← Unlearn16: Class is in Session
Loading summary
Transcript129 lines
- [00:03]
A
Classes in session. Hey, everybody, and welcome to Unlearn 16. Class is in session, guys. I don't even know how this happens to me. I must have horseshoes hidden in places I'm not aware of. I don't feel uncomfortable when I sit down, so it's not there. Today I have Arlene Dickinson right here sitting in front of me. Actually, you're stone throws away because you're in Toronto right now, aren't you?
- [00:27]
B
I am, yes.
- [00:28]
A
You know, and she has been incredibly gracious and lovely to come onto my podcast. Arlene, how are you doing today? I'm sorry for the hardship to get into the Zencaster platform.
- [00:39]
B
I think it was. What did they say? It's a user issue, not a technical issue. It was a user. First of all, John, the privilege is mine. You have been making me laugh hysterically. You are so, not just funny, but insightful and articulate and it's a pleasure. I, I, I'm so. One of the things I am grateful for about social media, and there's maybe just a very few fewer and fewer things I'm grateful for, but it's finding people like you and connecting to people like you and, and finding out that, you know, great Canadians are out there doing great things. So, yeah, it's my, it's my pleasure.
- [01:19]
A
Listen, I think there'll be more great things on social media the more, the more, the louder people like us get. Yeah, I, honestly, I, I truly believe that I've spent so much time and, and kind of accidentally on social media, you know, during COVID and then now understanding that rage, farming and hate and all of that stuff just gets pushed, but it only can get pushed unless up until the point we start flooding the market.
- [01:49]
B
If the middle, the, the voice, the voices, I call us more in the middle, you know, like midd. Need to speak more, we need to talk more. Because it's, everybody thinks, oh, it's so far left, or it's so far right.
- [02:00]
A
I don't know.
- [02:01]
B
Like, I know a lot of people that are in the middle that love, you know, that want to be fiscally responsible and, or fiscally accountable and socially responsible. Like, there's a lot of people like that in Canada still. So it's just that they're not talking as much and it's time we talked a little more.
- [02:17]
A
Absolutely. You said fiscal responsibility. I want to start with a little bit about your background. I know you've spoken about it. I mean, everybody knows who you are. It's, it's an incredible, you've done incredible Work because I was reading a little bit of your bio or whatever, and I. And everybody's pitched onto this. The. The idea that you were using. You'd maxed out all your credit cards, and then that's when. That's all of a sudden when the tides changed. You. You bought into this company, and I want you to explain it. And then everything for you sort of expanded. I want you to tell. Tell you I've at least ma. I've at least, you know, gotten really good at the first half of that equation. I'm curious doing it, you know. Arlene, am I gonna just push over to the. I'm just wondering if it's a magic.
- [03:07]
B
No, I think. I mean, maybe the story is. Is better than the reality, you know, of how I have done what I've done. I mean, I always think sometimes. Sometimes the. The folklore can become stronger than the reality. I don't feel like I'm all that done all that much. I mean, what I've done is figured out a way to survive, I guess. And I've done that through a lot of. As many Canadians have, through a lot of hurdles and obstacles and have been able to find a way to, you know, get through my life by relying on myself a lot more than I think people tend to do and believing in myself a lot more. And having said that, I. There's been lots of moments where I haven't believed in myself. But I. You know, like, listen, when I. When I first got divorced, I had, like, zero money. I had low. Like, I don't. Not unlike you, I have very little education. I have a grade 12 education. I didn't get to go to post secondary. Really.
- [04:02]
A
Okay.
- [04:03]
B
No, I've gotten some. I've been very blessed by being given lots of great honorary degrees. I think that I've got, like five or six of them now. And my. My father, who had a PhD in education, was probably rolling in his grade because he believes that you have to go to school to get anything right. But I. You know, I think it was like, I didn't have a choice, people. And I had four little kids, and I needed to figure out how I was going to, you know, like, put food on the table, you know, put a roof over our heads, just get by. And so I did what I think a lot of immigrants to this country know how to do, which is, you know, hard work, roll up your sleeves, get to work, figure out how you're going to make a living. And. And that's what I did. That meant. That meant maxing out my credit cards and, you know, getting in debt in a way that I didn't know how I was going to get out of. And, you know, I, I got fired from a job, and then I got an opportunity because one of the people I used to work with had started as a part, was a partner in an ad agency, knew I needed a job, said, listen, why don't you come over? We can make you a partner in the company, but we can't pay you anything. It was just really, they were on their last, Right. They were on their last day. So I thought I had nothing else to do, Joanna. So I went, oh, hey, I'll try that. You know, I'll go do that for a while and, and see. And I, and it was in marketing, and I, you know, I'd worked in the peripherals of marketing and television advertising and, you know, dated a guy in the radio sales team. Like, that was the extent of what I knew. I sold TV ads and I dated a radio guy. So, you know, that made me an expert in marketing to do that. So I tried that, and I was good at it. You know, fortuitously I was good at.
- [05:52]
A
It, and that was it. And then it just rolled from there.
