Midlife Divorce: The Facts, The Finances, and The Fallout with Jenny Hutt

Summary

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unPAUSED with Dr. Mary Claire Haver

Episode: "Midlife Divorce: The Facts, The Finances, and The Fallout"

Guest: Jenny Hutt | Date: December 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Mary Claire Haver sits down with Jennifer (Jenny) Hutt, a broadcaster, lawyer, and divorce mediator, for an unflinchingly honest conversation about the growing phenomenon of “gray divorce”—marital breakups in midlife and beyond. Drawing from her own personal journey and professional expertise, Jenny breaks down the emotional, legal, and financial realities facing women navigating divorce in midlife, especially during and after the transition of menopause. The discussion covers cultural shifts, economic impacts, legal protections, rebuilding identity, and why menopause can be both a challenge and a superpower.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Intersection of Menopause and Divorce

• The "Dry Vagina" Myth

  • Jenny recounts the oversimplification she’s heard:

    "The lawyer in your office had said, well, I think it's dry vagina that's causing these divorces. Which obviously is an oversimplification of larger issue." (Jennifer Hutt, 00:00)

  • Both agree that while physical symptoms are real, the core issue is often emotional and relational:

    “There can be a moment where a woman over 50 says, what the am I doing this for? When I don’t feel supported and I don’t feel loved and I don’t feel cared for enough and I don’t feel valued and I don’t feel cherished…” (Jennifer Hutt, 00:21).

• Cultural and Emotional Complexity

  • Divorce rates for those over 50—so-called "gray divorce"—have doubled since the 1990s, with women initiating the majority ([Dr. Haver referencing Census Bureau, 10:54]).
  • Menopause often triggers self-reflection and boundary-setting, which can either strengthen or end relationships.

    “There’s something about menopause that allows women to kind of circle the wagons and reevaluate and put up boundaries.” (Dr. Mary Claire Haver, 15:19)

• Loss and Reassessment

  • Past trauma and witnessing the loss of family members motivates women not to "waste" their remaining years in unsatisfying relationships.

    “My mom died at 65 years old. I’m 55. I’m not gonna spend my next 10 years being unhappy, right?” (Jennifer Hutt, 15:02)

2. Jenny Hutt’s Path from Broadcasting to Divorce Law

• Personal pain, including loss of parents and the end of her own marriage, inspired Jenny to pivot her career toward helping others through family law and mediation ([Jenny Hutt, 06:27-08:48]).

  “I wanted to turn pain into power and purpose...I could do even more good advocating for a specific person.” (Jennifer Hutt, 07:56)

• She emphasizes the importance of lived experience, especially understanding the nuances of long-term marriage and divorce for women.

3. Legal Aspects: Mediation vs. Litigation

• Mediation:
  • Mediators work for both parties to avoid court and facilitate fair settlements.
  • Works best when both partners are willing to compromise and communicate ([Jennifer Hutt, 09:29]).
• Litigation:
  • Each party retains their own lawyer to advocate for their best interests.
  • Jenny cautions:

    “If a lawyer is pushing you to go to trial—not the best lawyer.” (Jennifer Hutt, 09:29)

• Asset Division, Custody, Pets:
  • Marriage is framed as a "family business," with complex decisions about asset and custody division ([Jennifer Hutt, 09:29-10:30]).

4. Finances & Empowerment

• Preparation and Awareness
  • Many women are unaware of their household’s financial details.

    “What percentage of your clients don't know this information? I mean, many don’t. I will say that. And this is not their fault.” (Jennifer Hutt, 24:11)

  • Key documents to gather: tax returns, account balances, whose name is on what, details on insurance and property ([Jenny Hutt, 31:05]).
• Impact of Divorce on Women’s Finances
  • On average, women’s household income drops 41% after divorce, versus 23% for men ([Dr. Haver, 27:27]).
  • Dr. Haver’s clinical insight:

    “It was shocking to me how many of them were moving into...losing their homes, moving into tiny apartments, struggling to have to find a job for the first time in her adult life.” (Dr. Mary Claire Haver, 28:05)

• Financial Independence as Empowerment
  • Not just a hedge against being left, but a path to personal fulfillment and freedom.

    “When you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus.” (Jennifer Hutt, 29:16)

5. Best Practices Before and During Divorce

• “Don't burn down the house.” Decisions made in the heat of emotion rarely produce good outcomes ([Jennifer Hutt, 23:32]).
• Know your legal rights:
  • Marital property rights (state-dependent)
  • Entitlement to child support (e.g., to 21/22 in NY)
  • Rights to retirement accounts accumulated during marriage ([Jennifer Hutt, 24:14-25:00])
• Protecting Inheritance:
  • Inheritance or gifts must be kept in separate accounts to retain their legal protection ([Jennifer Hutt, 33:58-34:16]).
  • Postnuptial agreements can help protect assets if circumstances change.

6. Emotional Rebuilding & Identity After Gray Divorce

• Reclaiming self-identity after long marriages can feel “weird,” “jolting,” even “creepy” ([Jennifer Hutt, 40:47]).

• Community is crucial: forge new connections and allow others to help, even if your instinct is to hide ([Jennifer Hutt, 43:10-44:17]).

• There can be surprising joy and agency:

  “It’s really nice for women to. After years and years of cooking and cleaning...know if you want Oreos for dinner...you can have Oreos for dinner. And nobody’s gonna say anything.” (Jennifer Hutt, 46:01)

• On the other side of the pain, Jenny witnesses clients finding new peace, freedom, and happiness—even after difficult breakups.

7. Advice for Women Considering Divorce

• Three Top Things to Do:
  1. Obtain tax returns.
  2. Get a financial snapshot of all accounts.
  3. Know details on assets, debts, insurance, and kids’ accounts ([Jennifer Hutt, 31:05]).
• Maintain regular financial check-ins, even in happy marriages ([Dr. Haver and Jenny Hutt, 32:15-33:17]).
• Seek legal counsel: Most firms offer complimentary consultations and can clarify rights and procedures.

