← UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [01:43]
Sheila Marie
Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for black women, and the founder of the Curvy Curly Conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Hey hey beautiful souls. Welcome back to Unruly. This is the podcast where we undo, unlearn and unfix ourselves to become unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie, and before we dive into today's extra juicy topic, I want to hear from you. Please. I love hearing your messages, your stories or your questions related to the podcast. Head to speakpipe.comunruly and leave me your thoughts, questions or stories about staying unruly because remember, this is a two way conversation. Okay, I don't Want to just talk to myself here. And your voice in this conversation matters. So please head to speakpipe.com unruly now, with that out of the way, we are going into today's episode. My goodness, I have been counting down the days. I have been waiting to talk to Dr. Candice. Well, live. I was going to say live in person, but you know, face to face. Because we have been ig friends for a long time. I feel like I know you in so many ways. We talk about so many things. But I'm very, very much glad to get into it with you here. Okay. We are talking about reclaiming our power through sexual liberation. Okay? Pleasure as our birthright. Let's face it, society puts a lot of investment into telling us to be quiet, hide or tame this part of ourselves. So who better to guide us through this conversation than the brilliant Dr. Candice Nicole hardens. She's a psychologist, a sexologist, award winning researcher, period, heavy on the researcher, and soon to be author of Good Sex. Her work is all about helping people, and especially black women, to embrace their sensuality, release shame, and redefine what good sex means on their own terms. Dr. Candice, welcome to Unruly Sheila.
- [04:04]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
No, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me and for that lovely introduction. It's been like a dream to connect with you and get into this good talk.
- [04:16]
Sheila Marie
So the feeling is mutual. Okay, so we're gonna hop right into it with a little icebreaker. Okay, so you have a new book coming out in February 2025, right? It's called Good Sex. So if you could describe good sex in three words, what three words would you use?
- [04:34]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Every time I ask this question, I have a different answer, but one word remains the same. Transcendent. I want the sex to elevate me. I want to feel like I meet God. I want to feel like it's so good that I have a mind, body, soul, communion with whoever I'm engaging in sex with, whether it's myself or my husband. And so that is my main word. I also want it to be pleasurable and I also want it to be communicative. Like we telling each other what we want, how we want it, where we want it.
- [05:15]
Sheila Marie
So those are my three great. What about, like, I don't even know. I feel like whatever words I had, I'm like, no, those are not the words now. Those are not big enough words. Okay, so if I had to choose three words, I would. I think I'm going to steal transcendent from you because I never would have thought of that. But it's a great word. Transcendent fun. I love to have fun. Like playful during sex and fulfilling for both of us. That's what I want. I want everybody to walk away happy customers.
- [05:50]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
They came what they got and they got what they came for, period.
- [05:53]
Sheila Marie
All the. All the things. So. And then I have one more icebreaker for you. What has been the most joyful part of working in the sexual wellness space?
- [06:06]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I really like when I get to take what I study as a scientist and share it with people who will never read any of my journal articles. Because I really don't do it for academia. I do it for us. And so when I get to talk to people like you or write about it in magazines or something where like, people like my grandm. Are going to listen to it, read it, like, that's really what I love most because we haven't had good enough conversations about sex. Most of us didn't get that coming up. And so to be able to be one of the voices in it, that. That means a lot to me.
- [06:42]
Sheila Marie
Wow. Yeah. And it's like, that's why I said heavy on the researcher in the beginning, because I. I mean, I don't even. I feel like I don't even deserve to say that I was in academia. I mean, although I did. I did go to Tisch. Performance studies is an academic program.
- [06:57]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
It absolutely is.
- [06:59]
Sheila Marie
I mean, people who went. I know who went on to do PhDs, and it's so intellectually rigorous to write research and to publish it and how many hoops you have to go through, how clear you have to be, how thorough you have to be. And then like, you publish it in, like, outside of academia, no one's gonna know. Like, they, they're like, whatever. But like, this research grounds all of these conversations we're having in pop in popular space. Like, it grounds us back to things that are tangible and real. Especially in now in this age with social. Where misinformation can take off and grow legs like nothing. Like every. You know, it can seem real and feel very real because so many people are talking about it. So, like, that research element, especially for us in the space of sexual wellness, we thank you. Okay? Thank you. We do. Because I. I know only the. The tip of the iceberg of how much it takes. And I just, I respect y'all a lot. Cause I wrote a baby book and baby. Hey, hey. It was not no joke.
- [08:03]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Definitely did not write a baby book. Wrote a whole. No, I did.
