54 now it's 27 years since the show was on. How many people do you know can budget or stocked money away? Yeah, how many people do you know that are still living off of the money that they made when they were in their 20s.

[A]

Yeah, none.

[B]

So, you know, it's just. It's just, it's a perception gap that I. There's a lot of shame around it, and I don't give a fuck. I will say it, you know, like, this is the reality. You know, I have made millions in my life more than anybody. You know, Obviously that's a 1%er, but that was a long time ago. That was a long time ago. I also got divorced. You know, they're just. Life is expensive. And Also, when you're 29, you're not smart. You. You think you're going to make money, so you're like, oh, I'm going to go to France for that for two weeks. Or, you know, when you're in the height of your show, you know, it was. It really was a golden era. You didn't think the whole economy was going to take a dump five years after your first child is born. Yeah. And you're living in California with the highest state taxes.

[A]

Right. So I think talking about that is essential.

[B]

Well.

[A]

You have to.

[B]

What I mean, I don't know what the reason. It's like, I just want people to understand that when I speak for the benefits of social program, I genuinely care also because I'm a part of that group. And I don't think people think of me as that. They think of me as just this elitist person. And then New York comes, like, do you still have money? It's like, gross. That's inappropriate and gross. It's like, I don't know. Do you. Can I see your checking account? Like, rude. That's just so disrespectful. It's like you don't get automatic access. If I want to volunteer what's going on with me, I'm happy to do it, but don't be rude and don't try to shame me or make me feel bad because I don't live on the top of Mulholland behind a golden gate like you think I do. And if I don't, then I've done something wrong along the way. It's not. It's just the realities of what it costs to do business as an actor.

[A]

And I think as a whole, I think if we had more people in more different elements of life, I think that the powers that be. I didn't use that on purpose, but that's kind of funny that I said that.

[B]

That was perfect.

[A]

That should be our, I don't know, the thumbnail, but the Powers that be really want us to be doing exactly what we're doing right here. They really do want us, I'm a teacher. To be thinking, oh, charisma has it so good. And she has this, and she has this. Either one of two things they want to see us throwing down about what you have as opposed to what I have. Or even better, they want me imagining that. This. If I. If I'm in this world, I can aspire to what you have. And that's always my goal as long as I stay within this same framework. What do you say? Rather than saying what really needs to be said. You don't know what.

[B]

Oh, break it down.

[A]

Either they're gonna pit you and I against one another. Right? Teacher versus celebrity versus actress. Right. Professional, you know, famous actress. They want to pit us against one another, especially for women. God, they love that. Or they want to create a scenario in which I just aspire to be you so I can get what you have. Both of those things. Both of those things are negating the real focus, which is how do we create sustainable economic relationships? How do we ensure that people are being paid equitably? Not equally necessarily, but equitably. How do we create a fully functional economic system in which we grow the middle class, we protect all walks of life that are actually playing into the system, and we figure out how to do that, that rationally and equitably. That's what they don't want us talking about.

[B]

Nobody wants anybody talking about financial literacy. They don't want you to read books. I mean, I. What's going on in my country in Florida, like, they're removing books. It's. It's unreal to me. It's like. And then it's like, free. The same party that's removing books is saying free speech. The same party that's saying that, you know, Elon, you know, who's co president, I guess he offering a million dollars to people who register to vote. But that's not. They're not gonna. They're not trying to tell you who to vote for, but, you know, I'm the party that's telling you, I'll give you a million dollars. Sure.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Nobody wants financial literacy because you can't control the population if they are educated. We don't want critical thinking. We don't want everybody to have a higher learning. Because if there's higher learning, we cannot keep them in their menial jobs, which makes us rich.

[A]

Can I tell you one other sad fact?

[B]

Because you Debbie Downers, I'm still saying.

[A]

There'S going to be a shift. Don't forget, that was the beginning of this conversation.

[B]

Where's my pitchfork? Let's go.

