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- [00:03]
A
Classes in session. Hey, everybody. I'm gonna say that again because I think I wasn't rolling. Hey, everybody, and welcome to Unlearn 16 classes in session. Today I have with me Fancy. Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, that's a nickname. Absolutely not. A nickname. No, that's your last name. It is. Now, most people are like, what are you doing on Joanna's podcast? And part of me wants to just chat to you for an hour without actually telling them who you are. But maybe we shouldn't do that. People. Comfy?
- [00:33]
B
Oh, okay.
- [00:34]
A
So. So tell the people. We just did an incredible photo shoot, so I'm gonna let you describe who you are. That's the teaser. Who you are, what you do and why you do it, and the meaning of life. Just put that.
- [00:49]
B
What do I do? I'm a photographer, commercial photographer. I've been doing it for almost 17 years now, which I didn't realize it was that long until I looked at my LinkedIn the other day and I was like, I own a LinkedIn.
- [01:00]
A
And then I LinkedIn do you know, almost got taken by LinkedIn.
- [01:02]
B
What do you mean?
- [01:03]
A
Side note, I got an email saying you have to do something on your LinkedIn account. I'm like, I have a LinkedIn account. And then I spent like half hour trying to log back in.
- [01:12]
B
No.
- [01:13]
A
And I'm like, oh, Dan. They were trying to LinkedIn. It was a fishing. I never. The funny part is I'm so technologically stupid, they couldn't even hack me. Not because I didn't try hard.
- [01:27]
B
Just because you didn't know how to enter your password.
- [01:31]
A
Well, that's what you get.
- [01:33]
B
Yeah, that's what you get. The Internet is a scary place now.
- [01:36]
A
17 years. So what made you jump into photography?
- [01:40]
B
I think so. Okay, so I'm from a small town and French is the type of school. I'm from Moncton, New Brunswick.
- [01:48]
A
Moncton, New Brunswick.
- [01:50]
B
Maritimes. And we had a fairly large French school. We only had one French school in our area, and so we had very large classrooms. And so I didn't feel like there was enough focus on a teacher to student basis, so I kind of just.
- [02:06]
A
So how many kids were in your class?
- [02:08]
B
Like, 35.
- [02:09]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so I had to pass by 55 points. So if my grade was 55, I was happy.
- [02:14]
A
Right.
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B
So I didn't feel very motivated. So I was more sticking to the arts because that's subjective and the better you get at it in your own way, you build a look and then people Just either fall in love with it or they don't.
- [02:27]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:28]
B
It's not math, it's not science, it's not physics. You're not doing heart surgery. So I think that's how I knew that sports or arts was going to be my direction. So I went to a school and then played a lot of competitive soccer when I grew up and ended up getting recruited. And I moved to the States for school. So I was already in grade 10 back home.
- [02:51]
A
You got recruited in grade 10?
- [02:52]
B
I got recruited. I was 14.
- [02:54]
A
What are these US people sneaking up here, taking on all our athletes? That's what I want to know.
- [02:59]
B
We did a really incredible tournament. It was called the Schwann cup in Manitoba. And we were playing against teams from all over the world.
- [03:04]
A
Oh, so you guys play it on and then invite people?
- [03:07]
B
Yeah. So I think in Manitoba, like, I think we were playing against, like, Ireland and Colombia. Brazil. It was a pretty incredible tournament. So I think for that, if you're a US Coach, just drive down the border. The border and just pick your players.
- [03:22]
A
Steal our people. See how it is.
- [03:25]
B
So I went there and then I got into a class of 12. So then I started to care more about my education. I started to care more about what I wanted to do with my future. I actually gave a shit about what my future looked like, but I still wanted to be in the arts because it just was so easy to me. So I picked up a camera there too. And they had a dark room program, so I did a grade 10 again there. So because French is my first language, and when I was going to an English school, they just said, can you do grade 10 again? You'll learn everything that you've already learned. But then you're going to do it.
- [03:55]
A
Ohio. United States School. You just wanted her there longer or.
- [03:59]
B
They just wanted me to pay more. Yeah. You get a ride where you still pay a percentage.
- [04:06]
A
We're gonna have to. You're gonna have to do a grade 10 again just for your own good.
- [04:09]
B
Yeah.
- [04:09]
A
Yeah.
- [04:10]
B
So I did bio again. I did great in bio. I did great in math. Things that don't need a language. But you know what's really interesting, too? And you'll find this really bad and sad history in the States has nothing to do with anything outside of the border. Sure.
- [04:25]
A
So outside of the state border.
- [04:27]
B
Outside of the country's border.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:30]
B
So like, I went from grade nine and grade ten learning about the fur trade. Yeah.
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A
War of 1812.
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B
Yeah. Learning about Germany. Learning about what other countries have learning about our ecosystem, learning about, you know, forestry. Learning about how different things come from different places. And then you go to the States and your history is name the 52 presidents.
- [04:53]
A
So important to name people. And then it was like, I'm gonna put that in the curriculum. Yeah.
- [04:59]
B
And then it was, who does it?
- [05:01]
A
Well, the Looney Tunes, the Animaniacs. Have you ever heard the version of the Animaniacs who name off the presidents?
- [05:06]
B
No. Please send me the link.
- [05:09]
A
Oh, my God, I'll send you. If I was technologically capable, I'd throw it in the middle of this, but I'm not. You guys can all find it on your own.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah. So then, anyway, long story short, I started doing really well in school. I was, you know, more one on one with a teacher and technology was a bigger thing. So think about like 19 years ago. 2005 is when I started school. That was when you got the first MacBook that was 2 inches and the battery came apart. You could just pop it underneath it. And so our school was computer based. So then I was really into technology. So, like, picking up something as simple as Adobe Photoshop at the time was super easy for me. So having a camera, doing a little thing. A little bit. Yeah. So then I became really good at something and I was like, I think I'm going to stick with it. So I was getting offers to continue playing in the States after school for college. And then I just decided Humber College was recruiting me for soccer and I just wanted to go back home. A. I didn't want to be stuck in this system of the. Not knowing what my visas look like. Oh, yeah. And, you know, health insurance here in Canada is, you know, a little easier. You got a no hip card, you go to the ambulance, you take an ambulance, you go to the hospital. They don't ask questions, they talk about it.
- [06:27]
A
So you just didn't see your future life in the United States. And if you're going to make a transition, do it in university or college rather than post.
- [06:34]
B
I mean. Yeah. And then I also just felt like I got the education and I did get the things that I wanted to learn and that was great. But I just also kind of, in a cheesy way, wanted to go back to my roots.
- [06:45]
A
Sure.
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B
Like, I just wanted to be closer to my parents. I wanted to have access to the things that were important to me, like the healthcare system and.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I just chose to stay. And not gonna lie, I'm pretty happy I did.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
Came back home.
- [06:59]
A
That's crazy. What? And I didn't even know. Just so you guys know, this is the first week we. We've spent two photo shoots together now, so this is the first time I'm hearing this story. But I think it's fascinating that you come on. Came on here and all of a sudden are talking about how you had 35 kids in a class and then putting it down to 12. All of a sudden you recognized because you were just as smart at 35 kids. You were just as capable, you were just as intelligent. All the potential was there, and you never would have seen that had you not been afforded the opportunity to be in a smaller class size. So it. You know, a lot of the things I talk about when it comes to education is simply class size. It's not public, ver private. It's simply class size.
- [07:40]
B
I agree. And do you think. Because, I mean, you. You'll probably have a better perspective on this, but maybe also I was more motivated to do better because I was not just a number.
- [07:51]
A
You were invisible. A hundred percent.
- [07:53]
B
So I would go into class, they'd know me by my name. They'd say, great game last night. Of course, they'd talk about the weaknesses I had in a certain program.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah.
- [08:03]
B
And they always kind of cared on how to make it better. I feel like what I remember from being back home in a class with so many students is I always sat kind of in the middle. I didn't want to be, like, in the back and ask and participate. I didn't want to be in the front.
- [08:17]
A
Yeah.
