← Unlocked with Savannah Chrisley
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B
welcome back to this week's episode of Unlocked. We are going to kind of continue on with our self help vibes because that's the place I'm at in my life right now and I'm super excited for this next conversation. As you guys know, I don't love going into podcast overly prepared because I feel like it takes some authenticity away from things. So I have Thais right perfect Tyce Gibson on and I am so excited because she is the founder of the Personal Development School, creator of Integrated Attachment Theory and a best selling author. And you also have your podcast host of the Thais Gibson podcast.
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A
Yes. So loving me this.
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B
I love things like this to try to help me figure out like why I am the way that I am.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because I hate not having an answer for something that may be something style, but that's just, I don't know, I feel like as, as an adult it's your responsibility to like come to terms with who you are and understand who you are. Because if you don't, unfortunately I feel like other people end up being a casualty to your Even if you didn't intend for that to happen.
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A
I love that you said that. I am somebody who believes tremendously in radical accountability. Like I think we go through life and I think it's so easy to blame your conditioning or blame your upbringing if there were hard things. But if you look at the group of people who constantly blame, blame, blame, they stay very stuck and they don't grow. You can't be blaming people and growing at the same time. It's not possible. And so I always tell people like, hey, it's not your fault if there's hard things that are a part of your conditioning, but it is your Responsibility. So I love that you said that, because I'm very aligned.
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B
I hate nothing more than when you have, like, all these adult children, as I like to call it, walking around and whining and complaining, and I'm like, hey, come to terms with your crap and, like, fix it so you can then live a healthier life. I may be a little harsh.
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A
No, but honestly, if you don't, I think one of the harder parts is that then your parents are running your brain, like, and I don't think that's what people want. But if you are looking at, okay, what did I get conditioned with? Or, what is my own individual programming growing up, then what ends up happening? And not just saying for you, but, like, for human beings, right? It's like, well, if you didn't like that your mom did ABC or your dad did xyz, it's gonna imprint your subconscious mind. And then if you don't heal it, then, like those wounds or those fears or those unmet needs, that literally runs how you're gonna show up as an adult. And then you're not really making your own choices. Your conditioning is from the parents who gave you that conditioning.
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B
And from what I've read, you're a firm believer that how you grow up and your experiences and the actions or reactions of your caregivers kind of imprint how you're gonna see life.
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A
Exactly. So we all go through life, and we have something called a negativity bias first. So this means that our subconscious mind is wired to hang on to negative things more than positive. I always give people the analogy that if you go into the woods and you see a bear and a bear chases you and you run away and thank goodness you're safe, but you go into the woods the next day. Well, what does your mind do? Your mind's, like, bracing for the bear. If the trees move in the wind, you're like, the bear's coming. So we're wired to hang on to that negative experience, project it back out onto our world over and over again. And we also don't remember when we're running away from the bear. The. Like, the beautiful flower next to the bear. We remember, like, the bear's teeth. Like, we hold on to those negative things. And so because we're wired that way, if we have experiences in childhood where we felt abandoned or we felt betrayed or we felt unloved or not good enough or unworthy or trapped. Like, if we felt these feelings, that is going to imprint our conditioning. And then our subconscious mind is to project that Onto everyone and everything because it's trying to brace you for it. And that means if you felt trapped as a kid, you're going to be pushing people away all the time. Or if you felt abandoned, you're. You're going to be in a position where you're like, holding on so tightly. And then ultimately that is our conditioning that's getting brought up everywhere.
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B
Wow. So, ah, yeah, I'm just like replaying my childhood in my mind right now. I'm like, oh, this makes sense why I'm the way that I am. No, I think it's just you don't really realize. It's like the book, like the body keeps a score, right? Like, you don't really realize, obviously, just any little thing that happens how your nervous system, I feel like, just gets stunted 100%.
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A
Okay. So I have this, like, little bone to pick a tiny bit with this. Okay. So people will do a lot of nervous system work. We go through five pillars of healing your attachment style and your childhood. And that's important. That's actually our third pillar. But what people have to understand first is that it's your subconsciously stored perceptions and imprints that are activating your nervous system. And that's how the process works. So, for example, let's say you have this wound from feeling. Let's say somebody felt criticized as a child all the time and that they made that mean I'm not good enough. And then they carry that stored perception that's their personal bear in the woods. And they go into a networking event full of people. Well, what's gonna happen? They're gonna start thinking thoughts like, what if people think I'm not interesting enough or attractive enough or clever enough or fill in the lengths enough? Almost like if you have a tree, tree trunk, these are these tree branches springing off of it. I'm not good enough is this core belief you adopted from your childhood. Now you have all these thoughts that are coming off of that core belief. When we start feeling the emotions connected to those thoughts, like, how do you feel when you walk into the event and you're like, oh, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. You feel insecure, you feel stressed, you feel ashamed. Then those emotions are made up of neurochemical reactions like cortisol, norepinephrine, adrenaline. And that then causes your body to go, oh, I have to brace. Now it's time to go into sympathetic nervous system. And so now you get into this upregulated mode. And then a lot of People do this nervous system work where they're like, good, regulate your nervous system. Regulate your nervous system. Do the breath work, do the meditation, or do the polyvagal theory work and somatic processing? And it's like, that's great. That's going to help bring you back down to baseline. But you're not rewire.
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B
Getting to the root problem.
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A
Exactly. And if you don't rewire those core wounds and perceptions that you keep projecting, then you go through life and you're. It's like a constant band aid. Feel triggered or dysregulated. Regulate my nervous system. Feel triggered again. Regulate my nervous system. It's like, well, how about just rewire the triggers so that you're not going through life constantly feeling triggered by everything. Yes.
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B
And so when it comes to like the attachment styles, because I feel like that's just how you get through life. Right. You're a certain way. What for people that don't really understand this, what are attachment styles?