8. On Shame, Humor, and Hope

• Divorce still comes with stigma; isolation and shame are common responses, but community and vulnerability are essential to healing.
• Humor is a powerful coping tool:

  “If you can’t find the funny, then what’s the point of living?... Humor is a coping skill, and it changes your chemistry and your brain chemistry, like exercise, like moving. When we laugh, we feel better.” (Jennifer Hutt, 50:14)

• Every problem can be managed, even if it can’t be fixed:

  "There's always an option to be okay. You will be okay." (Jennifer Hutt, 51:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Menopause as Superpower:

  “Sometimes I think menopause and perimenopause are a superpower because the lessening of the estrogen sort of stops that people pleasing… you can just be without worry.” (Jennifer Hutt, 04:17)

• The Power of Compassion in Law Practice:

  “A little compassion goes a long way...These are people in the roughest time of their lives. If I could be there to make it, like, a tiny bit easier, I’m thrilled.” (Jennifer Hutt, 20:51)

• On Shame and Healing:

  “You can’t let shame get in the way of your healing...Put one foot in front of the other. I always give the advice, just wake up in the morning, get through the day and go to sleep at night...It does happen.” (Jennifer Hutt, 43:10-44:17)

• On Financial Independence:

  “When you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus. Then it’s not a dependency because you’re afraid.” (Jennifer Hutt, 29:16)

• Managing the Emotional Toll:

  “Divorce is highly emotionally charged, and when decisions are made based on emotion, rarely is it really the right outcome.” (Jennifer Hutt, 23:32)

• On Advice and Community:

  “You’re not alone. I promise you, the thing that you’re going through, that you think it’s only you… someone else has gone through it too. And there’s again, beauty in that. Cause it’s community.” (Jennifer Hutt, 51:53)

• Finding Freedom Post-Divorce:

  “I do what I want, when I want, how I want, I wear what I want, I don’t care and I freaking love it.” (Dr. Mary Claire Haver, 46:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• The “Dry Vagina” Oversimplification – 00:00–00:51
• Introduction and Mutual Career Reflections – 02:57–05:07
• Jenny’s Journey to Family Law & Mediation – 06:26–08:48
• Gray Divorce: Legal and Emotional Landscape – 10:53–15:19
• Culture, Loss, and Motivations for Divorce – 15:19–16:48
• Menopause as Superpower, Shifts in Communication – 04:17–05:07, 21:00–22:00
• Steps to Take Before and During Divorce – 23:16–27:13, 31:05–31:26
• Financial Impact of Divorce – 27:13–29:16
• Inheritance & Asset Protection – 33:57–34:16, 38:41–40:25
• Rebuilding Identity & Navigating Loneliness – 40:38–44:17
• Advice to Those Considering Divorce – 47:53–48:46
• Marriage Counseling: Help or Hinderance? – 48:49–49:29
• Humor in Healing and Hardship – 50:05–51:33
• Parting Wisdom: There’s Always a Way Through – 51:53–53:09

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Jenny Hutt:
  • Instagram: @justjennyhut
  • TikTok: @ennyhutt
  • Legal consultation: jennylawjaw.com
• Dr. Mary Claire Haver:
  • Instagram: @drmaryclaire
  • Website: thepauselife.com
  • Upcoming Book: The New Perimenopause (available for pre-order)

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Tone & Style

Engaging, empathetic, direct, and empowering—Dr. Haver and Jenny Hutt don’t shy away from tough topics. Their combination of humor, candor, and practical advice provides validation and actionable insights for women navigating one of life’s biggest transitions.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking practical understanding, validation, and empowerment—whether you’re contemplating divorce, supporting a friend, or reimagining your second half of life.

Transcript

[Jennifer Hutt]

The lawyer in your office had said, well, I think it's dry vagina that's causing these divorces. Which obviously is an oversimplification of larger issue. I mean, issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change when they're battling the dry vagina, or any of these symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. And I do think there's truth to that, that there can be a moment where A woman over 50 says, what the am I doing this for? When I don't feel supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished and I feel like I've been doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing for everybody else. Why? Why doesn't he care about me?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

The views and opinions express rest on unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. When I first started putting myself out there, before my books, before this podcast, one of the very first interviews I ever did was with Jennifer Hutt on her Sirius XM radio call in show, Just Jenny. I was so nervous, I had to call it the exact right minute because it was live and I was pacing back and forth in my bathroom trying not to forget my own name. But Jenny made me feel calm and seen. She listened as I told her what I believe doctors weren't telling women about menopause. She gave me a voice when I was just starting out. And I'll never forget that over the years I've been a guest on her show and I've watched her evolve, always staying curious and honest about life, from grieving the loss of a parent to transforming herself through healthy eating and exercise. And she's not afraid to tackle the messy stuff. Now she's returning to her roots as a lawyer specializing in family law and divorce mediation. And I wanted to have this conversation with her because every time I talk about menopause and divorce online, the response is overwhelming. Half of the women say menopause made them see their lives more clearly, that they realized what and who no longer fit others feel guilt like they've changed and their partners couldn't adapt. It's complex, emotional, and frankly, controversial. So today we're digging in with someone who understands both the emotional and legal sides of it. My friend and one of my earliest champions, Jennifer Hutt. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to Unpaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Welcome to the podcast.

[Jennifer Hutt]

First of all, that intro made me start to tear up. So you're really good at this.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I'm so appreciative. Like I'm telling you, I can remember getting the call. Would you want to do this? Yes.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yes. I didn't have any idea what to expect. I'd never done a live call in radio show. I, you know, and I just, I remember distinctly pacing back and forth in my bathroom on the phone with you the whole time and watching the minutes tick off and you just kept the conversation floating.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Nobody would have known.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Kept me engaged. And then it was over.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And you had to jump on to the next thing. And I was like, okay, bye.