- [08:18]
B
But I always remember that, like, once class was kind of ending and there's 20 more minutes, they'd say, okay, you can start your homework. Well, we're starting our homework. And teachers just sitting in the front coloring on a piece of paper or something. And like, we do like to cuddle. I mean, yeah. But I'm just going to rush through my homework so that I can go home and build some Legos. You know what I mean? So I was doing anything.
- [08:40]
A
No, I think that's incredibly important. I think, and I talk about this a lot, is that when it's a smaller class size, it really. It's not just about how well do you learn math or history or what the skill sets. It's feeling valued as a freaking human being. Kids need to feel valued. They need to. They need to feel seen. They need to feel like they're real people. This isn't rocket science. Of course they do. And when they have 35 people in the classroom now, you're you're sort of describing a little bit more of, let's say a teacher's like, okay, whatever, I don't care. But there are teachers who really try with the 35 kids, but you're still not getting that job. Too many kids. And what ends up happening is the kids that require, like you said, I sit in the middle. You probably weren't a problem. You did your homework, nobody's ever worrying. But you're not failing. Right. And you're also not like punching a kid or throwing a chair. So the dichotomy of the kids that get all the attention, you're just sitting in the middle.
- [09:30]
B
That's interesting.
- [09:32]
A
And so nobody's ever going to worry about you. You're not going to get extra attention because you don't need it to calm your whatever disruptive nature. And you're not failing the class. We don't have to worry about you there. And that's why I think, you know, obviously private. I work in private education, but I am a very much a public school proponent. The reality is the kids that get missed in the public system are exactly who you were. The kids that don't cause any trouble, the kids that do well enough to get by and pass, the kids that were the parents aren't saying why aren't you? Why aren't you? Right. Aren't on the teacher's, you know, email all the time. Those are the kids that, whatever it is, they get and, and forget the marks. However they feel about themselves walking into the world after that. That's it. Yeah. And what a. We want to talk about lost future generations. That's the problem. It's not the 75 in the MA in math. How does that kid feel stepping out into the world? Do they feel like they can accomplish anything? Do they feel empowered? Do they feel capable? Because if they don't, that's when you go down some pretty, you know, some, some bad roads. That's when you start talking about mental health. That's when you start talking about things like possible, you know, even worse things like addiction or worse things like never finding the right job because you never feel like you're good at anything. And we're never given the opportunity. Right?
- [10:51]
B
Yeah. That's so interesting.
- [10:53]
A
17 years you've been a photographer. What's the hardest part?
- [10:57]
B
Running a business in this economy right now?
- [11:00]
A
Finding gigs?
- [11:02]
B
No, what is the hardest?
- [11:04]
A
What's the name of your company?
- [11:05]
B
Ripple Media Group. Rebel Ripple.
- [11:07]
A
Ripple.
- [11:08]
B
Ripple effect.
- [11:09]
A
Ripple effect.
- [11:10]
B
There you go.
- [11:10]
A
I love it.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah. And then ripple effect.
- [11:13]
A
I was gonna say rebel. There's that horrible right wing.
- [11:16]
B
We're not rebellious people.
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A
Ripple.
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B
The ripple effect.
- [11:19]
A
Yeah.
- [11:20]
B
So, you know, one thing goes to another and progresses there.
- [11:24]
A
So that's pretty much my book, but continue. Yep.
- [11:26]
B
Yeah, there you go.
- [11:27]
A
Shot the COVID of my book just right now. And that's pretty much what the book is about.
- [11:32]
B
There you go.
- [11:32]
A
Boil it down.
- [11:35]
B
And yeah, I've been doing it for so long. The beginning of my career was so interesting because my portfolio in university was all sports based. Because it was easy.
- [11:45]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [11:46]
B
I spent so much time in the physio rooms and working with the varsity athletes and stuff that it was really easy to, like, shoot an athlete on a background, but make it cool. Okay. Bring in a ball, pose this way, do this or whatever.
- [11:59]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then when I got right out of college, I found a studio that was looking for an assistant and kind of like an internal person for doing some Photoshop and some editing and stuff. And their company was the head MLSE Photographers. So Blue Jays.
- [12:15]
A
Oh, wow.
- [12:19]
B
Raptors. So we spent the majority of our time on the courts and in the fields shooting the athletes for, who knows, either game wise sports action shots, or it was interviews or special appearances and stuff like that. And it was like, you know, right out of college, I was working with professional athletes, so I got a lot of exposure working with very celebrity status people, which was, to me, just another day at work. But I think that it's also helped me be so comfortable even to this day, being able to deal with people of higher status, where I'm just kind of like just another person, like, we're cool. And then there's like less pressure on me and there's less, like, changes the.
- [13:01]
A
Dynamic of the room.
- [13:02]
B
For sure it does. And I think that the conversations you can have with that person too. Doesn't feel so stiff where you're like, sir, ma'am, can you tilt this way? I'm just like, hey, how's it going?
- [13:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [13:12]
B
What's your name? Go. Like, I mean, like, I don't try to name drop, but this was a fun experience.
- [13:17]
A
But I want to hear it. Yes, Go.
- [13:18]
B
So I did a photo shoot with Gordon Ramsay.
- [13:20]
A
Oh, nice. Did he yell at you? No, get out of my kitchen.
- [13:24]
B
He yelled after, though, at the event, so it was great. I was like, thank you so much for not doing that to me. But when I met him for the first seconds, and I'm like, hey, Gordon. Mr. Ramsay, Chef, what do you prefer? And he was like, just call me Gordon. I was like, fantastic. So we went right into our shoot, and it kind of, like, was just like we were friends. So I think that the interesting thing about that is that those kind of photo shoots, when you're dealing with people who you literally watch on TV and idolize, it's cool to bring the memories that'll last forever. And, you know, for me, but being able to deal with him the way that I did, I also can feel that he was very comfortable and trustworthy of the things that I was delivering. So I think that came from past experiences dealing with. Under pressure of larger status people. So I've been very fortunate in that sense. But I feel like there comes to an extent where this whole working with status people can only be so fun.
- [14:19]
A
Yeah.
- [14:20]
B
It becomes, you know, political. Who gets to do this and that and how we're going to shoot it and, you know, what way we want to do it. And then I find that I meet people who just want to be very creative. And it helps for me because when you do very technical things, you're very much in a box. And it's like, do this this way, because this is how it needs to look. And then we get to work like we did today. Just stack a bunch of things on the floor, don't tell them things, and then, you know, pose different ways, make it look fun. Yeah, I think that that's kind of where, throughout the years, I've had fun following the rules, but now I kind of want to bend that a little bit and try to be more creative again. Because I think that after a couple years, just like you with teaching, you know, when you're reading a syllabus or you're following a curriculum, there comes a point where you're like, how do we still have the same information, but how do we make it more interesting? Yeah, because I don't think what we were taught 10, 20, 15 years ago that we would have registered the same information the same way as we do now.
- [15:19]
A
Absolutely not.
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B
So I think that if you can teach things in a more interesting way now, then people are willing to learn quicker or easier, too.
- [15:27]
A
I feel like it's so funny. So as we were doing all this, I was talking about bringing in fancy in order to do stuff with my students, do some extracurricular. Because this is a school that's very much based on how the arts sort of influence everyday life and how no matter what course you're taking, you should. There's an element of an artistic person in everybody. So we are in there, and you guys Are like the F stop and the Q rating and the whatever and the. And I'm like, what language are you speaking in? And Rose, like, well, this is the physics. I know. I'm like, physics, but the way light bounces. But that's the funny. So. So what I think would be really cool, and I'm coming up with this as we sit here. I would love to have you guys back in. I would love to. About the physics of photography. Okay, so what are we going to use? That's a whole lesson. So all the kids that just do physics and think, well, that's all I'm going to do. No, no, no, no, no. Here's the application in a real way. You can have artistic students. You can have students who want to understand sort of the, the artistic level of composition, or the kids that are really good at the edit or editing and the computer based, all of these aspects. And then you start talking about the cool parts about photography that I love, which are how do you get at the truth of something? Right.
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B
Storytelling.
- [16:45]
A
Yes. You know, you talk about huge photographers, and one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard is you're not looking for a particular shot or an angle. It's not about it being pretty. And it's the greatest line. I think I might have got this from House, but then I looked it up. I think Annie Lebow had said it, but it's not about getting the prettiest shot. It's about getting the truest, truest shot. The shot that's that person.
