34: Defendants Have Tried to Kill Me — A Forensic Psychologist Explains the Job | Case Notes

Summary

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UNMARKED: A True Crime Podcast

Episode 34: Defendants Have Tried to Kill Me — A Forensic Psychologist Explains the Job | Case Notes

Release Date: July 19, 2026
Host: UNMARKED (James Buddy Day)
Guest: Dr. Ng Barrel, Forensic Psychologist

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, UNMARKED sits down with Dr. Ng Barrel, a seasoned forensic psychologist with over three decades of experience evaluating violent offenders, consulting on high-profile cases, and teaching at John Jay College. Dr. Barrel shares unfiltered insights on the realities of forensic psychology: from the dangerous and bizarre behaviors encountered in the field to the nuanced psychological assessments of some of America’s most notorious criminals. The conversation delves into career misconceptions, the temperament required for the job, and practical advice for dealing with psychopathic personalities, both professionally and personally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Dangers of Forensic Psychology

• Physical Threats in the Job
  • Dr. Barrel reveals he’s been attacked or nearly killed by defendants under 10 times throughout his career ([01:00–01:09], [32:44–32:54]):

    "Under 10 times. But it’s usually been, well, 10, 10 times is a lot, I would say." – Dr. Barrel ([01:04])

  • Most attacks occur in jails or courts. The wildest instances involve defendants leaping over tables in the courtroom to attack him ([01:09–01:24], [32:54–33:15]).

    "They leap over the table where they're sitting with their attorney and they take a run at me." – Dr. Barrel ([01:17])

  • The latest incident: a man at Bellevue Hospital smeared feces and then ate it during an evaluation ([01:49–02:52], [33:37–34:44]).

    "...for four or five seconds, they were the longest four or five seconds I had experienced in a long time because I had no idea what the next move was... His decision was to put his hand in his own mouth and eat the entire content." – Dr. Barrel ([02:12])

2. What Forensic Psychologists Actually Do

• Career Path and Definitions
  • Difference between forensic psychologists and psychiatrists: psychologists pursue a PhD or PsyD in clinical psychology, psychiatrists start in medicine ([03:44–05:00]):

    "For a psychologist, you go to graduate school and obtain either a PhD or a PsyD … Both apply their knowledge to human behavior and the law." – Dr. Barrel ([03:50])

  • Forensics extends beyond criminal behavior, including civil cases and family court ([05:00–06:14]).
• Types of Cases
  • Early work with not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity patients, delinquents, and family violence ([06:29–08:00])
  • Long-standing private practice evaluating sex offenders and those with psychiatric issues for the courts ([08:00–09:15])
  • Evaluations can occur in clinics, jails, private offices, or hospitals like Bellevue.

3. Methodologies and Approach

• Psychological Framework
  • Dr. Barrel emphasizes a pragmatic, empirically-based evaluation style. He avoids rigid psychological schools in favor of "understanding the context in which this person developed," focusing on triggers for criminal actions and observable symptoms ([09:49–11:58]).

    "It's not so much adhering to a theoretic or philosophic construct... I take a very pragmatic, empirically based approach." – Dr. Barrel ([10:43])

• Evaluating Violent Offenders
  • Interest over horror—Dr. Barrel is more curious than repulsed by the offenders' backgrounds and crimes, even after viewing graphic crime videos ([12:41–13:58]):

    "I can't explain to you exactly why it's never been repulsive to me. It's been more interesting than repulsive." – Dr. Barrel ([12:56])

  • He lets offenders recount their stories, sometimes holding back knowledge of incriminating evidence to catch inconsistencies later ([14:01–14:29]).

4. Cat-and-Mouse Dynamics: Interviewing Psychopaths

• Confronting Deception
  • Offenders react negatively when confronted with evidence they thought was hidden; some attempt to test Dr. Barrel’s credentials, reflecting their narcissism ([14:29–19:28]).
  • Memorable case: A narcissistic murderer tries to quiz Dr. Barrel on his academic pedigree ([19:30–21:00]):

    "The arrogance was incredible... this man had committed a cold blooded murder. And he's quizzing me..." – Dr. Barrel ([19:41])

  • Dr. Barrel recognizes when an offender resists all questioning and reports this to the legal teams ([21:00–22:00]).