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A
Yeah. So everybody has an attachment style, and there are four. And your attachment style is a subconscious set of rules that you've been conditioned with about how to give and receive love, how to communicate, how to connect. So think of it as being your subconscious set of rules for love. I always give people the analogy that if you have a different attachment style than somebody else, it's like sitting down to play a board game. And you have the rules for Scrabble and they have the rules for Monopoly. Like, you can want it to go well, but like, there's gonna be a lot of miscommunication because you expect totally different things. So every person has one. There's four. The first attachment style is the secure attachment style. They get a lot of healthy behaviors in childhood, a lot of approach oriented behaviors from their parents. Their parents are stable, consistent, attuned to the child. And so children learn like, oh, I can communicate openly. I can be really transparent and lean on people. I can trust that people will be there for me. And they learn to feel comfortable being vulnerable because it's met with a lot of positive reinforcement and attunement. They learn to communicate and work through conflict. And securely attached adults report being much happier in their relationships, like literally more fulfilled. And they report having longer lasting relationships. And also the divorce rate moves in lockstep with the secure attachment rate. So when the secure attachment rate increases, the divorce rate decreases. And if the divorce rate. Yeah, if the secure attachment rate decreases, the divorce rate is increasing. In other words, what that's telling us from a 30,000 foot view is that probably people who are insecurely attached have a much greater chance of divorcing and that they really go hand in hand. Yeah.
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B
So you have secure attachment.
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A
Yep. Then we have three insecure attachment styles. Okay. So you can think of them as being along a continuum. At one end of the continuum is the anxious attachment style. Anxious attachment styles, they have a lot of either real or perceived abandonment in childhood. Real abandonment is the obvious. It's like, okay, mom left, was never around, or parents divorced, dad left, didn't really come back, a parent passed away. Like, these types of things that you would see. Perceived abandonment. When something is repeated enough at a subconscious level to us over time, it has a very similar impact as a big T trauma. So small T trauma, if it's enough, will have a similar impact. So what could happen is, in perceived abandonment, you might see, like, parents are very loving, but they work all the time. They're working really long hours. So a child grows up in this environment of thinking, okay, love is here. Oh, love is taken away. They're gone. Oh, love is back. Okay, it's taken away. So a child constantly braces for love being taken away. And then we were talking a moment ago about the bear in the woods, the conditioned biggest triggers. And honestly, your triggers are like your baggage you bring into relationships, for lack of a nicer term. The biggest triggers, the wounds, the things that are gonna cause the anxious attachment cell to be so dysregulated as an adult. Accidentally sabotage relationships. A lot of the time, they fear being abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough, Unloved and unsafe if they lose somebody or somebody pulls away. And so what happens is we have this kind of chain reaction of sense where if somebody feels like I'm going to be abandoned, well, then they cope in a certain way.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So then they're like, oh, let me hold on really tight. And anxious attachment cells. They end up changing all of their behaviors to do everything they can to maintain proximity and to avoid somebody pulling away from them. And this looks like people pleasing. This looks like them burning themselves out and running themselves into the ground. And eventually that fosters so much resentment and frustration in their relationships, and they end up feeling like, gosh, I just like people please my way into oblivion, but they also tend to choose emotionally unavailable partners.
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B
Hmm. Okay. See, that's. I feel like, is it possible to, like, have a little bit of a few?
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A
Yeah. Whenever people say that, there's a decent chance that they're actually the fearful avoidance. So we can talk about that at the End. Yeah, we'll see. It's not always the case, but when people are feeling like that. Let me. Let me go through the other ones and then tell me what you think. Okay.
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B
Yes.
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A
So the other thing that's really important to note before we go to the other, too, is just that the anxious attachment style, they will always go out of their way. Like, if they feel anxious, they're always trying to maintain proximity. They're always trying to get closer. Dismissive avoidance, which will go to the sort of the other end of the continuum. Now, they can still feel anxiety. They can still feel worried about what people think of them. They can still people please a little bit. But at the end of the day, when they're feeling that way, they will work to create distance between themselves and other people.
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B
See, I do that.
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A
Yeah. So that's interesting, because sometimes people hear like, oh, yeah, yeah, I get what it's like to feel anxious or afraid of, you know, somebody that I care about pulling away. That's a very human thing. Anxious attachment styles are, like, constantly thinking that. They're constantly thinking that they can't sit. And if they're in a relationship with a partner and that partner hasn't texted them back in a couple hours, they're like, oh, my God, we need to talk through this right now. Like, they'll text a lot.
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B
They'll call a lot.
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A
They'll express a lot of clingy and needy behaviors. And they're also the type that if there's a conflict, they're like, we have to work it out right now. And you'll often see other attitudes.
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B
I have a little bit of that, too.
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A
Okay, so we'll go through. We'll go through all of them, and you can tell me what you think at the end. So the flip side is the dismissive avoidant, the fearful avoidant is, like, it sounds to me what you might end up being. But the dismissive avoidant, they are individuals who. Their overarching theme is childhood emotional neglect. So it's not always in this really extreme way where parents are never around and food's never on the table. It's usually much more covert. So a lot of times, childhood emotional neglect will look like parents have food on the table at a certain time and kids are at school at a certain time. But if the child's expressing emotion or vulnerability, it's met much more consistently with rejection or even shaming. So it's like, don't be a crybaby. Figure it out. Get it together. And what that teaches is because children need to feel safe. They need to feel seen. They need to feel special. They need to feel this sense of, like, you're attuned to me. When that's not there, the child goes, okay, well, I guess like a child can't sit there and go, well, my parents are emotionally unavailable to me.
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B
Exactly.
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A
So a child instead will go, okay, I guess this part of me is defective and wrong. So they'll be like, okay, I can't express my emotions to people because it doesn't get met with acceptance. And they really stuff that part of themselves down. And so their bears in the woods or their big core wounds become the fear of being seen as defective or shameful. They carry a lot of internalized shame, especially if they're vulnerable. The fear of being weak, if they're vulnerable. The fear of not belonging in a deep way, kind of always just feeling like an outsider or disconnected from other people around them. And then they have big fears around being trapped, helpless, powerless if they have to rely on somebody. So they often become, like, hyper independent. Because if you grew up in a household where you need that attunement, you can't get it. You're scared of, as an adult, being in a relationship and not getting your needs met. And more than anything, they have this huge wound around feeling this fear of disrespect and this fear of being defective. So, like, am I fundamentally broken and shameful if I end up expressing myself or showing up or letting people in? And so as adults, these individuals, they are constantly trying to mitigate their attachment needs. Literally. Children, like, when you look at dismissive, avoidant children, they try to adapt themselves, to lean on people the least so that they can be the most accepted, and so you'll end up seeing this individual. They often, like, get into relationships, they start dating. They show up quite well in the dating stage of relationships. But then as things get real, they're like, oh, hold on, I need to get out of here. This is too much. And they get overwhelmed and they start pushing people away. And even if they feel anxious or they're scared that somebody won't like them or won't be interested in them, their response to it and how it really differs from somebody who's anxiously attached is, well, an anxious attachment is always going to be like, oh, do you not like me? I need to win your approval. A dismissive one's gonna be like, do you not like me? I need to push you away. Like, I don't want you to hurt me with you not liking me. So I need to keep you at a distance for sure and minimize my attachment needs.
