The One Where I Draw an Oval...That's Not What This Book Is About

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unlearn16 – "The One Where I Draw an Oval...That's Not What This Book Is About"

Podcast Information

• Title: Unlearn16: Class is in Session
• Host/Author: Unlearn16
• Episode Title: The One Where I Draw an Oval...That's Not What This Book Is About
• Release Date: June 20, 2025
• Description: A teacher with a sarcastic wit whose passion for debate and discussion spans the political, social, and pop culture spectrums. PS – a solid metaphor can solve all life’s problems.

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Introduction and Guest Background

The episode opens with Host A introducing his uncle Ray (Speaker B), a seasoned educator who serves as a father figure with a 13-year age gap. The familial bond is emphasized as A recounts their close relationship and Ray’s immediate support whenever problems arise ([00:03]–[01:08]).

Discussion on Ray’s Book

A transitions into discussing Ray’s book, prompting a candid conversation about Ray’s self-perception and eccentricities. Ray humorously admits, “I think you represented my oddities, not my normal normality” ([02:09]–[02:38]). This sets the tone for an honest exploration of teaching philosophies and personal anecdotes.

Teaching Philosophies and Methods

Ray delves into his teaching style, emphasizing the importance of performance and storytelling in the classroom. He explains, “Every now and then, you glimpse into who I really am” ([03:58]–[04:05]). A highlights the balance between performance and authenticity, questioning if Ray’s method is unusual. Ray affirms, “A good teacher knows that teaching is all about performance” ([06:05]–[06:10]).

Impact of Educational Policies

The conversation shifts to the evolution of the education system, particularly referencing the Mike Harris cuts and subsequent policy changes. Ray criticizes the increasing demands placed on teachers to cater to diverse learning styles, labeling it “the ultimate lie of education” ([13:52]–[13:55]). A agrees, noting the unrealistic expectations set on educators to teach effectively to 30 different styles in a single classroom ([22:02]–[22:03]).

Challenges with Standardized Testing

A and Ray express frustration with standardized testing methods. Ray recounts a troubling experience where a student demanded unlimited time for a test, leading to conflicts with administration ([14:03]–[15:47]). They critique the black-and-white grading system, arguing it fails to capture a student’s true understanding and efforts. Ray shares his disdain for relying solely on test results, stating, “Nothing wrong with the test. Nothing wrong” ([43:57]–[43:58]).

Class Sizes and Teaching Effectiveness

The discussion highlights the detrimental effects of large class sizes on teaching quality. Ray advocates for smaller classes, arguing they allow for better student-teacher interactions and personalized feedback ([42:35]–[43:58]). A concurs, emphasizing how small class sizes can sometimes disrupt social dynamics essential for teen development ([42:48]–[43:58]).

Student Anxiety and Learning

A poignant segment explores the relationship between student anxiety and academic performance. Ray shares personal experiences of high anxiety during his teaching years, linking it to the pressures of categorization and streaming ([51:14]–[53:07]). They discuss how anxiety can drive productivity but also hinder genuine understanding and personal growth. A narrates a story of a determined student aiming to become a pilot, highlighting the beauty of perseverance ([20:02]–[21:35]).

Memorization vs. Mastery in Education

The hosts debate the merits of memorization versus true mastery of subjects. Ray criticizes the current educational approach that prioritizes quick results over deep understanding, stating, “It's how they do math competitions” ([47:58]–[48:12]). A contrasts this with the necessity of mastering foundational skills, using times tables as an example ([45:17]–[46:21]).

Balance Between Academics and Extracurriculars

A and Ray discuss the role of sports and extracurricular activities in fostering work ethic and social skills. Ray argues that sports provide essential opportunities for students to excel and develop resilience, while A shares his personal journey in sports as a source of leadership and drive ([60:26]–[65:22]). They agree that recognizing diverse talents beyond academics can boost student confidence and overall performance.

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Throughout the episode, both speakers share heartfelt anecdotes that illustrate their points. Ray recounts his struggles with Polish language classes and the importance of hard work, while A reflects on his own teaching experiences and the impact of supportive educators ([36:24]–[38:44], [47:13]–[49:52]). These stories humanize the broader discussions on education, making the conversation relatable and impactful.

Concluding Thoughts and Words of Wisdom

As the episode wraps up, A attempts to draw a metaphor about drawing an oval, which Ray humorously corrects. They conclude by reiterating the importance of recognizing and nurturing each student's unique strengths, beyond standardized metrics ([66:43]–[67:25]). A emphasizes the need for educators to inspire hard work and continuous improvement, encapsulating the episode’s central themes of passion, dedication, and the transformative power of education.

Notable Quotes

• Ray (Speaker B): “I think you represented my oddities, not my normal normality.” ([02:16])
• A: “A good teacher knows that teaching is all about performance.” ([06:05])
• Ray: “The ultimate lie of education.” ([13:52])
• Ray: “Every now and then, you glimpse into who I really am.” ([03:58])
• A: “If you work hard enough, you will get better at things. That's it.” ([66:50])

Key Takeaways

1. Performance in Teaching: Effective teaching involves a balance of performance and authenticity, using storytelling and engagement to foster understanding.
2. Impact of Education Policies: Policy changes often impose unrealistic expectations on teachers, hindering their ability to cater to diverse student needs.
3. Standardized Testing Flaws: Relying solely on standardized tests and grades fails to capture a student’s true capabilities and understanding.
4. Class Sizes Matter: Smaller class sizes enhance the quality of education by allowing for personalized attention and better student-teacher interactions.
5. Managing Student Anxiety: While anxiety can drive productivity, it can also impede genuine learning and personal growth, necessitating supportive teaching approaches.
6. Memorization vs. Mastery: Emphasizing memorization over deep understanding undermines students’ ability to apply knowledge effectively in real-world scenarios.
7. Value of Extracurriculars: Sports and other extracurricular activities play a crucial role in developing work ethic, leadership, and resilience among students.
8. Recognizing Diverse Talents: Educators should acknowledge and nurture each student’s unique strengths beyond academic metrics to foster confidence and holistic development.

Conclusion

This episode of Unlearn16: Class is in Session provides a profound exploration of the current challenges in the education system, emphasizing the need for personalized teaching methods, realistic educational policies, and recognition of diverse student talents. Through candid conversations and personal stories, Host A and Uncle Ray offer valuable insights into making education more effective, inclusive, and empowering for both teachers and students.

Transcript

[A]

Classes in session. Hey, everybody, and welcome to Unlearn 16. Class is in session. For those who know me a little bit, this is my Uncle Ray, and he's already leading with some pretty hard shots, so this should be an interesting. The first thing he said was, is this going out live? Can we edit it? And I said, I'm not going to edit it. He goes, okay. I go, what'd you think about my book?

[B]

And you said, we can talk about it on the video.

[A]

Okay. First and foremost is to give people some background. Number one, Ray is my mom's youngest brother. Number two, very much like a father figure. Maybe an older brother. I mean, I don't really know. Maybe a back and forth in there. There's a 13 year. 13 year difference.

[B]

13 year gap.

[A]

13 year gap. So, yeah, he was around my whole life, like, whether he was taking care of me when I were young. We lived together as a whole family for a few years in Mansfield. And right to this day, anytime I have a problem, I call him and he comes down in about 37 seconds. So.

[B]

Practiced on you. Failed miserably. And then had my own children.