5. Advice for Those Dealing with Psychopathic Personalities

• For the General Public
  • If you have a psychopathic or dangerously narcissistic person in your life, Dr. Barrel suggests either seeking therapy to strategize, or—if necessary—obtaining an order of protection, though he acknowledges the limitations and risks of legal remedies ([22:41–24:25]).

    "If someone is psychopathic, why do you think they’d adhere to... an order of protection? They’re willing to kill people sometimes..." – Dr. Barrel ([23:46])

  • In most cases, the safest option may be simply to "get away" ([25:05]).
• Handling Delusional People
  • When approached by potentially mentally ill individuals (paranoia, delusions), Dr. Barrel advises collecting evidence and presenting it to police, rather than engaging or dismissing them outright ([25:05–26:10]).

6. Debunking Myths About Forensic Psychology

• Pop Culture vs. Reality
  • Dr. Barrel addresses misconceptions perpetuated by films like Silence of the Lambs, where psychologists are shown at the crime scene or directly assisting police as profilers ([26:10–27:31]).

    "People do have it in their head that somehow, you were right behind the officers as they bashed down the door… a lot of that's just fictitious." – Dr. Barrel ([26:54])

• Glamor vs. Tedium
  • Much of the job involves waiting, paperwork, and uncomfortable environments, not cinematic intrigue ([27:34–28:04]):

    "Try sitting on a wooden bench for four hours before they produce a defendant and you see rats running in and out... explain to me what’s exciting about that..." – Dr. Barrel ([27:44])

7. Is Forensic Psychology a Good Career?

• Personality Fit and Reality of the Job

  • The work is often far less glamorous and more stressful than the media suggests ([28:04–28:13]):

    "If you're thinking about it like a baby or a child… you may be barking up the wrong tree… But if you're truly interested in sitting patiently and painstakingly willing to talk to people who have done the unthinkable... it could be interesting." – Dr. Barrel ([28:19])

  • Many cases are run-of-the-mill, not spectacular crimes.
  • Courtroom drama includes witnessing misconduct from all parties and the risk of violent outbursts ([29:30–30:13]).

• Advice for Women in the Field

  • Dr. Barrel warns that women doing criminal forensic work must be prepared for initial sexualization by offenders, especially in cases involving sexual crimes ([30:13–32:12]):

    "The initial response from the people you’re talking to is going to be to sexualize the experience." – Dr. Barrel ([30:16])

8. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Dangerous Incidents in Court & Jail

  "You got to be prepared for all that...people go cuckoo in court sometimes and leap over tables and take a run at the expert witness." – Dr. Barrel ([29:30])

• Regarding Disgusting Behavior in the Field

  "At the end of the interview, this fellow… puts his hand in his own mouth and eats the entire content... then made the declaration that it tasted like shit." – Dr. Barrel ([34:09])

  • Host’s Reaction:

    "If that's not an endorsement for a career in forensic psychology, I don't know what is." – Host ([34:44])

  • Dr. Barrel’s Humorous Quip:

    "What were you expecting? Cotton candy?" – Dr. Barrel ([35:20])

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Notable Timestamps

• Physical Danger & Attacks: [01:00–01:30], [32:44–33:15]
• Graphic Bellevue Incident: [01:49–02:52], [33:37–34:44]
• Forensic Psychology Career Path: [03:44–06:14]
• Methodologies in Assessment: [09:49–11:58]
• Interview Tactics with Offenders: [14:01–14:29], [19:30–21:00]
• Advice for Dealing with Psychopaths: [22:41–24:25], [25:05–26:10]
• Gender Dynamics in the Field: [30:13–32:12]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, authentic lens into the challenging but compelling world of forensic psychology. Dr. Ng Barrel dismantles Hollywood myths, shares shockingly candid stories from his career, and gives pragmatic advice—both for aspiring professionals and anyone tangentially encountering extreme personalities. The field, as he tells it, requires grit, patience, and a keen curiosity for the human condition, not a taste for drama or excitement.

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Transcript

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[B]

How many times have offenders tried to kill you?

[C]

Under 10 times. But it's usually been, well, 10, 10

[B]

times is a lot, I would say.