- [17:12]
B
Yeah.
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A
And that's not about it being perfect. That's not about not having a shadow here or, you know, photoshopping away all of our wrinkles. It's about getting to some sort of authenticity, which for me and what I do, you know, I talk all the time about my students finding who they are, about me finding out who and how you express that, how you live that. But photography, we've kind of broken it a little bit in our world. Right. Like, we have a filter on this or we adjust. We don't really like. I don't really like how fat my thigh is. We're just gonna narrow it a little bit. So we're always changing who we are because we have the ability to make ourselves look prettier, but we're not necessarily looking true. But I think there's such a cool philosophical, you know, element there.
- [17:57]
B
I. I think, though, that things like Facetune and all these apps where it allows people to literally change exactly who they are, has worked against Us?
- [18:07]
A
Yes.
- [18:07]
B
I think we've. When. When, you know, 40 years ago, when digital really wasn't a thing, it was all film. So you get what you. You look at. Yeah. And so I think it's always funny, too, and this is kind of off topic, but it's full circle of how people perceive themselves now and the whole beauty of everything and wanting to put filters on their faces. It's also like what was way back on TV hosts and everything. What was beautiful was beautiful then that was natural. And then we forget that, like, that's a possibility. Like. Like, for instance, take Pamela Anderson during Baywatch.
- [18:47]
A
Right.
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B
Total bombshell. But that was Pamela with her blonde hair just going through the wind. And it just is what it was. And the photos were what they were. And now everyone thinks that what beauty involves in is like the lip fillers, the. Everything changing. And it's. Okay. Change a few things. I'm not against anything that, like, a woman wants to do to feel better or a man to feel more confident, but I think that we're. We're just so stuck in this world of you can do anything to your face in a photo.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah.
- [19:16]
B
That. That we think perfect is something that doesn't exist. And so we go and change ourselves to look.
- [19:23]
A
Yeah.
- [19:24]
B
Prettier.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah.
- [19:25]
B
Meanwhile, I don't know that I agree with all of it.
- [19:28]
A
We just spend so much time, you know, and it's also obviously a little bit of a competition, too. Right. It's a competition between how does my picture look against how does somebody else else's picture look. Yeah. And that's true across the board for everything. Everybody's so terrified of making a mistake or not looking perfect in. In a. In a physical or an emotional, intellectual way.
- [19:54]
B
In so many ways.
- [19:55]
A
Right.
- [19:56]
B
We're all like, well, we want to put on our right face in public.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah. We want to drive the next day. Perfect. It.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah.
- [20:01]
A
Let's go ahead and do. And then we get lost in that because then, you know, the, The. The fun and the authenticity just evaporates. Which. Which I would say when you start thinking about celebrity in a significant way, and, you know, a lot of my students would be like, well, it's such a good life. I'm like, listen, I think they are now on, like, if you're going to be famous for whatever reason, you're now under the camera and under that lens.
- [20:32]
B
You'Re under scrutiny constantly, and you're consistently not able to be yourself. Never. You do one weird thing or you do just yourself, and the media just puts it into a terrible eye. I mean, like, you can speak more to this than I do. I have like 7,000 followers on Instagram, and you have a substantially large amount. And, you know, you have your opinion on social as well. So you're getting a lot of people giving you their two cents.
- [20:57]
A
Oh, sure. Yeah.
- [20:58]
B
There's never, like, just let the person be the person. There's always someone who wants to change something or tell you their own opinion.
- [21:05]
A
I'll tell you what is funny about it, because I get recognized a little bit. And so I've become starkly aware. Like, not too long ago, I was in Walmart with my mom.
- [21:13]
B
Yeah.
- [21:14]
A
And whatever. We were annoyed with each other.
- [21:18]
B
Okay.
- [21:19]
A
And she said something and I'm like, mom. And I. And I sort of snapped back out. If she snapped at me, I snapped. And all of a sudden. As in, like, nobody was screaming, nobody was doing anything stupid. But, you know, it's not necessarily. You don't want to be. How about you not do that in public? But again, who do I. Who's watching me? Yeah, well, now there's a lot of people watching me. So I hear unlearn 16. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no.
- [21:45]
B
I love my mom. I love my mom. I swear, I love my mom.
- [21:48]
A
Exactly. And my mom and I laughed about that because we're like, well, at least people know who we really are. And I'm like, but then you become. Then you're very much aware. Now, I do think there's a Cool. Some people are like, yeah, well, then you don't act the way you should. You know, you're not being authentic.
- [22:06]
B
That's not fair.
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A
It's not fair. But I also think I also am a tiny proponent of when we think we're being well watched. We. We're better humans. Maybe we think twice. Because I don't think I should have been an ass to my mom in Walmart. Let's be honest. Right? Like, what am I doing?
- [22:24]
B
Okay.
- [22:24]
A
And so. So having this. This focus. Sometimes I think when people are like, who cares who's what? It doesn't matter what anybody thinks. I think there's a balance because I think it does matter how you act and. And run in this world. And if you're telling me you wouldn't have been that person had a camera been pointed at you, maybe you shouldn't be that freaking person.
- [22:46]
B
Yeah.
- [22:47]
A
So there's an interesting balance there.
- [22:49]
B
No, I definitely agree. And I think that everyone. It's. It's not even a thing of image. I think it's just a thing of manners. Most people don't argue in public because they don't want to be rude in public. But. But again, like, the one time you're off and someone catches you, and you're like, oh, well, here we go.
- [23:05]
A
That lady knows who she is.
- [23:07]
B
She's like, she thinks I'm a young.
- [23:09]
A
Mom all the time. My mom yelled at me just as much as I yell.
- [23:12]
B
You're like, you missed the first part. You heard, I'm sorry, but you missed the first 20 minutes.
- [23:16]
A
She's just as bad.
- [23:18]
B
You're like, this all started in the car.
- [23:20]
A
This was her. This is the eighth Walmart. I'm in it. Yeah, we have to get the right bread. Whatever we were fighting about, but I think it's really cool to talk about. And. And I think this. It could be a whole course in itself. How do you get to the truth of an image? How do you get to the truth of a person? And there is something. You know, we were joking while you're photographing me, and. And Roe was like, okay, so smile. I'm like, oh, this isn't gonna go good. And then I have, like, flashes of, like, Chandler, you know, from Friends, when he smiles, he's like, yeah. And I'm like, but that's so funny. I'm like, you guys are gonna have to be funny. And because for me, if I. And that's why I just started there some point where I just tell her, okay, tell us the story about whatever. Because then I feel natural, and then I'm doing that. Yeah, but how do you try to find that with people? Or have you felt like you've been speaking about that box? Especially with celebrities, you've been so constricted. It's like, no, this is the product shot. Or this is. Don't get her bad side. Make sure.
- [24:21]
B
So there's, like, conversations as a professional, too, that you go into at the beginning, and you kind of get your ground. So it's like, do you have a certain angle? Do you prefer.
- [24:29]
A
Yeah, you asked me that. My nose is crooked. Yeah, fix it.
- [24:33]
B
And then it's like, are there certain things about you that you prefer not to show? People don't notice, but naturally the side that you prefer. Prefer is the side that you actually open your hair to. Like, for a lot of women, they split not into the middle, but onto the side. Well, whatever side they're opening more to is actually the side that they show the most, so they're more comfortable showing that side.
- [24:52]
A
So when I'm funny Because my hair tends to go like, I know my.
- [24:56]
B
Hair is up a little side where a little.
- [24:57]
A
But it goes. It kind of goes to that side a little bit. And I'm usually always on that side.
- [25:01]
B
There you go. So I think when you ask questions, those, those type of questions at the beginning, you kind of can get a sense of like, okay, so these are the directions they're most comfortable with. So, hey, let's make them more comfortable. B. I never go into a conversation with someone new with being like a full blown handshake, introductions and everything. It's like a pounded or something. Initial instinct that person has is like, okay, this is chill.
- [25:26]
A
This is who they are.