[A]

He's on his own. He has three kids, apparently. He says he's practiced on me. That's nice. So what mistakes did we make with me, do you think that you, like, reshape and then put onto your own obviously perfect children?

[B]

Everything. I remember being so frustrated by you. Right. Your mom would always side with you. Your mom would always think you were perfect.

[A]

And let's be.

[B]

And it was frustrating.

[A]

Who do you know that's more perfect than I? You're gonna say Rebecca, and that's just.

[B]

Because Blood and Dempsey. Dempsey is my favorite.

[A]

The doll.

[B]

Really good. Grandpa.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So needless to say, Ray and I have been through pretty much. I'm going to get into a few stories, but we're going to start with the chapter of the book. So would you. He wanted to wait. So what'd you think about the book?

[B]

I think you represented my oddities, not my normal normality. Oh, so what sticks in your or?

[A]

What are important?

[B]

No, that's what's stuck in your head.

[A]

Yeah, but what. Can you give me one? Or we'll talk about the circle.

[B]

I never dare.

[A]

I remember that Raymond Katzorski in front of. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do it right here.

[B]

I remember. No, I don't want to go through.

[A]

That again because it was an arm thing. Yeah, right?

[B]

It was.

[A]

Yeah, it was a whole. And oak arm thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But do you think that I remember that because you. You. I understand. Never ever, like, go out and dance. Never dance. But do you think it's odd then that you did it in front of me? I wasn't that young. I would have been between, like, seven and nine when that. Because that was at Mansfield.

[B]

Oh, and you'd be so not judgmental at that.

[A]

And that's what you like that age.

[B]

Well, you're always not judge.

[A]

Man's all at that age. But that's. But I wonder if it's because I felt. And this is actually kind of cool. It's going to make me cry. Maybe it's because there's not a lot of people you can be real around. So the moments where I got to see pieces of you that nobody else that got to see, I wonder if subconsciously they resonated or stuck in my head. Because, Raymond, I swear to God, I might have been eight right in that moment. And I can. I remember my mom's dresser. I remember where it was.

[B]

Like, was it your mom's dresser or was it.

[A]

It was in Mom's.

[B]

My mom's.

[A]

No, it wasn't in Grandma's room.

[B]

So I thought it was like the.

[A]

The big area. No.

[B]

The big mirror on top of it or something like that.

[A]

Mom did have a big mirror. Yeah. Do you think that's why?

[B]

I think, yeah. I've talked to you how every. Every waking moment is a performance for the most part. So every now and then, you gleam into who I really am.

[A]

You think every waking moment's a performance for you?

[B]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[A]

So. Oh, man. What is it gonna be?

[B]

It's exhausting.

[A]

Yeah. I feel tired for. You know, what if you just woke up from a nap?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, so to give people a little bit more context, you're probably. Let's be honest, the reason why I wanted to become a teacher.

[B]

I'm pretty good, right?

[A]

What, you. And humble. You guys wonder why I'm not humble? But you are. You are very good. And I. And I remember watching. Again, I don't know what age this was, but I remember watching you teach grade 13 physics, and you jumped off. You did something insane, like you jumped off a desk, and the kids were laughing and they were enthralled. And this is grade 13 physics. Like, most kids want to cry in grade 13 physics. Whereas this group of students, you know, you had this beautiful ability to teach them really, really hard things and important things and then have them laughing in. In the next minute. And, you know, maybe that's why they're like, okay, well, this really sucked. But wait, a joke's coming. Just. Just hold on for a second.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. It's the style that I used. You have to have a payoff. You got kids coming into a physics classroom and it's hard work. There's no doubt about it. But there's got to be something that you get out of it that makes them want to keep coming back. And it can just be maybe a feeling of superiority because you've done something not many people have. So I'll play on that. But more often than not, it just letting them see my inane sense of humor and teach. Go off on a tangent about some life story and then bring them back. It was very much like they're on a little rubber band where they stretch out and then bring them back so that I can teach them.

[A]

Do you think, like, I. Because it's very much. I like to think that's very much how I teach. And it's not like I watched you teach many, many times. But is it weird that I teach like that?

[B]

No. I think a good teacher knows that teaching is all about performance.

[A]

So you felt like you were. You always felt like you were performing, but. But you brought in a lot of your real life. So did you feel like you were really? Because I know you say, you know, if you're in this group of people, you have to perform. If you're at this kind of family function, you have to perform whatever. Did you think maybe in front of your students it was the more real of you, or do you think it's still all performance? I go, I'm exhausted.

[B]

I think it can be brutally real. When I met school teaching, so, yeah, what is that?

[A]

Can you explain that?

[B]

I'm not sure I can. In a physics classroom was where I was comfortable with all the anxiety around my life and, and I could go into that room, it would be like slipping on a comfy cardigan. Talk about what I love, you know, because that's what I think is missing in the education system today. It's almost verboten to say I love my subject. You have to say you love your kids. And I'm telling you, high school age kids are challenging and they're sometimes not very lovable at all. But to be able to go in and talk about something I love and, you know, and that enthusiasm can be contagious. So, you know, bring that into the mix. Realize, you know, that you've got to be a performer or a storyteller. Well, you don't have to let's be honest. One of the things about your book is that you were giving your advice on what. What it means to be a quality teacher. I'm not sure I'd agree with it because there's just so many different ways you can tap into students. Right. So, you know, and that's the problem. Problem. That's the concern about your book. It'll be a hard sell for teachers because teachers don't like being told.

[A]

They don't like being told what to.

[B]

Do, what to do.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's actually good. But that's actually why I. I think I'll like it. I would love for it to spark just hard discussions and big discussions about how to do different things and how. Exactly, like you said, like, how to tap into that. What. What you think the most important parts are. But I think it's funny because I think that's actually. And I should. I guess I could have said this in some sense because I think that's the beauty of it, is that there can. Can't be. And I think I said it in some contexts. There can be no objectivity in teaching. Not. Not in the way that you choose to do it, not in the application of it. Sure, there can be objectivity in the. This is wrong. But this is right. There could be some of that more so in physics maybe, than in the courses that I teach. But there can be no objectivity in the right way to teach, per se. And if there can't be any objectivity in it, that's what makes it. Because I talk about this all the time. How do you identify quality great teachers? You know, we're not making widgets. It's not like, oh, I made 50,000 last year. I want to make X amount this year. And we talk. Can't be by their grades because you've had classes that are like 90s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then 50s.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Same teacher. Same. Right.

[B]

But I've watched your video on. What is it? A hard C. I like a hard C. You know, if. If they're working hard and they're not getting. Not. Well, look, a mark of 90 means you're exceptional. And it would be nice that every student in the world thought they were exceptional intellectually and they were not all there. I don't even know. Sure, I'm. I was there.

[A]

What do you mean you don't think you were exceptional? You got straight 95 through everything.

[B]

Because I busted my hump. I worked really, really hard.

[A]

Oh, you don' that was not a natural. Natural. Exceptional. Okay.

[B]

You know, and that Comes from. That comes from dad. Right. That whole European work ethic. Work ethic and pride in a job well done. The major concern I had when I was going to retire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where would that pride come from?

[A]

How do you feel? Ray's just retired. Like, what last this. This of the year. But you've been doing a lot of supply, so.