- [05:55]
B
No, it took me like two and a half years of not making any money and continuing to max out my credit cards and continuing to, you know, like, be, you know, dead broke. Right. It was pretty tough for a while, and then we just started to turn a corner and started to be able to make, you know, a living well enough that the business could, you know, pay salaries and things just kind of fell in place after, after a few years. But it, it, you know, the startup is the people think a startup is like, it's, it's an overnight success. Like, it, you know, it's, it's years and years before you start to get to a place where you can go, okay, I can finally, you know, take a little bit of a breath of relief. But even then, Joanna, like, you never can. You never really breathe.
- [06:38]
A
No. No. Are you stuck in. Okay, couple questions. Number one, why didn't you give up? You, you were maxing out your credit card. You got this job, they're not paying anything. It doesn't sound lovely for two years. How did you not say, that's it, I'm gonna go get this job, or I'm gonna, you know, whatever else you, you could have possibly have done at the time.
- [06:57]
B
I, I, I've been, I've been blessed with a Teflon will. I'd say you Know, like, I've got this. I've got this. I don't. I don't. It takes a lot to kill my optimism. Like, I'm. I'm optimistic. I. I'm really lucky that I'm an optimist. Like, I. I always try to see the positive in things, and so I kept telling myself it was going to get better, even when it was the worst. Now, having said that, I also went through real bad bouts of depression and anxiety, and I've experienced all that, but I. I still try to remain optimistic. And I think it's just my dad's voice whispering in my ear, telling me that nobody was going to take care of this. It was my job to take care of it. And so I had to. I had to do it for myself and for my family. And there's nothing more motivating than figuring out how to, you know, to take care of your family. And so it was really just hard work. And I don't want to. I hate that line where people say, oh, if I can do it, anybody could do it. Because I also think there's hard work and then there's timing and there's good luck and there's. There's people who will be. Are willing to help you. And there's a lot more than just hard work that has to happen in order for these things to. In order for your life to, you know, kind of come together. And it is a combination of community and. And good luck and good timing.
- [08:21]
A
Absolutely. I think it's so many things, but I think the. That optimism. And I've done a little bit of research on it, because there's. Apparently it's genetic. Like, a good chunk of our optimism is literally genetic.
- [08:36]
B
That makes sense.
- [08:36]
A
And I say I am incredibly optimistic until, like, you know, one Sunday every four months. And then. And then it's like I feel the weight of it, because I kind of go, nope, this happened for this reason or this happened for this reason, or we'll get by this. Or we'll get by this. Now, sometimes those things add up and they. They have a weight to them. But they do say that people are born with a significant level of either pessimism or optimism built in. And I agree with you. I. It has to be that, right? I. It is born in. And then. And then you're faced with challenges. The way you look at a challenge and something scary. That. That's everything, right? That is, absolutely. So you immigrated from South Africa?
- [09:24]
B
Yep.
- [09:25]
A
Shall we talk about Elon? No.
- [09:30]
B
What you just said is actually A very important point, because running towards the hard things is what I've been taught to do. I have been taught not to shirk away from facing challenges. And, you know, and sometimes you face challenges. You know, I can be in rooms where I'm talking to people and I'm. I'm super nervous about what I'm going to say and I'm. And my voice will quiver and I'll get, you know, really, like. Because I know I'm being, you know, I'm. It's a brave moment. It's a moment that I have to show courage and it'll. It'll reflect. I'll cry very easily. Things will happen where I'll, you know, tears look under my eyes. My voice will quiver, but I still don't back away. I still will force myself through that moment. And I think that was because I was taught that when you have a to do list, you always tackle the hardest thing first. Always. And. And that's. That's what I do. I. I go. Because then the rest of it feels really damn easy after that. Right.
- [10:29]
A
Do you think? And I'm going to apply it to myself a little bit because, you know, up right up until Covid, I was living a 9 to 5 life. Like, it's funny that you talk about education and don't get me wrong, I love education. The more education, the better. I just don't think the classroom's the only place for it. I think there's lots of places to get incred. I needed. I needed a syllabus. Me personally, I needed a syllabus. I needed a mark structure. I needed an end date. I needed people. Because I'm. I was a very in the box kind of person. Like, my mom was a nurse, my uncle was a teacher. Everybody, you know, the 9 to 5, I never even contemplated outside of that. And then I got divorced Darlene and then. And then Covid, and those two things happened within two months.
- [11:19]
B
Yeah.
- [11:20]
A
And that kind of. And then go. Because I want to. I want to ask you about your, you know, your divorce and having to focus on your kids and how you did that. Because pulling that rug, I mean, Covid was a huge rug that nobody even. At least we all got pulled together. But pulling that rug and then having to find your footing, it was life changing in a way I am so incredibly thankful for. Even though I didn't even know I was going to make it to the other side of.