- [25:27]
B
So like, you gotta put. I have to put myself authentically in front of people, whether or not it's a celebrity or it's a friend or if it's a stranger that, you know, I've just never met. But that, yeah, is just a normal human being. And I think conversations, certain special conversations at the beginning is just being like, so when did you start your career? And then that just puts them in a space where they get to talk about something comfortably. And then they can just have a conversation where they're teaching me something. And I listen to the way that they provide the information. Are they timid? Are they really energetic? Are they standoffish? Do they like to look away? They don't make eye contact. I can pick up on a lot of those cues and then I can decide from there, okay, like, how are we going to storytell who you are through this? So like, let's say you're a chef and so if you're like Gordon, a lot of the camera, a lot of the photos that we did was a lot of eyes to camera, so that made sense. But if there's a different chef who's like a more timid, I just like to keep my head down and cook and everything. Great. That's our story. Our story is that you are a great chef, but you are very focused on the food, artistic visual of it. So we're going to do a lot of those things. You're going to look down, I'm going to do a single light, make it look more contrasty, and then I'm going to get hand shots of you delicately placing things. Gordon is a TV host and looks in the camera all the time, so I'm going to get more energy of him just facing forward and doing those kinds of things. So, you know, when we were shooting, even the first time that we shot.
- [26:56]
A
Which is so funny, and I hate to pause. I just want to pause for a quick second. Within about the first 10 minutes of you guys setting up and. And just listening to how you were. I remember I said to Steve, can I. Can I hire? How do I. Can I get her? What are we talking here? And he's like, oh, yeah, I'll give you all this stuff after. But there was. But that's what it is, right? It's a. It's a feeling. I don't want to use the word vibe a it so much, but there is. For me, there's an authenticity, and that's what you do. So you put that, your authenticity out there first.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah.
- [27:27]
A
And that's how it draws people or not. But it actually is going to build better relationships.
- [27:32]
B
Yeah. And I think that that's kind of what helps me get someone comfortable in front of the camera. I think that, like, you know, or you're not writing an exam, there's no reason for you to. Well, sure. People come in nervous because the thing is, too, here's the biggest thing. A lot of photographers don't consider how the person might feel with when they look at the final result. So sometimes people come to me and they're already timid, and I can tell. I'm like, do you have anything that you don't love? And they're like, well, like, I hunch a lot in my photos. Or like, I'd love for you not to show my double chin. And I'm like, okay, we'll work on it. We're gonna shoot a higher angle. Or I always remind people when I do, like, corporate headshots, don't worry, we're gonna do a little bit of skin retouching. We're gonna revive a little bit of the shadows under your eyes. And you can already see them lighting up that they're excited about that. And they're like, oh, my gosh, you're listening. You care. It's not just a I'm gonna pick a photo for you and then send it to you. It's like, no, you're gonna get the opportunity to choose your photos. You need. And I always say this, you need to live with what's going to be on the Internet. So as a reminder of that, I'm not in control of that.
- [28:39]
A
Right, you are.
- [28:40]
B
So I think that there's a lot of that about a photography aspect, too, that, like, models is different. If you go into a photo shoot with a model, there's an art director and there's a bunch of marketing people and arts people. Who are going to be looking at the screen and they're deciding what tells the best story. They don't really care if the model likes it or not.
- [29:00]
A
The model's a prop.
- [29:01]
B
Yeah, they're a prop.
- [29:02]
A
It's not the person.
- [29:03]
B
So there's two styles of photography, really. And I do know that fashion photography has a lot of storytelling, but it has a lot of storytelling in movement and how the material presents itself and how they can make it a really cool thing. But when it comes to, like, real people, the personality of it is like, are these people more comfortable being slightly sideways or more straight on? Does someone have a hero kind of status? Are they the CEO, where, like, maybe we do have them sit a little stronger or maybe they do this, But I shoot a little higher too. It's got a little, like, Forbes top Kim shot right there. But then when you do that with people, I think storytelling is a lot in how people pose, and it's a lot about how comfortable they are in their skin as they are.
- [29:54]
A
Right.
- [29:55]
B
So, like, I do think that there's a bit more of a challenge there.
- [29:58]
A
Huge.
- [29:59]
B
Because I care more about what that person's gonna think instead of like, does this look great for a magazine? So I think that there are so many different challenges and different ways of photography, different aspects. Fashion, lifestyle, commercial, everything. But I think I enjoy what I do with real people because I get to also be my real self.
- [30:19]
A
Right.
- [30:19]
B
So, like, if I get to shoot the shit like I do with a lot of people, then I can be really laid back, and then they can be really laid back, and then the energy just flows easily. Right, right, right. I think even going to maybe flip the script and ask you about that. What do you think about the way that you talk in class? Probably also gives the students more of an opportunity to participate or ask crazy questions or, you know, maybe they'd be more shy to ask a question in a different classroom. But if you can give them an interesting answer or challenge them to give a second opinion or a thought to what they're thinking, I think that's what makes students learn better as well.
- [30:58]
A
They're more receptive, I think. But what you do is so much more difficult because I have a much longer time frame to ease into that. Right. It's like you really have a very narrow window. Even if you're talking about a full photo shoot, that's still a narrow window to figure a person out. As you're talking about this, I'm like, wow, there should be a thing that's Photography therapy. Not. I'm gonna fix you with photography. No, no, no. You're gonna use photography and people in front of the camera and how you're taking their picture as a tool to get at all of the things you just discussed, which might be a lot of aesthetic things, but you'll find out really quickly that, well, I turn this way because my mom always told me that my nose and blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, you're talking about somebody's mom.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah.
- [31:46]
A
And you're going deep into that. I think a lot of how we hold ourselves, a lot of, are we comfortable in this situation? Are we comfortable having conversations? Are we. That's all it. It very much, very quickly can be brought. You could have a whole other line. Yeah, a whole other. Okay, it's an hour of therapy. I'm gonna get the camera. You're gonna sit there, and you're gonna tell me why you don't want me to take a picture of your butt this way. That's a big thing. I'm telling you. And if you can, like, make somebody understand, like, again, going to the truth of the person. Because I still think that the truth of the person is going to make that individual feel more beautiful. And I don't just mean aesthetically. I mean, feel, like, internally more beautiful. When they see an authentic picture of.
- [32:35]
B
The person, that's almost like a series of, like, the art of confident posing.
- [32:39]
A
This is it.
- [32:40]
B
Where people find. Because they're 80 of the people that go in front of my camera, say, I don't like getting my pictures.
- [32:48]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:48]
B
Like, that is the first thing they say. Because a lot of people that I deal with are CEOs. Usually they just come in, they know their job, they sit there, they smile. I ask them to look away. I ask them to pose a little bit better. Okay, tie off. It looks too.
- [33:01]
A
CEOs.
- [33:01]
B
Are you taking pictures of a couple Pretty big positions. Pretty big people.
- [33:05]
A
But.
- [33:06]
B
But then you have their. But then you have their assistants and the, you know, VPs or the secretaries or the other positions that are more timid in front of the camera.
- [33:17]
A
Yeah.
- [33:17]
B
And I think when you have a conversation about, you know, what is it that you don't love about a certain thing? If you already ask that, then your job is to just make sure that those don't come up. But I do think, like, the art of confident posing could literally be a program for anyone and everyone. Even an online thing of being like, find the things you don't love. Look in front of a mirror. For a couple minutes and practice on how to avoid certain things. Like I have a deviated system. I have a crooked nose, too, so.
- [33:45]
A
If I have it, we should go get them fixed together.
- [33:47]
B
I'm getting one.
- [33:48]
A
I'm so terrified. Have you watched them do it?
- [33:51]
B
No, I'm trying not to. I don't want to know. I know that I know, but I don't want to know it explained it to me. I'm sitting in the chair, and he explained it to me. And my girlfriend was sitting in the corner, and she watched me go pale. Yeah, he had to recline my chair and let me drink some water. Same person almost passed out.
- [34:07]
A
Don't watch a video.
- [34:08]
B
And he was just explaining it to me and showing me the CT scans. The. Of my nose going like this through the photos, and I almost passed out. And it was purely just for the anxiety of thinking in my head at that point. The.