- [08:06]
Sheila Marie
I did. I'm working on it. That's one of my things I'm working on for 20, 24. Letting myself be big, big, big, big. Yes, yes, yes. I did. I wrote an adult book. So let's get into it. You wrote a book, and it's called good sex. So what's good sex?
- [08:20]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Okay, so good sex is sex that is good to and for everybody who's involved, and the definition of what that is is contingent on the person. So in the book, I talk about these good sex ingredients that you can use. They're really like sexual seasonings, if you will. Like, so, like, the behaviors, like, you know, kissing might be like a wing rubbing might be like a side, but the seasonings are what make it good. And so intimacy and love, pleasure, passion, communication, nastiness, like whatever you want to season it with. I break down those seasonings and have everybody create, like, the meal of their dreams. And it might. Like, when you asked me that question in the beginning, you were like, what three words? And I'm like, I might want to eat something different each time, right? So today it might look like this, but tomorrow I might season it with a little bit more nastiness or I might season it with a little bit more love. Both, you know, like, so that's what good sex is. Everybody gets to make it curated to their palette.
- [09:27]
Sheila Marie
Is it. Am I right in saying this? This is. I'm asking you, as a researcher, do. Do you. Is it normal for people to go through phases of things that they like? So for me, I loved, like, my. I like, I guess it's my podcast. I'm about to ask somebody, can I curse? Can I talk about this girl? This is my podcast. Give myself permission. I used to love titties. Everything, titties, everything titties. And then I got into a phase. I don't. I don't know if it correlated, but it was like, really, after I went through some miscarriages, I just didn't want them touched at all. And I was like, what's happening? I used to be my favorite thing. So is that, like, typical, right? People go through.
- [10:05]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
It's very normal. It's very normal. And to your point about just touching and agreeing on having miscarriages and knowing what that does to you emotionally and physically. You know, our breasts are a source of nutrition, and maybe you had desires and hopes around that. And so being able to use it in sexual ways when you had a different plan envisioned for them, I can see how you would be like, not right now. This isn't. This ain't the move for me in this season and it could come back in another season. But the. Yeah, yeah, because I'm in the. I'm in the bag of breastfeeding right now. I got like a month and some change left with my 11 month old. So, you know, them things off limits for a little bit.
- [10:45]
Sheila Marie
Right, right. Like, it's already a lot going on there. Okay, thank you for affirming that. That was just a personal, selfish question. Hopefully one of my listeners or many res.
- [10:56]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people because we grow like, you're not the same woman you were when you were 21, you know, and so the things I like as 21 year old Candace, totally different than the things I like as 41 year old Candace. And so it could be that some things stay the same. You got some staples, like certain meals you don't always like, you know, especially when they're prepared well. And there's certain things like I didn't used to like truffle, but now I'm a truffle girl. And so I didn't even know truffle existed in my 20s. That's a good.
- [11:28]
Sheila Marie
Like, I was just over here eating craft, you know, singles I ain't even know. Okay.
- [11:33]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And was. It still is.
- [11:34]
Sheila Marie
And so I sure will.
- [11:36]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I was definitely a smack one. I was at Applebee's, you know, and I still like Applebee's from every now.
- [11:41]
Sheila Marie
And again my bonus daughter has meeting at Chili's. Okay. I was like, only for you. Okay. Sister. She love them little chilies. I don't know. It's some type of meal you get at Chili's. I'm like, okay. But. Okay. I want to ask you about a sexual liberation. Okay. We talk about liberation a lot on this podcast. And when I think of sexual liberation, popular speak, like, when I think about the popular conversation around sexual liberation, I'm not saying people who are in the. In the work, in the field like you or maybe even like me, who are deep in this. But popularly, I noticed, I was like, oh, I think that there are some women who conceive of sexual liberation, meaning I can have sex like a man. And that's liberating. Like if I can just have sex and not have feelings, or if I can just have sex and be casual or if I can just have different partners. And having different partners makes me liberated. And for some women, that might. But I wonder how much of that is just replicating what men do and calling it liberation.
- [12:47]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah, I don't know, I don't think a lot of men are sexually liberated. So to have sex like men is not necessarily liberation, right? Liberation is when you're living your authentic sexual self. That means you're sexually self aware to know what you really want, what you desire, and that you are authentic enough to make those decisions about your sexual behavior, even when all of society is telling you it should be this way. And the shoulds are so narrow for a lot of us, like a lot of us have been negotiating respectability, politics. A lot of us have been negotiating not wanting to be seen as a certain type of woman, a certain type of black woman, a certain type of person. So I call that sexual stereotype threat. But when you come to yourself and you think about what you really fantasize about, what you really like, what pleases you, do you have enough empowerment, authenticity to say what your yeses are, what your nos are, and what your maybe so's are, that's sexual liberation. In the book I write about how for some people they might say, you know, I only want to have sex with one person. I want it to be really good for the rest of my life. And that's liberation to them. For me it might be. You know, I've had plenty of sexual experiences with different people and I've learned a lot and that was liberation for me. And both of those are liberated. You know, as long as you came to the decision without the, without the imposition of all of these scripts about what sex should and shouldn't be, it.