[A]

It's coming. Don't worry. I have three witches working in the back room. No, they're, they're. When you have that kind of focus on economics and you're saying they're taking away books, and I want to come back to that for a second because I. No matter what they do or try to do with social media, the Internet's going to win. And what I mean by that is I don't give a crap. You take Joe Biden off the Internet, search for presidents, or you switch up this stuff or you. The, the Internet is still a tidal wave that these men are going to do their best to control and manipulate. It is going to be a tsunami. They're not going to be able to stop it. Because I still believe that. When I started teaching and I had a textbook in my hand and there was no Internet, there was way more censorship, propaganda and control in that time than exists today. We just think that there was some.

[B]

Why are you saying that? Based on what? Why are you saying that? Based on this.

[A]

I think that. Well, I know. Well, when we went to school. Right. When I went to school, when we.

[B]

Sat in the classroom when we were in school than there is right now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, explain.

[A]

In order to teach a class, you needed a textbook. When I was a kid, did you not think that everything in that textbook was right?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Did you not?

[B]

Yeah, it was right. Like. Yes, that's the information, that's the source.

[A]

Sure. So you sat down for American history. Let's say whatever year you, you do American history every year, whatever you do, you sit down and somebody hands you a 400 page textbook on American history and you study it and you go over it and you memorize when the. What? Sure. And, and, and in that moment, your sole piece of education, your sole piece of information is a textbook and whoever was standing in front of you and a newspaper or, or a television station that was owned by a few key people, and that's all the information you got. The only way you're going to be.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. Just put a pin in that for a second. But the reality is that there was journalistic integrity then, so there were checks and balances and guardrails put into position in, in journalism at the time. You couldn't report something that wasn't factually true.

[A]

A lot of those things started with yellow journalism. Right. When you go right Back to Hertz and Pulitzer. You talk about yellow journalism and the. The idea that if it bleeds, it leads. You could have. I don't think people understand quite so. Okay, I'll come back to yellow journalism when I hand you that textbook. And I say this to my kids every year because I always give them a textbook. I don't even know why we do that anymore. I give them a textbook and I say, guys, we're doing American history, 1775. We're going to go all the way up to. Maybe we'll hit, you know, 2,000. And I'll say, what's the problem with this textbook? And they're like, well, it's written by the winners. I'm like, great. You know that line, Fantastic. It's written by the winners. So you already know that it's going to be biased. Right. And you already know maybe that it's not going to give when it talks about the Civil War. It's going to do it from a perspective that's cool. You know that. That's not the part I'm scared of because nowadays you can go on the Internet. Nowadays you can talk to somebody from Taiwan, you can talk to somebody from, you know, Ghana. You can talk to these people. You can get different pieces of information. I want to know what scares me is why is the textbook from 1775 to 2000 only 400 pages long? How much history do you really think is in that book? I'm not scared of what they say that's wrong. I'm scared of what they never talk about at all. When you were a kid, when you were in school, did you know anything about residential schools, reservations for indigenous peoples?

[B]

We studied that.

[A]

When you were in high school.

[B]

Yeah, we stopped. We. We talked about indigenous people and. And sure, you would have talked about it. History.

[A]

Sure. But in a very conceptual. I'll give you an example. In Canada, I mean, we had a.

[B]

Long time since I've been in high school, girl. But I'm just saying. Yeah, I remember studying that and I remember realizing, you know, but I also learned that Columbus discovered America. This is what I'm saying. Yeah.

[A]

So when I was in. When I was in high school and I was teaching learning, and then. And then even at the beginning of my teaching career, when we spoke about residential schools, which Canada had, which was forced boarding schools for indigenous peoples. Right. Where we stole their children.

[B]

This coming out in the news recently, where the. All the great mass graves were discovered.