[B]

Not a lot of supply. Enough for me to realize that I made the right decision to be done. Yeah. The world changes in education. It's cyclical. But eventually enough inane comes your way where you. Even though you love the job, you just say, I can't take it anymore. What I found when I retired, you know, my concern was what was I going to be when I retired, if not a physics teacher?

[A]

It's going to help with Angela Johnson.

[B]

Yes, definitely. What I found out is what I was going to be was happy.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

The stresses just are gone. I don't think you realize it while you're teaching.

[A]

Slow boil.

[B]

Yeah. How truly stressful it is dealing with all the things outside of the classroom and then to just have that removed. Like, I didn't think I was wired for happy. And then all of a sudden I found out what the problem was. And I don't mean it in a hugely negative way. I loved teaching. I love center stage. I love entertaining. I love sharing my love of physics. But that makes me obsolete at the same time, too.

[A]

Why? Because of how.

[B]

How, like, how centered it is around me. Oh, yeah. I would go into every PD activity and inevitably it was stop being the center, be the facilitator. And I'm not interesting. Look, teaching offered me an opportunity to feel normal. I went into physics. It was my comfort zone. None of my anxieties were there. And. And then I got to share stories and have these lovely conversations and then I'd go home and turn it all off and. And then crawl back into the shell. So I'm not saying what I was doing is good for everybody. I'm not saying it's the best way to teach. I'm just saying it worked really well for me.

[A]

So at what point do you think. So do you think a lot of the stress, like a lot of the anxiety came as expectations of teachers shifted, as public pressure shifted. You were obviously teaching during the Mike Harris cuts, and then you're teaching win, win, post everybody back. And then probably, I'm gonna guess, the biggest shift, which I've. I've kind of, I guess really has been maybe the last, I wanna say, 10 or 12 years, this push about IEPs and integrating classrooms and de streaming everything. Right. And so having multiple learning styles in the classroom. Because a lot of people will say things to me like, oh, well, you know, in. Back in the day, they had 30, 35 kids. I'm like, yeah, but they didn't have 30. They had 30 or 35 kids that could learn or that were expected to learn this way, whatever this way was in your classroom. Their job was to master this. Whereas today, teachers are very much expected to teach. If you have 30 kids, well, you're going to need 30 styles, which is.

[B]

The ultimate lie of education.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you can't be done.

[A]

It can't be done. No, no. So it can't be done until. Was that the frustrating part?

[B]

It was a conversation that I had with my administrator. Now you've gone over to the dark side, so maybe you can relate.

[A]

Private school.

[B]

No, no, no. You're an administrator now.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm also still a teacher.

[B]

Which I think is. Makes for the best.

[A]

Yeah, I, I would never. I would always want to teach.

[B]

When I started teaching, our VP would teach as well.

[A]

Administrators shouldn't be failed teachers.

[B]

Best VP I ever had.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was a conversation. And it was a student who wanted an indefinite amount of time on a test.

[A]

Oh, wow. And indefinite.

[B]

Indefinite. Yeah. And I was expected to sit there for. Into the wee hours of the evening or morning, who knows, until they had done everything they could possibly do. And. And so I. I eventually removed the test from this said person and said, that's all the time. And then I quickly got a phone call from the mom and quickly got a discussion with the dad. And the next thing you know, I'm talking to the principal and I go, okay, I don't understand. How am I supposed to physically do what you're asking me to do? And how is that going to possibly prepare them for what's coming their way? So in grade 11, I'm preparing them for grade 12, and grade 12, I'm preparing them for university physics. And the principal said, that's not your job. And I go, I'm sorry, excuse me, it's not your job to prepare the students. And I go, then what in the world is my job? And the response was to give them every opportunity to show that they have an understanding. At which point that's when I said, oh, God, I can't do it.

[A]

When was that conversation?

[B]

I think I went for another. Probably taught for another semester after that. So probably. Okay, a year and a half, two years ago, maybe two and a half Years ago.

[A]

Well, I think, yeah, you and I fundamentally agree with that, then the notion that it is there. And I joke about how you judge a teacher. And the only way, in my opinion, a high school teacher, elementary is different. The only way you judge a high school teacher is by how they then step in the world. So at my school, it's all academic. So the vast majority, 99% of my students go to university. That's their goal. So my job isn't to get them high marks. It's not to, you know, you know, alleviate any time. It's actually the opposite. I, I would put time management and late marks and all that stuff goes back into their grade. And I do that because I, I have that option. But the judgment on me is, okay, you were here with me doing politics or history. When you stepped into university and you took those courses, how well prepared did you feel? How, how much did I sort of build you up, not just for the material, but for the, the different stressors that are going to be on you when you go there? And how well did you succeed? Because that, that can be my only judgment. It can't be the 90. If it's the 90, I just hand out 90s and I say I'm a great teacher.

[B]

Well, we've had those discussions with parents. They never really go very well.

[A]

No, no, of course not. Because every parent is looking. But look at, look at the, the catastrophe that has built. You have, you have celebrities going to prison for, you know, buying their kids. Becky.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

For Felicia. Buying their kids, like SAT scores or, or pretending they're on the row, get into USC or whatever school they're trying to get into. And you think to yourself, when you have people saying university doesn't matter anymore, it feels, it can feel like. Well, that's the reason, because people have delegitimized it to a point where they're just buying whatever they can get and they're actually getting nothing out of it. Right. They're just going to get that piece of paper and say, oh, I went to usc. There's my degree.

[B]

Well, you know, for me, everything fell apart with the Harris years.

[A]

Oh, it was about time.

[B]

Mr. John Snobel. And who had to invent a. Well, how do you phrase it? We need to invent a. I don't even remember. Crisis in education so they could change it. And that popularized. Did I say that word right?

[A]

Yeah, let's pretend it was popularized.

[B]

The bashing of teachers.

[A]

So you don't think that's a great point. So the, the Harris years were I, I was in high school. So like what, nine, mid-90s on words, right? Like, because when I went to university, that's when I remember mom losing her job. So Harris was cutting all the health care, like the hospitals as well. So you don't think, you, you think that was the first moment where it became sort of a political tool?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. And then the inmates started running the asylum. Right. We are at the, the mercy of an irate parent over and over again who is confident they know what's best, despite my 38 years of experience. And that's frustrating. The kids are great. I can't criticize the kids. High school age kids, teenagers are going to be teenagers. They're going to try to look for shortcuts and not have to work too hard about it. It's just that when the, you know, they want to do this much work and they want to get this much mark, and that's fine, I can deal with that and get them through and. But when the parents buy into that they need to do this much work to get that much result, then there's wrong anyways, things go badly quickly.

[A]

Well, yeah, but what do we, at that point? What are you teaching? So if you're just. Because again, it goes back to the original. They just want the mark for the sake of the mark.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, I, I just recently interviewed a kid who wants to be a pilot. Like that's his dream, right? And I said, oh, well, we're into some physics then, right? And he's like, yeah, he's like, but I'm going to tell you, that's my dream. But math's hard. And I went, okay. And right away I started to sweat because I'm like, oh God, he's not good at, like, it's not natural. But he wants this. And he goes, this is what this kid says to me. He goes, so he's only in grade 10, going grade 11. He says, so I didn't do great in grade 10 math. And I'm here, I'm thinking, sitting in this interview because it's a private school, right, that somebody's going to say, but don't worry, you'll do good with him in grade 11, whatever. Not what happened at all. He goes, so what I would like to do is Here, redo grade 10 math first semester so I can feel confident. So I know that basis because I know it's a hard math. And then neck the following semester I'll do a grade 11 and I'll do that. Until I'm good enough at math. It almost made me cry. Until I'm good enough at math to then do physics. Now I got to do physics a couple times. Okay. Because he wants to. There. There is something very, you know, beautiful about him wanting to attain and in my opinion, whether, you know, however many chances it takes, he. The kid's gonna be a freaking pilot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If in grade 10, you don't care about redoing math 10. Ah, you're gonna be good.