- [15:15]
B
Okay. And then the middle one, the fearful avoidant.
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A
So the fearful avoidant has just more trauma that we see in chakra in terms of chaos. Yes. So we'll see. Like, this can be really extreme things, but everything's arranged. Right. It's a continuum. So in a really strong way, you could see like a parent who's an alcoholic, a parent who you know, or maybe both parents in active addiction, parents with mental health issues, a parent with.
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B
But would you also say that it's not. These things don't just stem from parents, it stems from siblings or that cause you to be this way.
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A
So I love that you asked this. So just sidebar before and we'll come back to Fearful avoidant is. It's all about conditioning. Conditioning is whatever happens to you through repetition and emotion over time. So what this means is that we are always being conditioned. So the original attachment cell studies are like children in this something called the strange situation experiment, where children got put into a doctor's office waiting room with a parent and a stranger. The parent would leave the child with a stranger, and they could observe based on how the child would respond to that sit, what the child's attachment style was. Anxious kids would cling when their parent got back. Dismissive ones would reject the parent when they returned into the waiting room. Fearful avoidance would go back and forth and be really ambivalent and hot and cold. Securely attached kids would be quite regulated. So that starts then. But like, somebody could be securely attached with their whole childhood and then go through a traumatic experience with their. Their parents at 15 years old or 20 years old. Or somebody could lose a parent in a really stable home at 12 years old, and that parent passes away. Like, that is absolutely going to create a huge increase that your attachment cell will change drama. And also somebody can be in a relationship with somebody at a young age and like their first love could be really turbulent, and that could change your attachment cell. So repetition, things that we're exposed to through repetition and emotion over time is actually firing and wiring new neural pathways in our brain. And that's why you hear things like, oh, you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time around. Or things where you get. You get into a relationship with a really close friend or somebody you live with or your first relationship, and over the years you notice like, oh, I kind of take on some of their mannerisms and vice versa. We're always being conditioned.
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B
Yes.
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A
So to your point, Your attachment style. Yes. Develops in childhood, and we often talk about it in that context, but 100%, it can change throughout the course of your life.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yeah. So the body of work I focus on is, like, how to change it intentionally.
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B
Yes.
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A
So that you're not at the mercy of, like, whatever life factors you have, whether it's your childhood or some kind of painful event people go through as
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B
adults, because it does. It definitely impacts the rest of your life.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And friendships, relationships. And as much as you can sit there and say, oh, my gosh, why did I do this? Or, I wish this wouldn't, it just is in the back of your mind and just your. But that's just how your body operates. Right. So it's, like, for me, fearful of losing someone. I'm probably just going to push you away so I can hurt you before you hurt me.
- [18:11]
A
Yes. That's a very avoidant saying. So, okay, so let me tell you the rest of the fearful void, and tell me where you think you. You land. So. So the fearful avoidant. So they're really interesting. So they grow up with chaos, and it can be in all kinds of cases, the alcoholism, addiction, just a bad divorce, parents fighting a lot, seeing a lot of turmoil around you. A parent with narcissistic personality disorder, where they love bomb one day, and then they're really mean the next. Like, the overarching theme is, you just don't know what you're gonna get. And so children learn to adapt. I had a client say to me once, and I think this is a good representation. She said, yeah, I would be upstairs home from school, and when my mom would come home, I would know by the way she closed the door what version of my mom I was getting. Like, I knew to either go run and close my bedroom door or leave it open. And so children grow up in an environment where they feel like they're walking on eggshells a lot of the time. And then they have some really good moments with love where it feels really close and connected, and it feels great. And so they're like, okay, love is good. And then they have some really confusing moments with love where sometimes they're put in the middle of things or they're pressured, or there's meanness, or parents being dysregulated and taking that anger out on the kids. And then the kid is like, oh, my gosh. Like, I can't trust love and connection. It hurts me. And so they get these competing associations about the same thing. Again, it's not just childhood and that's
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B
the most confusing thing is when you hold someone on a pedestal and you're like, they're so great, but then it's something totally opposite and then they're great, then they're not. You know, it creates like that ping pong effect of like, all right, what's happening?
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A
100%.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So then the fearful avoidant has the wounds of the anxious. They feel afraid of abandonment, afraid of being rejected or excluded or disliked. Like that's a thing. And that becomes quite strong for them. But then they also get afraid of being trapped or helpless or powerless if they rely on people. And so they have this dynamic and they also, their overarching themes are the fear of betrayal. They struggle to trust, you know, kind of like reality in the future. They're like, oh, we could be in love now, but I can't trust in five years one of us won't change our minds. Like, they have a lot of that. And then this fear of unworthiness, they put a lot of pressure on themselves to earn their worth. So it's always like, I have to over perform, overachieve over everything just to feel worthy of love at a baseline. And then there's a deep sense of not just betrayal and unworthiness, but sometimes they have a core wound of feeling bad. So if you get punished a lot growing up or in a bad relationship as an adult for like everything, like, oh, you spilled the water, and severe punishment, or the parent takes their anger out on you, the child feels like, oh my gosh, I always have to prove my innocence because I could get people could get me in trouble for anything. And so there's a lot of like going through life trying to over explain yourself or make sure that people don't think that you're a bad person or a lot of those types of themes. Yeah, so exactly to what you just said. Fearful avoidants have this anxious and avoid inside. And they can really pinball back and forth where one day they're like, I want love. And they'll people please. And they'll overgive and be overly generous. And another day they're like, wait, this is too much. You're too close. You could really hurt me. Yeah, I need to now push you away. And a lot of it's like, okay, I gotta push you away before you hurt me. Can be a big thing. But a lot of it too is this fear of like, the more I love you, the more you're gonna end up hurting me in the long run. And so love feels like this bittersweet experience where you love somebody and falling in love feels so nice, but then it also feels kind of painful. Yeah. Because you're like, oh, my gosh, this is gonna end badly. I've already assumed that.
