← Unlearn16: Class is in Session
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- [00:03]
A
Classes in session. Deep breath, guys. Welcome to Unlearn 16 classes in session. Look at who I have with me. I don't even know if I have a good introduction. I'm sweating and I'm. My neck hurts a little bit. It's a. It's a lot. Is your hair okay?
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B
My hair's good.
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A
Are you sure? Hair's good.
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B
I washed it for you.
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A
Got. Listen, you do what you have to do. That is epic. The fact that you're. You live in Toronto, you're from Toronto, and I've never seen you. I said this to my friends, and they're like, you think we would have seen her hair?
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B
You think you would have passed me.
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A
On the street somewhere? Thank you so much for sitting down with me. To be honest, I don't even know. I don't know where to start. I'm going to start with a little bit of a story because everybody's going to start.
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B
Everybody's got a story.
- [00:48]
A
Sorry. I'm a teacher. I have a lot of puns. My very first class that I ever taught was. I was doing my practice teaching with the kids, and it was an English class.
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B
Class.
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A
I'm not an English teacher. And I walked in there and I was supposed to be doing a poetry unit. And so the teacher said, here, poetry.
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B
I'm like, oh, my God, you're going.
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A
To give me, what, grade 10 poetry. It's going to go badly. And I used Everybody's Got a Story.
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B
No way.
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A
So I. I printed off the lyrics. I made them listen to the song. We. We listened to it. We did the metaphor, simile, all of that kind of stuff. And then we really got to the aspect of Everybody's Got a Story. And I had these kids telling, like, you know, nice, personal stories about important things that made them who they are.
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B
That's my very first. I love that.
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A
My very first teaching moment.
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B
Look at me. Look at you. Look at me. Contributing to the education of the young people. Come on.
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A
So you've been in the business since when?
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B
I have been in the music business formally since I was 15, 16. Wow. Yeah, like 10 years ago. Like a scant five, six years ago.
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A
So short of a time. And. And for that business, like, I mean, I want to talk about you being an artist. I want to talk about you being in the business, because those are two very different things. Can I ask a question? Why does she have to sit here?
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B
I don't know. I thought she was with you.
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A
All right, let's talk about the.
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B
The.
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A
The artistry side of it first. Did you know at 15 years old, were you like, this is who I am?
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B
Yes, I knew at, I knew at maybe. I mean, I knew when I was little. Little when you're doing things for validation from adults. I knew that I was like, good enough at it that adults were interested.
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A
Let's go into deep dive about the validation from adults. I think we're going to shift this entire thing.
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B
This became a completely different interview.
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A
So you would, you would stand up, you would sing, people would clap and you.
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B
Yeah, and I was like, people like this, I enjoy doing it. Um, and then, and I knew it was what I wanted to do professionally easily by the time I was, God, like 9, 10.
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A
And, and when you say professionally, how did you even conceptualize that at 9 or 10? Just that it was people on TV.
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B
It was, yeah, I'd be like, I want to do that. I didn't know what the, I didn't know what path I was going to take. I didn't know how I was going to. Because I, you know, I was an only child. I grew up a very middle class, you know. Well.
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A
Really?
- [03:19]
B
Yeah. So, you know, I, you know, I, both my parents were working parents. I had no connections in the business. I didn't know anybody until, you know, much later. And I, but I, you know, I just did what I, what I, what was available to me at the time. And my parents were great. They were really supportive. They were very, very attuned to my abilities. And they really made sure to go out of their way. They used what money they had to get me lessons and whatever it was that I needed at the time. So they were, they were great. They weren't pushy, but they were really, really supportive. And I was great. I was lucky. I had a lot of great teachers. I had great teachers.
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A
Well, and I think, well, music teachers or teachers in general.
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B
Music teachers especially, but teachers in general who guided me. Even the teachers who guided me in areas that weren't musical or that weren't arts related were so important. My English teacher was a huge part of my development. My history teacher was a huge part of my.
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A
As we are guys, you know, I understand.
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B
I'm not just sucking off.
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A
Well, I, I, I asked that question because it's like the, you possess and I'm, I'm gonna, it's gonna seem like sucking up.
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B
I'm not sucking up. No, it's okay.
- [04:28]
A
There is something truly authentic about your music, and I think that kind of authenticity and, and throughout, you know, the years that I've been l listening to you. But that kind of authenticity either has to be really hard fought for, meaning you have to go through. You have in what sounds like that lovely foundation of people who supported you, who bigged you up, who helped you, who. You know, nobody ever looked at you and goes, you want to be a singer? Don't be ridiculous. Did anybody say that?
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B
Yeah. No, nobody said that. No. But the. The. The sort of trials and tribulations of being in the music business for me came later. Ironically, they came after. After I had already had a significant and substantial amount of success.
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A
We're gonna talk about that. I'm really upset about that.
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B
But initially. Sorry. It's okay now. But it's all over now.
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A
It's not okay for everybody, just so you know.
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B
But initially I was. Yeah, I mean, initially I was just like, you know, why wouldn't I do this? This is great. You know.
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A
You know what? And there's something. Like I said, there's something incredibly powerful and authentic about that. Did you feel like. Like I've. I've been around the mu. I'm not musical in any way. I've been around the music business in different ways in different. I don't love it. There's aspects of it. I'm like. And plus, I. I'm a teacher, so I like structure and timing and nobody's on time in this business. Where's the sound guy?
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B
Listen, I was here when you got here. You were. This is a.
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A
You were actually early. I'm just. You know exactly what I'm talking.
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B
I know exactly what you're saying. I'm a verb.
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A
Promoter's not there.
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B
The.
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A
The sound guy now. Where's the lighting guy? There's no.