- [11:51]
B
Well, I mean, honestly, those are the moments in my book reinvention, the last one I wrote it's all about that. We shouldn't wait for big moments in our life to figure out what we want and who we are. But practically speaking, the majority of us wait for something pivotal to happen in our lives. Whether that's Covid, whether that's a divorce, whether that's a loss of a job or an illness or something has to happen. Where. And like, even the country, what we're going through right now is a good example where you have to have something happen to go, oh, my gosh, you know, like, I need to figure out what I want and who I am and where I'm going. And. And so I think what happened for you is very typical. Where you went through this divorce, which was. That's gut wrenching. That's. That's so difficult. And it, it changes everything. It changes your friend group, it changes your lifestyle, it changes your. Your sense of self worth and your sense of being. And, and so those things make you. And then add Covid to that. And now you're thinking, it's the end of the world, it's the end of my relationship, it's the end of me. It's like. And so no wonder, you know, we get messed up because we kind of go, how am I going to get through this? And I think that's the whole beauty of what we get in our lives, Joanna, is that we can reinvent ourselves. We can take those moments and wallow in them and feel sorry for ourselves and not change for the better. Which is kind of what some people do right now. When you talk about the country. Oh, it's all the countries. It's a mess and it's broken and it's horrible. Or you can say, things aren't great, it needs to change. I'm going to be a catalyst for that change. And that's just like in your life. I. I'm not surprised you came out the other side like as you have. And I'm so glad you did because look at the good you're doing with your life as a result of those experiences.
- [13:51]
A
Yeah. How do we thank you? That's an incredible. That's incredible coming from you. As I knock this. How do we make. I won't even beat that out, guys. You get to hear me knocking my ring nervously on the desk. When I get complimented sometimes it's funny. I like an atta girl. Don't get me wrong. I like a strong atta girl. But when I get a really strong compliment, I. I immediately am like, I can't. What do I gotta do? Something. How do we. Can we. Because then I want to talk about sort of business life and being a woman in business, which is a whole different kettle of fish. How do we manufacture, if that's the case, or how do we create a sense of urgency or a sense of externality to force us to figure out who we are, what we can do, and how. How strong we can stand without the. Of the rug. Like, you know, There's a House is one of my favorite shows and one of. A quote from it is almost dying changes everything for about three months. So about three months after almost dying, you're brave. You'll ask that person out, you'll tell your boss what you think. You'll do all of these stuff. And then our. And then our world gets smaller somehow, and we don't. So how can we manufacture that? Or how do we get there so we don't have to wait?
- [15:19]
B
Absolutely. I'm not trying to plug the book here, but that's exactly what the book's about, which is what are the steps we can take to figure out how we can reinvent ourselves on our own terms without the stress of all these other things that have happened to us to make us reinvent ourselves. So, you know, and that requires a lot of things that people aren't comfortable with. It requires an introspection. Like, we have to be able to look at ourselves. And people don't like looking at themselves. Joanna, Just like you don't like a compliment, people don't. It's uncomfortable because the attention's on us. And it's even worse when you have to be subjective and objective about yourself. Yeah, you know, like subjective because it's, you know, like, you, of course, got your. You have biases about who you think you are, but you have to be objective about who you really are. And how we see ourselves is always different than how we show up for others. And so I think that introspection is a big piece of it. And, and that's not something you do, you know, one day on a back of a napkin. It takes real alone time, and it takes thinking and it takes a willingness to explore what you loved about your past and what you want for your future. And again, what humans don't like doing two things. They don't like thinking too much about anything because that might be uncomfortable. And. And they really don't like thinking about their past. They. They. We don't want, like, it's.
- [16:42]
A
I'm going to go you one further. We don't like being alone, and we.
- [16:45]
B
Don'T like being alone. So there you go, there's the, the time, right? I've got a show. Know Arlene is alone.
- [16:51]
A
Listen, I'm getting to it. But that's the thing. We, you know, we're of an age now where we can embrace being alone, like where I do have a partner. But the idea that I can embrace being alone has only come at the hard 50 years. Whereas I, not 50 years old, I am 49. I shave off all my gray.
- [17:16]
B
You don't look 49 years old. Not that I should say that because that shouldn't be an indicator of anything, but I would never have said that you were 49 years old. Listen, you're. You're a baby. I'm 68, so I'm old right now.
- [17:28]
A
I'm catching up. I just think that. So, yeah, I think you're supposed to.
- [17:34]
B
Say that I don't look 68 now.
- [17:36]
A
You're supposed to, but then it would be a. It would be a reciprocal compliment that nobody was going to believe. So I was going to save that for later. But Arlene, you can't. You. You can't do that. Right? Because now you've just taken away the option altogether. I got nothing now. I think.
- [17:53]
B
I think I look damn good. So I don't even need you to say it to me.
- [17:56]
A
I can say it damn good, Arlene. I do think though, that the being. It's so funny because a lot of people ask me because they think I have magical answers, which of course I have. I'm just keeping them to myself. But they'll say, what should young people, if you could give one young people and an idea or one thing to say to them. And my thing is always go to therapy. And I don't mean that like go to therapy necessarily. I mean, as a young person, you need time, if you're intelligent enough or aware enough to do that introspection on your own. You need time by yourself about yourself with no other subjective informants directing who you are. Because I, I teach young people all the time and they have everybody, including myself, telling them what to do, who to be and how to get there every single day. And then we get mad when they're 21 and they're not this independent, you know, beautiful, perfect, self esteem image of themselves. Well, you haven't given them space to do that.
- [18:59]
B
Yeah.
- [19:00]
A
So there needs to be this space. You know, we all want to have a partner early and we all want. Whether we want to get married or not, that's not the point. We. We do like being partnered, especially at that age. It gives us, it validates us in a lot of ways. It validates us in society. It validates us with our friends. It validates sort of our people wanting us and somehow we need that because that's the part that should happen when we're 20. But can we make 20 year olds do that?