[A]

Absolutely. And. And it. The only reason it came out and now is in the curriculum is because the indigenous population within Canada has fought for it, gone to court for it. But when I was in. When I was in school, nobody ever once, not one time, talked about a residential school. Not one time. Nobody even mentioned the word. And when I started teaching, residential schools were a little side note in a textbook that said, and we tried to help indigenous people by sending them to school and teaching them English. That was it. That was it. So my fear, and when I go further, when I go back like that, I'm not saying there's no censorship. I'm not saying there's no propaganda. I am saying we are more powerful with access to the Internet than we've ever been before. And I do think, even though they're.

[B]

Censoring our Internet now, though, here in.

[A]

The States, of course. But again, you can try to censor the Internet all you want. There are so many avenues for the Internet. Like people talk about, oh, they took my post down on Twitter. Listen, there are so many different avenues for you to gain information. I still argue that we are more educated, more aware, we can have better conversations than we've ever been at any moment in history. And when I go back to yellow journalism, and I think the stories that they put on news stations primarily were driven. If it bleeds, it leads.

[B]

I don't phrase. I've never heard that phrase.

[A]

If it bleeds, it leads. I think it's it. The idea is the more catastrophic a story, the more salacious, the more dangerous, the more people are going to want to buy the newspaper, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So the headline. Yeah. So you, you write headlines to draw people in. Well, you, you usually use a little bit of hyperbole. Usually you choose a story that might not be the best representation of the day, but it's going to sell your newspaper that day. That's always been the case.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That kind of capitalistic is. It's always been the motivator. What I'm saying. I'm not saying that people aren't trying to censor it nowadays. However, I am saying that the Internet and the advent of the Internet and this growing pain that we're going through right now is a better place for us to be in. Because 20 years ago, if you would have had an individual like we have right now, you couldn't even have had these discussions. He would have been able to. And as we've seen 50 years ago, he would have been able to roll through a lot more of those issues. Like when you ban books. Go ahead, ban a book from A high school student. Watch what they buy on the Internet. It's the quickest way to make them read.

[B]

I mean, I don't know, because there's Safari and Google and Firefox and what other search engines, you know what I mean? There's not a lot of search engines. And they are. And then the VPNs and stuff, there's, there are more ways of blocking and just when you buy flights, you know, like if your VPN is California, you're going to get my girlfriend on an Airbnb. We were looking at the same property and I'm like, oh, the Airbnb tells me it's this amount. The Airbnb tells you it's that amount. How interesting. Like, you know, there's just way, there's, there's ways of monetizing everything. It's exhausting.

[A]

The fact you and your friend can have that conversation, that's the power.

[B]

Well, we're observing it, but yes, it was an accident that we observed it, but that we were on the telephone. That wasn't some. But I wouldn't be able to have this conversation with somebody in Ghana. I don't speak, speak that language. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know. I, I don't know. I don't have the ideas. I don't know. All I know is it feels so scary and so wrong right now. And I feel it's more polarizing than ever. And I also am really disappointed in Democrats because I feel like we're a bunch of spineless facts. And I just, I just feel like change has gotta come. Change has gotta come. But it's gotta, it's got, it's gotta involve, you know, something more daring and more clever and more, you know, I mean, dare I say this, but maybe it's just as corrupt, you know, and people will say, people will say, well, you think the Democrats aren't corrupt? Of course, of course there's corruption on both ends. Of course. But this is a whole other level of stuff.

[A]

See, I think it, I think it just needs to be. I think the left needs to stop trying to be perfect in what they say and say what is right.

[B]

Well, the virtue signaling alienated a lot of people. Of course it did Became about niche issues. Yes. Rather than issues that really affected day to day American lives.

[A]

Absolutely. And that's the swing, right? That's where the swing comes from. But that's why this pendulum. And it feels horrible. It really does feel horrible. But sometimes things have to feel horrible for us to Recognize that we have to stand up, that we have to be authentic.

[B]

I'm worried nobody's gonna stand up.

[A]

You think nobody's.

[B]

I, I don't think I. We are at a point where, like, who's gonna stand up to him?

[A]

Like, aren't you right now?

[B]

No.

[A]

And what you're doing, the only thing.