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B
And it's very. You're sitting there like, okay, this is all I've ever wanted, but you could hurt me, so therefore I'm gonna stop this from happening, even though it's all I've ever wanted.
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A
Yeah. And it's like, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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B
Yes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Well, it's just like someone allowing someone to help you, and then they help you, and then, you know, you get used to that, and then they disappear. You know what I mean? Like, when you finally allow someone in and life gets easier and maybe, you know, this is how life's supposed to. And then they disappear, and you're like, see, that's why I should have never let someone in.
- [22:16]
A
Yeah, 100%. That's exactly like a fearful avoidance. Okay, so is that the one you resonated with the most?
- [22:21]
B
Yeah, that would be me. Shocker.
- [22:24]
A
You'll usually hear fearful avoidance say, I feel like I relate to all of them because you relate to the anxious and the avoidant side. So that's usually the first sort of sign. And then knowing some of those fears and wounds.
- [22:35]
B
It's also funny. It's my boyfriend, we joke the other day because he said something, and I was like, I'll believe it when I see it. And he's like, is that supposed to be motivating? Because it's not. He was like, that's not motivating at all. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm really sorry. I was like, for me, it is like when someone doubts me or says, you know, oh, I'll see it when you know, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm like, okay, fine on. Watch me.
- [23:05]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, so fearful winds love that.
- [23:08]
A
They love to rise to the challenge. They're like, oh, give me a hard thing. They also like kind of being called out a little bit in relationships. They like challenge because triple ones are used to chaos. So it's a bit of a subconscious comfort zone.
- [23:18]
B
I have always said, I'm getting ready to go and co host the View. And I have. People are like, are you okay? Are you nervous? Are you this? Are you that? And I was like, I function best in chaos. Like, when I'm sitting here, I'm sitting next across from a lawyer preparing for it, and we were doing just kind of like this whole room of people hitting me with questions. And I was like, guys, I swear I'm gonna do so much better when I'm there than I'm doing now because I function so well in chaos and uncomfortable situations.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah. And so there's like a double edged sword to that. Right. Which is the one part is that like, honestly, fearful wins a lot of times make really good entrepreneurs. They're. They're really good outside of their comfort zone. They're so quick on their feet. Ye such good problem solvers under pressure. Like when something's hard or chaotic.
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B
Yes.
- [24:08]
A
They're like so good at like fixing things or even like when there's a traumatic event, they like show up and take the lead a lot of the time. Like they're just so good in those kinds of situations. But the downside is that oftentimes that's so comfortable that then you put yourself in those types of situations over and over again. And then your life is kind of dramatic because you like have these dramatic situations that you invest cause it feels comfortable and your subconscious mind is like trying to maintain its comfort zone. So sometimes that looks like putting yourself outside your comfort zone so much that you can burn yourself out. It can also look like putting yourself in unhealthy relationships at times because that's what you're used to. Or sometimes fearful avoidance. I don't know anything about your boyfriend, so God bless him, but hopefully he's a lovely guy. But you might have a good. And in your past there might be these themes of like when somebody is too healthy or too like solid or too good all the time. Fearful ones are like, this is boring. And that can be like a bit of a theme.
- [25:07]
B
Why do I. This is. All right, are we done?
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A
No,
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B
that is, that is very true.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like it's because you're so used to chaos. I think luckily I've done a lot of work. But like there's some things that like as much as you want to try and change it or fix it. And I really haven't done as much work as I should, so let me prep. Sit with that. But I used to be very much that way of like, oh, this is boring or this or that. And now I think I've gone through so much additional trauma than like my core big T trauma that I find so much peace and comfort in the consistency and like doing what you say you're gonna do. And a big thing for me is like not raising your voice, not yelling. That's a childhood thing, you know. And I'm like, you Yell at me, I shut off.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. And pull away and retreat. Yeah, 100%. And honestly, that's good, that's a good thing that you're like aware of those things and you're speaking for those things. Because if you grew up in an environment where you are, are used to those things. Sometimes people, if they don't do the work or they don't become self aware, they just go back and invest in those kinds of things over and over again instead. And they just, they're suddenly around all these people that raise their voices or things like that. So it kind of tends to go one of two ways. If somebody's more self starting to do the work, they'll be like, oh, I'm not doing that. And they'll have boundaries around it and be self aware about it. But if somebody is in doing the work or doesn't know about these things, very frequently people end up repeating those same types of patterns.
- [26:46]
B
And so when you're in a romantic relationship, like I. What are we describing me as?
- [26:52]
A
Fearful avoidant.
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B
Fearful avoidant. Okay. So when in relationship with someone, like, how do you. I guess until you heal those things, it's going to be really hard to be in a extremely healthy relationship. But like, what is a good match for a fearful avoidant?
- [27:11]
A
Okay, so you know, if you're gonna match with an attachment style, fearful avoidance, a lot of times end up being attracted to other fearful avoidance. Because fearful avoidance. In their relationships, they yearn deeply for like stability and trust and safety. But they also have this.
- [27:28]
B
So true. He's definitely a fearful avoidant, your boyfriend. Yeah, he is.
- [27:33]
A
And they have. Okay, so you'll see these two parts. They have this interesting part where they yearn for like that stability, trust, safety. They want that. But at the same time they need that novelty. They need that kind of spice. They need to challenge themselves, push themselves out of their comfort zone. It's almost like different from other attachment styles. They seem to have these kind of two competing aspects of their personality. They're like, I want stability and trust. But like, we can't be too boring. We have to try new things. We have to go outside of our comfort zone. They need the depth of connection. Fearful women do not like surface things. They like to go deep, have meaningful conversations.
- [28:03]
B
And he may not be fearful avoidant. See, now I'm like so like intrigued by this. Now I'm like, I have to know.
- [28:10]
A
So what?
- [28:10]
B
So he's just, he's had a lot of trauma in his life and just, you know, just a Lot of trauma, a lot of crazy things happening. A lot of having everything, having nothing at all, just.
- [28:27]
A
And was he thrust into the middle of those situations a lot?
- [28:29]
B
Yeah, it was not by his control.
- [28:31]
A
Yeah. So there's two conversations that happen right here, which is what might have his attachment cell originally been, but then did he do some work? Because then he can start making strides. Like, has he worked on himself? Does he. Is he self aware?
- [28:43]
B
Yes, he is very self aware.
- [28:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So there could be a part where he like was very fearful avoidant at one point and maybe also was integrated. Did he have a history of kind of dramatic situations or being more in chaos?