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B
Like.
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A
Anyways, that's beside the point. But the idea that you. Did you feel like you could hold on to. When you stepped into this business, could you hold on to authentically who you were or were you just sort of coming into it, or did you feel pressured?
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B
Oh, no, no, no. I. Listen, my. My mother in particular, my mom is like, I don't know about you, but my mom is like the voice in my head all the time. And I could call her anytime, any hour of any day. And so there was not. She was like, you know who you are. I always knew who I was and I was. And I think that was. You know, it's funny, when the whole me too thing happened a few years ago, my mother. This was like five, six, seven years ago, my. My mom called me. Even as an adult, my mom called me and she was like, is there anything I need to know? You know? And she was like, and don't there anything? And I was like, who else? I was like, like, if there was anything to know, you'd know. Like, how would you not know?
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
That's the kind of foundation that I had. So. And it saved me so many times because so many times, not just in the entertainment business, but particularly in the entertainment business, particularly as a young woman in the entertainment business, you find yourself alone a lot in rooms with people you don't know, many of whom are men. And it was, for me, I think that was what saved me, was everybody knew that I was at least outwardly pretty self confident, but I had this great foundation behind me. So they knew there were people like on the other side of the door, right? So they knew. Somebody's gonna know.
- [07:39]
A
So how old were you when you were starting to be in those rooms? It was like in, like, I know that when you're young, you'd go perform and stuff, but when you're in those rooms with people that kind of, or you would feel like maybe that could make or break. How old were you at that point?
- [07:52]
B
I mean, I was really young. I was from the time I was say, 15 until I was 18, 19. My parents were there with me because they sort of had to be. But then, from then on, I was kind of on my own. But it's so funny, I look at like, pictures and things that I did when I was really young. And I, and my mother went completely nuts from the time I was about like 19. So I was in my mid-20s. My mother was just like, you know, you know, she was really beside herself. And I see now why, because I was 19, but I looked like I was like 11, you know, and you don't, you don't feel that way when you're 19 or 20. You think like, I'm a woman.
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A
I'm everything.
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B
I'm a woman of the world. I know everything. There's nothing nobody can do, right? And, but, but I look back now and I'm like, oh, man, how, Like I got in a van with like a bunch of guys. I was like, 17, you know, kids.
- [08:39]
A
She's not, she never did that.
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B
I'm not advising this. I'm just saying.
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A
No, I, I, I talk about those stories a lot, actually, just in, in general. But you are in such a powerful and vulnerable place that I just feel like. And obviously we see a lot of stuff in the music business coming to a sort of fruition now. And. And you just see all of that happening. To be able to have the foundation to say I'm out or to say my mom's out on the other side of the door. That's incredible.
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B
Yeah.
- [09:10]
A
Do you think that's what led to. And we're going to get to. So you do one killer album, you do another killer album, and then you leave us. Talk about that for a minute.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Is that okay?
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B
Sure.
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A
All right, so what, you walk me through it. I've read stuff, I've heard. You know what I mean? You walk me through what happened.
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B
It's a lot less.
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A
Going to get some names and I'm going to just go make some calls. I have a bit of a following now.
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B
She has brass knuckles in her bag. Listen, so we. I finished my third record, Everybody's Got a Story. We came off the road. We came off the road in 2002. And I, you know, it was really the first time that I had taken any time since I had. I had been working solid since literally since I was like 16, 17. And I just reevaluated the entire relationship with my manager, who I had had up until that point since I was 15. And there were a lot of things about the relationship that were not working business wise, you know, on a. On a. On a professional level. And it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do to. To. To fire him. Right. But we. So I decided, you know, this is it. I'm going to go in a new direction. Completely new direction.
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A
So you're signed with the label.
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B
Sign with the label. I was with Sony, at Sony at the time.
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A
And then that was your manager.
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B
That was my manage.
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A
Just for myself and everybody listening. Those are separate entities.
- [10:33]
B
They are. But in my case, there was a lot of intertwining. There was a lot of, you know, we had the same, Same this, same that same lawyer, same this, same everything. Right. And there. Which happens a lot. I don't know if it happens as much anymore, but it did. So it made extricating myself really, really hard. And it was just. It was just really a really bad breakup. It was like when you have a really bad divorce and it became very contentious.
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A
Listen.
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B
And I walked down the aisle, you know, I had nobody there to sing Fall From Grace to me. Listen, we'll talk about that.
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A
So you had a bad breakup. A bad breakup, and then you have to let go of it all.
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B
Well, I kept trying, but it became this unrelenting, just campaign of legal harassment. And it went on and on and on. And it really went on for about 10 years, which people find really hard to believe. But I'm here to tell you it is possible. And it's, it's, it's. I'm not the first person that it's happened to. It happens. I don't. Again, I don't know if it happens as much anymore, but yeah. And it just really took a long time to resolve itself. And in that time you become. At least I did. I became very conscious of not wanting to be like the girl from Trouble. Like everywhere I went I was kind of like, well, I can't really start anything new because I've got this anvil that I'm carrying around with me. So it became sort of a chronic distraction to everything I did. I worked a little bit. We did, we did a, A few sort of live shows here and there, but. But starting a record, starting a new label relationship became really, really hard.
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A
So you couldn't stay with Sony under the, this kind of interweaving.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So he would have had to be signed somewhere else. And then that was taking. Oh well. And that makes a little bit more sense. I guess. I didn't understand the. Because I always knew it was a manager issue, but I didn't understand how interwoven it was.
