← UNMARKED: A True Crime Podcast
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- [00:00]
James Buddy Day
This episode sponsored by homebase. Homebase is built for small businesses trying to do it all. The neighborhood coffee shop, the local gym, the family run restaurant. With Homebase, you can schedule your team, track time, run payroll, and manage hiring from one easy app so you can spend less time chasing timesheets and more time running the business your customers love. More than 150,000 small businesses already use Homebase to keep their teams on track. Start free@join homebase.com Homebase built for small businesses that do it all. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer is one of those seasons that always looks perfect from a distance. Long days, vacations, barbecues, that time with family. But if you're anything like me, it can also become a season when you're trying to do everything at once. For me, summer usually means more travel, more projects, more events, and somehow less time to actually slow down. And before I know it, I'm always spending more time managing the season than enjoying it. One thing I've learned over the years, whether I'm working on documentaries, writing books, or producing this podcast, it's that if you don't make time for yourself, no one will do it for you. That's one of the reasons therapy can be so, so valuable. It can help you better understand your needs, feel more confident setting boundaries, and create a version of Summer that actually feels good instead of one. You're just trying to survive. I'm proud that BetterHelp continues to support our podcast because it's the world's largest online therapy platform, with over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served globally. They match you with a therapist based on a short questionnaire. I've done it. It's no big deal. And if the fit isn't right, you can switch at any time. You don't have to say yes to everything. This summer, find support in therapy, Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com unmarked. That's better. H E-L-P.com
- [02:07]
Maria DiLorenzo
what he described to me, it's almost like an addiction, this compulsion to go and not only seek sex with women, but want to hurt them, want to kill them.
- [02:17]
James Buddy Day
When someone spends years speaking directly to one of America's most prolific serial killers, I pay attention. Especially when it's a case that changed the way investigators think about serial murder. Gary Ridgeway killed so many women, it took nearly an hour to read all the charges. I strangled Cynthia Hines to death. Is that your statement, Mr. Ridgway?
- [02:41]
Gary Ridgeway
Yes, it is.
- [02:43]
James Buddy Day
In 2001, police arrested Seattle resident Gary Leon Ridgway after DNA linked him to murders attributed to the Green River Killer. But as detectives began interviewing him, as details began to drip out, they realized they hadn't simply caught a serial offender responsible for several murders. They had caught a man whose true victim count may never be known.
- [03:09]
Maria DiLorenzo
My conversations with him is kind of what I was able to conclude, that he really cares about power. He really cares about control. And I think that's at the core of everything that he did.
- [03:21]
James Buddy Day
We don't know how many women gary ridgeway killed. 50, 90. Today I'm examining the entire Green River Killer investigation with author Maria DiLorenzo, who has spent years corresponding with Ridgeway himself, building a rare window into the man behind the crimes.
- [03:42]
Maria DiLorenzo
He has the ability to appear very normal at first.
- [03:47]
James Buddy Day
By the end of this episode, you'll know what Gary Ridgeway is truly driven by, what he's revealed in private conversations and whether his story may be finally coming to an end.
- [04:00]
Maria DiLorenzo
If you could do it again, like would. And he pretty much admitted that if he ever got out of prison, he probably would go and kill again.
- [04:09]
James Buddy Day
I'm James Buddy Day. This is unmarked. Over the years, I've written to Gary Ridgeway several times. He's only replied once. It was about six years ago. An envelope arrived, but it wasn't a letter. Instead, Ridgway mailed me a book. This one, the Richest Caveman, the Doug Batchelor Story. The Autobiography of an American Evangelical Preacher. It's not exactly the sort of book I'd normally pick up, but when the Green River Killer sends you a book, you read it, and I did. Now, there's very little in these pages that's remarkable. Instead, it's a straightforward, self published religious memoir aimed at the followers of bachelor's ministry. But the choice of book is revealing. It reveals the image Ridgeway has carefully cultivated since his sentencing. Now, I'm always skeptical when serial killers discover religion. Sometimes faith represents genuine remorse, sure. But for someone like Gary Ridgeway, a man many experts consider to be a true psychopath, it can just as easily become another way to shape how the world sees him. Especially when that world knows him as perhaps the most prolific serial killer ever convicted in American history. But before we get into Ridgway's conversion, let me catch you up. On November 5, 2003, Gary Leon Ridgway stood before a packed Seattle courtroom and pled guilty to 48 counts of aggravated first degree murder. A year later, he admitted to one more, bringing his total convictions to 49. A blue collar truck painter from the Seattle area. Ridgway spent decades refining his craft. Beginning in the early 1980s and continuing for years, he operated as the Green River Killer. He targeted vulnerable women, all sex workers, along the Highway 99 strip, a corridor near Seattle Tacoma International Airport. Now is 49. His true victim count? Almost certainly not something made clear when prosecutors confirmed the details of his plea. I killed so many women, I have a hard time keeping them straight. I wanted to kill as many women I thought were prostitutes as I possibly could. Is that true?
- [06:49]
Gary Ridgeway
Yes.
- [06:50]
James Buddy Day
I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught. Ridgeway doesn't know how many women he killed. Detectives don't know. Nobody knows. But even if we could put an exact number on it, it still wouldn't give us the answers to questions that matter most. Who is Gary Ridgeway? What drove him? Where does someone like him come from?
- [07:19]
Maria DiLorenzo
I knew that, like, just, you know, from what you read, right, what you know of the case, there had to be more victims. And, you know, he was convicted for 49. He had told police 71.
- [07:33]
James Buddy Day
That's Maria DiLorenzo, a true crime journalist who just published a new book. I have it right here. Conversations of the Green River, A true story of manipulation, Madness, and a search for justice. When Maria sent me this advanced reading copy, I was genuinely excited. I'll take almost any excuse to revisit the Green River Killer.