[B]

No, no, that's it. It makes complete sense. You know, if we could just bottle that and have each student consume it.

[A]

I think we're onto something, I think, for. Yeah. So I think it happened during Mike Harris, and I think what happened during Mike Harris, funnily enough, sometimes I wonder what comes first. The horse of the cart. But he wanted to find a way to get them through quick.

[B]

Well, it saves money.

[A]

Sure. Is he the one that got rid of 13? I can't remember. So that would have been 2002.

[B]

Don't know. It's been a while.

[A]

It's a great question. Somebody got rid of. So in Ontario, we used to have grade 13, which was obviously different than every other province, but we could also.

[B]

Get a degree with three years at university.

[A]

Right. Is that. Was that only Ontario then?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Okay. So every other. Oh, that's interesting. By the time I started teaching, I taught one year of the double cohort year, and then it was just grade 12. So they want to get them through quickly because anytime you have to repeat a course in the public system, you're costing me money.

[B]

That's why they want the marks.

[A]

They want them out. So the government lowers the bar. Oh, definitely lowers the bar. Lowers the expectation, allows students to get.

[B]

More success, sells that to the public, that they're improving our education system because they've got some stats to say more.

[A]

People are getting their into university, they're getting higher marks. Look at us go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now. Well, now it's a big problem because I have a lot of students. Even when Rebecca went to university and she would tell me about how they used to take quizzes, and she. Did she ever tell you they're like, online quiz. Online quizzes. But they do it as a group. And I'm like, what do you mean you do it as a group? Well, you couldn't have your computer facing anybody else. So they'd sit in a circle, so their monitor was facing everyone everywhere. And then they would collectively get, you know, 100 or whatever marks they got. It was A significant chunk of their mark. I want to say like 25%.

[B]

There was always that capability, though, because I remember it in university. Physics was hard. Physics was really hard. You know, first day of class, teaching physics to my students, I write physicses. Put a blank there, period. And I go, fill in the blank.

[A]

Physics is fun.

[B]

And they write what they think the definition is. And I go, I collect them all. I read all 30 of them. And I go, you're all wrong. And I write the word hard. And I go, here's our starting point. And now let's have some fun. But. But at university, I remember that there was always cliquey groups. And in math and sciences, quite often there was a weekly assignment worth 10%.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so you would bust your hump and these kids would go, okay, I'll. I'll do number one. You work on number two. You work on numbers three, four, five, six. And we'll all get back together and we'll share each other's answers. And that's great if you're a social creature, but I was not a social creature. So you kept trying. I kept trying to do it all myself. And so that was really quite stressful. And so as a result, people, I think, far less capable had far more success. Look at. There's so many gifts people have that they can offer. And I did not have that gift of.

[A]

But if you're just doing number one, I'm doing number two. We got somebody else doing number three.

[B]

State the obvious here.

[A]

Well, it seems like you need to.

[B]

Know all of them to do the test.

[A]

Do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so what? I just try to memorize your number one, which is the most ridiculous. First of all, physics, you can't really do that, but it's the most ridiculous application of that. So that's interesting to know that it was going on way back then with the. So I'm assuming they would just do that kind of without. It's not like the professor would be like, sure, go ahead, do this in groups.

[B]

Or would he assume no one's monitoring what you're doing? Let's be honest.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

You'd maybe have two hours of lectures and then maybe another each week and then tutorial.

[A]

Do you think, though, it would become apparent in the tests and exams they bell the marks? Oh, Jesus.

[B]

Right. I. What I found.

[A]

How long have they been bell curving marks? Maybe that's the start of the issue.

[B]

See, university is just a completely different creature today. You don't not. Yeah, well, no, all the time. Yeah. In high school it's. You don't have in there typically strong communicators. These are people who thrived at school, never really understood why anyone would have problems. And now you put them. Yeah. And then you put them at the front of a classroom. I remember in first year algebra raising my hand in the classroom of 350 students, looking at the board and going, okay, I don't understand how you went from lines four to line five. And the professor turned and looked and turned back to me and said, proof is clear. And I went, thank you. He had no idea why I would have a problem. Now, I had some wonderful professors, so don't get me wrong. But, you know, isn't that also typical in the teaching profession? We all like to criticize the, the weak people that we had.

[A]

Proof is clear. Well, it's clear, but it's not just the weak, but the. If he, if he would have said, it's not the weak that I criticize, because I would absolutely criticize that professor. A strong professor, even if you're not perfect, would have said, I don't know. I don't know how else to explain that step to you. That's a strong person with, who is intelligent, who doesn't know everything that. So I have no problems criticizing the ass who says, proof is clear because he doesn't know how to explain it any differently. Now, having said that, I don't find that most of my professors were teachers. I think there might be a big difference between a teacher and a professor.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Even for the social sciences.

[B]

Yeah. But let's listen. What makes you a teacher, though? Is it teachers? College?

[A]

No. God, no. That made me less intelligent.

[B]

And what makes a good teacher? Is it innate or is it something that is. I've sat with teachers and they would turn to me and go, what do these students want me to do? Entertain them. And I'm polite inside my head. I'm going, yes, of course. That's what they want you to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'll just roll my eyes with them because I didn't want to point out to them that, okay, you're missing, I think, a key aspect of what.

[A]

But see, you just don't want to be judgmental.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I don't mind being judgmental. I don't. I don't mind saying to somebody, well, yeah, because they're children. So children are looking. And plus all of the insecurities we feel as adults, times them by about 700. That's what they feel. So for them to ask a question it's like I, I there some years it takes me forever to find out who's getting it and who's not getting it. Because sometimes the kids that present with the most confidence know nothing and go home and are in tears at night because of something that I taught them that they didn't understand. It's very, very hard.

[B]

Yeah, but there isn't a more insecure group than a grade 10 student. Oh, see, grade nines, at least they're so young.

[A]

I know, but they're, they come into.

[B]

High school and it's all so new and they're frightened.

[A]

Maybe that's different.

[B]

Fear is a great motivator. There's something that's antiquated as well. Grade tens of being through one year, they're going, hey, this is no big deal, I have to work that.

[A]

And they get hit with that math class that everybody hates now.

[B]

Well, it's usually grade 11 where they at club.

[A]

I thought it kind of shifted down a little bit. It's not really functions 11 anymore. I thought grade 10 math.

[B]

Well right now grade 9 is destreamed, right? So no one's being really pushed at all.