- [19:31]
B
I, I think it's, I think it's part biological. You know, there's a reproductive, like there's this whole kind of, there's a, there's a hormonal thing that's going on. There's a heightened sexuality that's happening. There's, as a result of the hormonal thing that's going on. There's, there's societal pressure about what the norm is about getting married or being in a relationship. It means that you're somehow whole. Um, and, and so I think this combination of everything that happens and then as you said in our 20s, I mean, who knows what they want in 20. I sure didn't know what I wanted and, and I didn't even know who I was. So this expectation that we're putting on young people to have, you know, to. Nowadays, if a 21 year old hasn't started some sort of a charity, solved world peace, you know, had a, got three part time jobs and you know, got three applications into Ivy League schools, then they're not, they're failures and the pressure on them is enormous. So what would I, you know, what, what, what do you, you know, you say get there, go to therapy. I would say something probably along the lines of it's going to be okay because the, the pressure is that you have to know these things so quickly and you have to determine who you are and what you're going to do with your life and you don't even know who you are, let alone what you're going to do. I didn't start my business, I was 31 years old. I didn't start my fund until I was 57 years old. I didn't like, I'm, I'm starting a brand new show I years old. Age is not the determining factor of who you're going to be. And you certainly, and I still don't have all the answers. In fact, the older I get, the more I understand, the less I know. So I think, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I, I think it's, I think we have got to ease up on these young. These kids are under a lot of pressure right now. They, they've come out of COVID A lot of them never socialize through their late teens. The most important time for socialization. A lot of them are unclear of what they all think the world is a disaster and they don't have any hope because how are they going to afford a home, how are they going to afford a car, how they can't their jobs, they can't keep up with all this stuff. And this is global, this isn't just here. And so what I think we have to give kids isn't pressure. What I think we have to give them is hope for the future and having them find their way in the world and how they can contribute to that because they're going to be the solution, not assets. 50 and 68 years old, 49 and.
- [22:04]
A
Thank you, thank you. I got a few months, hon. I got a few months. I think. Yeah, I, I 100 agree with you. And again, being around them all day, it's also incredible. What's interesting is this idea of socialization because then I want to talk about what it's like to be a woman in, in the world that you live in. Obviously we see you on tv, so we see I can see you in that world on a, a microcosmic kind of level. But this idea about socialization is very much a double edged sword, right? Because you, you have this healthy part of socialization teaching you how to be and where to be and how to fit in. But then there's a very fine line between socializing and indoctrinating, between socializing and manipulating, between socializing and telling these young people who they need to be. When in actuality, if you step back and get the hell out of their way, they're pretty incredible, thoughtful, creative, intelligent individuals. And I mean even at grade 8, not just my grade 12s, you know.
- [23:11]
B
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, Joanne, I think that I don't these that age group. I mean you're, you're, you're blessed to teach them because I think what they need most is they need to see what they can become more than need to be told what they can be.
- [23:35]
A
Yes, I agree.
- [23:37]
B
Yes, I think, I think and, and that happens through mentorship, that happens through friendship, that happens through demonstrating the bravery and the things that you, you represent and do. I mean, you know, you're standing up in a world where, you know, your community is getting, you know, is under so much pressure. Like I, I, I, I, I, I just have so much respect for how hard it is anyhow, you know, if you layer into that. You know, the LGBTQ component of it, the. The challenges that that is. Kids need to see that it's okay to identify as you want to identify. It's okay to be who you are. And they. They don't be told that they need to see it, and they can see you, and they can go, I can be who I am. And it's things like that. I use that as an example. I don't know if it's the right example, but.
- [24:23]
A
No.
- [24:24]
B
I make you uncomfortable again?
- [24:25]
A
No, no. Am I blushing? No, no, that didn't make me uncomfortable. What the funny part is, is sometimes a lot of people would think because I present the way I do and, you know, how I speak and how I hold myself, that a lot of kids who are questioning stuff, I'd be their go to. I'm never their go to. So it's. You're. You're right. It needs to be something that they can see. But if a kid is questioning or if kid needs to talk about, they can't come to me. Not always, not often, because I'm too close to the thing.
- [24:55]
B
Yes, you'd get.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way, way, way too close to the thing. When. When you talk about being brave, though, how have you found it? I mean, we can talk about being in the LGBTQ community, but also talking about being a woman in this world. Yeah.