- [07:56]
Maria DiLorenzo
I wrote him a letter in 2020. I was not expecting a response and such a quick response, but he did. Within a few weeks, he called me.
- [08:07]
James Buddy Day
I can relate to Maria's experience because it's remarkably similar to what happened when I wrote to Charles Manson. And like me, she reached out expecting nothing, but instead she found herself in regular conversations with one of the most infamous serial killers in American history.
- [08:24]
Maria DiLorenzo
There was a point he was calling me almost every day, and we were talking for an hour, if not more, because at that time it was during COVID and they were at the prison, very short staffed. I remember having one phone call with him that lasted like, it was like five hours. So, like, they would, like, just like, forget him or, you know, they're just. They weren't enough people. So we would end up talking for a good amount of time. And that went on for a couple years.
- [08:56]
James Buddy Day
After hundreds of hours speaking with Gear Ridgeway, what did Maria learn that the rest of us still don't understand? If you've been with me for a while, you know how this works. We don't begin where the headlines begin. We begin where the story Begins. Serial killers aren't born in a single moment. They're shaped over time. So to understand Gary Ridgeway completely, we have to go all the way back to the beginning. A lot has been written about Gary Ridgeway's childhood, and as I work through the research, something keeps bothering me. We can't take much of it at face value. When you start tracing the footnotes in books, documentaries, and academic papers about the Green river killer, the same pattern keeps appearing. Much of what we think we know about Gary Ridgeway's upbringing ultimately comes from a single source. Gary Ridgeway. After his arrest, Ridgway spent years talking to investigators, psychologists, and the FBI. Those interviews are extraordinary. And throughout this episode, I'll be playing portions of those recordings because they offer a rare look inside the mind of a serial killer killer. But these excerpts also come with a warning label. Ridgway is a psychopath. Now, that doesn't automatically make everything he says false, but it does make him an unreliable narrator whose omissions are telling. Listen to how Maria describes Gary's reluctance to speak about his childhood.
- [10:37]
Maria DiLorenzo
He would only speak highly of his parents. You know, he made it clear that he would be disciplined as a child. And, you know, it just seemed like he. He accepted all of that as normal.
- [10:50]
James Buddy Day
So what can we say with confidence? Gary Leon Ridgway is born on February 18, 1949. He spends part of his early childhood in Utah before his family settles in the Seattle area. His father, Tom, is a bus driver. His mother, mary, works at JCPenney. He grows up with two brothers. Those are the facts. Beyond that, we increasingly move into Gary Ridgway's version of events. And in his version, Ridgway claims he becomes fixated on his mother at a very young age. One paper I found describes it this. Mary Ridgeway dominated the household with her brazenness and odd forms of child rearing. Ridgeway's father, Tom, was a meek man who never stood up to his wife. End quote. You will find that description, almost that identical description repeated throughout the literature. It's neat, it's memorable, and it seems to explain everything. But it doesn't. What it really tells us is how Gary chooses to frame his childhood. A domineering mother, a passive father, a home that, in retrospect, seems to explain the monster that. That he becomes. But modern research doesn't support such a simple explanation. Psychopathy has a substantial genetic component. And while childhood experiences can shape how these traits are expressed, there is little evidence that a single parent or a particular family dynamic creates a serial killer. So we have to separate what we know happened from the story that Gary tells. And when we look at school records, they paint a different picture. They describe a withdrawn student with severe learning disabilities, a blunt affect and repeated disciplinary problems. He gets caught breaking windows on multiple occasions. He later describes overwhelming feelings of anger which he expresses by shooting dogs with BB guns at this time. Ridgway also develops an obsessive habit of making lists and recording events as a coping strategy for poor short term memory. This is something that will become much darker later.
- [13:15]
Maria DiLorenzo
He would make lists and which that's very true of his personality. He loves to make lists. Every phone call I had with him, he would have a list of things he wanted to about talk, talk to me about. So that's just something he does. That's a very Gary thing to make lists.
- [13:30]
James Buddy Day
Ridgway will later tell investigators that his memory of his childhood is unreliable. For example, he isn't sure whether as a child, if he drowned a young boy in a nearby lake. Now, I know that sounds unbelievable. How could he not know? And what's striking is that public records around that time show two possible drownings. Now, there's no evidence linking Ridgway to either death specifically, and investigators are never able to substantiate these claims. But it shows the fog that hangs over Ridgway's childhood. And we do know about another incident. Ridgway lures a younger boy into the woods after school and stabs him. This is Ridgway from his FBI interrogation, describing this event.
- [14:19]
Gary Ridgeway
I stabbed a kid one time. Okay. Stabbed a kid with a knife.
- [14:25]
Maria DiLorenzo
Tell me about that.
- [14:30]
Gary Ridgeway
Down by Chinook, where I used to go to school. Boy was playing. I stabbed him inside and didn't kill him. And must have been about sixth grade.
- [14:48]
James Buddy Day
Ridgway is held back in grade school twice before graduating high school in 1969 at the age of 20. Throughout his youth, there are repeated conversations with school officials about placing him in a school for intellectually disabled students. There are reports that he begins to follow women who reject him around. Around this time, we also see a fixation on fire setting. All of this tells us far more about the trajectory of his development than any explanation he later offers investigators.
- [15:23]
Maria DiLorenzo
In my conversations with him is kind of what I was able to conclude, that he really cares about power. He really cares about control. And I think that's at the core of everything that he did.
- [15:36]
James Buddy Day
So it was more than sexual gratification.
- [15:38]
Maria DiLorenzo
That was a part of it for sure. But I think it goes beyond that. I think with him, it's Really a matter of power and control.