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B
Yeah, it was, it was really, really just a lot of overlap. There were a lot of overlapping relationships between labels and production companies. And I think people, you know, the downside of it was that I really, as I said, it became a chronic distraction. And I realized early on, as well intentioned as my parents were and I'm, you know, and that is another huge learning curve that as well intentioned as my parents were, you don't know what you don't know. And as much as you're trying to be helpful and provide guidance and get the best people, you know, to surround your kid, it was really, they were, they really thought they were doing the best for me. I thought I was doing the best for me. And for a long time it worked out. And the truth is I don't have any real. I did for a while have real kind of not bitterness, but I was really upset about it. But I'm not anymore because I realized that about halfway through the whole ordeal, I realized it was truly the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't have to explain that it really was because it made me. It forced me to develop into the person I was always supposed to be all along. When you have a lot of success very early, I think it kind of stunts you, because you are trapped in sort of as all of your peers move forward and develop life skills and coping skills and learn how to cope with, you know, the slings and arrows that life brings. You're not dealing with any of that stuff. You're not paying your own bills. You're not, you know, you're not dealing with the day to day kind of stuff. And once all of the infrastructure that springs up around you fell away, I really stepped into myself and it became this sort of point of pride. I was like, I can't believe I'm not. Like, I'm doing this on my own.
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A
Right, right.
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B
And it made me aware that I was a lot more capable than I had previously thought because it becomes this kind of like, oh, you do it. I can't do it. I don't know. I can't go out there. Right. And it really strips you of a lot of your. Your confidence. Even though you are outwardly very confident, you're very successful, it really inwardly strips you of a lot of that.
- [14:23]
A
I feel like that's what a lot of people talk about. They talk about it more when it comes to actors, I think, because a lot of actors hit younger, but. But young, Young singers as well. Where you're frozen. I've heard where you get frozen at that age. Right. I became famous at 19. I never got older than 19. I never had to. Right. And that's insanely powerful. And I think that's true, oddly for everybody, because I know that we've joked and I think you do owe me an apology. I think fall from grace really let me down in that first marriage. However. However, having something pulled out from under you, whatever that thing is, because there's so many people that have gone through huge job losses, losing people, like divorces, all of those things. But when the earth literally feels like it shook and you're like, oh, this is how I'm gonna die. Like, I'm. I'm physically can't take another step. And when you finally figure out how to take that step, you're like, oh, all of that terrible stuff was supposed to happen.
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B
Yeah, all of it.
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A
You know, all of it. I. At. Whenever, whatever. I was 44 and. And now at 49, I'm like, more who I am.
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B
I'm.
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A
I never could have done TikTok. I never could have done. I never would have done any of it had that not been shook. So you figure that out about five years in and then you could kind of like, were you. Were you. I mean, you're an Artist. So, so being an artist, I don't think you stopped doing that or did that business kind of. I don't want to say crush, but it must have been a weight during that, that break of time.
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B
It initially was, but then I, I really quickly realized because I, I, it's funny, I, I know like on my Instagram it says like artist under your like, bio thing. I have a real thing about that word because I think like, artist. Really? Picasso was an artist. I make up songs in my pajamas. Like, I'm like, really?
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A
Picasso is a little crazy.
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B
That's true. We have that in common.
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A
You make you.
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B
So.
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A
Wait a minute, wait a minute. Look, we gotta go back to the getting parents, getting adults attention. And now we're gonna talk about what you don't.
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B
Because.
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A
Because you like kind of minimize what you do.
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B
Well, I guess I don't.
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A
Yourself.
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B
I guess I don't think of it as, as high art. You know, I sort of. I realize it has value. I understand that it is, you know, that you have to be. But I never really thought of myself up until this point as, As a, As a creative person. I think I always had a little bit of imposter syndrome where I kind of thought of myself as a dilettante who sang and I. Which sounds weird because it's the only thing I ever wanted to do. It's the only thing I was really, really good at. But I, But I, I think a lot of creative people have that. I think you're always walking around like, oh, man, any minute now. Yeah. So on.
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A
On your first three albums, how much writing were you doing?
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B
Probably about. It was on the first record it was about half. And the second record, it was a little more than half. The third record, it was like all, you know, all the songs were co written, so. And that was another point. I was. But it was, But I was doing it. I was relying heavily on other people, right. And I was doing it really to fulfill. I had a publishing deal, so I was doing it to like fulfill a quota. It was something that was. I never thought of myself as someone who was driven in the morning to wake up and write songs. And I knew people who were like. I knew people who were not doing the other side of it. So I knew people who were not performers, who were great, gifted songwriters. And I thought, I'm not really in their league, and I'm still not. But I, but one of the things I realized was that my contribution as a songwriter was. Had value because without it, the records don't have it's just like, you know, what you do has value because without it, without your voice, behind doesn't really have a sense of identity. Right. And that's what was giving the records their whole kind of bloom, their whole sense of identity. So that was a big thing. But I was lucky. I realized that earlier in the process. Then I realized that it was the best thing that had ever happened to me. I was creative all the way through the process. It was just people weren't hearing it right. I just wasn't. I didn't have any outlet for it.
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A
Right. I. It's so incredible to understand how you view yourself and then how that's transformed. But this album, the last album. Yeah, right. Not a Love Song, by the way, is my favorite. This last album, it was all you.
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B
This last album was all me. And it. It started out. I mean, I'll call you for the next one.
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A
I'm just saying there could have been.
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B
A small rapping part, like a triangle.
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A
Solo triangle. Just one or two hits. It's all. I'm asking Amanda. The bar is not high, you know, so. Yeah. So you wrote this whole thing?
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B
Yeah, wrote the whole thing and took a long time because we wrote it over a long. I wrote it over a long period of time, and we made it over a long period of time because I didn't have anything else to do. So I was sort of like, well, we can take our time with this. And eventually it got to a point where I was like, I'm not making this for a label. Nobody's waiting for it. My fans, you know, have stopped waiting for it. Nobody knows where I am.