[Jennifer Hutt]

You were perfect and flawless. And it kind of tracks with the who that you are. But nobody would have known. It was your first appearance. You were just, you were just easy and you're so smart and you really know your stuff and you really care. And I think that came through. And to your credit, I think that's why people are so drawn to you, because it's not just your medical expertise, but it's the way you deliver it in such an honest, open, accessible manner. I mean, that's what women need.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

People ask me, how did you develop this? How did this start? And I really think my superpower is being able to take complex medical information and take it down to the level of the listener wherever she's at, you know, And I just did what I was doing with my patients one on one and just started talking to my phone and then the world just exploded.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I love that you use superpower because that's one of the things that keeps coming into my mind when I think about the menopause conversation or my shifting work life conversations is tapping into my superpower. And sometimes I think menopause and perimenopause are a superpower because the lessening of the estrogen sort of stops that people pleasing and then can just be without worry because you don't have that coating of estrogen telling you to like, calm down, be gentle, be kind or whatever. When you don't, when you don't need to be. But the other superpower is communication. I've always been a great communicator and been able to sort of distill down what's going on with people to get through the emotion to the stuff that really matters. So there's sort of a similarity, even though you're a doctor and I'm definitely not.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So walk me through this career path because you've had multiple twists and turns. So first of all, where'd you grow up? What's your backstory?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Oh boy. I grew up in a two parent home in New York, in Long island specifically. I went to college, I went to law school, I went to then like an acting school. I got married, I passed the bar, I had kids. And initially I was home for a few years and I did like some part time legal work. Like I worked a little bit, but I was mostly focused on my children. And I think there are many women who have this sort of happen where there's that feeling that we want to do more. And I had that feeling that I wanted to do more. So it was a little bit of law. And then I fell into broadcasting by way of being a personal assistant. It's a whole long story, but I ended up in this radio show on Sirius xm, my first radio show with my ex co host, who's Alexis Stewart, Martha's daughter. And I did that for five and a half years and then we had like three TV shows and this whole thing after that ended, I started my own radio show which was just Jenny still on Sirius xm. And I, I pretty much had close to two decades of broadcasting now all the while kept my law license active. I would do some legal commentary on television and like little bits of legal work. Whether I did a closing or I helped somebody sort of personally with a legal issue or a legal problem because I kept my license going.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

And then I had an incredibly bumpy few years, I mean the kind of bumpy few years that I wish on nobody. So in, in 2008 I lost my mom.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

And then after the pandemic hit, my dad got sick. And right before my father passed away, my Sirius XM show ended. So my SiriusXM show ended. I launched a podcast three days later. My father died about a week later, which we all lived together. So like a very sort of enmeshed, involved, super close, tight knit family. And then my marriage imploded. I mean this all happened within I think 18 months. And out of that I just in a way had this epiphany that I wanted to do more. And I wanted to turn pain into power and purpose. And I kept thinking, I want to be practicing law, I want to do more, I want to help people. And I didn't even really understand what that meant in initially. And I had first sort of danced around this idea of becoming a mediator. I was like, okay, I'll mediate divorces. That's great. I have insight. I'm going through this. I'm in this horrible place. My sister in law, my brother's wife Amy, said to me, why aren't you a divorce lawyer? And I said, I just hadn't thought about it. And she said, you would be the best divorce lawyer there could possibly be. Because my history of speaking to women for decades on the air and hearing everybody's stories and really not just understanding it from the lens of a broadcaster or a host or personality, but when your world is shattered essentially due to however it happens, she said, you would just, this is just so the place for you. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna think about this. And then I met with my friend Jackie Harunian, who I work with, and she said to me, you need to be a divorce lawyer. It was just really crazy. It was sort of a almost kind of kismet thing. And they really knew better than I did that this was gonna be exactly the right fit. And I think I was terrified. So I did this mediation course and I became a mediator. And then I just wanted to be the lawyer. I felt like I could do even more good advocating for a specific person. And while I do have women and men clients, I really, I have a soft spot for women.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

For the women. Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I mean, I have some male clients and I can help them. Of course I can effectively advocate as I need to, but I really, I really understand the complexities of being a woman and being in really any length of a marriage, but especially a long term marriage. And this whole concept of the gray divorce that I know that you know about, it's a very jarring, jolting, strange thing to happen. And it's nuanced. It's, it's a lot more than just sort of the end or the change of a marriage for our listeners.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Can you explain the difference between mediation and what's the mediation part of this? What is the legal, what is the lawyer part of this?

[Jennifer Hutt]

So a mediator doesn't have to be a lawyer. What a mediator does is a mediator works with the couple to guide the couple to a settlement. So it keeps the couple out of court, which by the way, lawyers should be keeping couples out of court who are getting divorced and rare cases. Do divorces really need to go to trial? It's 90% of the time. You should not be going to trial in a divorce. And if a lawyer is pushing you to go to trial. Not the best lawyer. Mediation. The couple has to be amicable enough that they're both willing to compromise and come to an agreement about division of assets and custody and the unraveling of this marriage, which is, as you know, a marriage is more than just a husband and a wife or a wife and a wife or a husband and a husband. A marriage is a family business in a way, especially when there are children. So you're dealing with division of assets, with custody issues, with pets, which now in certain states, like New York, pets are treated almost like children.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Almost.

[Jennifer Hutt]

We're not. But we're getting closer.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

There's recent legislation. They're a little higher level now than chattel, than property. But the mediator works on behalf of both spouses equally. It's not one over the other. Whereas with a lawyer, you each have your own lawyer to represent you and advocate for you. And what should be the outcome for you?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Let's talk about what's happening culturally.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Divorce rates for people, and I've hold these statistics. Over 50 have doubled since the 1990s, according to the United States Census Bureau's 2024 report, Marriage and Divorce Trends. Women are initiating the majority of them.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

According to a 2023American Sociological association report. Why do you think that is? I feel like I'm on the front lines.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I am. And I have to tell you, you had done an Instagram post, and you got a lot of flack for this post. And I read it, and I understood what you were saying.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I had a divorce attorney who came to my office, and I posted it twice, two years apart, and I got the exact same reaction both times. And in preparation for this podcast, I wanted to repost it to see if. If we would get the same kind of ire. And of course we did. It went viral and there were very much two camps.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So it was a divorce attorney. And in her opinion, you know, she does a lot of gray divorce. Mostly gray divorce, and mostly does the female side. Cause she's also female, and we tend to gravitate towards our gender. She was talking about how she felt like menopause, especially the genital urinary syndrome of menopause, and this untreated. What she called untreated menopause. Was contributing to a significant amount of the divorces that she was helping to mitigate. I just found that fascinating and I shared her story on social media. And the backlash is incredible.