- [15:47]
James Buddy Day
At this point, a picture is emerging. Gary Ridgway is a withdrawn, lonely young man with a blank stare. He's impulsive, struggles to relate to his peers. He seems to have little insight into why he's unable to connect with the people around him. And that's the key. Ridgway's inability to form healthy attachments, beginning with his parents, appears to become the foundation upon which his crimes are later built. While the outside world sees a quiet, awkward teenager, his inner world is becoming increasingly dominated by violent, sadistic fantasy. In Ridgway's case, we have an unusually detailed picture of his fantasy life. Through the FBI interviews, police reports, witness statements, and his conversations with Maria DiLorenzo.
- [16:42]
Maria DiLorenzo
What he described. To me, it's almost like an addiction, like these, you know, this compulsion to go and, you know, not only seek sex with women, but, like, go and, like, want to hurt them, want to kill them.
- [16:55]
James Buddy Day
How does this addiction, as Ridgway describes it, come about? As I work through the records, two themes emerge again and again. The first is his mother. As Ridgway enters adolescence, he recalls his fantasies becoming increasingly violent. He later describes an inner world where sex, anger, and his mother become intertwined. In one instance, he describes a fantasy of cutting his mother's throat with a kitchen knife. Not to kill her, but to scar her permanently, because he believes he can never satisfy her expectations. This is an excerpt from Gary Ridgway's FBI confession to Special Agent Mario Toole. And I want you to listen to how she conducts the interview. Rather than confronting Ridgeway's version of events, she lets him keep talking, allowing the fantasy to unfold in his own words.
- [17:56]
Maria DiLorenzo
What was in your mind that you wanted to do to get her to treat you a certain way? What did you want to do to your mom here?
- [18:07]
Gary Ridgeway
I wanted her to stop being angry at me for not knowing how to. But she.
- [18:17]
Maria DiLorenzo
She wasn't stopping.
- [18:18]
Gary Ridgeway
No, she wasn't stopping, was she? No.
- [18:20]
Maria DiLorenzo
She kept picking at you, belittling you, embarrassing you.
- [18:26]
James Buddy Day
What Gary's describing in this clip is a lifelong belief that his mother belittled and degraded him. Now, again, the reality of these situations is not as important as Gary's perception of them. Ridgway holds an ingrained hatred of his mother combined with a lust for her. Now, for much of the 20th century, many psychologists would have viewed these admissions through the lens of Sigmund Freud's Oedipus complex, the idea that young boys experience unconscious sexual desire toward their mother alongside hostility towards their father. This theory has had an enormous influence on psychology and popular culture or over the years. In fact, Ridgeway describes Freud's theory almost exactly.
- [19:16]
Gary Ridgeway
I'd see her out sunbathing and. I feel that she know she be good to have. Have sex with. But she, she's my mother and I never no different, never really is the only woman in, in my life other than, you know, neighbor 1 girls but so she get fantasies of having sex with her.
- [19:54]
James Buddy Day
And today there is scant empirical evidence that an unresolved Oedipus complex leads to violent offending. But Freud's theory gives us a framework for understanding how Ridgway understands himself. Throughout his interviews, he consistently frames women, especially his mother, as both objects of desire and sources of resentment. That fusion of sexuality, anger and humiliation becomes a recurring pattern in the way he describes his own life.
- [20:27]
Gary Ridgeway
I thought of about hurting her so she shut up and leave me alone.
- [20:33]
Maria DiLorenzo
And how did you think about hurting your mom?
- [20:37]
Gary Ridgeway
Killing her.
- [20:39]
James Buddy Day
But if we stop with Ridgeway's mother, we risk accepting his explanation for the man he becomes. And I don't think the evidence supports something that simple. While working through Ridgeway's FBI interviews, I found an unpublished passage that almost nobody talks about in this transcript. Ridgway recalls driving with his father as a young boy. According to Gary, Tom Ridgeway would make degrading remarks about sex workers before pulling over and leaving Gary alone in the car while he went off with them. What struck me wasn't simply this story itself, it was the pattern. Years later, Gary Ridgeway repeats almost the same behavior in this excerpt from his FBI confession. He describes picking up a sex worker while his seven year old son Matthew is sitting beside him in the truck.
- [21:33]
Gary Ridgeway
It was July 18th. I think it was my brother's birthday that weekend. I picked up a woman on Pack highway and Matthew was next to me in the seat and she hopped in and. And I took her over to. In the south airport area and. Took her into an area and my son was there and I killed her. I'm real sure my son didn't see it, but that only happened one time.