- [34:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [34:22]
B
The. The. The. The chisel to the nose bone and the click. That. That. That started to, all right, really make me queasy. But I don't know where that came from. Talking about, like, posing, you know, I think, like, if you. And. And you know what's really funny, too, is cameras are flipped. So when we're looking at our phone.
- [34:42]
A
That'S the biggest thing.
- [34:43]
B
Opposite thing.
- [34:45]
A
I wanted to say this to you too. I think that social media, it's not just about, okay, fine, we're. We're all somewhat superficial. People want to look good, whatever, However, a lot of people, because I never really knew my nose was crazy, broke it until I was in front of the damn camera every day. But I never recognized it this way. So when we're right, like right now, we're looking at this.
- [35:10]
B
This is my right way, this is my left.
- [35:12]
A
But it's gonna get flipped when this gets produced, which I won't watch it ever again. Look so crooked. So it's fine. But. But the thing is, I never knew that. So I'm like, did I injure? So as I'm watching myself when I'm doing tick tocks, everything's fine until my wife takes a video of me with the front facing camera. And I'm like, what the is that? And what I realized is everybody else sees me that horrible way.
- [35:38]
B
Oh.
- [35:38]
A
First of all, that's how every. Everybody else sees us. The right way. But we see ourselves mirrored. The only look at ourselves in the mirror. I know. Until I started being on this damn thing and it got flipped. And then I'm like, I wonder if My nose was always crooked. So I go back to, like, pictures when I was a kid.
- [35:54]
B
Yeah, it was always a little bit.
- [35:57]
A
Nobody told me my mom didn't fix it. I'm like, what?
- [36:01]
B
Do you have a beautiful mom?
- [36:02]
A
Did I get hit? I don't understand. But that's the funny thing. So. So the interesting part about social media and about being seeing, I think there's also a cathartic kind of coming to terms with who you actually are and how people see you. That's a very cool thing. Yeah, right. I think there's this, you know, this connection where people are like, oh, well, we're too superficial. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I. I think we can embrace the fact that we want to look good in this world. I don't think we need to negate all of our aesthetic. I mean, hop in the shower every day, guys. It's not going to hurt anybody. I think it's good. Get a good haircut.
- [36:43]
B
Haircuts are essential. Big confidence booster for me.
- [36:46]
A
Choose fashion.
- [36:52]
B
Choose neutral colors.
- [36:53]
A
They're good for your skin. Do you think there should be dress codes? I'm like, yeah, good dress. That's what there should be. It's not about what does the dress code.
- [37:01]
B
Dress.
- [37:01]
A
It's not about jeans. No jeans. It's about like. Like have a st.
- [37:06]
B
Pick a style and stick to it. Yeah.
- [37:09]
A
Side point. But I think there's something cool about coming to terms with. I think they're and. And. And psychologically powerful about looking at yourself the way everybody else sees you and embracing it in a way and coming to terms with it and dealing with it, rather than you took four pictures and you put them in your drawer and you never look at them again. Because I kind of like it. It's forcing us to. To face how people see us. And for those out there who are about to say, I don't care what people think, you're lying. You're lying to yourself. We all care what other people think, and I don't think it's such a horrible thing, because if you didn't care about what anybody. She could probably be pretty horrible person. So I think it's okay to care about what other people think to a certain degree. But I think there, again, I think there should be a level of therapy. Take videos of yourself.
- [38:02]
B
You know what, though? And I'm not gonna lie. So I did my first REALS post about a year, maybe a year and a couple months ago, and I literally went on screen and I said, okay, so don't know What I'm doing, we're gonna just try this. And I was like, I'm gonna try and be more present on social media. I had been two years out of a relationship that I had been with someone for four and a half years. So I was trying to basically, like, find my identity again, because I think, like, the first year out of a breakup, that's a really heavy relationship. And I'm 37, so I was nearing, like, 35. I want to get engaged. 38. Want to buy a house.
- [38:40]
A
This is it. This is the time.
- [38:41]
B
40, and we're five years apart. So she'd be 35, we'd have a kid, and we'd start a family, and, you know, we broke up. And then I was like, did I just waste four and a half years of losing my identity, or am I just becoming a new person now? So with the two years of just kind of, like, focusing on other things, I felt I found a new passion of, like, working out in a very different way. I started doing a lot of heavy lifting, and my body changed, and I got more muscular, and I love it. But then also, like, a lot of my back pains and my mental. My mental exhaustion was, like, also dissipating. And then I was starting to learn that, like, this healthy lifestyle for me is a very healthy thing for longevity.
- [39:25]
A
And I work out a lot too, guys.
- [39:27]
B
No. And then I went on social media, and I was like, I think I'm gonna try and just not even do this for popularity, not do this for followers, but I'm gonna do it to keep myself accountable, because I feel like when I go on stories and, like, even just two or three random people that I don't really know on Instagram, I'm acquaintance by following that they'll comment something funny or that they acknowledge that my video was there. I was starting to get a bit more of, like, okay, maybe this is, like, a cool thing for even my mental space. But the difference, though, is that, like, I've always been very neutral, and I've never really got into arguments with people on social, because my conversations. My conversations are very much just, like, amazing. Making a morning coffee, like, no one's gonna tell me it's too black.
- [40:14]
A
I'll tell you.
- [40:15]
B
Add more milk.
- [40:16]
A
Milk and sugar. The right coffee is a double bubble.
- [40:20]
B
But, like, I started to find that, like, it was getting interesting. I was waking up in the morning, I was excited to start filming something, and I was doing it for myself. But then I think it got more interesting to other people, and I think My confidence did grow from it.
- [40:36]
A
Sure.
- [40:37]
B
So I think that there are two sides of social media. I think that there are people who do it for self growth and then there are people who also do it for the education of bringing awareness to other people because of something that they know better than others, which is very fair. It's very much also a platform to learn from. So, like, when I check out your page and I watch some of your things, I'm like, it's a really valid point. Or wow, that's really interesting. I didn't even know that this was happening. Or, you know, I don't get involved into the news. I find that for me, politics and the news for personal, it's like a little too hard and it's depressing and it's a hard place to be in, especially right now too. There's a lot of things going on, especially with politics. There's people yelling at people, people backlash, everything, whatever. Finding things from the past and trying to. Like, even my friends were having these weird debates on text messages about, like, he said this, but he did that. And I'm just like, honestly, I am okay with your decision. You vote for who you want, I'll vote for who I want. But at the end of the day, like, let's just meet together and whatever happens, we have to accept it and we just hope for the change that we need. And if we don't, we have to take our own steps to make it better. And so I think social media is the same way. I think that like, if consistently someone is doing something for clickbait, they'll consistently get clickbait and they, and, and maybe it's like a negative one. Well then they, they're not teaching anyone anything and they're not giving their authentic self probably to it either. So I think Instagram is a very. Or social media in general, tick tock is a huge part too. But I think that we live in such a very different world than our parents. And I posted about this the other day where my parents, my dad is 76 and my mom is 73. And so they're the boomers that like, you know, I was talking about this with my dad just yesterday. He was like, a house when we were 30 was $200,000 and our down payment was 20,000. But then he also said that like, you know, at that time they were only making like $15,000 a year. So like, sure, that seems substantially high. But I have a really hard time having a conversation about the economy now with my parents because I Do feel like there's been such, such wavy recessions and, and then the market doesn't reflect the way that people are living. The groceries are so high, but the minimum wage is so low. And so I look at the people who are living in housing and stuff like that and I'm just like, how do you pay for your groceries? Even at no frills, strawberries are $7. And so I'm trying to have conversations, open conversations about these things with my parents. And sometimes I have the why don't you own property yet? And I'm like, I'm not going to buy a two million dollar home so that I can turnkey.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah.
- [43:33]
B
But if I buy an 800 one, I probably have to tear down every single wall in the house and take out all the asbestos and start over. So it's going to cost me the same anyway.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah.