[B]

We can do is during the midterms that are coming up, like in a couple years, like, we'll have midterms, but there's no heir apparent in the Democratic Party for 2028 that'll go up against J.D. vance. I don't, I don't know. You know, I don't know, short of a revolution. And what does that look like?

[A]

Listen, I think two things. Number one, elections aren't the only way that you evoke change. Number one. Number two, I don't think before Obama there was an heir apparent. And all of a sudden this individual rose in a time and in a space where we needed that person. And again, everybody will say, you know, oh, politicians aren't perfect. And he did. Yeah, I can talk about everybody's accolades and deficiencies. I can do that. But I believe, and I still think there already are those, those men and women in Congress right now. But I believe that one will rise. I think what we recognize right now is this politics and governance and the way that your community exists doesn't just happen from the top down. In fact, it happens more consistently from the bottom up. And if those 90 million people that chose not to vote all of a sudden are at their congressman's office, are at their senator's office, are in local schools, and if it's not going to be in local schools, cool. You know what I'm doing? I'm putting books right outside down the street of the local school. I'm going to put an RV there where I can, you know, sell books or I can give away books, I am going to create more. And I know this sounds frivolous as I'm sitting on a podcast, but it's not. 76% who watch long form podcasts went to the Republicans. Why? Because this is what we need to do. Because people like you, who are intelligent, authentic, and have something powerful to say, are going to get a podcast, are going to start having their voices heard. And just like we started at the beginning, I love it when a full circle moment happens. And I didn't even make it happen at the beginning of this. You spoke about how people, how you started doing something because you thought the community needed it and you started Serving a community in order to inspire, make them feel powerful and make them feel heard. That's it. And that's what more people on our side of the fence need to start doing. We have to get louder because I truly believe there's far more people in this world who are intelligent, empathetic and are driven by community and progress and good things than there are the opposite. We just need to learn how, how the real, how to divide and how to run through that power dynamic just like you are. Just like other people are that are starting to take up those kind of, those kind of avenues of power. That's where it exists. That's where it's always existed. Right? Be the change. That's why all of those incredible people start saying things like it starts with what you put into the world. And the more that amazing people put things into the world, the more that everything changes. The more that you talk about financial literacy and just put it out there, the more we let go of that any shame we have, the more that women stop, the more we other people.

[B]

Like there we go, other people. The less we realize how much more we have in common than we think.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

I mean that's really what I would hope to go is to kind of bridge that gap, you know, where I'm, I'm put on this pedestal where people think like I'm not relatable or my lifestyle isn't like, or you know, it's so othered than your own. Yes, I've had incredible experiences. I'm going to France next month. You know, I'm getting to travel the world and all of those things. And that is a lot more than, than most. But I'm also, you know, more like you than you would realize. You know, more concerned about my health care than you would realize. More concerned about my son growing up in a world like I hope we're still have a planet. More concerned about, you know, him getting the right education. What about my future daughter in law? What if she gets pregnant and then she has an ectopic pregnancy and then she can't get health care, the health care that she needs and she dies in a parking lot. Like this fucking kills me the idea that this is what's happening in our country and you know, and then my grandchild doesn't have any books. Thank God I saved all of my son's books. You know, like I have all these hardback books, children's books, you know, I'm sentimental. I care about our future, I care about our planet and I, you Know, I do. I'm just not that different. I just wish people would just realize that whatever my skin color is or whatever my, you know, sexual orientation is, or we're all just humans trying to be loved and feel loved and feel seen and feel heard and cared about. And, you know, I don't want price of drugs to go up. I don't want Medicare and Medicaid to go away. You know, the quality of life of my fellow Americans is important to me. You know, my brother has diabetes, my grandfather had diabetes. You know, I might develop it because my grandfather had it later in life. I don't have insurance right now. I have to Cobra out $1,200 a month where I used to pay. $545 a quarter for me and my son. And now because I lost my insurance, I have to cobra and I'll only have it for 18 months unless I get a job soon. You know, $1200 more a month I have to add to my budget that I wasn't planning on having to do because I didn't get another job. Why am I not grandfathered in? I was, I've. I've made so much money for this union. You know, there's just. My problems are your problems.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

My issues are your issues.