- [22:17]
James Buddy Day
What strikes me isn't simply the parallel, it's the underlying fantasy. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer is one of those seasons that always looks perfect from a distance. Long days, vacations, barbecues, that time with family. But if you're anything like me, it can also become a season when you're trying to do anything, everything at once. For me, summer usually means more travel, more projects, more events, and somehow less time to actually slow down and before I know it, I'm always spending more time managing the season than enjoying it. One thing I've learned over the years, whether I'm working on documentaries, writing books, or producing this podcast, it's that if you don't make time for yourself, no one will do it for you. That's one of the reasons therapy can be so valuable. It can help you better understand your needs, feel more confident setting boundaries, and create a version of summer that actually feels good instead of one you're just trying to survive. I'm proud that BetterHelp continues to support our podcast because it's the world's largest online therapy platform, with over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served globally. They match you with a therapist based on based on a short questionnaire. I've done it. It's no big deal. And if the fit isn't right, you can switch at any time. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com unmarked. That's better. H E L P.com forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest, and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love, with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P I N Q U E-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Throughout Ridgeway's life, desire and resentment exist side by side. But fantasies don'. Victims. For that, Ridgeway needs opportunity. That's the second theme I found in the Green River Killer geography. In a thesis for Seattle University, a researcher named Natalie V. Castillo makes an observation that I keep coming back to. She says the known victims of the Green River Killer all have two things in common. Gary Ridgeway and Pacific Highway South. By the time Ridgway is 11 years old, his family is living near Seattle Tacoma International Airport. It's the early 1960s, and the area is booming. Sea Tac expands, and Pacific highway south becomes one of the fastest growing commercial corridors in the region. We're talking about motels, restaurants, cocktail lounges, bowling alleys, shopping centers. As I dig through newspaper archives from the period, the corridor is repeatedly described as Seattle's answer to the Las Vegas Strip. But this prosperity, it does not last. As Ridgeway enters adulthood, he watches the landscape change. Interstate 5 diverts much of the long distance traffic away from Pacific Highway South. At the same time, the airport continues its expansion, bringing aircraft noise and the demolition of nearby homes. The decline of the area is gradual, but it's unmistakable. Motels begin to struggle. Some become weekly rentals. Crime increases. By the late 1970s, the SeaTac Strip has become one of the largest street prostitution corridors in America. Now imagine all of that through Gary Ridgway's eyes. For starters, in August 1970, a year out of high school at 21 years old, Gary marries a woman named Claudia Craig. Almost immediately, the couple relocates to San Diego, where Ridgway serves in the U.S. navy. And when he returns home the following year, he claims that he discovers that Claudia has been unfaithful.
- [26:41]
Maria DiLorenzo
He was in the Navy at the time, stationed in the Philippines and also Vietnam. He was all over the place for a while and he had come home to find out, you know, she had been involved with somebody else and no longer wanted to be with him. And that really his words, he told me that's when all hell broke loose for him in his life.
- [27:04]
James Buddy Day
That's Gary's version of events. But the record, it tells a more complicated story. Story Although the marriage deteriorates quickly, Gary and Claudia don't separate immediately. Instead, they return to Seattle, live briefly with Ridgway's parents, then relocate closer to SeaTac before eventually divorcing. This is what I mean by considering Gary's perspective. As his marriage collapses, the SeaTac strip is changing around him. The same highway he grows up, besides is becoming a marketplace for sex work. And that's when Gary Ridgeway becomes a regular customer.
- [27:43]
Maria DiLorenzo
He didn't have a difficult time finding women to date. Women were very much attracted to him. And he had many girlfriends, you know, once he was divorced. And he was divorced at a very young age. I mean, he was still in his early 20s. He had no trouble attracting women, which that. That leads me to conclude that the victims that he selected, it was just because they were extremely vulnerable.
- [28:12]
James Buddy Day
Now, as far as we know, Gary does not engage with sex workers for the first time near SeaTac. In his military medical records, they show that he is treated for gonorrhea after reporting sex with a prostitute while serving in the Navy in the Philippines. But it's the women on the SeaTac Strip who later describe encounters with Ridgway that offer us more insight. One sex worker recalls that during intercourse, Ridgway would suddenly attempt to choke her. And former partners describe something remarkably similar. They say Ridgway preferred Having sex outdoors, often in wooded areas, and would frequently place women in a chokehold during sexual.
- [28:56]
Maria DiLorenzo
Before he started to really kill with, like, the intentions to kill, he was choking women, but with the intention to, like, not kill them, but, like, they would be unconscious.
- [29:10]
James Buddy Day
Those aren't isolated incidents. They're the earliest documented expressions of the fantasy. We've already seen developing intimacy followed by absolute domination, a confluence of desire and disgust.
- [29:26]
Maria DiLorenzo
He has a deep seated rage or hatred for women. I mean, he completely objectifies women, but at the same time, I don't know if this is something like, he could even control. Like, I don't know the extent of, like, the control he has over, like, his thoughts, because it just seemed something that was, like, embedded within him.
- [29:52]
James Buddy Day
Ridgway is profoundly impaired in his ability to relate to other people in a conventional sense. Years later, he tells investigators he never sees the women he kills as people. To him, they're just objects that he repeatedly refers to as, quote, garbage.
- [30:11]
Maria DiLorenzo
He even would say to me, like. Like, there were a couple times he said, well, I don't know why I'm like this. And, you know, he would say, I have absolutely no feeling for people, and I don't know what made me like this, and I don't know if anything would have made me different.
- [30:25]
James Buddy Day
Ridgway consistently denies taking pleasure in making his victims suffer. Unlike some serial killers, he insists that he isn't interested in torture. He just wants them dead quickly. For Ridgway, strangulation isn't simply a method of murder. It's a physical expression of absolute control.
- [30:46]
Maria DiLorenzo
One thing I noticed in his interrogation with the police in 2003, like, he. A lot of the. A lot of the fantasies that he had shared with me were things that, like, he was thinking back then. So it's like this has been on a loop in his mind for how many years? Right.
- [31:05]
James Buddy Day
Even more revealing are Ridgway's justifications. During his confessions, he will claim that the police should have been grateful. In his mind, he's removing prostitutes from the streets, doing a job that law enforcement can't stop and think about that for a moment. He acts as if his serial murders are a public service.
- [31:26]
Maria DiLorenzo
He even told me that he believed that nobody would miss like them, and that's why he targeted them. But I think if he was, like, really capable and he knew there, you know, there wouldn't be, you know, repercussions or it wouldn't happen as quickly. I think he would have targeted all women.