[C]

Sometimes it's been in, in the jails, sometimes it's in court. And when it's in court, it's the wildest thing of all is because they leap over the table where they're sitting with their, their attorney and they take a run at me.

[B]

And this has happened to you so the, the defendant has leapt over the table and taken you while you're in the box.

[C]

Yeah, screaming, you know, you mother effer, you know, and, and I'm sitting there like, okay, well, I better be ready if they hit, if they hit where I'm sitting and these officers are slow, I'm going to have to defend myself. Right.

[B]

When was the last time this happened?

[C]

Not too long ago. It was only a few months ago. I sat in a room at Bellevue on a case. And at the end of the interview, this fellow takes a large dump in his jumpsuit, declares out loud, I think I just in my pants, reaches into his jumpsuit, pulls out a wad of, on his hand. And for four or five seconds, they were the longest four or five seconds I had experienced in a long time because I had no idea what the next move was. Was he going to throw it at me, was he going to push it, you know, into my face? Was he going to push it onto my jacket or whatever? And his decision was to put his hand in his own mouth and eat the entire content of what was in his hand and then made the declaration that it tasted like shit.

[B]

If that's not an endorsement for a career in forensic psychology, I don't know what is. If you've ever watched a true crime documentary and wondered who evaluates the people at the center of these cases, today's guest has spent more than three decades deep doing exactly that. Dr. Ng Barrel is a forensic psychologist who has assessed violent offenders, consulted on high profile criminal cases, and taught the next generation of forensic psychologists at John Jay College. Today we're talking about what the job is really like and what it takes to become a forensic psychologist. Dr. Barrel, we get a lot of people commenting, emailing us about the career path of foreign forensic psychiatry psychology. So, first of all, you're a forensic psychologist, correct?

[C]

That's correct.

[B]

And how long have you been doing that and what is the difference?

[C]

I. I'd say I've been doing this well over 35 years. And the difference between, I take it you meet a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist is that, you know, well, both people, like a forensic psychiatrist starts out, they go to medical school, they choose a residency in psychiatry, and for reasons that they can talk about that relate to their lives, they decide to drift into the area of forensic work. And for a psychologist, typically, you know, you go to graduate school and obtain either a PhD or a PsyD. It's in general clinical psychology. And then it's the same thing. You know, some experience with some idea gets you to thinking about how to apply what it is you've learned as a psychologist about human behavior psychopathology to any question that comes up related to, I suppose, human behavior and the law. So in other words, most people think about forensics as being strictly related to criminal behavior, but it could also be civil cases. For example, you know, you go to court because somebody suffered a very serious traumatic brain injury as a consequence of some accident that might have occurred on the job, or maybe they were subject to police brutality and they were beaten to a pulp and suffered, you know, injuries that need to be assessed both psychologically and neuropsychologically, meaning, you know, how the brain is working and what deficits exist. So you might find yourself in court discussing, you know, issues related to a civil case. A lot of psychologists and psychiatrists wind up in family court assessing people for custody issues or family violence or childs.

[B]

So from a day to day sense, is that the job that you're called in by a court to assess an offense offender, a person, and then give your opinion on how that relates to the crime that is being discussed.

[C]

If you're working at a hospital that has a forensic unit or at an agency that has a forensic unit, you know, the courts may in fact, or the jails may send people over to your clinic because they require assessment and treatment. I, on the other hand, after early in my career I was a, I worked at a forensic hospital in D.C. in Maryland, where they had people who had been adjudicated not guilty by reason of insanity. So my early exposure were to people who were very sick. We committed like a lot of serious crimes. I mean, serious. And then after moving to New York, I worked as director of the Family Court Clinic in the Bronx for a period of time and learned about, I don't know, evaluating delinquents, doing neglect abuse evaluations at the judge's request in the courthouse. And beyond that, I opened a private practice and really for the mainstay of my career, I've been a private practitioner and established a practice called New York Forensic, where we take cases that come in from lawyers, the courts. And for at least 30 years, I maintain contracts with the US government to evaluate sex offenders and people with psychiatric problems that are on probation or arrested and they're on pre trial status and the court wants them examined before they go to trial to figure out what's going on. So there's a lot of different ways to do this. And of course, in private practice you're doing treatment with a population are people that are tied into typically the criminal justice system. So a lot of my personal patients that I see are sex offenders. Quite often, sometimes they're people who have suffered sexual abuse, you know, in childhood. And then the rest is doing evaluations. It could be in an office, it could be at a jail, it could be in New York at Bellevue Hospital. I have patients brought from the jails to the hospital to be evaluated.