[A]

But I think, yeah, I think entertaining is important. But I think learning how to do scary things. And it's funny that you say that. You're right. Kids that are really good at school, right, they never learn. Sometimes like let's say, whether it's a physics or a history, they're, they're getting their 97s pretty easily and they're just moving on with their day. Maybe they don't play volleyball or they don't do this or they don't do that. Maybe they do because I know some kids that do a lot. But what I find funny is we let them choose their path real early. Meaning you can drop everything. You're not good at something, just drop it, right? And, and so what that allows is the kids that are really good in the core courses that we've decided are essential. Shakespeare for the eighth time, those kids get elevated, right? Whereas the kid that's like, like I watch kids on the computers now and I'm like, I wouldn't even, I would have no idea.

[B]

They don't have fear, right?

[A]

But if you put, if you put that same kid in a phys ed class, if you put that same kid sometimes in an English class class or even a history class, you see it differently. Now the funny part about the way our system is set up is we let everybody really like focus on what they want to do because they have Such smoke. Especially without the 13. They have short time to do it, to go to university. You know what I mean? So you're going to do all math and sciences. Cool. You go stand in that line. You're going to do all history. You go stand in that line. And then to the negation of everything else. So they're only told and encouraged to do what they're already good at and.

[B]

Then add to the mix parents encouraging them to avoid challenging courses so that they can pad their average and then.

[A]

Get into university, because that's what universities are looking, which I think is the stupidest thing in universities.

[B]

Am I allowed to shout out to a particular student a hundred percent, Ryan LaPlante.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Thank goodness you were there. Ryan was a student who went on, I think if you Google him, I think he's an actor, so I think it's commercials and things of that nature. He was going to go on to university so that he could teach drama if things didn't work through. So I don't know where you are at this point in time, but he took physics with me, grade 11 and grade 12, and he didn't need them.

[A]

He wanted to go into drama. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And. And I remember we had something called character and education awards, and so I nominated him and then learned that when you nominate the student and they get selected, you have to go and speak to them or speak for them or. That's not my cup of tea. And. And I remember getting that. That opportunity to speak into a. A group of parents, proud parents and their kids, because they're all being. Being highlighted. Yes. And. And point out the. My concern over how parents will discourage kids from taking something challenging like a physics course, especially if they don't need it. I can't tell you how many times I hear, yeah, I'm going to drop physics. I don't need it. Once they realize they had to work.

[A]

They say the same thing. Amoeba.

[B]

Okay. About physics, about politics. Oh, that's weird. Anyway, so I got to talk and I got to criticize parents. And the room was full of, oh, it was just great. And then I had people afterwards come up to me and go, whoa, that was really brave. And I went, well, they're gonna give me the form. I'm gonna take it.

[A]

Dude, you gave them the microphone. What are you gonna do? But I think.

[B]

But it would see, because now, because it used to be the logo for our education, for our county was commit to character. And so he had performed all these different characters on stage So I kind of brought that into the speech. And speaking of character, here's a person who, despite not needing physics, busted his hump and did well at it. And then it changed to student success. So the new logo is everyone has to be successful.

[A]

It just doesn't make sense. What would have made. And again, that's a. In my opinion, it's all money. It isn't about it has never been and isn't about now. You can spin it so you can make it seem like you. You care about. If you truly care about a person or a student, you don't want to hand them something and a pat on the head when they haven't earned it. You want to help them earn it and whatever that takes. Right. So if. If they were really serious about education in this province or in many provinces in the whole North America, by the sounds of it, they would hire specialized teachers more so they would have more extra help sessions. They would. They would encourage students to stay in classes that were a little bit more difficult. We'd have more of a clear line rather than having stand like the literacy test, for the love of God, which by the way, has gotten so easy over the course. Like, it's gotten easier.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Because they need to keep selling the lie that they're doing a better and better job.

[A]

Absolutely asinine. But to make somebody a good English student or a better English student. Right. Is difficult. Somebody formed with dyslexia, for example. Right. I have kids that come to me. I'm sure you've had. You've taught kids with dyslexia, and they'll say, do you have any strategies? I'm like, I mean, I have ideas. I go, but really, that's a really hard thing to battle and to. And to live with. Because what I understand, you don't really ever kind of overcome it. It's always a rewiring in your brain that you always sort of mitigate. I go, you need somebody amazing for that. Why on earth every single school doesn't have that person is beyond me. But what do we do? Oh, just give them the audiobook. What? Give them the audiobook. That's ridiculous. But I also think it's true of every course. Like you are. And. And people have seen a lot of your art actually, at. But yeah. On different videos. And I always found it interesting that there are courses out there where we just give it for your effort. You get a grade for your effort, and then other courses you get a grade for the right answer.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. I found that at university, no one gives a rat's ass, excuse my language. About how hard you work. They just are looking at the results. That's what the professors were saying until I took a course in Polish.

[A]

How hard was that?

[B]

Oh, it was a nightmare. I thought somehow, maybe genetically, I was programmed to speak Polish.

[A]

Dad's Polish.

[B]

Never. Dad never spoke Polish in the house. Right? Because mom ruled the house with her iron fist. That's grammar, Ruby. I didn't find out until I took the Polish course that I had mispronounced my last name for all my life.

[A]

It's supposed to be a ska, right?

[B]

No, that's if you're a female.

[A]

Oh, so Grandma should have been Kadziorska.

[B]

No, Konjorski and Konjorska.

[A]

We've been saying Kadziorski for ever.

[B]

So I go to the class, and it's a small classroom. You can't hide, right? It was like seven students. And I'm going, oh, this doesn't look good. And we introduce ourselves, and I go, okay, I'm Ray Kadziorski. And she goes, no, your name.

[A]

You're so bad at this course. You don't have your name right.

[B]

I'm pretty sure that is true. And then she explains to me that the A is a French kind of sound and the dzi is a J sound. And she goes, your name's Konjorski. And I went, oh. And then phoned dad that night. Dad, how do you really say her name? And he goes, konjorski. And I went, well, I'm 23. And he goes, oh, it's your mom. She wanted to pronounce the way it was spelled.

[A]

Oh, Grandma.

[B]

And I went, oh, there's the dynamic.

[A]

Grandma was so powerful that she changed the family's last name. At least she took his last name. What does he want? Like, really, in all fairness, he could have been a Cooper.

[B]

Cooper. What a great. I could be Ray Cooper. Raymond Cooper. That would have been sweet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But get back on track. I took this. This. This Polish course, and I busted my hump, and I got a really good mark, and I can't speak any Polish whatsoever to this day, but she recognized that hard work, and I got credit for it. So that was delightful to realize that that opportunity was still out there, because I didn't think it was something that was available at university.

[A]

But you know why I think it should be still out here out there? And here's why? Because as soon as you step out of a space that is just marking you on right or wrong, yes or no, clear structure or not, you step out into the real world. And the real world, how you struggle and how you choose to struggle and how hard you work is going to be a much bigger test than what the grade is on the final exam. Right. Because you're going to get a bunch of wrong answers in real life. Actually probably more wrong than right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And then how you struggle, that's the test. So as soon as they made, and I don't remember what's happened, but as soon as they made those, like, learning skills, not a part of the mark, and they said, well, you're not going to take off late marks. You're not going to do this. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not memorizing The War of 1812, you know, problem like battles, that's really essential. It's. It's actually the time management. It's how much, how much do you take personal accountability? How do all of these things, that's.

[B]

What you carry with you the rest of your life. It's not going to be Newton's third. Yeah, it would be Newton's third law firm.

[A]

Fine.

[B]

But there's got to be a law in physics that's not all that important.