[A]

Yes, but, but nobody can understand that unless you're willing to do exactly what you're doing, which again, is just so incredible. Unless you're willing to put it on blast. Unless you're willing to take power over something like this kind of medium, which is powerful. And the more you do that and the more we can all raise concerns and lower fear. I mean, those are two things we have to do and we have to do carefully. You need to raise concern, let's say about unionization, job security, health care, raise concern. But we don't, we don't want to raise fear because when people are panicked, they do dumb stuff. So we want to raise concern, but empower them enough to understand you don't have to fear it because here's how you can take control. That is everything.

[B]

Well, we need thought leaders to talk about solutions. I think there is less fear when there's an actual solution. So it's not enough to pose the problem. It's got to be, what is the solution? You know, what is the answer? So often in my DMs, it's like, well, why don't you run for office? Why don't you run for office? Mainly because I feel that when you're an actor, you're. You're not going to be taken seriously. You're not going to be listened to really. And I think also there are people with genuine knowledge in these areas that have, you know, a four year degree. I don't have a four year degree. I didn't graduate from college. You know and I think that it's not enough to care about people. You have to have actual solutions and be a thought leader in what we can do differently and give an option where you feel like people that didn't vote, the 90 million that didn't. There was no other option. There's nobody representing me. There's nobody that speaks to me on my values and also my wallet. Like two things are, that's the other thing about Americans. Like well it's not enough that he's a bad person because he's going to help my wallet. Like I'm really curious how is he helping the wallet?

[A]

Well, he's not. If you make under $330,000 a year, your taxes are going up.

[B]

I don't think that's what's happening. I don't, I don't know what happened there. I, I think there. And it's really at a point where you are so sold on, you know, hook, line and sinker on this person that it's just, I mean I watch the videos. It's, it's just, just, it's tribal, it's, it's culty, it's, it's, it's to a point where there's no return. You're not going to under. You're. Those people are gone. Like you're never going to change. You cannot change people's minds. I really, I really, I understand that more than ever. And I've spent so much time trying to change people's minds. Even today when I'm having a disagreement with my son, I want to change his mind. Changing people's mind. Just speak the truth. And yes, I just, just, I don't know, I don't, I think it's, it's truly about the 90 million that didn't vote. Like giving information. Yeah then.

[A]

And I don't, I want to say this before because I know that our time is running out. I want to say this. The idea that you, I don't know what you think you get a four year degree in that are of all of a sudden makes you more worthy and more intelligent in, to be able to sit in a, in a congressman seat or a senator seat but I'm telling you there's no such education. And I love school. Don't get me wrong, I'd stay in school forever. I think education is important. I do not think at all that a four year degree in anything makes you a powerful thought leader. I think what makes people powerful thought leaders is the ability to listen, the ability to synthesize, the ability to give a crap. Those are the three things. Because charisma. Just because you're not sitting in a, in a third year poli sci class doesn't mean you wouldn't be the kind of person to surround yourself by some of the most intelligent people in whatever discipline you need to learn about. You listen to them, you figure it out with them. Because the notion that one person has a solution is perhaps the failing of the political system.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't exist. It's very seductive to you are the answer. You have the solution. You know, in therapy, going to your therapist and, and you know, I remember having that conversation with my, he was actually a psychiatrist back, back in the day. He was just like, you know, he, he bucked up against the system, you know, in that field because a bunch of therapists get together as psych. Psychiatrists believe their own, you know, their.

[A]

Own story, their own, their own lore.

[B]

You know, they, they believe their own horseshit. Yes. Like, oh, I'm educated and I know all the things. And you know, this prescription is going to do this. Like, we don't know anything about the brain. My doctor would sit there and just go, we know so little about how the brain works. You really do. If it works for you, great. But it may not work for you. You know, there's just, there was so much authenticity about him that I loved. But I think that's, that's part of the thing is that with the political. I don't have the answer. I'm not the all be omniscient one. I am not the powers that be.