[B]

When you're doing these evaluations, do you have. I'm trying to think back on my own experience. I went to college and graduate school for psychology and worked in pediatric mental health. And when you start down that road, they teach you the different branches of psychology, psychoanalysis, Jungian psychology, et cetera, et cetera. Do you have a branch of psychology that you use to frame your evaluations? Like psychoanalysis, for example?

[C]

Not evaluations per se. I try to get a sense of who it is I'm looking at and evaluating. So for example, someone's committed a series of rapes, serial rapists, or someone's committed a murder. And you know, my goal is, I'll use a fancy term to phenomenologically understand the context by which this person developed into the person they became and what were the triggers that resulted in this particular crime occurring and then beyond that, what is their level of intellect, personal insight, what obvious symptoms exist that might explain the irrational behavior that seems to have occurred in connection to a crime. Sometimes I get to see videos of the crime, which is always interesting and, and really wild to watch someone getting murdered because where the murder takes place, there are video cameras, or where the sex offense occurs, there are video cameras. So it's not so much, you know, adhering to a theoretic or philosophic construct about how human beings operate. I, I kind of would like to think, I take a very pragmatic, imperial, empirically based approach to doing my evaluations because I have to defend my opinion in court and I have to be able to demonstrate that I've tied point A to point B to point C and have that be credible. Now if I'm working therapeutically with someone who's committed these crimes, then I also, well, I'm kind of, I still say kind of pragmatic, but I, I am interested in sort of, as I said, developmentally and to some degree, analytically, how did this person get to be who they are? I mean, it didn't happen magically.

[B]

I mean, that's, that's the aspect that of, of these ultra violent offenders and these sexual psychopaths that fascinates me. How, where did they come from? How did, how did that stew get made? When you're, when, when you're facing one of these people, when you're sitting across as a clinician from a sexually violent offender and they've provided you the video where you can see the offense and so now you're going to talk to this person, having had that, literally seen it, do you approach them sympathetically? Do you approach them non judgmentally? How do you approach someone like that? Knowing what, having seen what they've done?

[C]

I think I, I think it's a matter of when you do this kind of work, it's a little bit about the way you're wired yourself. You know, it's kind of like how does a surgeon perform surgery on an infant, you know, and sort of cut an infant open in order to do what they need to do? Like people will say, how can you do this? And, and I've been asked many times over the course of my career, how do you sit with someone who's, you know, sexually abused little kids or has committed violent rapes or has committed murder. You've seen the video of the murder and I, I can't explain to you exactly why it's never been repulsive to me. It's been more interesting than repulsive. So I've gotten a chance to see some terrible things, really terrible. But I'm more curious to learn about a, what this person thinks about the crime itself and how they got to be where they're at. A lot of times I don't initially share with the person I'm interviewing that I've seen. I've seen the video.

[B]

You allow them to kind of assume your ignorance in the crime.

[C]

I want them to assume my ignorance and tell me what the whole story is so that I can circle back and later on ask them or tell them, you know. Well, now it's time to share with you that I've actually seen the videotape made and now we have a lot to talk about above and beyond the crime. But why is it that you thought it was a good idea to tell stories about what it is you did when you were captured on video? And you know that.

[B]

And what's their reaction when, when you do this?

[C]

They get upset.

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[C]

they get upset absolutely. Because you know they want to turn around and suggest that you're messing with them. And my response to that is, no one's messing with you. You, you, you killed someone. It's on video, it's clear that you're the person. The question becomes, who are you? You know, don't worry about who I am. Worry about who you are. Yeah. And what brought you to that place? Why in cold blood did you murder your girlfriend in a store when there's a video camera running, having, you know, sort of fleed from the apartment, and he's chasing you with a knife and goes into the store and starts to cut you up, you know, and why are you telling me a story that never occurred? And you know, it never occurred. So why are we to have any face in what it is you have to say about your motivation for doing what you've done? So it becomes an interesting exchange, and I kind of enjoy that as well. You know, it's kind of.