- [43:41]
B
So I think we're in a world right now where it's a, it's really hard to accept where everyone is with their lives. Like I had a conversation with my dad, the same conversation, he was like, the, the 19s to 34s are thriving. And I'm like, yeah, you know why, dad? Social media came into their life and it was very cool. It's very hip thing to do. And so people literally got rich on Twitch and YouTube and all these platforms that allowed them to literally make millions. Some of the richest teenagers are literally just choreographing dances on TikTok. And that is a platform that you guys didn't even have the Internet. Like this isn't even something that we can compare to. So when we're talking about how the world is progressing and where we feel like we should be, if we compare ourselves to our parents, I mean like the world just doesn't compare. We aren't where they were. And so I think personally that things like these platforms and with the Internet and the way that things have progressed is that we have been faced with very different challenges.
- [44:46]
A
Absolutely.
- [44:47]
B
Like if my parents went to the movies on a random weekend and it was two bucks and it was the drive in and you ate popcorn, like people just didn't care and then, and then the image didn't care. So like if you ate a couple popcorns and you gained a couple pounds, it was whatever. But God forbid we're on social media and everyone sees it, then we're concerned about I, I should eat less and I should do more things to my face and I should do more things to, to be pretty. The, the pretty in my head that I'm not pretty enough. And, and just that I think has caused so many challenges and obstacles and self confidence in people who, you know, aren't the teenagers making millions of dollars that we kind of. For me personally, sometimes I feel like it's not a beauty thing that I'm in, but I watch the young kids driving the Lamborghinis and I don't want the fancy car, but I'd love to have their financial security.
- [45:41]
A
Right, Right.
- [45:42]
B
But I'm also just not there with my life. I am, I'm, I, I live a happy life. I'm healthy. I, you know, I have a very sustainable lifestyle. But I'd like to own a house. I'd like to have a few things that wouldn't stress me financially. But, but I think that it's, there's more pressure now because there's just, we just have access to seeing so much more of the world that you know, we're overly educated to compare ourselves to people.
- [46:15]
A
So I think, I do think in your parents day they're still keeping up with the Joneses. That's the era it was built. I think comparing yourself to, to your neighbor, to your immediate peer group and your friend group I think was always possible. Here's the difference. I think we've always been comparison based people.
- [46:35]
B
Yeah.
- [46:35]
A
I think today, sure, the net's bigger, you can compare to more. I don't think that's the problem because I think when you compare to more then you can actually find your niche. The people that only want to talk about Raiders of the Lost Ark until they're blue in the face. You got your people, people that want to dress up as, you know, Vulcans and learn an actual different language and go to those. You're going to find your people. I think there's all these lovely branches of it. Here's what I think it is though. It never stops.
- [47:02]
B
Yeah.
- [47:03]
A
That's the problem with social media. It. I don't think it's anything but amount. So like when we were kids, guess what? You could only talk on the phone to one person.
- [47:15]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
And your friends would get a busy signal.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah.
- [47:19]
A
Like we had that.
- [47:24]
B
Let me get back to you.
- [47:25]
A
There's another line. I don't mind. You are rich.
- [47:28]
B
And then you hang up. You do, you don't even know. You do the, the whole.
- [47:32]
A
You didn't even know. So that was all of the interaction you could take. But when, now when kids and adults for that matter, at home you have the world. And I mean that in a, in a broad sense. And like you know, breaking news sense and in a celebrity sense. And what are you. What's your friend doing with the 17th kid that they've had and these people over here bought four houses is you're. It's the consistent inundation of information. Because I really do think that when our parents were young, peer pressure, the thing. Why do you think they all freaking smoked? It wasn't because they thought it was just. They thought it was good for them. Peer pressure and, and societal pressure was always a thing. It was just a matter of it did you had a minute when you went home after school? You had a freaking. Now you did what? Let's be honest, the TV was never off in my house. Was it off in yours? So I was. Yeah, there was that.
- [48:26]
B
We were, we were forced to play outside.
- [48:29]
A
Well, I did play outside, but if I was inside, my TV was on.
- [48:31]
B
Really well that's so interesting.
- [48:33]
A
I was always making in front of it always on. You walk in, you put it on.
- [48:37]
B
That was it background sound.
- [48:39]
A
Right. So I, I do, I agree with all that. But you said something before that I want to come back to you. You said after your breakup you think you became a different person. Can I argue that? No, I don't think you did. I think you weren't the person. I think you were probably a version of who you were were in that relationship that was unsustainable to accommodate to someone else. Yeah, I think you always. We are who we are. I think sometimes you go through a relationship that you think is going to be it and you accommodate and you accommodate and you bend and not because the other person's horrible and not because you're, you know, you don't have confidence, but because you want it to work. And I think as we get older you recognize the more there. There's a compromising about what you're going to have for dinner and then there's a compromising and then there's a compromising about what's important and who you are and what the truth is and what boundary. I don't know the friggin boundary was until about five years ago. Boundary?
- [49:34]
B
Yeah.
- [49:35]
A
What are you talking about? About? Well, when we start to learn all of those things, I think we become us. I don't think we transform into something else.
- [49:45]
B
What I'll add to that though is that I do think when you make sure that you are also setting those boundaries, things are harder.
- [49:54]
A
So hard.
- [49:55]
B
They're much harder. Relationships in my past were very much black and white. It was like we came Home, we, I made dinner, we sat down, watched a little TV show. And it is what it is. And now like, my partner's a huge reader and I'm not, but I love to cook. So, you know, she hasn't been able to pick up a book in a while. But I think the future plan, when I see what we're doing is, is come home from work, I get into the kitchen because that's what I love. And for me it's therapy. And then she's on the couch and she's reading a book and like we can do our own thing and still be in the same space and it's okay. And I think the younger times, we were just like, we were trying to be so absorbed in each other. Because you think that that's the definition of a healthy relationship.
- [50:36]
A
Yeah.
- [50:37]
B
And then when it's over, then you're like, this was my everything.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah.
- [50:41]
B
This was the person, this was everything that I put my time into. I'm alone, what do I do? And I think that that was the great thing was like you were saying, I wasn't trying to find a new me. I was just trying to get back to what I think, what I think is my best self. And so being able to do that, the relationships with me and friends and in relationships and with my parents have set new boundaries where I'm like, you know what? That's not good for me.
- [51:08]
A
Yep.
- [51:08]
B
That space, that conversation, that environment right now is not good for my mental state. State. There are some days, you know, my parents live a 22 hour drive from here. There's no way that like I'm homesick or three hour flight, but there's no way that like I'm homesick and I'm just getting on a plane and I'm going. So there are some times where I can reflect and be like, is this a conversation? I'm willing to put more pressure on my parents and make them worry about me that I'm homesick or can I do other things for myself that brings me back? Like, like, okay, if I'm feeling a little lonely or I'm feeling a little down, what are some of the things that I can do for myself that can bring me back to a good mental space? And I think that there's a lot of advantages of that, of being so far from your family that you are so independent. But I think, you know, some of that unfortunately is like, I go to social media and I find comfort in like finding funny things to watch and sending them to my friends or Having.
- [52:08]
A
Little text messages, I think that's a great thing.
- [52:11]
B
Yeah. But I think that that's the thing is like, you know, there are boundaries where, like now I can also respect where I'm not in a good place to talk. If my mom wants to just check in, I'm like, hey, mom, two seconds. Yeah, I've got, I've got two minutes. And we'll have a quick conversation. I'll just be like, listen, I love you very much, but I'm gonna let go. And then it's that. And I think the older we get, I don't feel so bad doing that because if I can't give my mom 100% of my attention or if I'm not there mentally, I don't want to make her energy shift as well. And I think that the older we get, the more accepting of the more we can acknowledge those things. And we don't. We're not, not choosing them, but you're choosing you. And there's a huge difference there. I think the younger we are, we're just so. We're so aware of our surroundings that we forget.