[A]

You know, nobody is.

[B]

I want to find a solution that works for a majority of us as soon as possible. What can we do today to make our lives just a little better, a little easier, a little gentler, a little, you know, like, what's the viscous, what's the, what's the lubricant of the joints? Because we are freaking up against bone here.

[A]

I have a bad shoulder, right, to speak to that. Actually, it's perimenopause. It's all right, listen, I want, I, I want to end with a very.

[B]

Important run for office.

[A]

Yes. Courtney, I'm trying to tell you if, if you are driven by it, if, if you people tell me to do the same thing. My problem in this particular country is I don't. I don't. I think my level of authenticity might not. It's just too hard to swallow everybody. I think it's just a little too. Because at the end of the day, the. The honest answer is it's going to be hard. Your life has to change and we have to do it collectively. Are you ready for that truth? Or would you rather believe that one person is going to manipulate everything else to make your life perfect as it was in 1987? Because if you're willing to buy that. I can't. I can't have this conversation.

[B]

My. Not my biological mom, but I call her my mama son. She said something really important to me. I spend a lot of time reading. I read a lot of articles. I don't have children, small children in school. I'm not working a 9 to 5 job. I don't have a husband's needs or, you know, house domestic needs. People are fucking busy. They don't have time, you know, and that or bandwidth to really do anything or care. It's just like. That really struck me because I would say, like my little nieces, you know, they live in Indiana. That's horrifying to me. And their parents voted for a president that then is. And they're religious too. So, you know, there's lots of. I do believe that a majority of Americans believe in the right to choose, and they do believe in body autonomy. And I do believe that if. I personally believe. If you don't have ownership over your own physical being, how can you have ownership of something outside of yourself, like a gun?

[A]

You can't.

[B]

How can you say my first amendment right or my second amendment right? My second amendment right is right to bear army arms.

[A]

Right?

[B]

What about my right to my body? Yeah, wait, your right to a gun supersedes my right to my body? If you as a man could procreate, would you feel the same? How would that change or be different for you? You know, it's just. You do have to. I have to think about like, people don't have the energy, the time or the bandwidth to read and get involved. They just want someone as close to their value system as possible and pin all their hopes and dreams on that person and then that's it. They get maybe this much news media time and it's usually from the one source that is echoed to them over and over again based on our media and. And the way Facebook and all the meta programs and acts. It's an Echo chamber. It's like you're constantly going to be fed the things that you gravitate towards because it helps them monetize you. We're the product.

[A]

We are the product.

[B]

But that we.

[A]

We. We, as in you and I, have to be louder. We have to. Whatever bandwidth we can afford to give, we have to give. And we have to use our level of either privilege or passion or authenticity for the issue in order to raise all boats, dare I say slayers, every one of us. Look, I can't help it. I just. It. It's perfect. It's the idea. It's the idea that it is going to be driven. It has to be driven by women right now. It has to be. Now's the time to see that type of emotional awareness and empathy and bodily. It's not going to come from the other side of the fence. So now it's time to do every single thing in your power. And it might not be running for office. It might be a podcast. It might be DMS to people. It might be all of these things. But what I promise you is that we have more power than we could possibly think of. And as soon as we understand how to share that power, how not to be the only one. Yeah, we'll be a tidal wave.