- [25:12]
B
I mean, I'd say that the biases I felt, you know, growing up in business have been being predominantly the only female in the room. Like, honestly, I. When people used to say to me on Dragon's Den, as an example, like, 20 years ago, you know what? You're the only woman on the show. What does that feel like? I generally would say that I don't wear. I don't think about being the only woman in the show. I just want to show up as a good business person on the show. And so, to me, I wasn't representing women. I was just representing myself. And then it wasn't until later that I started to understand how important it was to see women in that role on that show. And so I grew up with a bias of women were, you know, a good example. If I would go to a dinner party, like, say, let's say a business associate would have a dinner party at their home, and I get invited inevitably. And I mean, inevitably, it would be. The men would go in one room and the women would go in another room. Now I'm more comfortable being in the room with the men because they're the ones talking business. They're the ones that I have. I do work with. Right. But I would be directed to the room with the women. And so you, you, you get labeled and you get assigned and you get dismissed, and you get. And these are all subtle things that happen without. And nobody, I think, is doing it intentionally. They just think that's going to be where I'm more comfortable. And so you grow up with these biases and you learn to overcome them by just pushing yourself back into the room that you, you know, that you want to be in and not letting somebody assign a room for you. Like, you know, I want to be in this room, and that's where I'm going to go. Now, what happens in that room, whether you're accepted or not, is a whole other circumstance and a whole other condition that women in business have to go through. But for me, it's been just having a voice at the table. I know Sheryl Sandberg wrote the book about leaning out. I'm much more about leaning in. I think you, you know, like, I think you, you have to lean into the conversation you have. You know, leaning out means, sure, you're tell. Showing everybody kind of you're standing up for something, and you have to do that, too. But leaning in stands up for yourself and, you know, kind of showing up at the table. So I've learned that. That if you want to have a voice at a boardroom table, if you want to have a voice in a room, you have to be unafraid to say your opinion, which can be incredibly intimidating when you're surrounded by people who are more educated, more accomplished, more experienced, and, and men. So you, you, you're against that power play immediately. It's unbalanced. Absolutely. So you have to, you have to lean in.
- [27:48]
A
I've been told that sometimes when I go into rooms, I don't like this, obviously, because I. It's very interesting. It's all subconscious, but I've been told that if I'm in a room filled with not, not just men, but maybe a certain kind of guy, regardless of the conditions under which I go into the room, I. I tend to puff up a little bit. Meaning. Meaning I put forward. I know that I cut my hair like this, but I'm not the most masculine person in the world. You know what I mean? Like, I'll cry like that at a commercial. All I'm. I like to talk out.
- [28:22]
B
Pause.
- [28:23]
A
What's that?
- [28:24]
B
Can you pause your podcast? Are you able to.
- [28:26]
A
No, I've never tried to pause. Write it down. Wait, write it down and. So we can talk about it off camera.
- [28:33]
B
My phone just ra. I was going to turn it off, but hold. Hold everything, Joanna.
- [28:39]
A
Okay.
- [28:39]
B
Hold everything.
- [28:40]
A
I'll just keep talking. I'll tell people my story.
- [28:44]
B
Have a phone ringing in my. In our ear.
- [28:47]
A
I like it. I can't hear it. Just so you know.
- [28:49]
B
Okay, well, good. I. I have sol. I think I've solved the problem now. I have the phone.
- [28:54]
A
All right.
- [28:55]
B
I can answer it if it needs to. Just write, be a delivery. You imagine I've been waiting for.
- [29:04]
A
I thought all the UPS stuff got banned.
- [29:06]
B
My date. None of those things.
- [29:11]
A
Forget everything else we're talking about.
- [29:12]
B
That was a bizarre. Sorry.
- [29:14]
A
Sorry.
- [29:15]
B
That was in the world of our le.
- [29:17]
A
Tonight.
- [29:19]
B
Huh?
- [29:19]
A
Are you going on a date tonight?
- [29:21]
B
No.
- [29:22]
A
Oh. I was gonna say, forget everything else. Let's talk about that.
- [29:25]
B
I don't want to go on a date tonight.
- [29:27]
A
I puff up a little bit, and. And I've been told it's not the most attractive thing that I do in my day. You know what I mean? Like, it's like. It's like I. I imbue myself with a little bit more masculine energy. And what I find interesting about that is I. I don't do that consciously at all. And. And I'm not. I'm not too sure about why. If I sort of step into sort of a different character or a different. Because we all have images ourselves, or if I joke differently, or even if it's just something in the quality of my voice. So. Have you ever felt that at all? Because I didn't know I did it.
- [30:06]
B
I might do the opposite. I might shrink into myself because I'm very much an introvert, and so I'm not really comfortable in. I'm short, and I don't really. I don't really. I'm like you. I don't like a lot of attention on myself. Like, if somebody compliments me, find it uncomfortable. So I think when I go into a room, I'm a little bit. I'm a little bit. I might shrink down and. And. And it. It. I have to force myself, especially if I'm doing public speaking or if I'm kind of the, you know, the headliner on an adventure.
- [30:45]
A
Yeah.
- [30:46]
B
I have to walk in, you know, like, strong and tall, and I still. But inside, I'm, like, shrinking. And so I. I think we. It's interesting that I can see. I can see what they're saying about why that could happen. I could see both sides of that, I think. But it's all Just indicative of how we feel about ourselves and what we think we have and how we think we have to show up.
- [31:05]
A
My entire audience right now when you said that, that you understand that I don't, I don't like when people say nice things about me. They're gonna be like, oh, that's not true. Here's the qualifier. I don't respond well to physical compliments.
- [31:19]
B
Yes.
- [31:19]
A
Not, not mental or, or if somebody says I'm smart. If somebody says I'm funny, I love it. You know, I like, I like being center stage. I like proving myself in that capacity. I think that's how I've seen myself. As soon as somebody says something about my aesthetic, I'm like, oh. And I don't know why. I don't know where that comes from, but it's a very, it's a very different kind of.
- [31:42]
B
Yeah, I get that. I, I tell people all the time I've got, like, incredible self confidence when it comes to business. Business. Like, I, I, I think I, I can, I would have a discussion with anybody. Presidents, prime minister, I wouldn't care. I, I can have a conversation with anybody. But my, I am very, I have very little self confidence personally. And so those two things are not diametrically opposed. They're, they, they, both things can be true. You know, we can have our own personal concerns about who we are and how we look, but we can also show up very strong in terms of what we do in our skills, and things just happen. This is what we live with.