- [31:48]
James Buddy Day
I want to paint a picture of Gary Ridgeway's life in the early 1980s. Because I think it explains the moment serial murder stops being fantasy and becomes routine. Imagine the SeaTac Strip in 1980. We're now talking about neon motel signs, cocktail lounges spilling music onto the Pacific Highway. 24 hour diners that serve truckers and airport workers. Women walk the sidewalks looking for customers. Cars creep slowly along the curb, Drivers pretending they aren't looking for. For exactly what everyone knows they're looking for. Ridgeway lives within walking distance in a modest apartment. After work, he follows the same routine. On almost any given night, Gary Ridgway parks his pickup truck outside a 711 on the Strip and raises the hood, making it appear as though the engine has broken down. Then he waits. Sooner or later, a woman approaches. Ridgway isn't physically imposing at this time. He's 5 foot 9, about 145 pounds. By now he's been married twice and divorced twice. He has a young son, Matthew, who he sees on the weekends. Ridgway finds work at the Kenworth truck plant where he'll remain for the next 20 years. He negotiates a price for sex and then they leave together, either returning to his apartment or driving somewhere secluded, using a key camper on the back of his truck. This is the routine. But at some point, the women Gary Ridgeway meet stop surviving these encounters. The question is when?
- [33:38]
Maria DiLorenzo
According to him, he. He doesn't remember his first victim, which I. I think it's. I mean he's been saying that to everybody for years. There was supposedly a victim that he was unsure if he killed her or he wasn't sure if he killed her or not that he had strangled in a parking lot in downtown Seattle. This was like, I want to say like late 81, but like he was under the impression because a body was never found, that she probably got up and walked away.
- [34:10]
James Buddy Day
Officially, Gary Ridgeway's first victim is 16 year old Wendy Lee Cofield. According to the King County Sheriff's Office, she's murdered in July of 1982. But that same month, Ridgway kills at least three additional victims in rapid succession. So according to the official account, Ridgway doesn't emerge as an inexperienced killer. He appears to already have a system. With that in mind, there are two reasons I think Wendy Lee Cofield is. Is probably not Gary Ridgway's first victim. The first comes from Ridgway himself. Years later, he describes a remarkably refined method. He gets his victims to remove their clothing. Then he tells them that he hears something nearby. As the woman instinctively turns her head. He uses a chokehold to strangle her. This is the kind of routine offenders develop through years of experience. The second clue comes from something Ridgway readily admits about himself. He knows he has poor memory. And during his confessions, he explains that he eventually develops a strategy that he calls clustering. Rather than scattering the bodies randomly through King county, he leaves three to five victims together near landmarks he knows he'll remember. And according to the Green river case files, Wendy Cofield and several of the earliest victims are all recovered from one of these clusters. So if Ridgway already has a method of murder and he's already using a disposal system by the summer of 1982, a system designed to solve a problem created by multiple victims, then it suggests that by the time he kills Wendy Lee Cofield, his evolution as a serial killer is already well underway.
- [36:00]
Maria DiLorenzo
In my research that there were a lot of cases that had gone unsolved from the time period when he was active and, you know, all cases involving sex workers.
- [36:12]
James Buddy Day
The potential victims Maria is referring to support the idea that Ridgway's killing may have begun before the official timeline. For example, Louise Marie Sanders disappears on February 15, 1981. She's a sex worker who was last seen leaving with an unidentified client and is never seen again. Her body has never been recovered. Then there's 16 year old Leann Virginia Wilcox. She likely dies sometime in December 1981 or January of 1982. Wilcox is known to police as a SeaTac area sex worker with prior arrests for prosecution prostitution related offenses. Her body is discovered in a landscaping equipment yard in Auburn. Her manner of death shares characteristics with many of Ridgeway's later victims. The same is true of 16 year old Joanne Lucinda Connor, murdered on February 4, 1982, and Teresa Klein, whose body is found in April of 1982 after disappearing from Aurora Avenue, Seattle's other major prostitution corridor connected to the Same State Route 99 that runs through the SeaTac Strip. Can we conclusively attribute these women to Gary Ridgeway? No. But what we can say is by early 1982, Ridgeway is a regular customer of sex workers living and working along the SEATAC strip. At precisely the same time vulnerable women from that community begin disappearing or turning up murdered in strikingly similar circumstances. And in the same time period, Ridgway himself is arrested for soliciting a sex worker.
- [37:55]
Maria DiLorenzo
When it comes to the murders, he had told me this. This number, which, who knows, right? 81 to 92, that was the range he gave me. I really don't know if it's how he knows that for sure, if he knows it for sure. But that's what he, he was telling me.
- [38:13]
James Buddy Day
We know Ridgeway picks up Wendy Lee Cofield on or around July 12, 1982. Algae recovered during her autopsy later helps investigators establish this timeline. Exactly how he approaches Wendy is not known. But later, Ridgway describes using what he calls as, quote, ruses. These are predatory tactics designed to lower a victim's guard. This is an excerpt of Gary explaining to FBI profiler Mario Toole how this all works.
- [38:46]
Gary Ridgeway
A woman wouldn't get in the car.
- [38:48]
Maria DiLorenzo
She's already in.
- [38:49]
Gary Ridgeway
She's in the car. Let's say she's always in the car, driving down the road and she first, she wants to see my id. So I whip out my id and with my ID would be my. I put my finger over my driver's license to hide my name. But on the opposite side was a picture of my son. And they would see to see my son and they would know I was a probably normal person.
- [39:20]
James Buddy Day
When I'm speaking with author Maria DiLorenzo, she described seeing this aspect of Gary Ridgeway's personality firsthand.
- [39:27]
Maria DiLorenzo
He has the ability to appear very normal at first. He could easily have a conversation with you about like he would talk to me about New York and Washington and camping and politics and, you know, just all these like random topics that you would talk to a friend about. But as normal as that may appear, like he would always find a way to then kind of shift the conversation into like a topic that was perverse, like not something that like a person would bring up in like normal conversation.