[B]

You're on to something there. Because I do think they want to overwhelm us so much that we do feel disenfranchised and separate from our own power. I think that is an absolute strategy and tactic that has been very successful over time, always has been. I don't disagree with that. And, you know, I. I don't know what that translates to right at this very moment. For me, personally, I don't know. I just mainly want to be a light in the world. I want to offer, you know, I want to be an offer that to people, because I guess that's what Buffy did do and provide for so many for all those years. And why it is still so, you know, popular is because people do feel seen and heard by the show and the themes that were in the show, and they learn things through storytelling that, you know, that's one of the greatest things as an actor, you know, is you're creating, you know, characters that then you are like the writers are creating thoughts around controversial issues, but tell the story around the controversial view in a way that you don't feel browbeaten and you don't feel like you're being judged for thinking the way that you do. But it's just a way and to go, huh? I didn't ever think of it like that. That's it, you know, those are. That's when I think that's how change really does happen too, is like we all tap into what our natural abilities are in storytelling, whether you're a writer or you're an actor or whatever, is that you gravitate and tell those stories that do tend to enlighten without being heavy handed, without making you feel guilty, without virtuous, virtuous signaling, signaling without like shame and all that stuff. It's like, it's tempting to just be like, what the fuck? Why did you vote for him? Like, what's wrong with you, you fucking idiot? Didn't you see the right animal? Like, it's so tempting, but we got to harness it.

[A]

And that's why. And I'll end on this and with you hydrating because it's really important, guys. Stay hydrated. That's why all revolutions, and I don't mean this violently, I don't mean this in any way, shape or form, because you can talk about the Enlightenment, you can talk about the Renaissance. All revolutions begin with brilliant artists telling a story, whether it's through music, literature, or physical pieces of art. That's where it starts. And you can look at peace after revolution, after revolution in all parts of the world. And the things that have withstood the test of time and actually still stand up as these incredible moments of the transition of power are the arts. And so you start with storytelling and you start with exactly your reason, because it doesn't feel like it's brow beating. But all of a sudden you're sitting at home and you think, that gave me what I needed today, to do something better, to do something bigger, to do something outside of myself, whether it be a concert, whether it be a book you read, and whether it be a television show you've watched for the 700th time. That's where power comes from.

[B]

Yeah. I have one question before we go.

[A]

I love it. Why can we do part two? That was my.

[B]

I think we did part one and two already.

[A]

Charisma.

[B]

Okay, what does unlearn 16 mean? Why?

[A]

Unlearn is very Socratic. So Socrates, when he taught, he always believed that before you can learn something, you have to unlearn the prejudice, the stereotypes, and the crap that has been shoved in your head without your consent. You have to unlearn all of that. You have to strip it down, you have to have those conversations and you have to do it consistently in order to make space for actual learning, in order to make space for Progress. And the 16. That's my volleyball number. Nothing more there.

[B]

I failed volleyball in college. Like, the one semester I went. I failed volleyball. I couldn't do an overhand serve. I failed.

[A]

You know what? Pause, pause. This is going to be part two. We're gonna. I'm gonna come to New York. We're gonna find a gym, no car.

[B]

Right here in the park.

[A]

That's it. And I'm gonna teach you how to serve. I'll fix the perimenopause shoulder before I come down.

[B]

Let's do that.

[A]

That'll be the start.

[B]

Let's do it. All right.

[A]

Thank you so much. This has been an amazing two hours.

[B]

I hope listeners enjoyed it. Oh, my God.

[A]

Listen. They're gonna love it. Are you kidding me? This is it. Why?

[B]

This is political, you know?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Also, people don't tune in to listen to me talk about politics. They want to hear tea. You know, they're like, can't you just shut up and dribble? You know?

[A]

But I disagree.

[B]

It may be different. We'll see.

[A]

I disagree. I think people, the feedback are. Are dying. I think our people are. Are starved for authenticity. And by people they already feel a connection to, they want to hear more of what you have to think and more of what you have to say and more of how you expand that to the universe. And I think the things you've said are so powerful and so easy to connect to the average person. I think you underestimate how much power you actually have in that realm. All right, but on that note, I'll talk her into more. Just so everybody knows I'm talking, you know, at least the serving session.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Thank you so much for spending this time with us. And please tell me when you get lunch with Cynthia. And on that note, guys, thank you for hanging out with us, and I will see you next week. Same bat time, same bat channel. Dismissed.