[A]

Worked the Apple Law. I think they denied gravity on Joe Rogan the other day. Oh, and the earth is flat. But I think. But there it is. There it is. Because then you become very aw. And this is the sort of full circle to what. How we started. Because then you become very aware of how subjective education is in. In a lot of ways. And that's okay. It. I don't think this notion of objectivity of here's your. Even a test. Right. The way that I give you a test is already subjective because I've decided the best way to test your intelligence or your capacity or your application skills or whatever. And I've decided nine times out of 10, it's in this piece of paper that I'm going to give you for two hours.

[B]

Yeah, but let's not underestimate her. Undervalue that piece of paper.

[A]

I don't have to undervalue it, but I would say that there are many other transferable ways to test your knowledge and your capacity that are better in the real world than sitting down and writing a paper, for example, you know, if, if I can use politics, but obviously better than a math course. But even in, in the realm of physics, because so much of it is. I don't want to Say a team effort. But there's a lot of that. The, the nature of that. The way you can explain.

[B]

Collegial approach.

[A]

Yeah. The way you can explain yourself in a room. The way that you can have a conversation. The way that you can take nuance of an issue and go, okay, but here's why the difference is that math teacher that said, what did he say? The proof is there. What does he ask? What's his name? Let's give him a shout.

[B]

Proof is clear.

[A]

Proof is clear. The way that that ass said proof is clear versus somebody being able to stand at that board and either a. Explaining in a different way. Because in my opinion that is what a teacher is. I think a teacher fundamentally is. Has the capacity to go down many roads to get to the same end to try to make other people understand that. Wouldn't believe, wouldn't understand it prior. But be able to do that or heaven frigging help. I say I have no idea. I have no idea. Other than that's the way I've always done it. Because that's an interesting conversation too.

[B]

Yeah. But you speak, forgive me, with the naivete of somebody who teaches in the private sector to class.

[A]

Thousand percent small class sizes. Yes. Which is the number one failure of the public system, in my opinion.

[B]

Well, it costs money, doesn't it?

[A]

Then it comes right back down to that. How much money are we willing to, to spend? But I don't think we would disagree in saying smaller class sizes. And by the way, I think there is a minimum class size too. Everybody else talks about a maximum.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

I, I think sometimes class sizes can get too small and the dynamic doesn't work anymore because kids, teens, and I'm mostly speaking about teens, they, they can't always have, they, they shouldn't always have adult conversations about stuff. Right. Like they should make a stupid joke about, about history or they should make a pass a note here, try to use their phone or whatever. Because that social dynamic is about their development. So I think sometimes there's, you know, I work at a small school. There's not like, you know, in, when I went to high school, there's like tables of clicks, you know, and we talk about the negative implications of that. But then there's also a problem when there's no tables of cliques and you're either, you either feel in the school or outside of the school. That's, that's a different issue.

[B]

Yep. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you know, if you want to get insight into your students and what they've picked up and what they understand. Nothing wrong with the test. Nothing wrong.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

And so many other opportunities would require smaller class sizes.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And you know, and there's nothing wrong with memory and memorizing. If you're going to teach or learn physics, you need to memorize certain components. Yeah. Certain things. So that they're at your beck and call when you need to now apply it to the problem that's placed in front of you. Without that memory work. And this is how things have changed over my career. They would not even memorize the key formulas. They would try and reteach themselves during the test. And that's why they could never finish the test.

[A]

Right. So it wasn't. How long do you take? It was you didn't do it, you didn't study properly and prepare properly, therefore you're not. Yeah. And that's a hard. Then you're, you're obligated. Well, I always thought it funny because I can't really compare it to all the formulas. But even something as simple as timetables, the amount of kids that don't have to memorize a timetable, no wonder it's taking them a crapload of time to do a, let's say a factoring. Just something as simple as factoring. If you don't know your times tables and you're having to either sit down and like just test it out on a calculator 317 times, it's taking you way longer to do because foundationally, you don't have what it needs to sort of skip that step of playing around and then move on to something else.

[B]

Well, yes, and it has to do with the number sense too. But the story I would tell my students about Rebecca, you know, much I love that girl. She, she. When she was a baby, you get that puzzle, that original puzzles, you know, the wooden ones with the little pegs, you know, there's five things to put in there. Circus themed or something like that. And for the life of her, she couldn't do it. And I went, oh, no, she has no spatial ability. And then I would take a puzzle and there'd be 20 pieces and I'd leave one piece out. And I go, okay, put that last piece in. And it would take her 20 temps to Orient it. She could just not look at it, orient it and place it in. And I went, oh, God, she's gonna be terrible at math.

[A]

Can you see math? I've always under. Everybody's always says spatial intelligence is math. I get it. I get, I, I get the Theoretically. But in my head, I'm like, does that mean you see math in, like, groupings or distribution or. Heaven helped me. Graphs. I never understood any of the graphs I've ever done.

[B]

Spatial ability helps you to go beyond just blindly memorizing, following.

[A]

That's how I did it. Yeah. That's what I did. That's why I was only good till first year university.

[B]

And being good at math is being good at seeing patterns. And we're not all programmed to see patterns quickly. That's why in math, they give you 32 questions that are basically the same question over and over again. It alienates some people. The good students will do 10. Well, the good students will do five of them and go, this is all the same. And then they'll probably do another five just on the calculators, not writing it down, and can check in to see if they're right. And they go, I've got it. But they're the ones who see the patterns quickly. The ones who don't see the patterns have to do all 32 questions. The problem is they don't want to. They don't. They give up before they see the pattern. So at age 23, Becca's working at.

[A]

Could have been a different chapter.

[B]

Could have been a Canadian Tire. She's working at Canadian Tire, and she phones me, dad, I can make change. And I went, awesome, honey. And in my head, I'm going, you're 23. This is a good thing. But a little late.

[A]

P.S. rebecca's incredibly successful executive at a major company.

[B]

She's pretty remarkable.

[A]

She is. But all of those skills that they don't ask her to count anything.

[B]

But the takeaway from that is, at the till, she had to keep doing it and doing it and doing it. She could not give up. And eventually she saw the pattern and it clicked. So you know that math is hard for a lot of students, and not everyone is willing to put in the time to see that pattern into mastery.

[A]

Do you think math, more so than English, is difficult?

[B]

Oh, God, no. English was a nightmare for me.

[A]

Because I don't. Yeah, because now you're saying it, it's like, you know, but here's what I do think math, you really get hit over the head with. You're right, you're wrong. Whereas English, you're like, oh, such a good try. That's a nice poem.

[B]

I could never understand how to get better at English.

[A]

Do you see what I'm. Because you never saw the pattern. I guarantee there's still a pattern there. You just Aren't aware of what it is. No, I'm dead serious.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, no, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. So it's like. And again, this is why the sciences and maths, because they seem. They are more so objective. Right. Where everything else has this different aspect to it, where it's. There's an effort base. There's. I can see what you were getting at. I could. Right. So I can give that to you. I actually think. And this is hysterical because most. Most kids hate. You know, they grow up and they hate math. And usually it's around grade 10.

[B]

Either love it or you hate it. And.

[A]

And I usually, when I listen to them and I say, why do you hate math so much? Like, you haven't even started, really. When I was in grade three. Swear to God, whatever goes on in grade three, it ain't good. Whatever happens in grade three. I've heard more stories, but it's something that happened that told them that they're never ever going to see the pattern or they're never ever going. And they. Now they just.