[Jennifer Hutt]

It's wild to see. I mean, people were furious because they were over. I can say words like vagina and dryness.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh yeah, right.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah, that's okay. Okay. So basically the lawyer in your office had said, well, I think it's dry vagina that's causing these divorces. Which obviously is an oversimplification of larger issue. I mean issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change when they're battling the dry vagina or any of these symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. And I do think there's truth and to that, that there can be a moment where A woman over 50 says, what the am I doing this for? When I don't feel supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished and I feel like I've been doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing for everybody else. Why, why doesn't he care about me? It's a lack of sort of that support being at one's wits end rather than it being about her inability to have sex because of the dry vagina. That's where the sort of oversimplification is. And I think as there are women when they are financially stable and able and realizing that they don't need to rely on this man for that kind of support and they've had it and they're just saying, I'm done. I don't want to live like this anymore. I have a certain number of years left and I want to be happy in those years. And I understand that that's not my story and I don't really get into my story. Cause I have adult children and it's not just my story to tell. And my soon to be ex husband, he is still my family. And so I'm very mindful of my own story being that sort of private. But for some women, they really have gotten to that point where they have felt devalued and I have clients even younger that feel that way, that feel like they've been controlled, their husbands have kept financial information from them and these ones are not financially secure and yet they still want out because they, they don't think they've been treated with respect and they've gotten to a point where it's enough. And they don't want that to be the example for their children that this is how somebody should live and be treated, because it's. It's not okay. So it's definitely complicated. I think. Great. Divorce is complicated. And you and I have shared offline. I don't know if we talked about on my shows or not, but you've gone through trauma and loss in your own family and seen people die too young, as have I. And I think there's something about that, too. My mom died at 65 years old. I'm 55. I'm not gonna spend my next 10 years being unhappy, right? No. And God willing, I get to have 30 more years or 40 more years. But if I get my mother's lifespan, why would I waste the next 10 if things aren't right? I think there's that aspect for many of these women.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I agree in reading those comments. There's something about menopause that allows women to kind of circle the wagons and reevaluate and put up boundaries. And for some couples, menopause brings them closer and, you know, they go all in. And she's really able to focus on herself and realize, this is the partner that I want for the rest of my life.

[Jennifer Hutt]

And that's beautiful.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that's great, you know. And that's actually me.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So, you know, I'm in.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I'm a lifer, and I love that. And I am pro marriage. And sometimes, unfortunately, even lifers have. I didn't expect to be here. This wasn't my plan. And then my plan kind of socked me in the head, and so I had a pivot. And I think there's that, too, for women, that we need to find a way when bad things happen or when things go don't go the way that we anticipated and believed that they would, that we're still okay. That even if we have to rebuild and restructure and figure it all out at a time that we didn't anticipate having to do, so we're gonna be okay. And there's no scarlet letter. And there should be no shame. I mean, there is way too much shame. And that's the whole identity conversation I think we'll get into. But stuff happens. And what is a woman supposed to do? Lie down and cry and crumble and not survive? No, we have to get up and kick ass. And I don't mean kick ass and blow up the world and cause trouble. No, I mean kick ass. So we are okay, whatever that means for each of us.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

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[Podcast Announcer]

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[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

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[Podcast Announcer]

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[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Your content has changed a little bit as I follow you, and you're talking a little more about divorce.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah. So I have changed my content a little bit because I want people to know that this is what I'm doing now and I want to help them. I am so excited every morning that I get to work with people and I get to make a difference and add value to their lives. It is the coolest feeling in such a tangible way. Not that broadcast wasn't doing that, but this feels different. I love that I can be available to my clients, that they can text me night and day. Like, that's one of the beautiful things about living alone with four dogs, 24 hours a day. You can get me. I am happy to help. I don't sleep all that much. Cause I'm perimenopausal. So you wanna text me, call me, email me, I'm right there, ready to go. I don't drink. I'm always sober. I got you. Like, I love it. And I really see the impact a little compassion has.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I mean, these are people in the roughest time of their lives. If I could be there to make it, like, a tiny bit easier, I'm thrilled.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Do you see perimenopause and menopause, like, being a part of this realization or what they're going through?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah. Well, where I see that is, is I think you've been so instrumental in changing the conversation. We're not all freaks. We're not. There's nothing wrong with us. It's biology. And also there's ways to manage it so that we don't have to suffer extra. Right. Like, it's bad enough what I explain.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

To patients, that the mental health part, or the loss of resilience or why does my husband chew so loud? Which is happening in my house. I've eaten meals next to him for 30 years.

[Jennifer Hutt]

And now you have misophonia.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Oh, my God. And I'm like, okay, this is a predictable response to the hormone changes going on in my body. Like, this is not him trying to torture me. This is a predictable response to what is happening in my body.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah. It's so important that you share that, because I think women are not so aware of those things. I have always understood my cycle. And I know, like, day five of my period, the sky is falling, everything is cloudy. It's as if I have fallen into a depression for 36 hours. And then it's over. Then the clouds lift, the sky is blue, and I'm fine again, and I know it like clockwork. So every time it happens, I can take a beat and say, oh, you feel like you want to die because of where your hormones are. It's going to pass. And then it does. But if I didn't know that, and many women don't, we need you. We need you to say to us, by the way, you're going to feel like this. You may feel like that. It's okay. That extra anxiety is. It's actually normal in perimenopause and menopause, and here's what we do about it. Like, that's when you started with the Galveston Diet. From the very beginning, you were focusing on what would help our brains feel better when the estrogen levels change. But as I go back to the beginning, it still feels a bit like a superpower because there is that idag thing that, like, I don't give a. And that. That's beautiful for someone like me who is, like, always making sure that people pleaser. Oh, yeah, please. Like, please like me. Now I'm like, no. Now I'm like, just do right by me or do right by my clients or do right by my family. That's it. I don't care if you like me anymore. Not my problem.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I think that's a superpower of menopause. Your clients come in, and mostly women, I'm guessing. And what do you wish they knew before it's too late? So they're coming in. I think I want to get a divorce. How do you counsel them?

[Jennifer Hutt]

First and foremost, don't burn down the house. Just don't. Divorce is highly emotionally charged, and when decisions are made based on emotion, rarely is it really the right outcome. So everyone needs to take a beat and really look at the full picture of what's going on and what you want to achieve, what kind of outcome you're looking for. What I wish they knew. I mean, there's stuff you can do while you're married, happily married. Like, know your financial state, know what debt the two of you have together, what debt you each have independently, who owns the house, how much is the mortgage, what kind of retirement accounts are there?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Okay, take a beat.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

What percentage of your clients don't know this information?