- [19:32]
A
I disagree, actually. I have to say, we were all waiting.
- [19:38]
B
That really did shock me when I came back. How I real. One of the things that really surprised me, honestly, is how meaningful. You know, songs like Dark Horse and Fall From Great, all those. All those records had been two people, like they really were. They had marked momentous occasions in their lives with them. They had passed the love of the songs onto their kids, and we're bringing their kids to the shows now. That, to me, was kind of. Because when you're in it, you don't really. I don't think you realize it.
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A
You just thought, I'm famous for now.
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B
Yeah. And it will go away. And I didn't even think about that. I just sort of thought, like, oh, the record is. My thing was always like, how is the record doing? Is the record doing well? Is the record. Are we getting to travel to other places? Are we getting to do Shows in front of new audiences. We were traveling a lot, A lot. So I didn't have really the time to absorb the kind of connection that the people really had with the music. It was always great. You go to like a place like Japan and people are singing the lyrics and you're like, oh, my God, I.
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A
Can'T believe you know these words.
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B
But. But it didn't really register with me as like a 22 or 23 year old that, like, they're doing that because it's meaningful to them.
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A
Yeah. You know, and so now you have a greater appreciation of that. You can see that.
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B
Yeah. It's amazing.
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A
What's your favorite song of all time?
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B
Of mine?
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A
Anybody's.
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B
Anybody's.
- [20:53]
A
Anybody's.
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B
I can't tell you because I'm about to record it.
- [21:00]
A
Oh, gosh. I'm about to record. Just whisper it. I won't.
- [21:06]
B
It's a great, great song. And it's actually. It's a song. The story behind it is fantastic. And I can't tell you yet, but I promise I'll come back and tell you. I will.
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A
Okay.
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B
Well.
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A
Okay.
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B
And it's. It's. It's a song that I always wanted to record and it got. Let. It actually got left off the first record. We didn't. I didn't demo it, but it was a song I fought to get on the first record and I lost the fight to get it on the first record. And I'm gonna get to record it now in a way that's so much better. And I'm so excited about it.
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A
I didn't even know what Sean to that.
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B
On the worst.
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A
Okay, Favorite song you've written.
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B
Favorite song I've written.
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A
And I know as a. As an artist, as a. What would you call yourself then? If you never called yourself, would it be perform?
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B
Performer. Yeah.
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A
Is that where you feel the most you on stage?
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B
Yeah, I think so, yeah.
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A
Performer?
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B
Singer. I don't know. Musical act, Music. Ventriloquist dummy.
- [21:55]
A
Somebody throw her some balls to juggle.
- [21:57]
B
Exactly. Okay. Favorite song of mine. Favorite song that I've written. This is. Well, my.
- [22:07]
A
This is the stumper right here.
- [22:09]
B
I really like. I love singing. If I didn't have you, which is off the second record. It's a ballad.
- [22:13]
A
Yep.
- [22:14]
B
Because that is a song that has a lot of meaning for me. It's a song. Well, it's a. It's a. It's a love song. Yeah, It. It grew out of another song. The guy I wrote it with, Eric Bazilian, he's The guy who wrote what if God Was One of Us? Stranger on a Bus. There you go. And he had this song sort of half written lying around, and he brought it in, and I loved it. And I was like, we have to do something with this. And it wound up being a song that we wound up touring with. And ironically, today is the day that she died. We wound up touring with Whitney Houston. And it's been 13 years. Yeah, 13 years ago today. And she was, you know, somebody I grew up. I mean, every singer, you know.
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A
Sure.
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B
I grew up with her posters on my wall. So to be on the tour was, like, unbelievable. And I didn't care, you know, All I wanted to do was watch her show every night.
- [23:06]
A
Sure.
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B
So on the. We were on the road for a few months with them, and on the sort of second to last night of the tour, we were in Germany. And that song, if I Didn't have you, it starts with a whistle. It's very hard to replicate a whistle live, so the whistle's on tape. So every night I would sort of turn around some water, and on this particular night, I turned her and I turned back, and she was standing right by me right now, her and Bobby Brown. And she came out, and I pass out. I almost did. And I could feel, like, the blood rushing from my head to my feet.
- [23:41]
A
Did all the water go from your.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah, I was just like. And she took my mic and she introduced me and thanked me for. She said, you know, amanda Martin, thank you for being on the road. And the audience applauded. She put the mic on the stand, and she turned to hug me. And as she leaned in to hug me, she said, goddamn, I love this song. And it was a song that I had written. Oh, wow. And it was to me. I mean, to hear her say that she loved the song that. That I knew that I had written and not just. It would have been meaningful enough if she had said, like, oh, I like the way you sing that song.
- [24:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:20]
B
That's nice. But it was like to hear her say that you love the song. So that song, to me, every time I sing that song, I think about that.
- [24:27]
A
And you didn't think in that moment you were an artist. Picasso, Amanda Marshall, Whitney Houston just said it.
- [24:35]
B
All right.
- [24:35]
A
You should have had a light bulb moment at that moment. What is the hardest part about being in the industry? Being like, whatever. Being who you are, like, in this. Because I can tell you bad teacher stories. Like, I mean, like, what's the heart? What's the part where you're like that thing.
- [24:52]
B
I think the. I think. And maybe I'm alone in this, but I think the greatest lesson that I have learned is that you really have to remember not to take yourself seriously. Like, relax. Like, we're not curing cancer. This is music.
- [25:07]
A
Sure.