[B]

Was it their first test?

[A]

I don't know what happens in grade.

[B]

Three because I know in grade four I wrote my very first test in my entire career of, you know, never had a test at school. We'd go in and we do stuff, but we'd never get a test where you had to sit by yourself, answer questions, hand it in and get it marked. And it was. It was math. And the teacher used my answers to take it up. And that's all it took for me to invest the rest of my existence into school.

[A]

This whole world.

[B]

It was. It was, I think, felt so special.

[A]

When you are in grade four, I don't have much memory of myself at that age, but maybe you don't, because I know that you've talked a lot about social anxiety and different kinds of anxieties that you have you. I've already spoken about it in this podcast. Did you have that in grade four?

[B]

No.

[A]

When did that happen?

[B]

Puberty maybe. Like, you know, all the stuff I like to collect, it's all stuff from.

[A]

I could probably grab some of it right now.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

I don't really have anything down here.

[B]

Stuff that I had.

[A]

When you're a kid.

[B]

When I was a kid. Wonder why during a time where I wasn't constantly in a state of fear. And so I get that comfort. And then I also found out that nostalgia, like nostalgic songs. I live in the 70s in my music, they trigger the same. My apologies to my biology People out there, hormones, same chemical response as when a woman breastfeeds. And it's a soothing experience. So. So I think when I walk into my room with all of my stuff from if a time when I remember not being frightened, it is soothing.

[A]

So you think. You think that that was disrupted when you hit puberty?

[B]

When I remember.

[A]

Do you think.

[B]

Because I didn't know what the hell was going on until.

[A]

Yeah. You just look back on it now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But do you. Or. Or do you think it's because you're putting so much because like, you gotta know, Ray got 95 or he was a failure. So do you think it was because you always put that on yourself? I. I can't imagine grandma or grandma.

[B]

No pressure from my parents at all.

[A]

So you always put such high pressure. And then if you put that high pressure and then going through, you know, puberty and all the awkwardness and everything everybody else goes through, do you think those two were coupled? And then what made you. You're always chasing your grade four teacher, showing your paper. I don't know.

[B]

I never chased my grade four teacher. She used mine.

[A]

No, the memory of your. That's the thing you're trying to replicate for the rest of your life.

[B]

I.

[A]

Because I find this interesting because kids talk about anxiety all the time now, right? You got. You never would have named it.

[B]

I. I would have. No. I would never have been able to name it back then. But it made me productive. When something was assigned, I didn't procrastinate. I needed to get that monkey off my back as quickly as possible. I needed. I sat down, I worked on it. And if so if I got an essay like I walk into English class. Ball of anxiety. God.

[A]

Don't like grade nine again.

[B]

Yeah, grade eight English.

[A]

Are you feeling that way? Grade seven?

[B]

Well, grade. What happened in grade eight English was.

[A]

They didn't use his.

[B]

They streamed us right. Bluebirds, blackbirds, canaries. I don't know what the terminology was.

[A]

Called you different birds.

[B]

They gave me a bird. And I wasn't an idiot. I knew that my bird group was not the best. So what did I do? I busted my hump and I moved up to the better bird group.

[A]

Anna talk about her school. It was like purple, orange, yellow. She's like, my mom called the fight to get me into the higher color and they put me in the higher color. And by two months in, I was back down to the lower color. But that's hysterical again.

[B]

So with the anxiety, something was assigned. I'd start working on it right away. If I had that 10 days to do the essay, I would spend each and every day doing it. And of course I got really good marks as a result. So I took that chemical imbalance and made it.

[A]

I don't even know if that. But I don't even know if that's what it was, Ray, because you're saying there was a moment. You were in grade seven English, you were fine. Grade eight English, they made you a canary and all of a sudden everything went off. Now this is the interesting conversation to have because I know you and I don't. It's not like we're nice and soft and cuddly about telling kids, okay, well you're, you're here or you're here. But. But streaming a kid in grade eight gave you a level of anxiety and stress and a level of anxiety for too. But, yeah, but when you describe, when you just described. You're a big ball of stress. You shouldn't feel that way entering into any sort of thing without a significant cause. And your cause was simply being categorized by birds?

[B]

No, no, my cause was chemical. Well, after puberty there was something going on there. Hey, in grade seven I was with the social group. I was so in the group. And then grade eight, yeah, that's when things separated. By the time I got to high school I was very much keep to myself, concentrate on the school. Didn't enjoy high school. It was a lot of hard work. University even more so. Hated that stuff. What I found was interesting. You know I have the two stepsons, right. So. And Linda was getting child support. That's my wife. And so when they became 18, I guess there was no longer that. And so all of a sudden things became more expensive and as I'm sitting there playing civilization on the computer, Linda walks in and goes there's got to be something you could be doing with your time better than this. And I turned her and I went damn you the hell.

[A]

Because that's what I don't. That was your thing. That was your.

[B]

I only had three years of university because.

[A]

Oh, right, right.

[B]

So then I went back online and I did my fourth year, fourth year.

[A]

And remember all your post its and.

[B]

And it was a wonderful experience because at university there's just too much work coming your way and you just can't master it. And that left me that's constantly anxious. But when I did these other courses I could start and I could finish any time I wanted and so I can invest as much time as I wanted and mastered it. Got the Marks that I remember getting and just reaffirming that, yeah, I'm pretty good at this.

[A]

I'm about to make a comparison you're not going to like.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

You just described why that kid wants all the time in the world to write that test. That's the same thing. Now, do I understand objectively, it doesn't work the same way. Yes, but what you're saying is you want to be able to master it, and until you can master it, whether or not that's healthy, which is a whole different podcast, I don't know. But you want to be able to master it, and if given enough time, you had the capacity to do so. And maybe not that kid.

[B]

No, no, no. I cut you off because I'd invest that time up front. And then I walk in and I do the test. Yeah, but you're still writing the test was fun. Yeah, but preparing for the test was a night.

[A]

You still think. And we do disagree on this because you still think the sit down, be quiet, and take that test for two hours is the be all and end all. And I just don't. Again, for math, it's a little bit different because it's a lot of it. Yeah, it's not. But even in a course like physics, right, to be a real physicist, you're. You're up making mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake. There is no end. There was a guy on TikTok who, when he teaches about quantum mechanics or whatever, which is like, I guess, so incredibly hard. Is that. Am I getting that word right?

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

The first thing he says is, okay. He goes, listen, everybody. Nobody knows what they're doing in this field. Nobody. We're all stupid. So I'm going to give you information so you can feel equally stupid to me, so you can know this.

[B]

That would have been liberating to hear those words, but.

[A]

And he was so good. And the whole class laughs. He goes, so just so you know, you're never going to understand it. But also, so you know, I've been teaching for 45 years, and I still don't. So we're all in that kind of same boat, because that's not playing to a test. There will be tests, I'm assuming, in his class. But what he's saying is that that kind of theoretical. That act of. Of not. Not replicating what's been done, but trying to decide what needs to still be done is totally different.

[B]

But I think you're misinterpreting how. How the tests work. Like in physics, you write a question or solve a problem, it's not worth one.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand.

[B]

Several marks. Right. And if you don't get the right answer. Yeah, that's a chore for the teacher because now we got to go through and find out what logic was accurate in there. So they're getting marks for that. So it's not like.