[B]

Yeah, that kind of, I don't know, cat and mouse maybe is the wrong word, but that.

[C]

It's a give and take, and it's a kind of like. It's not so much I gotcha, but it's kind of like, you know, you quickly revealed yourself to be a liar and someone who's not prepared to be forthcoming and clear about what's occurred. So let's talk about how you got to be this guy.

[B]

When you're talking to someone, I'm thinking of like a Joel Rifkin or someone like that who you've interviewed, who is a psychopath, who maybe doesn't have the level of insight into themselves or their crimes. And you get past that and you call them out in this kind of method that you're describing. Do you ever get to a point where they almost are appreciative? I'm thinking, like, they respect you for cutting through the bullshit, for deceiving them in a way, and then realize that you're someone that they could talk to.

[C]

Well, some. Some do and some don't. You know, it depends on how. How bright they are and how insightful they are. Particularly predatory. Use the term psychopath. If they're bright and they're psychopathic, you know, then they want to play a little bit of a game with you. I had this guy that committed murder not too long ago. I happen to be Cuban. I'm from Cuba. I was born in Cuba and grew up in the United States. So a lot of times I get cases with people from Latin America or from the Caribbean. And so that's helpful for. For the courts and helpful for the lawyers that I can go in and talk to them. But this one guy was a. A white American who committed a brutal murder of his girlfriend. And he was. He was really a disturbed personality. He was not psychiatrically disturbed in the sense of schizophrenia. He committed a really brutal murder. It was really something to see. And he showed no concern about her safety or welfare, even after the fact that a kind of recoiled horror about what did I do or anything like that. But what was interesting is he wanted to engage in a little bit of a contest with me to quiz me as to my credentials.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

And I said, you get about a half hour and you can ask me whatever you want about my credentials. But after that, you know, that's the end, there's no more discussion. And, you know, and he wanted to know, like, oh, well, where did you go to school and where did you wind up doing your doctoral studies and what do. And, and he would quiz me as to whether I had heard of someone so and so or this author or that author. And, and I, I was kind of laughing because the, the arrogance was incredible. You know, this man had committed a cold blooded murder. And he's, he's quizzing me to determine whether or not. And I, and my guess was because he was reading me as perhaps Latin or something, you know, he, he wanted to find out, you know, where I had gone to school and everything else. So, you know, I, the fact that I attended Yale and Columbia and, you know, Vanderbilt. I asked him if that was sufficient enough to proceed with a conversation with him about murdering his girlfriend, you know, or did I have to throw in some other schools or other education. And it still wasn't good enough because it became apparent that he wasn't going to discuss the murder. And I had to tell his lawyer, I've got some bad news for you. You're never going to get anything out of him. He's never going to talk about it. He's going to find a reason not to discuss this because he's a very special person, very special. People who commit murder are entitled to do that because after all, his girlfriend must have pissed him off. And I figured, frankly, I said, let me ask you this, I don't know how much you know about your client, but was she trying to kick him out of the apartment and get rid of him because he was, you know, a menacing and a pain in the ass. And he said, I think that's what was going on. I said, that's my guess is that she had had enough of him. But when you're a kind of a brazen narcissist who's so toxic that you're willing to commit murder, you know, no one kicks you out of an apartment and tells you that they've had enough of you. So the Only solution is to kill them. You know, it's kind of wacky, you know, but it's. Yeah, it's part of this guy's personality.

[B]

You know, it makes me think of a comment that we actually, we. We get frequently from our community that because we spend so much time breaking down the psychopathic personality, we. People often comment, I know someone like this in my life, or I was married to someone like this, or this is my mother, this is my father. You know, we get that comment a lot. How, how. How do you approach someone like that in your real life? If you're not a clinician, if you do know someone with those kind of psychopathic personality traits, extreme narcissism, how do you. How do you approach someone like that in your real life?

[C]

Well, in my real life, I say you should be speaking to a shrink.

[B]

I'm more thinking for our audience, how do they approach people like that? Is there any advice you could give them?

[C]

Well, I mean, if they had that type of person in their life, what, what options do they have?