- [25:08]
B
It's a universal language that allows us to go out in front of a wide audience if you're lucky and you get to travel and you get to meet people from all over the world who connect with for whatever reason. And I. And I think when you. When I say, you have to remember not to take it personally. You know, I walk into meet and greets all the time.
- [25:26]
A
Yeah.
- [25:27]
B
And people are overwhelmed. And I know that feeling. I've met people. You know, I've been starstruck. I've been overwhelmed. You should have seen it earlier. I've met people.
- [25:35]
A
Embarrassing.
- [25:36]
B
Oh, my God. But I've met people whose work is meaningful to me and. But I also know that it's the. It's the. It's about the work. It's not really. It's not so much about me. And I think if you get in your head too much with it, I think that really. That messes you up.
- [25:53]
A
I think it is about. I get what you're saying because you're trying to say, listen, there's. There's no sort of hierarchical standing here. But I think it is about you specifically. I think there's a lot of artists out there where that connection isn't as apparent. But I think the way that you sing your music. I would argue that every single fan would disagree with what you said.
- [26:17]
B
Well, I mean, certainly, it's.
- [26:20]
A
I even have kids. Students now.
- [26:22]
B
Yeah.
- [26:22]
A
16 years old. Like, they knew that I was coming to do this. And I play a little bit of your music and I hear them humming it. 16 years old. Humming it down. You know, Joe, that song was really. Can we listen to it again? And. But there's an off. I still go back to. And the people that I'm drawn to. There's an authenticity about the way you bring it to light that makes it about you. I don't. I understand. Like, it's not, you know, but do you. Do you struggle with criticism?
- [26:52]
B
I used to.
- [26:54]
A
Again, who's criticism?
- [26:57]
B
No, I used to. I used to really. It used to really wound me. I used to get really. And I hate even saying that out loud because I'm somebody who's like, no, it didn't bother me. That's fine. But it used to. It really used to bother me. And it doesn't so much anymore. I, I, I honestly. And I'm not saying this to, like, I'm not saying this out of ego. I haven't, I haven't read a lot of criticism recently, so, so maybe that's why. But it used to really, it used to really, really bother me. But I think the older you get, the more you start to realize that's not really about you either. Like, if you, and if you buy into the hype, if you buy into the really greats. That's why I don't read reviews. People tell me about them, and I'm always thrilled, like, if somebody like the show or if people, you know, like the songs or. But if you buy into all that, you got to buy into this other stuff, too. And I kind of feel like.
- [27:45]
A
Yeah, you know, do you think that's an element? Like, we're a very similar age. I feel like you get to a certain age and you really do wish you could transfer it back to when you were 20. Do you think that's something about our age and what we've gone through and now perspective? Do you think anybody who's 20 could possibly understand that?
- [28:03]
B
No. Yeah. No.
- [28:05]
A
I mean, and I'm natural. You can't.
- [28:07]
B
Like, you, you, you, you shouldn't, you should, like, criticism should bother you in your 20s. And, you know, I, Yeah, I think it's, it's a natural part of your development. I mean, one of the things that I really. And I don't know why. I'll tell you, actually, I do know why. I'll tell you why.
- [28:25]
A
I'm excited straight up. When I was, the philosophy and I'm embarrassed psychology stuff.
- [28:29]
B
I'm embarrassed to admit how long this took, but it took till I was in my, like, late 20s, early 30s. And it was during that period that when I was sort of laying fallow, I wasn't really doing anything.
- [28:38]
A
Pause. What word did you just use?
- [28:41]
B
Oh, fallow. I was laying fallow. You know, like when crops, when they lay fallow, you lay the field fallow. Come on, man, you're a teacher.
- [28:47]
A
Listen, I don't know everything. You sound like the kids that ask me to explain how a battery works.
- [28:54]
B
You know how a battery works. It's a whole different interview now. Some things I need to know.
- [29:00]
A
Get us an orange. I've seen that been done. Okay, so, but yeah, so when I.
- [29:04]
B
Was doing nothing, I was laying fallow, and somebody called me, Somebody called somebody, somebody found who my age. I still had an agent, and somebody called my agent and they wanted me to do something, and I didn't want to do it. And previous to this, I would have had, like, a manager or, you know, who could say no. But I didn't. I didn't have any people. So I was on the phone with my dad one day, and I was telling him about. And I was like, oh, my God. And I think they gave them my email, and I think I got an email, and now I don't know what to do. What should I do? Who am I going to have calls? Somebody has to call them back. And my. And there was, like, silence on the other end of the phone. And my dad, I said, are you still there? My dad said, what the hell is the matter with you?
- [29:48]
A
Parents are the best.
- [29:49]
B
I said, what do you mean? He said, you're, like, 31. Pick up the phone. Like, call them back. What are you so scared of? And, like, in that moment, I was like, oh, right, yeah, yeah.
- [30:05]
A
Like, what.
- [30:05]
B
What am I doing? Why am I like this? And it had. It had seeped into every area of my life. Now, some of that is. Some of that is valuable. Some of that is protective. Some of that is, like, be aware of your surroundings and. Right. Some of it comes from bad experiences, but a lot of it is just people telling you that you are, you know, like, oh, my God. Is, oh, no, we'll do that for you. You shouldn't have to do that. Right. And once you get past that and you kind of let that go, it's. It's. It's. It's not so scary. It's not that big of a deal.
- [30:40]
A
Do you think saying no is a problem to people?
- [30:43]
B
Not now.
- [30:44]
A
Think. Yeah, we don't listen.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah.
- [30:48]
A
We don't care. I'll say no to everybody.
- [30:49]
B
Yeah.