[Jennifer Hutt]

I mean, many don't. I will say that. And this is not their fault. So please understand. I do not in any way blame the women. I actually think in a healthy marriage, where one partner stays home and. And the other partner is working outside of the house. They both are equally valuable to the partnership. And it's because the one who's home with the kids is home with the kids, that the other one can be working, bringing in the money to support the family. They're both needed for that ecosystem. And if a spouse chooses to not share with the other spouse financial information or access to bank accounts, then that's not a real partnership and that's not okay. And often women don't realize that it's not okay because nobody's told them. They've sort of put their trust into something and then they weren't really treated fairly. Now, the good news is, depending on your state, and the state of New York is an equitable distribution state, the monies that are accumulated during the marriage, even if it's just the husband's salary, that's marital property. So you're entitled to half of that equitable distribution, which in many cases is half of that marital property, in the absence of a prenuptial agreement that might say otherwise or a post nuptial agreement. And I think California is even a bigger split. So it's very important to know that you have rights. I want women to know their rights. And most law firms, or many law firms will offer complimentary consultations. We do. I mean, I will talk to anybody for an hour, happily. Because just to let you know what you're entitled to under the eyes of the law. Which is why I say, like, these cases really shouldn't go to court unless there's an actual substance abuse, stealing, reckless behavior, abuse, physical or mental. There are cases where it should go to court, but when it's just about dividing assets and fair custody or shared parenting, then a settlement should be able to be had. Cause it should be based on the law. Because if you go to court, a judge is going to make the decisions for you. It's better that you're going to make the compromise yourself than having someone decide the compromises for you. If you're listening or watching and you are thinking about divorce, not even. It's just good to know what's what. It's good to know that in New York State, your partner, the breadwinner, the person who has the more money, or if he's, if you are the custodial parent, they're going to give you child support for the child up to the age of 21 in New York and sometimes 22 if the kid is in college, you can decide to do that. That's the law. So getting to those numbers. There's all these calculations and apps that do it for the lawyers because most of us aren't very good at math. But it's good to know these things. What you are legally entitled to. And retirement accounts. If that retirement account has grown throughout the marriage, you are entitled the monies that were added to it from marital money. You're entitled to your share of that. Yeah. There's a lot of things that are.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Worth knowing because the statistics around this are pretty scary. The financial impact. So, again, I was googling statistics.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

After divorce, a woman's household income drops by 41% on average.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Compared with 23% for men. And that was in 2023.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Depends on who their lawyer is.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Well, I saw this in clinic all the time. So I would, you know, I'd been taking care of this woman, delivered her babies, and then she'd come in and ask for STD testing when there was infidelity.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I'm sorry.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

She come in devastated, you know, shuffled in in like a hoodie. And, you know, usually this over the top, glamorous woman, she's just devastated and so embarrassed.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

To have to come in and say, I need STD testing. My partner wasn't faithful. Not all divorces end because of infrared or she had had an encounter, you.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Know, for whatever reason.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So I'm going through, and then, you know, we get into the discussion, and it was shocking to me how many of them were moving into. Losing their homes, moving into tiny apartments, struggling to have to find a job for the first time in her adult life. You know, we live in the Deep south, and a lot of these women had partnered right after college and, you know, worked a year or two and then chose to stay home. And then all of a sudden are faced with this, you know, inevitability of she is financially way worse off and she doesn't have a skill set that she can market right away, you know, to get a job.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Scary.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So my aunts went through something really similar. My parents stayed married until death.

[Jennifer Hutt]

And.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that was great. And then. But my. I watched some of my aunts, like, have to move into government housing after divorces and their kids.

[Jennifer Hutt]

That.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

That stays with you. And so I've always told my girls.

[Jennifer Hutt]

You know, be financially independent.

[Podcast Announcer]

That.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah, always. Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, there's never, never, never not.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Been a discussion in our house.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, you must be able to raise the kids alone that you bring into this world if your husband's there. That's great. And that's wonderful and amazing. But you need to be prepared to do this on your own if you have to. I mean it sounds so cold and terrible, but I think that's the reality.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I choose to look at it differently though. Not about that you need to do it because a man might up and leave and you're high and dry. So you better be able to take care of yourself. I mean that, that is reality. But I look at the empowering side of it that when you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus. Then it's not a dependency because you're afraid. Then it's not a fear based decision to be married or to stay when you're not happy. I like the idea of being independent and having something that matters to you beyond the family and the children. And I say that as a mother whose kids are everything. I mean my whole life is about my children. I'll work till I'm 95 so I can keep doling out as needed to my kids so they can have whatever they want that they can't afford on their own. Like that's my kids are my kids are my reason for being. I mean whether that's right or that's wrong. But having a job and a career and all different ones throughout the years is so fulfilling and it keeps my mind going. There's other benefits beyond the financial wins of working. I'm giddy when I get up in the morning now. I feel so purpose driven and good inside, like I'm making a difference and there's so much value in that. There's that thing that when you're feeling bad about something, do something for someone else and it really works, it really helps. It takes you right out of your own ish. It makes you feel better. So maybe it's selfish, but I really like the feeling of knowing that I'm making a difference for somebody else, that I'm making their life a little bit better. I'm all for working and contributing to society. I think it's whether you need to financially or you don't.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So if someone is thinking about divorce, give me the three top things that she should be doing right.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Tax return. She needs to get a hold of all the tax returns. She needs to see whose name is on what. She needs to get snapshot of the balances of all the accounts. She needs to check things like the kids accounts, if there are kids. Are there college accounts? How is that being provided for? Is there life insurance? What kind of health insurance?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I mean, shouldn't we all Be doing this.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes. If I knew then what I know now. It's always that sort of hindsight is. By the way, hindsight is 20 20. I look at the black box mornings, being removed on the hormone therapy now and the whole like 10 years before menopause. And I'm saying to myself, okay, I still get my period at 55 years old. I'm gonna be 56 and I'm still getting my period. Is it too late? Cause it's gonna end. It's gotta end. It's gonna end soon.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're fine.