- [32:21]
A
Do you think that's, that's an aspect of growing up as a woman in this country, in the similar ages where we grew up? Do you think it's a reflection of that? Because, I mean, your, your dad sounded like he imbued you with all sorts of confidence and empowerment and told you what you needed to do. And I know my mom did the same thing. Where do you think that hesitation comes from? If we can answer this question, by the way, Arlene, we're changing the world. There will be no more male. Because I think men have this. It's like, where do you get the audacity of that confidence? It doesn't come from anywhere. No.
- [33:03]
B
And if women did the same thing, they would be, they would be. So they were being bitchier or.
- [33:09]
A
Yes.
- [33:09]
B
Or, you know, aggressive and, and intimidating as opposed to, you know, and smart. I think for me, and I love, I, I will say this with. I love my mother dearly. She passed away two years ago, a couple days ago, and I, I loved her A lot. We didn't have a really good relationship until I was older. And I would say that my insecurity without. Because I'm not a big person about assigning blame. I'm not trying to blame her. I think when I think back of where my lack of confidence came from, my mom wasn't really, like, one to give a lot of it was more criticism than it was compliments. And I think she felt through criticism, I would, you know, kind of step up a little bit. And, and so without, again, I, I don't want to sign blame to her because I, I always think we've done the best job we can and she did the best job she could. But I do think a lot of it is just because I've. That critique of myself and that criticism of myself was something that I got used to as a child. And so I, I think I learned to overanalyze myself and overthink kind of how I show up personally and, and aesthetically interesting professionally. My dad would be. That would be the influence of my father, I would say more than my mom, so. But I always stand on stage, Joanne, and say, like, you know, we can blame our past, but our past. Our past shapes us, but it doesn't define us. And so again, we can wallow in that. I can say, oh, poor me, you know, I didn't get any compliments when I was a kid, and that's why I'm messed up. Or I can say, ah, maybe that's what happened. Understand it and, and, and accept it and try and do the best with it that I can. You know, like, I, I just think it's. And again, maybe we're born that way. I don't know, maybe that's optimism.
- [34:56]
A
But I also think, too. I think it would have been. It probably would have been exacerbated. It would have been exacerbated by a culture that tells women they're supposed to be cooperative, they're not supposed to be leaders. It tells women they're supposed to be in this position of inferiority. They're supposed to be quiet and demure and, you know what I mean? They're not supposed to be all these other things. And then you get all of these other subtle, and, let's be honest, not so subtle direction about where women need to go. And then you just, Just couple it on all of the things that, you know, people have had to go through. When I tell people to get therapy or when I tell people to be that introspective is never. It's sure. Fix the things you need to fix. Right. If you're an ass, don't be an ass. I hate when people are like, well, that's just who I am. Well, if you're a jerk, you go that. It's not just who you are. But I think introspection, you need to understand who you are, why you are not necessarily. Well, never be ashamed of it and, and don't feel guilt about it. Just understand this is my starting point. These are the things I'm going to back away from. These are the things that I'm going to recoil from, probably not for the right reason. So I'm going to recognize myself recoiling. I'm going to recognize myself backing up, and then I'm going to choose to not go with my instincts, because my instinct doesn't serve me. That's when I talk about it. I think that's why we should really be introspective, not to placate to it, not to blame it, but to actually have a good starting point. You understand?
- [36:36]
B
That makes sense. I think context in everything is important, and people often forget context. So understanding kind of why you are where you are, when you are is really important. And again, people don't want to think about that. Right. If you want to lay blame, it's somebody else's fault. It's, you know, it's. It's something happened to me. It's. I've. I've just had bad luck my whole life. You know, I mean, there's an interview question, they say, what's the best interview question you can ask? It's basically, do you consider yourself a lucky or an unlucky person? And if somebody says, I, I'm an unlucky person, it's indicative of their. Their propensity to blame circumstances for where they are. Luck does play a role in our lives.
- [37:18]
A
But.
- [37:18]
B
But you can't just say, I've had. It's always been bad luck that has driven me to where I am. There's always decisions you've made along the way, consequences to your actions, and things that have actually led you to have the circumstance you are. So context is very important.
- [37:34]
A
By the way, I was getting to the best interview question that.
- [37:37]
B
Sorry, I took that away too. You.
- [37:40]
A
I'm just joking. Never gonna ask it. All right, so let's.
- [37:43]
B
Let's shift a question. Yeah, okay. Sorry you were about to ask me, but.
- [37:47]
A
No, go ahead. I'm gonna shift gears to your dating life in a second, so.
- [37:52]
B
Well, I'm gonna make this question drag out. How Much time we got left or.
- [37:56]
A
You'Re not your show. I want to focus on your show and being.
- [37:59]
B
Okay, okay. I, I'm a little bit, I have a, I, I use humor a lot in my life. I, I find. Because I think when you, I think a sense of humor is so important. You, you. And, and I, and I think about the people that I have really, who have really influenced me with true humor. Like Robin Williams is a good example where, you know, and, and you see a lot of me, he's an extreme case because he committed suicide, which is a horrible expression of depression. And so it's so devastating that his life was there and he, he needed to, to do that to ease his pain. But I, I think that, and this is a very personal question and I hope you don't mind.