- [28:54]
B
Yes.
- [28:54]
A
Okay, so at some point, highly likely. And is he very consistent and warm now?
- [29:01]
B
Yes, very.
- [29:02]
A
Yeah.
- [29:03]
B
But like, he's very self aware. To be able to say, like the version of me that you have is not who I've been.
- [29:12]
A
Yeah.
- [29:13]
B
Which for someone to be able to say that, you're like, oh, wow, okay,
- [29:17]
A
those are great green flags. Oh yeah. Those are really good signs. Because what that's saying is honestly one of the benefits of fearful avoidance. Because each attachment cell also has superpowers. Like anxious attachment cells are super charismatic and they're fun and they light up a room and they're charming and very loving and friendly and they make people feel welcome. Dismissive avoidance are super grounded and rational and consistent. And they're really good at being independent and doing their own thing. And they do well under pressure as well. Fearful avoidance, because they're very deep. They've had to go through really big, extreme things on either side. They're usually, like we said, really great at being outside of their comfort zone and thinking on their feet and being great under challenge. But they're all also very self aware. And so if a fearful woman starts working on themselves and trying to be self aware and correct their patterns, they often can do a really good job of moving towards becoming more secure more quickly.
- [30:10]
B
Interesting. And when do you. And because how many years have you been doing this?
- [30:15]
A
I started studying, like how to rewire your subconscious mind in general and then working with clients about 14 years ago.
- [30:22]
B
Oh, wow.
- [30:22]
A
It's been a while.
- [30:23]
B
So in the time that you've been doing it, what would you say is kind of the point in someone's life to where you've realized that they start noticing their attachment style, how it's affected their life and how to fix it?
- [30:38]
A
Good question. So it's different for me because I would get people to come in and then one of the first things I would do is be like, let's assess your attachment style. Take them through about 20, 30 questions, really go deep, assess their attachment style. And then we work on five pillars of healing. So the five things, and this is where you'll start seeing somebody become more secure. And then you can really see the impact that it's had at that point is number one, rewiring your core wounds. So that thing we talked about, your bear in the woods, the trapped, helpless, powerless, those core wounds, those are solvable problems. You're not born with them. They get conditioned into your subconscious mind. And from a neuroplasticity standpoint, it's through repetition and emotion over time you can change them. So all of those times that people in relationships feel like afraid of being abandoned and panic, afraid of being trapped and push people away, like have these experiences coming up, you don't have to be like that. So that's the first thing. And I can share an exercise if you want for how to do that. Second thing is people have to learn to meet their own needs. So this is very cliche, the expression, but it like rings so true. It's so deep, like it's so deeply impactful that I have to say this healing becomes like healing happens when you become your own parent. So I get people to sit down and I'm like, write mom on a page, write dad on a page, write any other influential person in your life because everybody can have an impact on your conditioning. And I want you to write the deepest unmet needs from your childhood from each part person. So if somebody's like, oh, I needed my mom to be more present or more protective or to make me feel more seen or more validated or whatever it is, okay, put them for mom, put them for dad. And honestly what we have to do is build new neural networks in our brain for at least a 21 day cycle of how to meet those needs for ourselves. And when we do that, what's really interesting is that we will always try to resource from other people too much and put too much pressure on other people to give to us the things we haven't figured out how to give to ourselves. So for example, anxiously attached people, they don't know how to self validate and they're often quite critical of themselves and just trying to people please. So they are like, I need you to soothe me, I need you to validate me, do it all for me. Like they're always trying to get that from people. So what we like for them as an example, they have to start like for 21 days journaling. Three things they're proud of each day, like three wins. It can be small things, but they have to actually train their brain to start seeing those parts of them. Exactly. And then when they actually have learned to fill their own cup halfway, they're not constantly coming from this place of running on empty. Like, their gas tank is empty and they have to find a gas station. They're not like, oh, my God, somebody has to do it for me. I need validation all the time. They actually are more regulated because they have that self validation. So now they become more secure and more patient and grounded in relationships. So each attachment style has specific needs. They need to learn to give to themselves, and it brings them back to balance. And it's a really important form of self soothing. Soothing.
- [33:20]
B
Wow. That is. I'm like, this is crazy just hearing all the things, because I also think. I don't know, I feel like you can be a little bit of some of them. You know, I think for me, it's also not. I don't know, you know, for. Let's just say, like my parents, right, There were things that I needed as a child, but they didn't know that I needed them. So I feel bad for holding them accountable for not knowing things. You get what it.
- [33:53]
A
Like, 100%. I see what you're saying, which is you are empathizing with them, and you don't want to make them the bad guys for not knowing because how are they supposed to read your mind?
- [34:02]
B
Yes.
- [34:02]
A
And this is everybody's childhood. This is a normal experience. And I want to separate those two things. One is that you had that childhood experience, and that's real for you. So if in your childhood you were missing deeply, you know, deep needs that you really needed to be there.
- [34:17]
B
Yeah.
- [34:17]
A
That's going to make you feel a certain way. That's going to imprint you a certain way. There's a wonderful quote by Dr. Gabor Mata. He said, trauma are the things that happened that shouldn't have happened. That's the obvious stuff like abuse. But then trauma are also the things that should have happened that didn't. Like, if you get neglected and you needed connection or attunement, it wasn't there. So the first part of that is you should be okay to be like, hey, I didn't get these things. And that hurt. And my parents didn't provide those for me. And that hurt. And my parents are not meant to be. These gods that know everything, they read my mind. And they had their own stuff, too, and they Were probably doing the absolute best they could with what was available to them. And so I'm going to honor my experience and I'm going to do that healing work to be like, good. What were the needs I didn't have met? Let me start meeting them in relationship to myself. That will be healing for me. And I'm not going to blame them. I'm going to be accountable for that and understand they were doing their best at the same time.
- [35:08]
B
Yeah. I think that's something that a lot of people, if they're honest with themselves, struggle with of like the saying, which I hate, but it's so true. Two things can be true at one time. Time. I hate that saying.
- [35:21]
A
Hate it.
- [35:21]
B
It just sounds terrible. But it's the truth.
- [35:23]
A
It is the truth. I kind of like that saying. It's like, oh, I like that.
- [35:28]
B
Oh, my dear God. I know two things can be true at one time, but it can still, like, piss you off. You're like, all right, like, I can love you, but it can.