- [30:49]
A
But. Yeah, but do you think it's also a problem to say no back in the day? Because there's an element of people, like, I think women, and I really want to talk to you about the difference about being a woman in this industry and a woman in life in general right now. But do you think that we're taught very, very young to be cooperative, to be a team player, to be, you know, I'm gonna probably take a guess, even though I don't know, more of that story with your manager and there was this sort of dependent relationship that went on that would have been very comforting and very rational for you to step into? And so, yeah, today it's easy. But do you. Do you look back and go, there was a lot of things when I was 25. That I really didn't want to do, but I just did them.
- [31:44]
B
No, I mean, I can't say there were a lot of things I didn't want to do that I did or that anybody forced me to do. I will say that there were times when things were explained to me in a way that made it seem like a really good idea. And then you internalize that and you think, this is a great idea, I should do this.
- [32:03]
A
Right.
- [32:04]
B
Because why? Because it was my idea. It wasn't really your idea. You know what I mean? Sure. So there's, there's some, There was some of that and some of it is just that you do the best you can. And listen, I'm, I'm, I'm not here to. I think, I think most of the people I've been very lucky, most of the people I have come in contact with throughout my career have done the best they could.
- [32:26]
A
Sure.
- [32:26]
B
People are doing the best they can. And I think for the most part, people make the decisions, for the most part that they think, you know, like, we're all in this together and we're all on a team and we're trying to do the best we can to do what we think in this moment is going to be best for you. But I also think that it's really, really easy to fall into a mindset where people are doing things for you all the time. Like, and it's. And then you get the added bonus of that whole passive aggressive thing. I was like, well, it wasn't me. It was, you know, it was my agent, it was my manager. It was him. It was. And that makes you, it makes you a bad leader. It makes you a bad leader because a leader, you know, within the confines of whether you're fronting a band, whether you're funding a management company, whether. Whatever it is that, you know, it is the ability to, number one, say, like, I don't know, maybe we should ask someone who knows or. Well, it's not really me you have to talk to so and so. Sure. Right. People who fear sort of. And it doesn't have to be like a big confrontation. I don't, like, I don't want to answer that question. Or. No, I'm good. I don't want to talk about that. Sure. Or no, I don't think we're gonna be able to do that. But when you're 25, it's really hard. It's a lot easier to be like, well, you can talk to my manager.
- [33:48]
A
And work it out. I, you know, I think that you, you just tapped on something that's so powerful. The idea that if you want to be a good leader, you have to learn to do the hard things. If you're not going to do the hard things, you're not going to ever move from that place that you started in. Yeah, right. And until I think everybody, until you're shoved into the hard things, who the heck wants to do them?
- [34:11]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [34:11]
A
Nobody wants to do them. If I can get somebody, look, my mortgage is coming up. I'm like, who can I?
- [34:17]
B
Who can I?
- [34:19]
A
You know what I mean? I don't want to do the hard things. I don't want to have the hard convers conversations. I don't want to fight a speeding, like just anything. If I could avoid it, I would. Absolutely. And I think that's funnily enough going back to those codependent relationships that I think we all find us, whether it's friends, whether it's a partner, whether it's a man, it doesn't matter. You offshoot something and when the, when that relationship is going to end, I wonder how much we're really fearful of losing that person.
- [34:47]
B
Yeah.
- [34:48]
A
Or, or losing the person that dealt with the mortgage or whatever the thing. Yeah, whatever the thing is. Right. Because I think we get very comfortable in that. And there's a level, there's a, there's a pretense of safety and it makes us feel warm and pleasant.
- [35:03]
B
And I think also when you're. One of the big things for me was when you're younger, you think you're the only person this has ever happened to, and then you're the only person who's going through this. You have no frame of reference. And it's not until you get to be a little older and you look back and you realize like every, everybody's.
- [35:19]
A
Dealing with the same thing.
- [35:21]
B
Yeah.
- [35:21]
A
And I think, I mean, shifting into. You're jumping back in, you have a new album, you've been on tour, you're writing a new single, you can't talk. But this is a brave new world right now because of social media. How does that feel for somebody who, you know, in the, in the late 80s, the 90s, that's a whole different genre. Right. Nobody knew anything about you. A little blurbs in like something Entertainment Tonight or something, but not like now. Right. So how does that, how do you feel about that?
- [35:53]
B
I know it's, it is, it's really funny that you're here today because we've been talking. That's. I've Spent my afternoon talking about this, about social media. You know, my. Initially I thought, I thought it was. You're right. I did not initially recognize when I first came back into sort of the public eye. It was, it was tricky because I was like, well, I'm a really private person and I don't really want that to change. And I want to be able to sort of have a meaningful relationship with the people who like the work that I'm doing. And you also want to be able to communicate with those people. But I don't really want to communicate with them in a way that's like too personal. And there's also this weird like self protection thing that kicks in because you're worried about your own sort of safety and security. What I love about it is the creative aspect of it. I think it is an enormously valuable tool. And if you're not, if you're not on stage, you can be doing something that is incredibly satisfying and creative and meaningful to people, which is exactly what this is. You know what I mean? I think it is so, it's so valuable and so great that so many people are able to be creative and directly connected to. This sounds weird, but connect. Directly connected to an audience. Yeah, right.
- [37:16]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:17]
B
That, that part really excites me. I love that.
- [37:20]
A
And I think, Yeah, I think directly can. And nobody's. And I don't know how it works for, for obviously other celebrities and other artists, but like there's no intermediary or there doesn't have to be, you know. And so for an average person who's never been on stage, who's never done this and never picks up, you know, their video camera, you, you could be turned into a star like the next day.
- [37:43]
B
Yeah.