[B]

Yeah. Or just how do you engage with a person like that? You know, if you're.

[C]

I try not to get that deeply involved, you know, and I say it sounds rough, it sounds potentially dangerous. And I think you have a couple of choices. And basically one choice is to really. You have to speak to a. A good, solid therapist and get a handle on how you want to proceed. Or if you're really frightened, you have the option of going to court and getting an order of protection. And you can go that route and have someone kicked out of your house or have them barred from coming to your house. But the stakes are higher when you do that because now you've alerted them to the fact that you. You put them on the radar, you know, in a family court, criminal court. The question would be, you know, it's an interesting thing. If someone is psychopathic, why do you think they. They'd adhere to or give a shit about an order of protection issued by the court? They're willing to kill people sometimes, or they're willing to do terrible things. So that. It's a kind of a. It's kind of like one of the fallacies of the efficacy of the court system is that someone who's potentially quite violent is going to respect an order of protection. So that's why I warn them that it might be opening up a can of worms. That is quite dangerous.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think that speaks to the fundamental problem of the justice system that we don't know if it's for punishment or, or restitution or for rehabilitation. We can't establish that. The justice system doesn't know. We don't know. So it's a difficult problem. But exactly like you say, if you're going to give a psychopath a restraining order, I don't know why you would expect that to work. So maybe the takeaway is if you know someone like this, if you're watching an episode of Unmarked and you're saying, you know, Joel Rifkin or Gary Ridgeway is my husband, you should just get away, perhaps.

[C]

Well, yeah, you get, you could run away. I, I, I do get phone calls sometimes from people who I know are mentally ill. And they're telling me a whole story about their landlord, you know, planting bugs in their house or, you know, video miniature cameras or something like that. And they followed them from house to house. And then I say to myself, well, they're definitely mentally ill. So I try to a shake them, but I want to do so nicely, so I say to them, listen, I think you should collect all your evidence and go to the local police station and bring that to them and see what they say, right? I'm not a police officer, so I can't do anything about that. But if you're that much concerned that this person, this landlord, is spying on you, whatever, collect all your information, go to the police department and see what happens and good luck.

[B]

Yeah, that's, that's good advice for sure.

[C]

Yeah, that's all. You know, I, I don't ever say you're crazy or anything. You know, look, there might be like a very minute chance that something is, is up there. Weird. Not quite the way they're saying it, but, you know, so go to the police with it. You know, they make the mistake. Many people do that. A forensic psychologist or psychiatrist is there at the crime scene with the police. You know, they, they play that out a lot, you know, and, and that, that's, that's just, that's nonsense. You know, you're lucky if after the fact, you know, if there are photographs or video or, you know, there is, you know, physical forensic evidence that people want you to see that's helpful in doing an evaluation. But people do have it in their head that somehow, you know, you were right behind the officers as they bashed down the door, and somehow it was your brilliant profiling that brought them to that house and got the door broken down and you found them in the room with the 5,000 photographs of the person that they are obsessed about. I mean, a lot of that's just fictitious.

[B]

A lot of rewatching. Silence of the Lambs.

[C]

Yeah, along those lines. And students I've had have said that to me, like, oh, what you do is so exciting. And, And I'll say, yeah, try sitting on a wooden bench for four hours before they produce, you know, a defendant. And you see rats running in and out from underneath the radiator, you know, at the jail, And. And explain to me what's exciting about that, you know. Yeah, it's not that exciting.

[B]

So would you say is, you know, as we wrap up here, would you say it's a good career? Would you recommend people pursue forensic psychiatry, psychology?

[C]