[Jennifer Hutt]

But I've been left. Cause it's the hindsight. Like, if I knew them what I know now, If I knew 10 years ago that I should start hormone therapy at the onset of. Nobody knew.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

So it's that kind of thing. Like we. We don't know, but now we do. So if you're listening, just get a clear picture of what's going on at home. Not whether your husband's doing something wrong or you're doing something wrong. Just like a full picture of your finances. And honestly, how much is your mortgage? There are many clients that don't even know how much the mortgage is on their home.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I remember having seeing a conversation like ours on, like Oprah.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Years ago. And I had little kids and I got out of residency, went right into practice. And my husband is an engineer and just took over all the bills and everything. I cannot have told you. Yeah. What my salary was. Like, I had no idea.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Wow.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Like, I just like shopped at Target and went to the grocery store and didn't spend any other money and all the bills were paid and I was fine. Then I see this special on Oprah with these women who were absolutely blindsided by divorce.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And financially destitute. And so I sat my husband down and was like, I didn't say if you leave me, but I said something might happen to you. And I'm clueless. So we have since then sit down on a regular basis and kind of go through all the basics. And then we live in a hurricane prone area. So we have a box that I have to take if we evacuate with all of the important things. That includes all that financial information. So I think a lot of partners in relationships kind of leave the financial end to one half. And that's probably a mistake.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I think that what you did and continue to do is really.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I did have to rustle it from him a little bit.

[Jennifer Hutt]

He's like, what?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Am I doing something wrong?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Because that's where they derive their Power. Sometimes they feel it's. I get it. I'm the provider. Why do I have to. What, are you checking up on me? But I think there is real value in having the dialogue and at least knowing the username and passwords and being able to assess what's what in the event that you'll need it. Now, hopefully you won't ever need it, but. And I also think for women, that you should have a little bit of money of your own somehow socked away. Oh, here's something important in New York, and, I don't know, across the rest of the country, but inheritance. If you're going to get an inheritance.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

That was my next question.

[Jennifer Hutt]

That is separate property, unless you commingle it. So if you are given an inheritance and then you put that in a joint bank account, that becomes marital. Okay. You have to keep those gifts separate.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So are you still doing family law, too?

[Jennifer Hutt]

So all of it. Let's.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Let's get into that, because so many of us at this age, and it is increasing the stress in our lives and maybe contributing to some of the turmoil around, you know, ending relationships is this aging parents and elder care.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Again, not really speaking about my own marriage too much, but I know that sort of all the tough stuff that we had to go through at once was just too much for us to bear. And that really impacted the state of our marriage. The loss of parents, a change to our finances. There was a lot at once that had happened. And then, as you know, that my daughter had a health crisis. She's thankfully. You know, I knock on everything because nothing else really matters. Being in the sandwich generation is tough. It's tough. You're watching your parents struggle. There's loss. I mean, my sister and I and my brother, I'll say the three of us are incredibly close, and that's a gift. My parents did that really. Right. But I'm watching my friends now all lose their parents. And I don't wish it on anybody, but I say to my sister all the time, like, at least we're done with that. Like, at least that part is done now. I miss my parents every freaking day. Like, my mother, if she saw me now, would be over the moon. I mean, she'd feel terrible about the marriage stuff, but if she could see my kids and see me getting up every day and putting on a suit, she'd be tickled. Like, she'd just. She'd just love the whole thing. I feel like at least that's done because it was so hard. I took care of both My parents, My sister and I took care of our parents, both of them. And it's not for the faint of heart, as you know, because you're a doctor. I know more medical stuff than I should for not being a doctor. And that's what I had to. You know, that's what I. I was with both my parents when they died, leading up to when they died calling, you know, doing all the things, and it's just awful. And it takes a toll because you go back to the dry vagina, like, who wants to be frisky when they're, like, changing a parent's diaper? Essentially, what this is a. It's a total. You know, it messes with every ounce of you. It's hard to feel good when there's so much trauma swirling around you.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

What I'm finding is there's not hard conversations happening with, how is this gonna go down? What do you want, mom and dad? What do you expect of me? And then one partner's being pulled to do X and Y, and it's always an emergency and last minute to go put out fires for the parents and the kid, you know? And so I think knowing we're going into sandwich generations is having those conversations and really having the tough conversations with your partner and with your parents. What do you want? How do you want this to happen?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Sometimes parents don't want to do that. I think the generation in front of us, like, before, we're still engaged, right? Yeah, so.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So we're Gen X. Yeah. So our parents are boomers, basically.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Right. And they did not want those conversations. They might. Neither of my parents, I mean, my mother had pancreatic cancer that kind of came in like a. Like a wrecking ball. And that my father was wholly unprepared to die because he just didn't think it would happen. It was like he just didn't want to deal with it. Our generation. And you know this, and you know this from your training also, like, they didn't deal with mental health. They didn't. Our parents. My parents cared that I was breathing beyond that. I didn't really matter.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Like, if I wasn't pregnant or in jail. My parents were like, correct.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Okay, they're in. Right? That's right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I didn't care if I went to college or where I went or what my grades were, if I went to medical school. I didn't pay for any of that.

[Jennifer Hutt]

It wasn't. That wasn't what mattered to them. They weren't checking in on what was going on up here or in Our hearts. Right. Not in trouble and alive. Like my parents wanted me alive. So it's a whole different kind of. That's how they were, how they were wired. And then we come out and now we're like dealing with that because there's so many feelings that now. Because you can't suppress feelings no matter how hard you try. And then the next generation, it's like, we're like, are you okay? Are you okay in this way and that way and all the ways. And it's just a different animal. But I think those conversations are really important to have.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So is the inheritance this ruled state to state or is it state to state? Okay, yeah. Because we are about to undergo. We are undergoing the biggest transfer of wealth and the history of the world to women as we're surviving longer. And you're inheriting it from your parents or from your spouse. Now, from a philanthropic end, I think it's going to do wonders for how we fund research and women's health and all that. So I'm super excited about it. But I want to talk about protection. So she inherits money from her parents, right?

[Jennifer Hutt]

She inherits it. So she needs to keep that in a separate bank account.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

What is a trust?