- [37:43]
A
Just because you resonate. So the, the gatekeeper aspect has kind of.
- [37:49]
B
Yeah. Gone. Yeah.
- [37:50]
A
Like it's gone for lots of different reasons, but this has really pushed it into overdrive. Right.
- [37:55]
B
And at the beginning I was really like, I missed the gatekeeper. Can we bring the gatekeeper back? Because something there, I will admit, I don't know if you feel this way, but like sometimes you feel like you've had a relationship with somebody, whether it's a musician or whoever. And then through the, the power of social media, you start to realize, oh, I wish I knew less. I would like to know less.
- [38:17]
A
Is there any way I could go.
- [38:18]
B
Back to knowing less? Because I was happy with less.
- [38:21]
A
Sure.
- [38:22]
B
You know what I mean?
- [38:23]
A
Yeah, you don't want it. You're heroes. You want.
- [38:25]
B
Yeah, I'm like, don't don't, don't. Yeah, yeah.
- [38:28]
A
No, just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, But I think it's funny. I think that's. You're right because I think. But what it does is it really equalizes the playing field.
- [38:40]
B
Yes.
- [38:41]
A
It, it, it allows people, average people to go, oh, they can step in it just as easily as I can. Now, now when you step into it, you know, Entertainment Tonight reports on it, but it's different. I get that. And so the, the, the tidal wave that you would face, do you ever find that people with social media, and I know that you probably post a lot, but aren't necessarily, you know, interacting as much fan expectation of you? Do you find it's risen in terms.
- [39:12]
B
Of what I'm posting or how often.
- [39:14]
A
I'm posting or how often you're posting or if you'll interact at all or anything like that?
- [39:19]
B
Oh, yeah. I don't know.
- [39:22]
A
You might use it in a different way.
- [39:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I don't. Huh. Yeah, that's. It's a good, it is a good question. I don't really know. It's, it's funny because I'm thinking about this a lot lately. I don't know what people's expectations are, honestly, for like, for my interactions on social media. I think people have, people come into your, they come onto your channels with a certain, especially when you've been away, like I have. They have sort of a predetermined expectation, their own expectation of what they think they're going to find.
- [39:55]
A
Yeah.
- [39:55]
B
And that used to really kind of make me feel very self conscious because I used to think, I don't want to disappoint anybody. I don't want to make, you know, it's like it. That's the thing that celebrity does anyway is that every room you walk into, people already feel like they know something about you.
- [40:12]
A
Yeah.
- [40:12]
B
Right. So social media is sort of like a bigger version of that room. So in the beginning I think I was like, well, I really don't want to disappoint anybody. But what I have found is the more, the more authentically yourself you are, the more people immediately recognize that. And the people who will really gravitate towards you, they really gravitate towards you, you know what I mean? And they will share that with their friends and say, oh, you know, oh, this is so me. This is so us. This, this, whatever it is. Whether you're re sharing a joke or you're telling them about a piece of yourself. I think people really, really, they can Tell the difference between. Which sounds weird because social media is all fake, right? But I think. But I think mine, yours. But I think people can tell. But I do. I do think people can tell the difference between, like, what is real and what is, you know, what's authentic and what isn't authentic, real and fake media.
- [41:07]
A
Do you think that's getting back to. So going back to music, do you think it's shifting sort of a sense of music back to record it off the floor? You're not going to get 18 takes. I mean this metaphorically, as maybe a little bit literally.
- [41:23]
B
I need 18 takes.
- [41:25]
A
But. But do you know what I mean?
- [41:27]
B
Like, we.
- [41:27]
A
We know there's so much production that can go into it, and you get to that live show and you're like, that's not the album, you know, and so do you think it's forcing a more authentic, you know, like, you know, Queen did everything live off the floor. We do it in a take. That's what we record. Let's have a nice day. That's it. Do you think it's forcing more of that?
- [41:50]
B
More? Yes, all. No, I think it's forcing some. And I think that I'm constantly shocked by anybody younger than me who plays an instrument because I'm like, wow, you learned to play an instrument.
- [42:04]
A
Good for you.
- [42:05]
B
Like, really, really. You're not. You're not just pressing buttons. You're not just in Pro Tools. That's amazing. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I'm constantly surprised that. That the. Of the enduring power of the learning process. People are really. They want to learn how to play piano, they want to learn how to play instruments. And I think that is a testament to the fact that kids crave that kind of tactile thing. They really do want something to bang on.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah, right.
- [42:31]
B
Make noise. The. The. Yeah. I mean, it's not forcing everybody to do it. It's not. It's not. It's not stamping out, you know, automated production music. I am all for a healthy mix of the two, I think. You know, I think if you. It's. To me, it's the same as anything else. It's the same as editing or, you know, photoshopping your pictures. If it's. A producer said to me once, this was in the 90s. It was when nothing compares to you. Sinead O'Connor came out and we were riding in his car one day, he said, you know, the song came on the radio and he said, you know, this. This vocal take is like an unphotoshopped Magazine cover. He was like, and that's. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, the reason it's so gripping is because it's imperfect, right? And if they had auto tuned the take, it would have been perfect, but it wouldn't be real.
- [43:36]
A
Which is why people, when, when you buy, whenever I buy an album, right? And the live version is always, always the version, you're like, oh my God, you forgot your own line. Yeah, it's in, it's amazing. And you let the people sing it or you mess up or, you know, you start on the wrong note or in the wrong key or whatever. And that's in my head, that's what people, I feel like are a little bit more authentically draw because you're right. It's the imperfections that make it interesting, that make it compelling and that make it human. And the more human it is, I just feel like.