- [35:37]
A
You miss the mark sometimes. Yeah. And that's okay. And like, I think there's a rite of passage for children growing up to be like, hey, my parents weren't supposed to have it all right. Like, they were just humans figuring it out too.
- [35:49]
B
I see. I say once realize that it's your parents first time doing life too.
- [35:55]
A
Yeah.
- [35:56]
B
Like, I say it with everyone in the world, Once you realize it's someone else's first time living life too, you learn to have more grace for individuals
- [36:04]
A
100 and think of like, your parents generation and how they grew up. Like they didn't have tools or resources like we do in a more mainstream way now.
- [36:11]
B
Yes.
- [36:12]
A
So that's why it's huge to be able to do that.
- [36:14]
B
And I also think too, the. The time frame of like, when they grew up versus how we're growing up, the world is so totally different. And for me, you know, we live in a world to where women are encouraged to make it to the top. You know, be a CEO of a company or be the sole provider for your family, whatever it is. But like, back then it was like, women get married and you have kids and you cook and you clean, you know, so it's. I feel like it's so hard to understand each other when you grow up in two totally different eras.
- [36:59]
A
I think that's so well said. I completely agree. And that's. So when we go through and we talk about the five pillars of healing, it's like, rewire your core wounds like we talked about. Meet your needs, regulate your nervous system. Like meditation, mindfulness, practices, things to get you back in your body and centered. But then the next two pillars are communication and boundaries. And like, to your point, if you have such different conditioning from people, whether it's a different attachment style, whether it's, you grew up in different generations and had a totally different, like, life experience, we all have such unique conditioning of what we expect from each other. Like, our parents are going to have a certain expectation of how their kids should be based on what they saw. Kids are going to be in a different generation thinking, like, but my parents should be like this. Or when attachments, I was going to think, oh, love should look like this. And the other person would be like, no, it should look like this. Like, we carry all of these subconscious, invisible expectations into every relationship, into every person we meet. And the only way to really bridge the gap in our closest relationships is through healthy communication and dialogue.
- [37:55]
B
And so when you work with people, what is your process?
- [38:00]
A
So we do 90 days. We're like, okay, 90 day program. We start, we assess somebody's attachment style. We like take them through 30 questions. Here's what your attachment style is. Then we break it down into these major pillars of healing. We get people, people to start rewiring their triggers. So I can share an exercise at the end for how to do that. Because it's such a big deal, it gives you so much relief. Like, as somebody who I was a fearful avoidant, we've taken 60,000 people through our programs doing this.
- [38:23]
B
That's insane.
- [38:24]
A
And people who do the core wound reprogramming exercise, if they really stick to it and they do it properly and don't miss a day for 21 days, report a 99.7% satisfaction score with like, getting rid of their core wounds. And as somebody who's done this personally, who I've like, done so much core wound work because I had all the core wounds. Yeah. Um, like your mind, like, has all this room back. Like your mental, emotional, real estate, instead of being stressed and triggered is like, oh, I can like focus on designing my life and building a business and, and being present with people. And like, you're not constantly thinking, feel
- [38:54]
B
like you're living in this just chaos in your mind.
- [38:56]
A
Exactly, exactly. And your whole internal dialogue changes. You have more self compassion. Like, I used to beat myself up like crazy. I would make a mistake and like, into oblivion. And then like doing a lot of core wound work because your core wounds determine your patterns of thought. Like, if I make a mist As a person, I'm like, oh, I'm a human being. Like, I made a mistake. I'll go fix it. I'll go be accountable. But I have so much more room to do that in a healthy, grounded way because I'm not so busy in the drama of I'm such a bad person or I'm so not good enough, or all of those core wounds and thought patterns, they distract you from being accountable and showing up for life too, sometimes.
- [39:29]
B
Wow.
- [39:30]
A
So, yeah. So we start with core wounds. Then we go into meet your deepest unmet needs from childhood. Then we go into nervous system regulation activities, which is, like, ways to really get you from sympathetic. If you spend too much time in fight or flight, which can make you feel really on, but also. Also can lead to a lot of burnout.
- [39:45]
B
That's me.
- [39:45]
A
Yeah. And it can also make you feel restless. Do you have a hard time sitting still?
- [39:48]
B
Huh?
- [39:49]
A
Yeah.
- [39:51]
B
And sleeping?
- [39:51]
A
Yeah. All of that. That's a sympathetic nervous system issue. The vast majority of the time, sleep. So we get people to do regulation activities. I'm happy to share, like, any tools and anything you want to ask for. But then we go into communication and then boundaries, because communication. I used to work with clients. And, like, I'm telling you for the first year that I'd work with people. When I was running my practice before being online, people come in, they'd be like, oh, my God, my spouse doesn't listen to me. My husband doesn't. My wife doesn't listen to me.
- [40:18]
B
But how are you communicating?
- [40:20]
A
Yeah. And, like, at first I was like, oh, no, that's so sad. Their spouse doesn't listen to them. And then, like, 95% of the time, it was that they just communicated terribly.
- [40:27]
B
Yes.
- [40:27]
A
And God bless people, like, it's not their fault. I used to be a terrible communicator. I totally get it. But, like, there's really important things we can do in communication. One of them is positive framing. So the difference between saying, like, you don't care about me, you don't spend any time with me, versus saying, hey, like, I'm feeling disconnected. Let's have a fun date night this week and be present with each other.
- [40:47]
B
Yes. That's one thing that. It's so funny. I dated this guy when I was, like, 16, and it was so just insane and crazy and whatever. But his mom told me it's like something that has stuck with me ever since then. She was like, hey, when you're communicating, just say, like, hey, when you did this, it really made Me feel this way. Like, this is how I feel. Because no one can argue with a feeling.
- [41:15]
A
Yeah.
- [41:16]
B
And I was like, oh, wow. Because it goes. It's so easy to blame.
- [41:23]
A
Yes.
- [41:23]
B
And when you blame, people automatically become defensive.
- [41:27]
A
Exactly.
- [41:28]
B
Versus just taking control of your feelings. Because, hey, I could have said, take a walk, and I could have meant it like. Like really just go walk. And you could have taken it as me, like, saying it negatively towards you. That's how you took it. And so if you took it that way, I'm sorry, it's that being able to say, like, I feel this way. And I was like, oh. But I also think not being able to communicate that way originally was because I did grow up in a setting to where your feelings weren't really validated.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah. And that can be really hard. And then we think. Then we think, okay, well, then my feelings, I can't express them.