[Jennifer Hutt]

So a trust is something else that's also a way to protect it. So if you have a trust and it's just your name and there's rules in the trust, the trusts are very hard to break and those are on a case by case basis and they're very specific. And you go to a trust expert to do that. I'm not a trust expert, but I can tell you from a legal standpoint in New York, and yes, it is state to state and you should check out your state's laws and there are ways to do this. And don't rely on ChatGPT. Okay? Do not. Because it's not always accurate and people get in trouble thinking that it is. Speak to a lawyer. But if you do get a gift of money or an inheritance, you keep it separate. In the absence of a trust, you keep it separate in a separate bank account. Because if you mix it, it is no longer separate. That's. It's the mixing. You cannot mix it. So it's okay to set that boundary with your partner. Also. That's why prenups can be a good idea and even postnuptial agreements. I had a client recently. I had a client recently who, it's a similar kind of story, had gotten an inheritance and her father is still alive. He gave her a gift and he Said, I'm giving you this gift under the condition that you get a postnuptial agreement, that this gift is protected so that in the event you get divorced, this gift will not go to your spouse. And so we wrote up a postductual agreement which just says, this has changed within the marriage. This is what our financial status is now, and this is how the assets would be divided. Should we get divorced or should we separate? Yeah. It's fascinating. It's not divorced, and it's not a prenup. It's after the marriage. Post note.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I didn't even know those existed.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How common are they?

[Jennifer Hutt]

They're pretty common now when there's a change. When there's a big financial change.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Okay, that makes sense. So let's move on to rebuilding. Moving on. She's gone through the divorce.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yes.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How do you see women rebuilding their identity, especially if they were in long marriages? So simply, the gray divorce is after the kids are raised.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah. When I got separated, it took me probably a year to feel like I could say the word separated and. Or that I was separated and that. And it took me a year, maybe more, to feel like I could even be out and about. I felt so strange. I was so used to my husband, my husband, my husband. So standing on my own two feet, sort of spiritually felt very weird and jolting and frankly, creepy. I didn't understand it. Like, my brain couldn't because that was not my place plan.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How long was your marriage?

[Jennifer Hutt]

God, 26 years, 27 years. I'm still technically married because I'm not yet divorced. But then I realized that, again, I have this one life, and I found community on my terms, how I want to live. And I think community is really important. Finding people with whom you feel good, whether they're married, whether they're not, whether you want to date or you don't. Just finding your peace and your happiness and your people. And some might be the people you've always had in your life, and some might not, and that's okay.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

We've lost some couples to divorce in our friend group. You know, we all raise kids together.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And I think it's a very common story, and a lot of our listeners will identify with this. And our priorities are changing. The kids are grown. They've all gone off to college. And I love these people. We still see them from time to time, but our lives are different. My job is different. My travel schedule's different, you know, and our kids are no longer forcing us to.

[Jennifer Hutt]

That's right.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, football games and basketball games and prom and all those things aren't making us, you know, have a connection. It's sad, but it's also kind of fun.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Oh, I felt a relief when I didn't have to go to the games and the parties. And that's like, well, college parties were fun.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Your kids are a little older than mine. We've got one left in college and I'm going to mourn a little bit, not going to the big SEC football games.

[Jennifer Hutt]

So you're more fun than I am.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Having two kids that went to SEC was super fun. I have to say for parent weekends.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I will say that women who go through gray divorce and women, whether they wanted the divorce or they didn't want the divorce, it's always hard and it's always a bit of a death because it's a loss. It's a loss of what you thought would be regardless of reason. And women and you know this tend to isolate when they feel shame or. And I had that, that feeling of like, you know, when you think about a cat or a dog that goes to die in a corner. I just wanted to hide and I didn't want to let the people who love me love me. And I didn't want to let the people who wanted so much to care for me care for me until I realized I was only hurting myself more. And you got to let people take care of you and help you and love you when you need them to, even if you don't always recognize that you need them to. You can't let shame get in the way of your healing. I think that's what it is. Because if you get stuck in that shame spiral, then you're just going to stay there. You have to be sad, be scared, be vulnerable, and like, do all the things anyway. Put one foot in front of the other. I always give the advice, just wake up in the morning, get through the day and go to sleep at night. Start that. Start with just like the goal of getting through the day and little by little you'll start to heal. It does happen. I mean, time is sort of the best tincture. Like time will get you there, but it's incredibly, it can be incredibly isolating and incredibly painful.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Do you see your clients lives though, do change for the better? Yes.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I will say in my own case, like, I have the greatest group of friends, for the most part, the same friends I always did. The couples, the wives. I have my people and my girls and I am so lucky. And my siblings and my kids. I Mean my kids are just my kids. But yes, my clients, I see this shift along the way where at first things are really bad and it's a lot of it's gonna be okay cause I know it is. And sort of making sure that they are really figuring out what it's is that they need and being motivated by actual things that matter and not anger. Because that whole thing you see on TV like I'm gonna kill him or I'm gonna this or I'm gonna.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, it's always this very over dramatized, not real life, you know, and it's you know, woman who's hysterical and you.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Know the trope, there's times of the.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Angry middle aged woman.

[Jennifer Hutt]

There are angry men too. Like I've dealt, I have dealt with both the women who are feel like they've been wronged and the men who feel like they've been wronged. And you know, there's always his, hers and then the truth. Like everybody has a side and that's where you figure out the compromise. But as I said before, like you can't lead with emotion, you have to lead with clear thinking. And so I sort of help them there. But after the hysteria, a few months in there does sort of set in this common understanding that you will get through this. And the other side of it is really peaceful. Like it's really nice for women to. After years and years of cooking and cleaning and sort of living on a schedule dictated by everybody else to know if you want Oreos for dinner. I know it's not on your plan, but if you want Oreos for dinner, that you can have Oreos for dinner. And nobody's gonna say anything.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Girl dinner.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah, girl dinner. And if you wanna exercise at 8 o' clock at night, nobody's gonna complain that you're not in the bed yet watching a movie. Like there's something really freeing.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I see that with my patients. This incredible, incredible piece around building the life just built for them. They've never done it in 25 years, ever. And they're like, I do what I want, when I want, how I want, I wear what I want, I don't care and I freaking love it.

[Jennifer Hutt]

It's amazing. And because we're at the point where for the most part we've done the things we've had, the children, we've had that life, that there's no desperation to mate. There might be a want to have companionship or to date or to have sex or not or whatever, but there's not that thing that we had in our 20s, like, oh, I gotta get married. I gotta make babies. I gotta do that thing which is biological. I mean, we have to do that. We're to, you know, it's our species, it matters. But, like, now, if it's not gonna be great, I don't want it. I don't wanna go out with somebody who's, you know, mid.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah. Awesome. So you spent two decades, you know, having conversations.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Best trainer I could have had.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah. I mean, do you feel that really set you up for success?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Totally. Yes. Because I've heard every story. I've learned that really valuable lesson that we are pretty much all the same. We all feel pain. Sadly, that impacts us often more than joy. And it should be the other way around. We are different characters, different stories. But at the end of the day, the human condition is what it is. So there's something incredibly freeing about seeing that. And also, like, as bad as you feel and you think it's just you, it's usually not. That's the other thing. Like, we feel weird, we feel shame, we feel like losers. So does everybody else. Which then means, like, none of us really should feel any of that.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

So a lot of women will stay in an unhappy marriage, unsatisfying marriage, because they're scared. What would you say to her?