- [40:05]
James Buddy Day
Are you talking like jokes or these, like what do you, what do you mean? How do you work this in?
- [40:10]
Maria DiLorenzo
I mean, it could be a joke, like he would make a lot of, you know, sexual jokes and stuff. But then it was also just like he became adamant in like telling me that I could be and killed and this is what could happen to you and you have to protect yourself and you have to get out of New York.
- [40:29]
James Buddy Day
Back in 1982, 16 year old Wendy Lee Cofield is already well known to police and social services. She struggles with heroin addiction after a childhood marked by instability. The year before her death, she's hospitalized following depression and self harm. She runs away repeatedly and survives through petty theft, forged checks and sex work. In other words, Wendy is exactly the kind of young woman Gary Ridgway is looking for. After murdering Wendy, Ridgway transports her body from his apartment. In the back of his pickup truck, he carries the remains Beneath the Meeker street bridge where he drops them in the Green River. This is the first body found in in this cluster. But in subsequent months, investigators recover four more young women. 23 year old Debra Lynn Bonner, who had been working alongside the Strip for several years. Weeks before she disappears, she's arrested twice for solicitation. When her family reports her missing, they later learn the investigation moves slowly because she's considered transient. Then there's 31 year old Marsha Fay Chapman, who, who disappears on August 1st. And 17 year old Cynthia Jean Hines, known to friends as Cookie, who's last seen on August 11 getting into a vehicle outside a convenience store at South 200th street and Pacific highway South. Investigators later conclude the driver is Gary Ridgeway. The following day, ridgeway picks up 16 year old opal Charmaine Mills, who becomes the final victim found in this cluster. Two things stand out at this point. The first is Ridgway's pace. Something changes during the summer of 1982. Whatever hesitation that once existed within him, it's gone. The killings come so quickly, they begin to blur together, even for Ridgway himself. Between July and September of 1982, investigators ultimately connect at least seven additional victims to Ridgeway's early killing spree. I want you to look at this map. These are the bodies recovered between 1982 and 1983. Now, this includes 24 known and suspected victims. But if Gary Ridgeway is telling the truth about his victim count, we're looking at less than half of the homicides that occurred during this period. Still, what immediately stands out to me are the six clusters. The Green River, Star Lake, Military Road, South 188th Street, South 212th street and Mountain View Cemetery. The obvious question is why? We've already talked about the practical reason. Ridgway says he has a poor memory. And during his confessions, he explains that grouping bodies together helped him remember where he left them.
- [43:30]
Maria DiLorenzo
He said, well, they're all mine then, right? If a woman was found strangled, she was found naked. If she was a sex worker and in a location where he left other victims, they have to be his. So I mean, it's a very vague
- [43:45]
James Buddy Day
confession, but I don't think memory tells us the whole story. The clusters reveal something about the way Ridgeway thinks. Unlike many psychopathic offenders, Ridgeway never appears to believe, believe that he's invincible. Throughout his crimes, he behaves like someone who knows he could be caught. So he plans. Looking at the map, no single cluster contains more than five victims. And we know that Ridgeway leaves chewing gum and cigarette butts beside the bodies. Even though he neither smokes nor chews gum. It's all about throwing the investigators off. He even trims victims fingernails because he worries investigators might recover his blood from defensive scratches. Every decision points in the same direction. Methodical preparation. Take the murder of 21 year old Carol Christensen on May 8, 1983. Instead of leaving her in one of his established clusters, Ridgway transports the body to Maple Valley. There he stages the scene. He places two trouts across her chest. He balances an empty bottle of Lambrusco wine on her stomach. And he arranges sausage in her hands, carefully positioning her clothing. It's a deliberate departure from his routine to throw off investigators. But there is another reason these clusters matter so much to Ridgeway. A darker reason. Necrophilia. Now, when most people hear that word, they think of intimacy with corpses. The research paints a much more complicated picture. Modern researchers describe several subtypes of necrophilia. And Ridgway appears to exhibit characteristics of more than one. One of these subtypes is called fetishistic necrophilia. Researchers describe offenders who keep bones, hair, jewelry, photographs and other objects connected to their victims. These objects are called totems, a physical reminder that the offender can return again and again to the memory of the crime. In other words, the sexual gratification doesn't necessarily come from the body itself. It comes from possession of things associated with the bodies. When detectives eventually search Ridgway's home after his arrest, they recover bone fragments, tufts of human hair, costume jewelry, latex gloves, wigs and other blood stained items. And when I ask Maria about this, she tells me that Ridgeway claims there are much more.
- [46:27]
Maria DiLorenzo
He also mentioned a box of evidence that exists, according to him, that he buried in Washington somewhere.
- [46:37]
James Buddy Day
This has not been found found. This box of evidence?
- [46:40]
Maria DiLorenzo
No, hasn't been found. When I spoke to one of the members of the task force, the original task force, he believed that it existed. A couple of them really believed it existed. And they had good reason to, just because during their interviews with him back in 2003, Gary did mention polaroids that he had taken of his victims.