- [52:57]
A
Like, I don't think we ever had time. I, I don't think our culture allows or affords kids to truly get that. When you say, oh, go, you know, remember when they used to say, like, go find yourself backpacking around Europe, Listen, you can find yourself anywhere. But the I, the notion that there should be carved out time in a different type of time that you're taking just for you. We don't do that. Nothing's about that. It's about go to school, then go to more school, then find somebody to get married and then have kids, and then make sure you take care of your parents and then make sure you make enough money. Money. It's all very, very much segmented and we don't construct and give any time. When people say, what's the number one suggestion I have for, for teens? I say go to therapy. Not to fix you. We all have things to fix, but not to fix you, to understand you. So, so there are going to be, you're going to have a lot of unconscious drives in your life. We'll go figure out why the hell they're happening, figure out if they're okay, figure out if the end result helped you, but figure it out, figure out what the hell a boundary is. Like, you know, when we, we, we have all consuming relationships where if it broke, where if you die, I die. That is messed up. That is mess.
- [54:14]
B
Romeo and Juliet.
- [54:15]
A
That is messed up. You should always want. You should want to be with your partner because you respect. Because you. Because you love them because of all of those beautiful things. But in the same breath, if they were no longer here for good or for bad reasons, your response shouldn't be, well, I die.
- [54:33]
B
Yeah.
- [54:33]
A
What?
- [54:34]
B
I'm hopeless without you. What?
- [54:35]
A
And that should be true about your parents, about your friends, about anybody. You should understand that having beautiful people in your life is essential and is important and is fantastic. But if they are removed for any number of reasons, you better figure out how you will be just fine and healthy and powerful in all of those things. And when you finally figure that out, sitting with your partner and saying, I love you, let's say you want to get married, or, I'll be with you forever. We're gonna have kids. But in the same breath to say, but if you chose not to be in my life, I would wish you well, and I will be just fine.
- [55:12]
B
Yeah.
- [55:13]
A
Having. Say that to your partner outright. See if it starts to fight, number one, because if it does, then y'all gotta go to therapy. That's the number one thing. But that you. There's no way you learn that in your 20th 20s. No way. I learned it similar to you, only because I went through a horrific divorce, and all of a sudden I felt like I was gonna die. And I'm like, but why? Right? And then you have. You're. You're just forced. You're forced into yourself a little bit. And. And I think that's why a lot of young kids and a lot of people who have to go through hard things. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Don't, don't. Don't stay there. Go through what you have to go through. I mean that by, you know, you don't. If you're gonna go through hell, keep going. That mentality, go through it, go through it. But recognize then that gets to be your freaking superpower.
- [56:00]
B
Yeah.
- [56:01]
A
Whatever it was. Because you went through it.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah.
- [56:04]
A
No matter if you're 14 or 47, it doesn't matter. That is now your superpower. So don't you dare shy away from it. Don't pack it away. Don't. Don't, you know, push it off to the side. That's your thing. And if it's in. Within a relationship, share it. It. Right. If it's with whatever familial. Creating boundaries for families, really, really hard. But if you can figure out how to do that in who you are, then everybody does better, not just you. I joke with Ann all the time I'm like, you know, when we got together, I said, I. I lied very little. And here's what I mean by that. Because everybody's like, why would you lie at all? Tell you why you all do it. You all say you like hiking. Liars. Yeah, liars. You like their favorite movie. Stop it.
- [56:52]
B
You know what's funny about hiking, too?
- [56:53]
A
Nobody likes hiking, stupid.
- [56:55]
B
I was dating my ex for four and a half. We met while she lived in Vancouver. And every time.
- [57:01]
A
Hiker.
- [57:02]
B
No, she's from Toronto, but she moved there for studies.
- [57:05]
A
Hiking. For hiking.
- [57:06]
B
Every time we hung out, there was a conversation about going for a hike and I would do it for her. And deep down, I was like, I hate hiking.
- [57:16]
A
I'll go for a walk in a mall. There's buying things.
- [57:22]
B
I did the woods thing too. We drove across Canada to come home, and I was miserable. The. The five of those ten days we were in the woods and I was miserable.
- [57:33]
A
There are hikers and there are non hikers. I think this might be the great divide. My point is this is that when you get into a relationship, we all put on a stupid front.
- [57:41]
B
Y.
- [57:41]
A
It is dumb. It is useless. And all it does is it just forces us. It. It. It creates a buffer. And it takes us longer to get to a breakup. That's what it only does, guys.
- [57:52]
B
It prolongs the you telling.
- [57:54]
A
It just pushes it off. Yeah, right. Anna told me her favorite movie was Dirty Dancing Havana Nights, and we threw down. I'm like, are you okay? She's like, how can you not? And this was in the first, like, like baby moments. And the reason why I knew that that was going to be a beautiful relationship was because I am not interested in candy. You can keep it as your favorite movie. I'm embarrassed eternally for you. However, I am not interested in candy coating stupid crap in the fairy tale thingy. You want to go for a hike? Throw me a text when you want me to pick you up. Like, it's just not my. That's fine. And you can have different. And. And by the way, like, she'd say, say, joe, you haven't hung out with your friends by yourself in a long, you know, in a while. So go over to Amy's house or go to. Go to Lou and Stacy's or whatever. And I'm like, really? Because my last relationship, it would have been like super codependent. Like, if I leave the house, if I move left, you gotta, you know, or else we're. We're breaking up and we're all, everybody's dying. And she'd be like, go. Because you guys talk like when you're with Amy, you talk about grade nine. I don't want any part of it. Get out. Go. But there's the beauty. Now most of the time we do stuff together. But you only get that when you have actual confidence in two things. In who you are and in what you're. How honest you can be in that relationship. Yeah, the, the most powerful testament about a relationship is how thoughtful. I'm not, I'm not saying be an ass people, but how thoughtful you you are, but how honest you are in a relationship. That is the test of its longevity. Not about what you have common interest in. You'll find stuff to do together. And I'm not saying I never go for a hike. I'm just saying no, I don't go for it. Anna doesn't like it either, so it's fine. There's compromise. Yeah, there's compromise, but you don't have to lie about it. You know what I mean? And I think that's incredibly important. But I don't think you get that, that until you become more authentically yourself. And what we've done, I think what we've always done is we push off that because we're so busy trying to do. Then I do this, then I do this, then I do this, then I do this. And there's no time to take a freaking breath and understand. And I really do think it should be university or college or whatever you want to do. Like I think that era high school, you're too young, you're still developing. You, your frontal lobe isn't even developed yet. It's not going to happen. Then the post high school, the early 20 somethings, that's it. That's the time where you can carve out. No matter what you're doing, you can carve out. How do I figure out who I am, who I want to be, what I am comfortable with, how I drop draw lines? Draw them with your family first because it's gonna be the hardest. How do I do that? We should be doing it then instead of trying to think of like 20 something nows are like, well, how do I get to my first million drop shipping? Well, no, because then you're not figuring out you at all. You're. You're defining you by how much money you're gonna make. And that's not again, you're just gonna push off the inevitable. Right?
- [61:15]
B
The, the funny thing about all that you're saying too. Is that I always find the most interesting people. Other people I've had conversations with where they said I back. I backpacked on my own when I was 22 in Europe for six months.
- [61:25]
A
Sure.
- [61:26]
B
And I'm like, how scary is that? No. But then I'm like, oh, so you actually know yourself.
- [61:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You try.
- [61:33]
B
You sat with yourself in silence for six months trying to figure out what you did and didn't, like, listen in a different country.
- [61:39]
A
That's what Kobe did. And that's why everybody covet. Forced a lot of people.
- [61:45]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:45]
A
He just a very quiet, dark places. And I know nobody likes the lockdown. Okay, well, don't you go argue about all of that. I'm telling you right now, the three months because I. I got divorced, that everything locked down. So it was like. It was just the work.
- [62:02]
B
So it wasn't even like you can. Well, you could socialize if you wanted to, but within your circle, you can even leave the house.
- [62:09]
A
Oh, my God. But that's a. Come to terms. I was gonna say come to. Jeez. That's not really my thing. But that was a. That was figure You're. You're locked in. Why do you think so many relationships exploded then? They didn't explode because of it.
- [62:26]
B
It just expedited together under one bruise.
- [62:30]
A
There we go. And pushed it through. Because you're all. Because the. If you're all trapped together and all of a sudden stuff goes awry. You know why? Why? Because you're all lying about hiking, and you can lie about hiking for increments of the day. Not 24 straight and not for three months.
- [62:48]
B
No.
- [62:48]
A
That's the bottom line.
- [62:50]
B
Yeah.