- [42:08]
B
Yeah.
- [42:08]
A
And then if you don't express them, you usually learn instead. Well, the only way I can express how I'm feeling is when I get angry at somebody for what they're not doing or I become critical. And so it can become something where instead of saying, hey, I'm needing more of this, or I'm feeling this way, the one thing I'll say about that, I love what you said. I love, love, love what you said. But this. The One of the downsides to sometimes that happening is people. If you just say what you feel and not what you need, then people are like, oh, I upset you. You. But then they don't know what to do because they can't read your mind. So I'm always like, okay, say the feeling, but then say the need and express it positively.
- [42:40]
B
Follow it up with the need.
- [42:41]
A
Exactly. Because then nobody has to try to, like, mind read. Like, okay, I hurt you, but, like, what do I do to solve for it? And sometimes when people don't know how to solve for it, then they still feel a little bit blamed, and then they push back, and then somebody's trying to be vulnerable and share their feelings,
- [42:53]
B
and then it's just a cluster of things.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah. So the feelings are really good for a step. And it exactly. Like you said, you take control in that way of your feelings and your experience. But then always say, like, what you need and try to positively frame it. So if you want more time together, don't say, yeah, you don't spend any time with me.
- [43:10]
B
Say, you'll get no time if you say that.
- [43:12]
A
Exactly. Or if you feel like you want someone to be more consistent with communicating. Don't say, God, you suck at texting. Say, hey, let's text like every day. Like, let's have an evening exchange where we, like, have a game plan together. We, we like meet on the phone for 15 minutes. Whatever it is. Like, just be specific and frame it positively. And just changing those initial things completely transforms people's communication.
- [43:34]
B
I can definitely see that something happened the day and my boyfriend calls me and tells me something. It wasn't like, bad, but I've had so much trauma in my life of, like, things just going wrong that when you tell me a little bit of bad information, I'm just like, all right, effort, like, is what it is. And later on he came back to me and was like, I'm starting to realize with you that when I come to you and I have a problem problem, I need to come to you and tell you that problem, but also give you the solution as well.
- [44:08]
A
There you go.
- [44:09]
B
And I was like, that would be a lot better because my entire day, I was like, my entire day was ruined because I got in my head and thought of all the bad possible scenarios of how things could happen. And he is like, you know what? From now on, I'm going to come to you, tell you what's wrong, but then also give you a solution. I'm like, thank you, that's so good.
- [44:29]
A
Can you tell me to high level what the situation was?
- [44:33]
B
It was.
- [44:34]
A
And you don't have to.
- [44:35]
B
No, no. It was just like some paperwork that was done and it wasn't done as like, up to par with how the company wanted it done. And then I was just, you know,
- [44:47]
A
it was just so. He's like, oh, this paperwork wasn't done. Yeah, let's say that was a problem. Literally.
- [44:51]
B
And I'm like, I've done everything else.
- [44:52]
A
It's never, ever, ever, ever the paperwork. Okay, so it's never happened. It's. He can help by saying he can detract from this problem by saying, so I know need ABC to solve for it, and it can be solved and that's easier. And then we don't personalize it, but the actual root of why it ends up hurting so much or getting in your head and it bothers you the whole day is because of what you make it mean about you. So every time we have something that triggers us. I was telling the story the other day. I worked with this couple at one point, and this is like my best analogy for this. And they came and it was like my first couple months of working with people and I was sitting and they came into my office and they were sitting on the couch and the wife, it was the husband and wife. She's talking about the laundry not being done, or the laundry, sorry, being on the floor. And she's talking about it. I'm like kind of taking a note. And I look up and she's going like this to talk about it. And her hands are physically, like shaking with rage. And I was kind of startled, like, wait, why is she so mad?
- [45:48]
B
Yeah.
- [45:49]
A
And then I look at her husband. Her husband starts like a little kid, like cowering, like sitting down like this. And I'm like, what happened? Like, what's going on? And what I realized is that they're so mad about the laundry. But I was like, okay, when the laundry's on the floor, what do you make it mean about you? And she said, well, he doesn't respect me. And she had this huge, I'm disrespected core wound from childhood with her dad. And then I say to him, I'm like, oh, and when she gets mad, what do you make it mean about you? And he's like, well, she must not love me because I do all of these things for her. And she's this mad about just clothes on a floor. So people go their whole frickin lives trying to solve conflict by talking about the clothes on the floor, the paperwork not being done. And it's what they make it mean about them. And what they make it mean about them is their own individual bear in the woods from their own subconscious trigger. Because your subconscious mind stores everything. Yeah. And it consolidates things over time. So. So essentially when something is triggering, your conscious mind says, what do we know about paperwork not being done or something being done incorrectly. Yeah. Your subconscious mind says, oh, all the times in childhood where I didn't do something Right. And maybe I got punished or blamed or I was made to feel bad
- [46:54]
B
or not good enough.
- [46:55]
A
And then your subconscious, subconscious projects that onto the experience. And then you're not just experiencing like the discomfort of whatever didn't work out nicely in this moment.
- [47:02]
B
Yeah.
- [47:02]
A
You're experiencing that with all the subconsciously stored emotion that's now flooding to the surface. And that's why it feels so triggering.
- [47:08]
B
My whole life, I have like lived in so much fricking trauma, but I've always been like an over performer. Right. Because like, I'm going to perform in order to be the best and do the best and all these things. And now that I am finally in a very healthy relationship. Relationship, it's like everything is like, just deflating, you know, like, I feel the safety to be able to, like, sit and do nothing and not have to perform.
- [47:38]
A
Yes.
- [47:39]
B
And I think for him, it's like this transition of maybe my styles or whatever it may be. And he's like, no, I mean, I.
- [47:49]
A
I know exactly what it was.
- [47:50]
B
What was it he was talking about?
- [47:52]
A
About work. You were kind of off in, like, your own world. Yeah.
- [47:56]
B
He was like, see, you never ever want to talk about work. You know, after I talked to her, she never wants to do anything until it's last minute. And I took it as, oh, you're calling me lazy.
- [48:06]
A
Yeah. So exactly. In that situation, there's probably two things happening. He's making something around work mean something about him, and then he's overreacting to that. But then you were making his comment mean something about you. So if I actually ask you when he said that, I'll take you through a process so you can see it and like, anybody can do this. So in that moment that you hear that comment, what emotion do you feel?