- [47:04]
James Buddy Day
According to Ridgway's conversations with Maria, this box is actually a buried safe containing photographs, spiral notebooks and other keepsakes that could identify additional victims. Now, whether that safe exists is impossible to know. But the claim is consistent with the psychology we've already seen. Ridgway's need for control doesn't end when the victims die. Now, all this isn't to say that Ridgway did not also engage physically with the bodies. He very much did. Which is why the research suggests that he falls into multiple subcategories of necrophilic behavior. This includes what researchers refer to as homicidal necrophilia. Let me read you an excerpt from a research paper which references Ridgway in this context. Also known as violent necrophiles or lagna nectars, which are people who. Who kill in order to have sex with a corpse. The practice is often known as homicidophilia. The term warm necrophilia may also be applied to these cases since intercourse is attempted on fresh bodies and the recently dead. End quote. In other words, Ridgway's fascination with bodies isn't romantic or sentimental, it's practical. During his FBI interviews, he explains that Ridge returning to the victims means he can satisfy his sexual urges without paying a sex worker. And I want to talk about this macabre pragmatism just for a moment. Gary has a borderline IQ. It's mid to low 80s. Many of his darkest decisions are motivated by simple incentives, like being frugal. Digging through the case files, I came across statements from Ridgeway's name neighbors where they describe garage sales that he held in his driveway. According to these witnesses, Gary sold shoes, purses, jewelry and other personal belongings. Items investigators believe came from the victims. Think about what that means for a minute. It's almost a form of evidence laundering. But it's not motivated by malice. He's just trying to make a buck. It shows that his victims never stop being objects in his mind. By this time, a task force is assembled by the Kings County Sheriff's Office. But resources fluctuate dramatically over the following years. I found this newspaper clipping from 1987. At the time, the Green River Task Force believes the killer is responsible for three 37 murders and nine additional disappearances. Knowing what we know today, that's almost certainly a conservative estimate. And it doesn't include the women I believe Ridgway murdered before Wendy Lee Caufield. Still, the article is fascinating for another reason. It shows that by 1987, the investigation has already consumed more than $1.4 million. Detectives have purchased and are using a dedicated computer to catalog all the evidence. More than 800 suspects have been investigated at this point. And yet the article also reports that 12 investigators have already been transferred off the task force. This is despite growing public concern. And by this point, the FBI has also produced a behavioral profile of the Green River Killer. In fact, I found a remarkable paper entitled Profiling. A retrospective analysis of criminal profiling through the Green River Investigation. Researchers look back at the case with the benefit of hindsight and argue that the FBI profile wasn't simply incomplete. It was fundamentally wrong. The FBI profile assumes that the Green River Killer was be highly mobile, marginally employed and incapable of maintaining long term relationships. Gary Ridgway turns out to be almost the exact opposite. He spends decades in the same geographic area. He holds the same job at Kenworth for more than 20 years. He marries three times and maintains long term relationships throughout the entire duration of the homicides. It's an example of how easy it is to get lost in the mythology surrounding the Green River Killer investigation. The profilers write books, the detectives write books. Documentaries are made that celebrate this incomplete investigation. But for me, here's the moment I keep coming Back to. On April 30, 1983, Ridgway picks up 18 year old Marie Malvar along the SeaTac Strip. What he doesn't realize is that she's being watched by her boyfriend, who's also her pimp. This man follows Ridgway's truck, but eventually loses sight of it. When Marie fails to return, he and her father begin driving the neighborhood trying to find her. It's then that they find Gary Ridgway's truck parked outside his house. It's less than a mile from where Marie disappears. These vigilantes report the truck to police. Investigators visit Ridgeway at work and he admits to being a regular customer of the sex workers along the SeaTac Strip. And according to the official case summary, this marks the beginning of multiple interviews with Ridgway, during which he acknowledges picking up at least two women who later become victims and one of his men. Major interviews is conducted within weeks of a homicide. At one point, detectives even obtain a search warrant and search his house. Remember, this is the 80s and Ridgeway is not identified as the Green river killer until 2001. Yet more than a decade before. Investigators are collecting hundreds of items from his home. Paint samples, DNA. Enough material that if testing had been conducted sooner, investigators could have linked Ridgway to multiple homicide victims years before his eventual arrest. But the critical DNA testing is not completed until 14 years later. And that has a real world cost. In the Green River Killer case, there are simply too many victims to tell every story. We could talk about. Roberta Joseph Hayes, known to friends as Bobby Jo. She runs away at 12, gives birth to her first child at 15, struggles with addiction, raises five children before turning 21, and then disappears after being released from jail for solicitation. In February of 1980. Seven years later, Ridgway leads investigators to her remains. And there are dozens of stories just like this one. Books, documentaries and podcasts have done important work restoring these women to history. But I want you to notice something else. The pattern. As the 1990s approach, Ridgeway's pace slows dramatically. Looking at the confirmed and likely victims, roughly 72% occur during just two years, 1982 and 1983. And more than 80% of the homicides occur between 1981 and 1984, fewer than 20% occurring after that. The traditional explanation for this is Ridgeway's third marriage. By 1988, he marries a woman named Judith Mawson. By virtually every account, it's the most stable relationship with of Ridgeway's life. Judith will later describe him as affectionate, attentive and deeply devoted.
- [55:11]
Maria DiLorenzo
He started to slow down, but like, he never stopped like that. That's what I got from him.
- [55:16]
James Buddy Day
Ridgeway tells investigators much the same thing. He never says that the fantasy disappears, only that it becomes less frequent. And there's another possibility that Maria de Lorenzo points out. There are numerous dis disappearances and homicides from the 90s that require further investigation.
- [55:35]
Maria DiLorenzo
I mean I, I came across two cases, Nicole French and Sarah Habakkongas. They were both murdered in the early 90s and it fits the pattern. I mean I had even spoken to one of the medical examiners and he couldn't understand why Gary was ruled out. It just doesn't make sense. And like I had tried, I really, really tried to get evidence retested that should still be on file. And King County Sheriff's office just would not work with me.