- [62:50]
A
So I like it.
- [62:51]
B
I.
- [62:52]
A
And that's why all those horrible. Like, not that I would ever go on a retreat, because that's in the woods, but those, like, quiets. Those quiet retreats where people go crazy. That's why they're so. They're so cathartic and they just. You know, it's. It expedites. Just like you said, it expedites all of this stuff. But we're so. And this is what social media does too, problematically. We fill our day when we're having bad thought rather than necessarily dealing with the thought or figuring out, this is the thing. I got to deal with the thing. Like, now I'm gonna go on.
- [63:26]
B
Yeah, right.
- [63:28]
A
I'm gonna scroll or I'm gonna go do a tick tock, and people are gonna tell me I'm lovely, and I get past. I'm fine. I Feel fine. Right, Right.
- [63:34]
B
And I think. I think, you know, 37, and I think I still do it with that. I think that that's. Sometimes that is unfortunately my coping mechanism. That is my quote, unquote, therapy.
- [63:45]
A
Yeah.
- [63:46]
B
Outside of working out with my coach and talking about life with my coach as well, I think that those are the things where, like, you know, we. Here's the thing. There's two. There's two things that are incredibly interesting about social media is one, you learn how much hate there is in the world and there's bullying and how many people are insecure and how many people need to talk a lot of. But then there's also such a huge level of education and good people that, like, when I. When I tell my dad something random where I'm like, yeah, this, this, and this, then he's like, where did you read that? And I'm like, it was on social media. And then you. You get your parents who say, don't believe everything that's on social media. And you're like, like, dad, social media is the new news. Yeah, well, it's a. It's a beautiful.
- [64:33]
A
Of course. So it's this beautiful starting point. I would argue that kids today, because everybody's like, kids today, they don't know anything. I'm like, you know what the hell you're talking about? They know way more than I ever knew. Now, is there a. A plethora, just like, image. So now we have a plethora of information that is going to be. You know, we used a lot of encyclopedias in the shoot this morning, and we're like, was. Was information better back then? And I said, absolutely not. Because every. We thought all the truth was in this one book. Here's all the truth about A. And literally A, the letter A. This is the truth. And we thought if it was in a book, it was true.
- [65:13]
B
Yeah.
- [65:13]
A
And the reality is that that was never the case. And there's all these sort of multifaceted aspects of the truth that if you learn enough of the stories, you get closer to it and you'll never get to the end result. The kids know. Understand that. Kids also understand that, oh, well, that could be absolute garbage. And we get inundated with a lot of garbage. But then your job as a human being is to find and. And figure out. To verify sources, figure out common sense, what makes sense, and to go down, to go down that line. But to assume, like, when I was a kid, we. We didn't even know that residential schools existed. Wasn't in the history book.
- [65:53]
B
Yep.
- [65:54]
A
Right. So where was the truth then?
- [65:56]
B
Yeah. And when that was discovered years ago, I mean, like, everyone was traumatized. And the thing is, is that everyone was traumatized because the only people who really knew about it was the people going through it.
- [66:08]
A
Yeah. Who, by the way, talked about it. And nobody believed them and nobody recorded it because it didn't serve the people that were in charge of the books.
- [66:16]
B
What was against.
- [66:17]
A
Right.
- [66:17]
B
Church.
- [66:18]
A
It didn't. Was against the church. It was against the government.
- [66:20]
B
Yeah.
- [66:21]
A
We think the government's going to put in the curriculum.
- [66:23]
B
Oh, cool.
- [66:23]
A
I'm going to give it to the grade tens to learn how horrible our history is. You know, so I think all those. You. You take all of those things and then wrapping it back to photography a little bit because I know it's. I've taken an hour out of your.
- [66:36]
B
I love this. This is great.
- [66:37]
A
Wrapping it back to photography. I do want to say, though, that photography never sees the. The final truth. It sees a moment of truth. And I think what we need to start understanding as people in, In a human race is that, that we will only get closer to truth by understanding moments of truth. We might not. We will never get to the full end, but the process of trying to see those moments, I think is the most important thing we can do. And I think photography and instances, not video, but instances of people and, you know, events. I think photography has a way of getting to a moment of truth. Truth that I think we all have to sort of understand and sort of come to terms with so we can understand the bigger picture.
- [67:28]
B
Yep. And I agree.
- [67:30]
A
So to wrap it up today, can you tell the people where to find you, please? All the places to find you. All the social media places. Ripple. Ripple.
- [67:38]
B
Yeah, Ripple Media Group.
- [67:40]
A
Ripple Media. Is that a dotcom? Yeah, ripplemediagroup.com. i'll put it down.
- [67:45]
B
But elainefancy.com is definitely where Elaine Fancy.
- [67:50]
A
Really? I don't know why you're not acting. You really dropped the ball. Like your name's Elaine Finch.
- [67:57]
B
I know, but I feel like my name is too feminine. I would have loved a little bit more unisex.
- [68:01]
A
Is it the Fancy or the Elaine that you think?
- [68:03]
B
No, the Fancy is prime. That's.
- [68:05]
A
But then if you just went like.
- [68:06]
B
Elle Fancy Jordan, or like.
- [68:12]
A
Like a neutral name, Jordan. Every. Every gay girl in the world's like, why isn't my name Jordan? I don't know a Jordan. Have you ever met a Jordan?
- [68:23]
B
Oh, yeah. Too many.
- [68:25]
A
Is 32 your sport number, by the way?
- [68:27]
B
It it's my basketball number. Basketball, yeah. Now we're talking about that. Right? We'll do a part two. A little bit of a basketball career too, but yeah. So Instagram is E Fancy.
- [68:42]
A
E underscore fancy. I like.
- [68:44]
B
And my Website fancy. Yeah. E.com Someone definitely owns. Sounds like a. I bet you. I bet you that everyone. Someone owns every single letter probably.
- [68:59]
A
Okay, so E underscore fancy.
- [69:02]
B
Yeah. And I. That's the same on Tick Tock. But I am very fresh and new to Tick Tock.
- [69:06]
A
Well, step it up.
- [69:07]
B
I know I gotta step up my game. Everybody keeps saying that. Like, why aren't you just reposting what you post on Instagram on Tick Tock? And I think that just for me is I have a hard time enough.
- [69:17]
A
Yeah, it's really hard. Even just me today, Even just me today trying to Tick Tock doing something that I have to be very present for. It's very, very hard because your brain.
- [69:27]
B
Needs to switch between what your image is on your socials versus you trying to.
- [69:32]
A
You need an intern.
- [69:33]
B
Oh, okay.
- [69:33]
A
You need an intern that's in charge of coming to shoots, learning how to do everything, and then videotaping it and then poking it, posting it to Tick Tock. That's what you need.
- [69:42]
B
See, that'd be nice.
- [69:43]
A
Yeah.
- [69:43]
B
Maybe I need to get some advice from you.
- [69:45]
A
Just like you get a, you get a high school student or a college student who. This is their, this is what they want to do.
- [69:51]
B
Social media marketing.
- [69:52]
A
Yeah.
- [69:52]
B
And then, I mean, that's a real job. That's an actual university program now.
- [69:56]
A
As it should be. 100. As it should be. Yeah. But get them. If they want to learn photography, it's not just about the social media aspect. Right. That's the way they're going to learn. And as they're, as they're going through it, it, you know, that's how you can build your page.
- [70:08]
B
That is some of the follower. The people I follow. The most that I find the most interesting is photographers who actually do kind of strip down and they're like, this is how I shot this portrait.
- [70:16]
A
That's what I'm saying.
- [70:17]
B
I'm like, oh, let me just save this for my reference.
- [70:20]
A
So you have somebody that films you and then cuts it all up and puts it up.
- [70:23]
B
That's it.
- [70:25]
A
So if you're looking for an internship, There you go. Ripple media.com. thank you so much for hanging out. Thanks, I appreciate it. And guys, wait till you see my book coverage. It's gonna blow you away. I'm not gonna lie.
- [70:39]
B
I'm very excited.
- [70:39]
A
Thank you for hanging out. I will see you guys next Tuesday. Same bad time, same bad station dismissed.