- [48:27]
B
Anger.
- [48:27]
A
Good. And in that moment that you feel anger, what do you make him saying that mean about you? And just say whatever comes to mind and I'll guide you.
- [48:36]
B
Lazy.
- [48:37]
A
Okay, good. So I'm lazy. And if I'm lazy, what does that then mean about me? Or what am I afraid will happen
- [48:43]
B
that I will lose him or not be successful?
- [48:48]
A
Okay, good. And so if I lose him, then I'm abandoned. Does that show up? And if I'm not successful, then am I unworthy? Yeah. So if you look at your childhood, how did it, like, were abandonment and unworthiness big themes in there? Yeah. So what happens is that's how we get your subconscious information. Conscious is just by asking, what do I make this mean about me? Or what am I afraid will happen? And we just poke at it a few times and eventually you'll be like, oh, it's these things. And so. And then I'm sure you felt very angry because. Very.
- [49:18]
B
And I left. But that was me as a kid.
- [49:21]
A
But then you left. So you felt. You felt enough to leave.
- [49:23]
B
Yeah. I think also too, I get numb so I don't get hurt.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah.
- [49:30]
B
So I try to block it off.
- [49:32]
A
Yeah. Compartmentalize.
- [49:34]
B
Yeah, compartmentalize. Block it off. And like, I will not say another word.
- [49:37]
A
Yeah.
- [49:38]
B
And then like, you're going to have to say something.
- [49:40]
A
Yeah. You're probably FA leaning Da. Like you have sort of a leaning towards more of a. Where you'll push down, push Down. Push down even more. Which is interesting. I was noticing this. We kept talking. I was like, well, you definitely have a lean, which most people do. Like, I fe leaning more anxious. I was more anxious when I was fearful. Avoidant. You're obviously more dismissive. Avoidant in your leaning. But the trauma will be like that. You have that anxious side, that kind of hawkhole dynamic. But yeah, that will be your way of protecting and what's interesting from his side. And I'm not saying that what he said is okay at all, but he probably, I bet you if you asked him, he was trying to engage with you about something and maybe he had a core wound of feeling, like, unheard.
- [50:15]
B
Yes, without a doubt.
- [50:16]
A
Yeah. So then he says it, and instead of saying, hey, I am feeling unheard. Hey, or hey, can you come be present with me? That's what I need. I want to talk something through. Can we be present for 10 minutes and just hash it out? It's really important to me. I need you to do that. Instead of that. He's like, oh, Savannah doesn't do things until the last minute or whatever.
- [50:33]
B
Your child, your inner child comes out.
- [50:35]
A
Exactly. And then it's like a temper tantrum. And then you speak in these kind of funny ways that then trigger the other person. And then you're locked in this cycle where you're like, what the heck happened? And it's because it's never about the objective stuff. It's always when we have any kind of friction in an argument. This is what drives me nuts. Poor people go their whole lives actually trying to talk about the laundry on the floor, the paperwork, the this and that. And it's like if you're in a fight and it's actually heated, it's never about the surface staff. It's always about the personal meaning we give to it based on our own subconscious wounds from past experiences.
- [51:09]
B
That is so true. Oh my gosh. This is. I'm okay. This is life changing. I'm like gonna go read your book, listen to your podcast.
- [51:17]
A
Podcast.
- [51:18]
B
So the personal development school. What is this process and how can people get involved?
- [51:24]
A
Yeah, so I am@personal developmentschool.com they come in, they learn how to rewire their core wounds, learn how to meet their own needs, which helps them feel more self regulated and self soothed, regulate their nervous system and then go through communication and boundaries work and the communication is a lot of conflict stuff. So it's exactly what we just talked about, like how to figure out what meaning you give to things. We go through a 90 day program, they heal at the subconscious level. Instead of just consciously intellectualizing things, we actually do the rewiring work to leverage neuroplasticity. So it actually changes people's brains. Wow. And then people end up becoming securely attached at the end of the 90 day program.
- [51:58]
B
That is amazing. And what are like your rate, like for when someone said like before you
- [52:04]
A
told us what 99.7% NPS score. So we had that for. So we got people to rate when they finished the program and got them to rate for each section. And that was the average out for the core wound section. But overall it was a 96.3% NPS score. And people, if they completed the entire program, who became securely attached.
- [52:21]
B
Wow. That is amazing. So I assume in the time that you've been doing this, you've seen so many lives transformed, relationships, marriages, families.
- [52:32]
A
Yeah, 100. And like, if people. I am such a firm believer, no matter how much like trauma somebody has or how much chaos, like, I actually don't care about that at all.
- [52:40]
B
Yeah.
- [52:40]
A
If people come into a place programs, I'm like, cool. Like, you'll. You'll get it done. Yeah, you'll get it. The only thing that matters is if you're willing to do the work and stick to it. That's the only thing. Yeah. Because to really rewire, you need a little bit of repetition every day because it's what fires and wires, neural pathways. So as long as we get that, people will heal. If there's an absence, if somebody's like, oh, I'm gonna just read it for one day or take part of the program for a week and then kind of give up, then that's where people will get stuck. But if people complete the program, that's. Those are the rates that we have.
- [53:08]
B
I love that. That is amazing. Okay. I'm so may just, you know, have to do it myself. But that is so exciting. So where can people go? They go to your website, personal development, school.com. and then we actually have a code for them for 20% off of the 90 day attachment healing membership, which is great. So that code is PDS2026 for 20% off. And I just love sitting and talking to you and hearing you out. And now like my brain is going in a thousand different directions just calling, causing you. And I feel like too, once you become aware of your attachment style and you realize other people have an attachment style too, again, you can learn to have some grace for how things happen or how things are said. So 100. I'm excited.
- [53:55]
A
Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. Of course. And it was fun to like hear the real life experience and your share. So thank you. And yeah, I really enjoyed being here.
- [54:02]
B
Awesome. So again, personaldevelopmentschool.com and you can use the code PDS2 2026 for 20% off of the 90 day attachment healing program.
- [54:14]
A
Thank you so much. Of course they put hot honey sauce on the snack wrap. McDonald's outdid themselves again. The classic snack wrap we all know and love paired with the sweet heat of hot honey sauce. Just what we needed to make it even more perfect. You know the drill, so go to McDonald's and try it today.