- [56:07]
James Buddy Day
Gary Ridgeway is arrested on November 30, 2001 after investigators match the DNA sample they collected from him 14 years earlier during the investigation into the disappearance of 18 year old Marie Malvar. The DNA is a match to evidence recovered from four victims. 16 year old Wendy Lee Cofield, murdered in July of 1982. 23 year old Deborah Lynn Bonner, murdered later that same month. 17 year old Cynthia Jane Hinds, known as Cookie, murdered in August of 1982. And 16 year old opal Charmaine Mills, also murdered In August of 1982, nearly 20 years after the Green river murders begin. Science succeeds where the investigation has failed. Ridgway's arrest marks the beginning of interviews with FBI agents, detectives, prosecutors, all working towards the same goal to determine exactly who Gary Ridgway has killed. In exchange for his full cooperation, Prosecutors structure an extraordinary plea agreement. Agreement Gary Ridgway agrees to plead guilty to 48 counts of aggravated first degree murder and to continue identifying additional victims whenever new evidence or new memories emerge. In return, the state agrees not to seek the death penalty. Given the scope of Gary's crimes, it's one of the most controversial plea agreements in American criminal history. Supporters argue it gives dozens of families answers that they might never otherwise receive. But critics, they believe that Gary Ridgway escapes the punishment his crimes deserve. For example, in 2011, Ridgway pleads guilty to the murder of Rebecca Becky Marrero. This brings his total number of murder convictions to 49. And at his sentencing, Becky's sister, Mary Marrero, she makes her feelings about the plea agreement unmistakably clear. He's a waste of society and a waste of space.
- [58:17]
Maria DiLorenzo
If I had one thing to ask you today, it would be kill him.
- [58:23]
James Buddy Day
He has beat the system just like
- [58:25]
Maria DiLorenzo
he beat his victims. I know he will burn in hell because you can't be God. What do you have to do in the state of Washington to get the death penalty?
- [58:36]
James Buddy Day
More than 20 years after his arrest, Gary Ridgway is still making headlines. In 2025, several Seattle news outlets, citing anonymous sources, reported that Ridgeway was receiving end of life care in prison. I asked Maria DiLorenzo what she'd been able to confirm, and she told me that Ridgeway suffered at least one stroke sometime before 2000 and currently lives in the prison infirmary.
- [59:04]
Maria DiLorenzo
He still is in the infirmary. He's been in there long term. I know he is incapable of walking. He's in a wheelchair. He's had issues with his heart. He's had some other issues.
- [59:21]
James Buddy Day
But Maria also cautions against the more dramatic reports. According to her, Ridgway's health has certainly declined, but reports that his death is imminent are exaggerated. Though physically frail, he remains mentally lucid. Even now, Gary Ridgway appears to understand the power of his own notoriety.
- [59:41]
Maria DiLorenzo
He claims he hates media, and I think that might be true. He doesn't like media. He won't really engage with media. But at the same time, he's very much aware of his notoriety. And I think that, like, feeds his ego and also just his position in it, that, like, he's turning everybody down. And look at the power. Right.
- [60:07]
James Buddy Day
And that brings me back to the book, the only thing that Gary Ridgeway ever sent me. What is the significance of this book?
- [60:16]
Maria DiLorenzo
He became a Seventh Day Adventist in prison. He, like, got, like, baptized, like, everything. Like, he really, you know, became a member of that church. And he. Why he Sends it to people? Is that why you're asking?
- [60:33]
James Buddy Day
Yeah, that. That's what I'm asking. So he's become a member of this church and I wrote him a letter.
- [60:37]
Gary Ridgeway
He.
- [60:38]
James Buddy Day
And he sent me this book. So is. Is the purpose of the book to convert people?
- [60:43]
Maria DiLorenzo
Is it's to spread the. Spread. Spread the word of God. Right. But he had told me that he had this like, typed letter that he would send out to people who wrote to him if like they were somewhat nice, you know, and he thought, oh, let me just like, give them something.
- [61:02]
James Buddy Day
I've spent this episode trying to understand Gary Ridgway and in the end, I'm not sure that this book tells us anything about redemption. I think it tells us something, something else, something about control. Even after 49 murder convictions, decades in prison, and countless interviews, Gary Ridgeway is still trying to shape the story that people are telling about him.
- [61:25]
Maria DiLorenzo
We would get into these conversations where, you know, like, I remember he had said to me once, you know, a leopard can change its spots, you know, and so he was of the opinion that like, deep down nobody really changes, you know, he felt though, because he was in prison and he's unable to hurt anybody anymore, he can't, you know, kill women anymore. Then therefore he's forgiven because he's not causing harm anymore.
- [61:57]
James Buddy Day
Before we wrap a few show notes, I talked about a lot of books in this episode. I would not recommend this one, but I would recommend Confessions of the Green River Killer, A true story of magic, manipulation, madness and a search for justice, written by Maria DiLorenzo. Available now where all books are sold. And if you like true crime from that gripping first person perspective of a journalist talking to a killer. Well, I have a treat for you because I've written a remarkably similar book. It's called Charles Manson the Last Words, Recorded conversations from his final years. It's available on Amazon, Kindle and Kindle Unlimited. If you're watching on YouTube. We've just opened our members portal and we encourage you to join, support the show, support the research and watch early ad free episodes. You can also find additional research on Unmarked Case Files, which is our Patreon where you can examine the evidence for yourself. This episode of Unmarked was produced by John Nadeau and edited by Dave Alderson. Our additional producer is Jesse Demaray. Until next week, this is Unmarked. What's up everybody? It's Bretzky and America is turning 250 and I can't think of a better way to celebrate that than playing on an American owned social casino. Spinquest.com with all of your favorite games. Live crabs, bubble craps, live blackjack. There's no better place to play for free and we win real cash prizes. Spinquest.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.
- [63:35]
Maria DiLorenzo
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James Buddy Day
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Maria DiLorenzo
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James Buddy Day
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