[Jennifer Hutt]

As I said before, I'm pro marriage and pro love. And I do say to my clients, are you sure this is what you want to do? I don't push anybody into divorce because divorce is hard and it's a big shift and a big change. And I would rather, theoretically, till death do you part. I do come from that model. But if it's not right, it's not right. And there are steps that you could take to get out. There are remedies in. Again, in New York. There's family court. There are. You could get orders, protection, if you're scared. If you're afraid that you won't have money there, you get court orders so that you are supported. There are remedies, but you have to do it by using the legal system. You have to exercise your rights. And unless you seek counsel or somebody who knows, you might not know what.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Counsel, meaning a lawyer?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How do you feel about marriage counseling? Have you seen it work?

[Jennifer Hutt]

Great. I'm not sure. And, you know, I'm not sure. I think if it works, it works, but I don't know that it's a. And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't work because you can't work through your issues. Yeah, I think you can. I think every couple has issues, but you're either gonna be the couple that stays in the issues and stays married or not. I do think there's a very fine line between couples who make it and couples who don't.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

For some of my friends, I feel like therapy made them realize they need to go.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Well, sometimes that happens too.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You know, it gave them more clarity.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Sometimes that happens.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

This. This isn't going to work, or I'm just not going to. I'm not going to do this for another 10, 15 years.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I think that very often, even when the catalyst wasn't what somebody wanted on the other side, even the spouse who's been harmed or whatever will ultimately feel better for the most part, because the catalyst really is usually just a catalyst. Now, I'm not saying that the person who does wrong or violates the marriage contract or does things they shouldn't do isn't a jerk. Sure. But it's rare instances that it's just somebody's a jerk.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Black or white, Correct.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

You're so funny and used humor to talk about really hard parts of life.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Weight, everything.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Divorce, your daughter's illness, you know, all the tough things that you've been through. How do you keep that humor going?

[Jennifer Hutt]

So, I don't know. I think I was raised that if you can't find the funny, then what's the point of living? Because, what, are we supposed to just be at a ball in our bed? 24. I mean, that might be nice, but, like, you gotta be able to get out and deal. And humor is a coping skill, and it changes your chemistry and your brain chemistry, like. Like exercise, like, moving. When we laugh, we feel better. So find a way to get the laughter. And, I mean, my daughter had a heart attack at 24 years old. That came out of nowhere, made no sense. There was zero risk. She had every toxic screen. I mean, there had been. There was no reason for this. It's scad. Do you know about scad? Spontaneous coronary arterial dissection. We still don't even fully get that. It's scad. She doesn't have fmd. I mean, it's all so crazy. And at the time, I mean, she was extraordinary. She was so funny in her hospital bed, the whole thing. And we just laughed our way through this awful, awful time. We still laugh about it because it makes no sense. And sometimes it's. The only way you can kind of wrap your head around something is to laugh. I mean, the amount of times I left when my parents were dying, my sister and I would crack up. The absurdity of life. I mean, it is absurd. Think about the things we do. Think about the trouble we have. Think about the great stuff. Most of it is pretty freaking absurd. So if you can't find the funny in it, I don't know, what's the point?

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Yeah, I'm so, so, so glad our listeners are gonna love this because this topic always blows up.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Blows up. Not just the dry vagina. That's the takeaway.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And that was the conversation I had this morning with a menopause expert. What are the top key things that you want listeners to take away from this conversation?

[Jennifer Hutt]

This is a thing I always told my kids growing up, that there's no problem that can't be managed. Not everything can be fixed. I get it. But you can manage everything. We can get through everything. There's always an option to be okay. You will be okay. I know it's trite and it's so cliche to say you're not alone, but you're really not. I promise you, the thing that you're going through, that you think it's only you. Yes, for you, it is the worst thing ever, but someone else has gone through it too. And there's again, beauty in that. Cause it's community. And that. That's really helpful, like, just to know that you're not the only one suffering so menopause.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

And you're almost there.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I promise.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I need it there.

[Jennifer Hutt]

I know it's good that my ovaries still work, but it's time. I'm done.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Menopause often feels like society wants us to hit pause. But you are not hitting pause.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Oh, no, not at all. I'm having the best time. Like, I am so much happier now than I was at 30. Like, I don't want to be 30.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Did you ever imagine you'd be doing this?

[Jennifer Hutt]

No, I didn't. I definitely did not expect my life to be where it is today, for better or for worse. But I'm good. It's like that. Weevils wobble, but we don't fall down. Like, I just. I keep going. And I. Like, I love life. I've always had that optimism in me, even when things are really, really rough.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

How do you find a good divorce attorney? Not everybody can go to New York and come find.

[Jennifer Hutt]

No, no. But I mean, there are resources. There's family law resources online that you can look. Lawyers. Then you meet them. You have to meet with lawyers. Oh, this is key. And I did a reel about this a while ago. If you meet with a divorce lawyer then your spouse can't so go and have I've heard that many consults because you can sort of do that. But yeah it's and as word of mouth is really helpful. It's not always Google reviews sometimes I guess but word of mouth talk to people names float around, people kind of know and ask ask questions.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Awesome.

[Jennifer Hutt]

Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. I love that we get to sit together.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

I know.

[Jennifer Hutt]

She is so cute in person. Let me tell you. It's not smoke and mirrors like Dr. Mary Claire actually is that cute.

[Podcast Announcer]

As a reminder to our audience, you.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Can follow Jenny on Instagram at justjennyhut. She is also on TikTok ennyhutt and you can reach out to Jenny for a complimentary [e-mail] I would love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram Dr. Maryclaire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness and navigating [e-mail] My upcoming book, the New Perimenopause is available for pre order on Amazon. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. While you're there, leave us a review and be sure to share the show with the women you love. We would be so grateful. You can also find full episodes on YouTube at Dr. Maryclaire. Unpaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on Unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.