- [44:16]
B
Yeah. And it's one of the reasons why, it's one of the reasons why I believe very strongly, you know, every show that we do something has to be different. Every show that we do, I do something. And whether it's an improvisational, you know, whether we're mashing up a song, we do that. I do that a lot where I'm very kind of off the cuff and I'll start singing another song in the middle of a song. But it's always, but there always has to be something different because to me, and I actually, and I. One of the people that I. That really I sort of stole that from was Prince. Prince was a guy who had that innate ability. He could do anything, he could play anything, he could sing anything. But you always knew when you were going to see him live. And I was lucky enough to see him live a bunch of times. And you always knew when you were going to see him live that it was just for you like that, that night, just for that audience, right? And you were never. And you were going to tell your friends about it. And now people can record it on their phones and they can show their friends. But it was so it was, it was special because it was, it was a one off you were never going to get to see. There you go.
- [45:20]
A
Does that drive you crazy at concerts?
- [45:23]
B
No.
- [45:23]
A
Watching, just building?
- [45:25]
B
No. But it was weird. When we first came back and we start. And I started touring, I was shocked at the number of people who would like feel comfortable walking up to the edge of the stage with their. Or as close as they could get, like with their phones, like in the middle of the show like, hey, yeah, can you say hi to my. Like, what? This is what I'm like, I'm in the. I'm singing, I'm in the middle of it.
- [45:48]
A
We like to bring back some boundaries.
- [45:50]
B
What is happening now? Yeah, can we take a selfie? What? I'm like, this is.
- [45:56]
A
That's what I'm saying. Expectations have shifted.
- [45:59]
B
Yeah. But I think that's also because a lot of people are used to watching things on a screen now. So I think it takes people a minute to adjust. Like. No, no, this is actually happening like here in real time. Yeah, don't, don't respond like that.
- [46:11]
A
Now. I would say. Well, look, now she's telling us five more minutes. I asked her not to come, but she's sitting over here watching us now. She said five more minutes.
- [46:21]
B
Minutes, Fine. I have a big question for you.
- [46:23]
A
In five minutes, we're in a very unique moment in time. I think politically, socially, a lot of your music, if, if not all actually very much focused on relationships. Very much focused on love or what. Very, you know, that kind of situation. You've never. And correct me if I'm wrong and I'm really going to stick my foot in my beat. You've never really, you've never really jumped into the politics or. I've never really heard you speak on it in any way, shape or form. Is that purposeful? Is that not where your passion lies, is do you speak differently? And what do you think? If you've never been political, can you please be political here? I'd like to know who you voted for. I'd like to. So you're happy how we should vote in Ontario?
- [47:15]
B
Standby. Exactly.
- [47:16]
A
It's coming.
- [47:17]
B
It's coming. You're half right. I mean, I, my, my records have been, I would say a solid 70, 30 mix of probably, you know, love songs and the relationship stuff. And then 30 of it is like quiet kind of socio. Political commentary that I slide in under the radar.
- [47:34]
A
Sure. I'm trying to remember. Give me an example.
- [47:38]
B
Shades of Gray. Double Agent.
- [47:41]
A
Double Agent. Yes, that's the one. I was.
- [47:42]
B
So they're all. There's a song on this record called God Forbid, Heavy lifting called God Forbid. Yeah, there's a song on this. There's another song on this record called Special. Right. They're all. So they're all kind of, if not political, but sort of social commentary.
- [47:57]
A
Social commentary, yeah.
- [47:59]
B
My take on politics and music is this. I think, I think for me, this. And this goes back to people's expectations. Yeah, I think My politics, pretty obvious. And I. And it's funny, I've talked to other musicians about this, and there are those people who feel really, you know, that everybody has to know their opinion about everything, and they want to help you out and give you guidance, and it's very important to vote and on who to vote for. And then there are people who never talk about that stuff and they don't want to talk about it. I'm somewhere in the middle, I think. I mean, I'm here and I think my politics are probably. I think you can probably tell just by looking at me what my politics are and about what I'm singing about. It's a. It's a really delicate balance because I'm also. I'm of two minds. I'm very, very, very. In my personal and sort of private life, I'm very, very passionate and very, very outspoken, and I have very, very strong opinions. I am also in my kind of I don't care what people think era. So I'm kind of like, really, you think the earth is flat? Good for you. Yeah, good luck. God bless. God bless. Right. I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not here to, like, I'm not driving around with a bumper sticker on my car. Good for you. Good luck. Right. And, yeah, and so I'm sort of.
- [49:16]
A
Somewhere in the middle.
- [49:16]
B
I say that is one aspect of social media. We were just talking about this a minute ago. That is one aspect of social media that drives me crazy because it's a really hard line to walk. On the one hand, you know, you want. You want to try to be helpful, and sometimes people feel that they're being helpful by telling everybody what their opinion is. On the other hand, you know, on the other hand, are you really being helpful? Is anything going, you know, are you really changing people's minds? I don't know. I. I personally have a very George Carlin take on humanity. And I think it comes from. Part of me is, you know, to me, he was a guy, and I am very much like this. I think the most cynical and kind of misanthropic among us are those who have been the most heartbroken by the reality of the human condition. Right. And it's so easy to kind of write off humanity, but secretly, you're really rooting for people. You know, it's the people who love people. George Carlin used to say, I love people. I love people individually. It's when they get together in groups and they start to clot. They act that I can't take it. It's true. It's true.
- [50:31]
A
We gotta go, cuz like, I'm just saying, it's all her over there. And I'm gonna stop recording this so Amanda can tell me what song she's gonna record after this. She's gonna whisper it right here. Thanks for coming. We'll see you next Tuesday. Same bad time, same bad channel. Amanda, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Bye, guys. Dismissed.