[A]

Do they mark that way in physics and university though, that you get a Scantron sheet? Yeah, maybe when you get old, like later on. There's no way first year physics there.

[B]

Is there a. I think what they do is if you get the right answer, they assume everything is perfect and they don't look at it.

[A]

I don't think that's right.

[B]

No, I agree completely. Oh my God. My first test, physics test, 10 multiple choice questions, two hours. I think I scored worse than a chimpanzee would have. And I got scholarships. It was the most demoralizing experience of my life.

[A]

If you get the right answer, they assume all. Guys, that might be the worst metaphor for life. If you get the right answer. We're assuming your logic is sound. I feel physically uncomfortable. Is that.

[B]

It's how they do those. You know, how they do math competitions.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's a physics competition. I don't want to specifically say what it is, but I'm confident to the physics competition. But they will only look at your written responses if you're in the elitist group that got enough of the right answers.

[A]

I just hate all of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is that just lazy? Because numbers wise, is that what we're doing? We're just quickly just differentiating.

[B]

Well, that and the fact that it is the kind of black and white nature of science. You know, there is a right and wrong.

[A]

That's hilarious because what you're stipulating is it's not the black and white. It's actually quite the opposite. There's so many flipping shades, so many shades of gray. Okay, what do you hate about the way that in my book the most about when I talk about teaching? Because by the way, I think we just. I think we just agree. Read on the fundamentals of education and of teaching. What do you mean sports? You can't disagree with sports. That's important.

[B]

I think you gave the impression that sports somehow makes one.

[A]

Makes me not one.

[B]

Makes people somehow acquire work ethic or drive. And I think it's just another opportunity. Opportunity to show and showcase people who have work ethic, ethic and drive. I don't think it promotes it. I think it Just gives people another opportunity. So I think it's put on a pedestal.

[A]

Yeah, well, it did, but it did for me.

[B]

No, it gave you an opportunity to take your drive and focus it on something.

[A]

But I didn't have the drive until I was given the opportunity. Not in sport, not in. Not in volleyball, I'm telling you right now. There was something about being on that team in that time that. That made me. That made me say. And not nothing leading up to that, because here's the problem. It all athletics came kind of naturally. I was a good baseball player. I. I was good skier. Right. So all of that came naturally. I was not very good at basketball, but, you know, you bully through in volleyball in the younger years, I was decent enough to be on the starting six. Right. And so when I didn't think I was going to make the team, that I saw as being sort of the pinnacle of something. And maybe in that moment, it would have been popularity or it would have been, you know, some sort of stardom in high school. I thought I was never going to be there. And the where I had work ethic wasn't volleyball, it was rugby. And the only reason I had it in rugby was because everybody sucked because we didn't know the game. It was the first year that we had rugby at Anderson. And so what I understood of it is go really hard, go really fast, hold on to the ball. And there was something pure about that. And so that's what I did before I got hurt. You know, when you get hurt, you're like, maybe I'll go so hard next time. But so I learned. And somebody watched me do that and then said, give her a go over here. So I don't think. I think I had elements of that.

[B]

You were a blackbird and you wanted to become a blue bird.

[A]

Was that higher?

[B]

I think that's.

[A]

The Bluebirds are the highest.

[B]

I think it was Bluebirds. I don't want to.

[A]

I find it slightly racist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's. And. And the thing about that team is I was never, till the day I was done, the best player in the team. Never. Never. But I do think I was a great leader. And I think that's something I. When. So when I say people should do sports, I'm not saying do team sports. Sports all the time, but I do think there's an element, there's a socialization. You. You didn't do it. But I think there's a socialized element or socialization element of. Of relying on other people in a instant way. Meaning Whatever sport I'm playing, for the most part, sometimes baseball, you can get in your head. But rugby and ball, it's like you're either in it or. Or you're getting hit by something so you don't have all that anxiety, all that overthinking, all that stuff that maybe could have plagued somebody, you know, any given Sunday, now all of a sudden can't because you don't have space for it. And I would probably argue the same is true if you're into music, which I've never been able to do. Right. But if you're writing music or if you're playing an instrument or if you know, whatever you're doing, I have a feeling that when that part of your brain is tuned in, that's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what you're doing. And so I think we do, kids, a real injustice, like incredible injustice, when we say, oh, you only have to take grade nine gym. You never have to take music again. Oh, you can't draw. Don't ever take art again because you're losing pieces.

[B]

Yes. You need all those opportunities so that you can find that drive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And once you've done it with something, you can apply it to everything.

[A]

Yeah. What? Yeah, that's true. And that's why I've always thought that the best teachers. And again, generalization. But I think I'm pretty right. Weren't always the best natural students.

[B]

Oh, no, no. Yeah. No. If you've struggled, you can understand where your students.

[A]

And the same with athletics. The best coaches are not like Wayne Gretzky. He's not a. I don't think he's a good hockey goal. I think he's proven he's not. Why? Because he could just do it, you know, Beethoven couldn't have taught. He just played. You don't. You don't. You can't teach that kind of innate genius, whether it's, you know, in physics or on the basketball court or, you know, doing whatever kind of endeavor. You don't. You can't teach that. I think you just are so.

[B]

But I think we all need something to excel at. And if your thing is sports, great. I just think it's weighted heavily, like 100 sports people in school elevated by. We call it buy ins, as opposed to buyouts.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

And everyone comes and they cheer you on and. And then there's those announcements in the morning where they talk about all the individual accomplishments for everybody on the team, which just gets my goat, because it's a team, so you shouldn't be talking individual. And I want to go in there and say, okay, yeah. Well, in physics class, we had an awesome exam test.

[A]

But don't you think.

[B]

Yeah, Billy down there came in hard at the end.

[A]

What was the kid's name that you gave a shout out?

[B]

Ryan Laplande.

[A]

There we go. Ryan, we're gonna give a second shout out, but you just said something quite intelligent because it's like, you don't take away the. The accolades of the athletes. You. I want the elevator accolades of every other student in every capacity. Somebody that can paint. I've had students that have sat down and dropped. Drawn, like a face off. Off, like a random picture. I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, oh, well, I was done my thing, so I'm just. I'm like, what have you created here? Right? We need to figure out how to elevate all of those things. Because you're right. Maybe that's the thing. That's the moment they go, holy crap, I am special. I have something special. Because I know this sounds cheesy, but I still believe most. If everybody has something beautiful and special that they can do, if we can elevate that, then maybe you can give enough confidence to say, okay, cool, but can you try a little harder to do my politics paper?

[B]

And that makes sense. As opposed to the. If you work hard enough, you can do anything.

[A]

No, if you work hard.

[B]

Sorry. There's a lot of things I could never do.

[A]

I like this. If you work hard enough, you will get better at things. That's it. That's all I can promise you. You're going to suck a little less than you did yesterday. Right? I like it. Well, thank you so much, Ray. Is there any words of wisdom that you want to leave our viewers? We didn't even talk about the circle, but you don't even remember teaching me how to draw.

[B]

That was an oval.

[A]

It was an oval.

[B]

Whatever you said. I said something intelligent. I say a lot of intelligent things. I don't like the fact that you singled it out as one thing.

[A]

Oh, I was just pointing it out. Kadziorski. I'm not demoting your bird or anything. All right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Thank you guys for hanging out. I will see you next Tuesday. Same bat time, same bat. Channel dismissed.