- [38:46]
A
I love it already. I'm excited. Just so you know, there's no personal questions for me.
- [38:50]
B
Okay. So.
- [38:52]
A
Or I like as a.
- [38:53]
B
You're so, you're so smart and you're so, and you use, you use humor to educate, which I love. Like I resonate with humor. I resonate with learning. But I think about how many great people I know who are comedians. They're not educators, they're comedians. But they use their comedy to talk about the world situation. To talk. They do educate in that they're talking and using humor to get people to wake up to social conditions and what's happening. And they use extremes to do that. They use extremes to get there long winded way to say. A lot of people who are very funny also suffer from a lot of depression. And I'm curious about what that is. What drives the, what drives the humor? Does it come from a place like, and what, what marries it to the depression? Because it seems to be, it seems to, it seems to be evident. A lot comedians are to suffer from depression. Many of them talk about it, talk about being on some, you know, therapy or treatments or whatever. And I, and I'm wondering what the connection is.
- [40:07]
A
I think there's two different lanes here. I think my humor, I think my humor has always been driven by two things. Number one, insecurity. So from being a very little kid, if I feel I will be the loudest, the funniest, the biggest, if I feel insecure. So if I'm a new kid in class, I'm, I got it. I got. And I, so I was always that way. So I don't know where that comes from. And then now it's be. I honestly believe it's performative because of what I do. You have two choices as a teacher. Become a great performer or find another job.
- [40:45]
B
Yes. True.
- [40:46]
A
And I. And I guess I've always been driven to that. Now I'm going to. Since we're being personal, I've always been afraid. I have never felt a level of. Of depression. I have never felt that post divorce, there was about. There was a little bit of time in there. I'm like, oh, God, this is what it feels like. Like, I can't. I can't breathe. I can't. And there was. There was a minute there. But I've always been a little afraid of that being in me somewhere that I'm just not aware of, because my dad, when I was 25, actually took his own life.
- [41:27]
B
I'm sorry that I'm. Then I'm sorry that I know I've.
- [41:30]
A
Done a whole pod. I talk about it very openly because I think it's super important. And it's been a long time since that happened. But I often think about how he was. And he was very. I never heard him laugh. I heard my dad laugh, like, twice. And one time he had a drink in his hand, one drink. And I called my mom. My parents got divorced when I was very young. I called my mom. I said, dad's drunk. You're gonna have to come get me. And my dad got on the phone. She's like, ange, I've had half a drink. I don't know what she. But he was with his friends, and he was laughing. But him gutturally laughing was so foreign to me that I thought that was indicative. You know, he was always this. He never yelled either. There was no big emotion. And when I was young, my mom got worried because. And this is also kind of interesting, I didn't express a lot of up and down. I wasn't this kid, right? You know, teenagers and teenage girls particularly, it's all sorts of drama. I never have any drama. Now we all understand now why that was because. Because I didn't care about boys. I dated them. They didn't impact me, you know what I mean, on a. On a real level. So I got to avoid all the high school drama. I waited for women to crush me later in my life. I went through it eventually. So I wonder if there's pieces of me like that and if I spend too much time by myself and my mom will talk about this and it's not good for me. No, it's not good. So. So alone.
- [43:06]
B
You feel depressed when you're by yourself in your mind.
- [43:09]
A
Too much I get a couple days. I get a couple days where I'm like, okay, I can. I can rewatch Buffy the Vampire Slayer or whatever. And I need. I do need some time. I like a little bit of quiet time because I'm a teacher, but not too much. And then I wonder sometimes. Is that because I want to keep occupied all the time?
- [43:27]
B
Maybe, maybe. I mean, may and maybe. I mean, there's probably lots of things to unpack there that only your therapist could help with. I can't. But, But I, But I find that. That pretty fascinating that. Yes, it's, it's interesting to me. I. Because I often use humor as a. As a deflection, you know, as. As. As trying to cut through the tension and trying to get people to, you know, bring the pressure down or temperature down or a way to break a silence, or I use. I use it as a tool without meaning to, I think, not intentionally. But then afterwards, I realized that I, you know, was that an appropriate thing to say something funny at that moment? But then I realized why I did it. But in your case, your humor is actually. It's so powerful because it, It. It's such a. As I said, you marry it with education. And so I find it so powerful. Like Robin Williams humor was powerful. And, and, and so I just was wondering if there's any connection with how you kind of cope in the real world.
- [44:39]
A
I think it's very similar. I think who you see here is very, you know, who, Who I am when I do podcasts, what, how I do tick tocks, all of those things. I think it's very reflective of just who I am. And because I, I think if it wasn't, I. I don't think I could have done it for so long. Could have been too much work. But the reason why I do it when it comes to educating was for two reasons. Number one, I keep students attention. But number two, and probably way more importantly, especially on social media, is that I am constantly trying to figure out ways to get to the people who look at me and have decided. I'm constantly trying to figure out, how do I say something a little bit softer so that the person that's in my comments or on my lives, who wants to make a horrific comment, and a lot of people are like, kick him out. I'm like, no, no, give me a second with them. I think I can get at them. I think if I can get at one of 10 people who have decided who I am by my haircut or whatever, prejudicial or stereotypical stuff they have going on. And even if it's not about my aesthetic, even it's about my political stances that they'll give me a minute it, and they'll just listen right after the joke, but they'll listen to the argument I make or the information that I give because I've disarmed them. So it's very similar to what you do because you're trying to bring down the pressure in the room. I'm just trying to bring down the pressure, you know, with X amount of people that are actually watching me because I think we're inundated with it.