You have to have the. The. You have to have the temperament.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, if. If you're thinking about it like a baby or a child or someone who wants excitement, you may be barking up the wrong tree. You know, maybe stick to watching movies. But if you are truly interested in sitting patiently and painstakingly willing to talk to people who have done the unthinkable. I mean, and by the way, a lot of times people you evaluate just do crimes. It's not that they're that interesting. You just have to figure out, oh, yes, you know, they're schizophrenic, they were off their medicine. That's why they threw a brick through a window. That. That's. That. That's the crime. There you go. Fantastic. But the. The fact is, you do. If you enjoy, you know, talking to people and you enjoy thinking about what makes people tick and why would they do things that are unthinkable and you know, how to kind of volley with them and play. Play back and forth. And I don't mean in a disrespectful way. I mean, in a way that, you know, allows you to sort of enter their frame of reference, their world. It could be interesting. And courts can always be interesting. I mean, testimony can be, you know, kind of a fascinating theater where. Where you see so many people misbehaving, including the authorities. You know, you see people lying where, you know, they're lying and they're prosecuting a case or a defense attorney lying and saying things happen that, you know, didn't happen. People go cuckoo in court sometimes and leap over tables and take a run at the expert witness. You know, you got to be prepared for all that. So.

[A]

And.

[C]

And this is what I tell now. This. This is. I'm not saying this in a sexist way, but I think I need to say it. I do say to people, call me up for advice if You're a woman and you want to do this kind of work, you have got to be prepared if you're going to do criminal work, that the initial response from the people you're talking to is going to be to sexualize the experience. You know, you're going to have to be prepared for that, and you're going to have to.

[B]

I would almost think being a woman in the field would be a benefit because, you know, I'm thinking of, you know, the interrogation of. I'm thinking of this because I just recently watched it. The interrogation of Gary Ridgeway, in which Mario Toole, the FBI profiler, is able to really crack through that shell. And, and, and he opens up about everything. Right, because she's a woman, you know, and, and there are, you know, the same thing. I remember the example happening with Jawing Gacy and, and his attorney. And, you know, there, there are many examples where these kind of men who are fixated on. On sadistic violence against women almost. Are they talk to women a little easier sometimes? I don't know.

[C]

Some. Sometimes, possibly. But quite often, you know, the first hurdle is getting over the sexualizing of the contact because you have to understand they're in prison usually when you're seeing them, if it's a serious crime, surrounded by men, and if their crimes were sexually related homicides or serial rapes or anything like that, you know, they're going to view a woman interviewing them as an opportunity to flirt or to say something vulgar or, or say something offsetting,

[B]

like test those boundaries.

[C]

Test the boundaries, you know, And I do warn young women who call me up. I said, you know, you got to be prepared to hear some stuff that might rattle you. Won't rattle you. If you stick with it, you'll learn how to deal with it. And it won't affect you, but at the beginning, it will.

[B]

You alluded to the idea that someone jumped across a table and tried to kill you. Have. Have you had people?

[C]

Yeah, that happened a few times.

[B]

Really? How many times have offenders tried to kill you?

[C]

Offenders have tried to kill me or attack me? Yeah, under 10 times, but it's usually been a couple.

[B]

10 times is a lot, I would say.

[C]

Sometimes it's been in the jails, sometimes it's in court. And when it's in court, it's the wildest thing of all is because they leap over the table where they're sitting with their. Their attorney and they take a run at me.

[B]

And this has happened to you. So the, the defendant has leapt over the table and taken at you while you're in the box.

[C]

Yeah, screaming, you know, you mother effer, you know, and, and I'm sitting there like, okay, well I better be ready. If they hit, if they hit where I'm sitting and these officers are slow, I'm going to have to defend myself.

[B]

When was the last time this happened?

[C]

Attacked? It's been a while, but not too long ago. It was only a few months ago I sat in a room at Bellevue on a case. And at the end of the interview, this fellow takes a large dump in his jumpsuit, declares out loud, I think I just in my pants reaches into his jumpsuit, pulls out a wad of. On his hand. And for four or five seconds, there were the longest four or five seconds I had experienced in a long time because I had no idea what the next move was. Was he going to throw it at me? Was he going to push it, you know, into my face? Was he going to push it onto my jacket or whatever? And his decision was to put his hand in his own mouth and eat the entire content of what was in his hand and then made the declaration that it tasted like shit.

[B]

If that's not an endorsement for a career in forensic psychology, I don't know what is.

[C]

I think that's a great commercial. I think that's enough to, especially for that and watching what you eat, you know, during, during the day, if you want to lose a little weight, go sit through that and then leave and say, gee, I'd love to have some lunch now. You know, that's not what happens. So that was wild. And I did say something absurd to him when he did this.

[B]

What did you say?

[C]

What were you expecting? Cotton candy?

[B]

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