- [46:14]
B
I think I. So much respect for what you just said, like so much respect for you that you strive for discourse that is respectful and who, that you are prepared to take a minute with the haters because most people will not they and, and the hate builds on the hate. It, it's, it's too hard to confront somebody who has a completely opposite opinion from you or who chooses to go at you personally. But I, I have learned over the years that on, you know, in social, when I, if some I, I, I, I, I, I can't. You probably are getting there too. But you know, if I have 1200 replies, I can't reply to all of them. So I'm very, I'll pick a few and try to reply to a couple here or there. And I almost always inevitably try to pick somebody to reply to that's being very negative because I want to have a, a respectful conversation with them, but I also want them to hear my view. And, and I think if there's more of that in the world, we will be a better world because we're not, it's not right or wrong. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. And I, I love that, that that's why you do it. Joanna. I think that makes so much sense to me that that's what you do. And, and it's. Yeah, yeah, again.
- [47:26]
A
Well, I need to be impressive on one thing. I am usually right. And so.
- [47:32]
B
Well, me too. So then I get why are we doing this then? Why?
- [47:37]
A
Well, I really think, look, I'm very, I, the social media, the pod, all this stuff that we're doing is amazing. I really want to be out more in real life. You know, I watched what, for example, what a guy like Jordan Peterson has done. And outside of taking on his particular viewpoints, being in public space in big groups of people, inviting a debate, which he doesn't, by the way, so inviting that debate in real time, filming that Putting that up, watching that. To me, to me, that's the only way we should be doing politics. It's the only way we should be doing education. It's the only way we should be doing social media. Inclusive, powerful. Now, there are limits about how you get to come at me. I always say, you know, it, as soon as you're verbally violent or, you know, threatening, all those kind of things, fine, there's a heavy line there. But outside of that, I think opening that up and being able to have that conversation is the only way we move from this period of time with such dichotomies of I'm over here and like, what's going on in the United States and what we're pushing to happen right here is so horrifically destructive and useless that the only way we're going to combat that isn't by elevating hate on this side, it's by opening discussion in the middle.
- [49:02]
B
Middle.
- [49:03]
A
Yeah, that's it.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah. No, I, I, I think bravo to that and to the notion of inviting that conversation. And as you said that because I'm an entrepreneur, I had an idea, so I'm going to talk to you about my idea because I think you are onto something. And we'll talk, we'll talk offline about it because I've always, one of the things I, I, for whatever reason, I always see opportunity. Problem is I can't chase out all of it. But I think in this case.
- [49:29]
A
Magic in your head. Yes, exactly. Can I ask about your show? I do have a heart out at 11 because I know it's 11.
- [49:35]
B
No, no, I know. Okay, let's do a quick. Yeah, let's do a quick.
- [49:39]
A
Can you, can you just talk about your show really quick before we have.
- [49:42]
B
To called Arlene is Alone. It's a, it's sounds so sad. I know, but it's not, it's not, it's not sad at all. The whole point is that you can be alone. Alone is not lonely sometimes. Sure, you can be lonely in a relationship. You can be lonely as married, a single. You can always be lonely, lonely. But being alone does not mean you are lonely. And so it's about talking to people about, you know, how they navigate being alone or being married or being in their lives. And I'm having so much fun, I just decided to do this. It's a YouTube show. I, I, who knows if it's going to go anywhere? I'm, I'm sure hopefully it'll get better with time. I hope people will subscribe to it. It's free. I'm just doing it because I think there's a conversation to be had and about. There's a lot of single people out there, a lot of people that are alone, and it's okay to. To live your life fully alone. So that's what it's about. Arlene is alone on YouTube.
- [50:35]
A
Subscribe I love, but you haven't dropped an episode yet. You've just dropped a trailer.
- [50:38]
B
14Th of February, because what better day?
- [50:46]
A
I want to thank you. And by the way, for those who are listening to this, I'm. I'm trying my best to get on Arlene show, so. So I'm looking forward to that. So go look for that. Hopefully that episode. We do some crazy stuff because she initially said that, you know, we get to do things while we're having these discussions. So if everybody knows me, I like to do some pretty crazy things. Thank you. I would love to schedule you for a part two right now. I would love, when you're in Toronto, maybe meet up in person and be able to have, you know, a longer conversation, because I think we. We got on the tip of some incredible, incredible points that I think people want to hear more about and hear your perspective, because it really is incredible. And I thank you for coming on the show. Wait, so you're going to commit to it at part two?
- [51:36]
B
Yeah, I'm not going to. Not now, because it's still.
- [51:39]
A
I'm sorry, you got. And then you guys heard it, so she's already on the hook. All right, guys, thank you so much for coming on and for everybody who listening. Who's listening? I'll see you next week. Same bat time, same bat. Channel dismissed.