- [14:22]
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- [15:23]
Sheila Marie
Okay. I love that. And I. I bet that liberation is always. To me, liberation is an individual choice. It is you being able to choose. You get to choose. Choosing what?
- [15:36]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And it can be happening in community or communion. Right? Because to have a partner who facilitates your liberation, who uses their power to liberate instead of dominate, you can open you up to some aspects of your sexual self that you didn't even know existed. Right? So there's a. There's a part of it where it's you autonomously making decisions about your sexual liberation. But a lot of the work I do is with couples. It's with units of romantic or sexual partners who are like, how can I contribute to the good sex that you desire and deserve? How can you contribute to the good sex I desire and deserve? How can we liberate each other so that when I ask for something that's on my yes list, you're not yucking my yum, you know? And you can decide together what that looks like?
- [16:23]
Sheila Marie
Yes. We don't yuck people's yum over here. Okay. When it comes to generational traumas with black women, how do you see those traumas and cultural narratives shaping the way black women experience sexuality?
- [16:41]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
That one can go so deep. I know you and your work, you have touched on some of these pieces a lot. Like, when you think about how black women in particular have been used as the, like, cautionary tale of what sex shouldn't be. And at the same time, we have been the most exploited, sexually dehumanized and assaulted. That creates a recipe where people think we're talking about generational curses, but what we're talking about is, like, responding to trauma. Trauma responses, right? Intergenerational trauma responses, which were adaptive at a certain point. So I never want to take away from our grandmothers and great grandmothers and how they thought they needed to adapt to the type of stuff that they were dealing with. Our ancestors and also our liberation strategies got to evolve, just like we had to evolve. Right? And so respectability, politics might have been something that made sense for the club women of the early 1900s when they were coming to suffrage movements and white women were telling them to go to the bath, they might need to put on their pill hats and their gloves and say, you know, would ladies sit like this? And I cross my leg like this? And I don't share this information. But at the same time, blues women existed right? And blues women were talking about getting that thing knocked off the box and eating and sucking and kissing, like, you know, and they were. They were happening at the same time. And so even as we think about generational experiences that have been passed down, there have always been resistors. There have always been people who were assimilators, and there have always been people in the middle who are trying to, like, figure it out. And so I think most of us are in that middle space where we're like, sometimes you don't even know that you're repeating a traumatic pattern until somebody shows you a mirror, somebody that cares about you, hopefully. And it's like, oh, that is actually not serving me. Certainly not serving you. Like, so how do we. How do we rethink this? And then it's hard to change.
- [18:45]
Sheila Marie
It is. It can.
- [18:46]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
So let me name how human beings. It takes us a long time to change behavior, and we have to have compassion for ourselves. And once we realize and get some insight about stuff, it doesn't mean that you're going to change overnight.
- [19:00]
Sheila Marie
I know, right? I feel like a light bulb moment for me was when I realized that knowing there's like a gap between intellectually understanding something and then having the skill to implement it or change the behavior, there's a gap there, like, and having.
- [19:17]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
The fortitude once you have the skill.
- [19:19]
Sheila Marie
Exactly.
- [19:19]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Because you got, like, you hit it on the head. You first, you know, you're like, oh, I know better.
- [19:24]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, I need to do better.
- [19:27]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Then you get the skill to do better. And it's like, it take a lot of energy to do better, because I've been doing that.
- [19:33]
Sheila Marie
They always be like, if you know.
- [19:34]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Better, you'll do better.
- [19:35]
Sheila Marie
Not necessarily.
- [19:36]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Not necessarily.
- [19:37]
Sheila Marie
Because I know better in a lot of ways. Don't always do better. And so that's right. There is a gap. There is. So it's good to have grace and be gentle with ourselves as we move towards doing better, when we know better. I want to talk about reclaiming Pleasure. We have. I think this is the third or fourth interview that I've done on this podcast where Reclaiming Pleasure has come up. Is. Is such a. It is such an important touch point for black women, I think, especially since I'm sure you can touch and agree, as you said, that historically speaking, our bodies have not been our own. And so being able to own our body and our pleasure, to me, is such a powerful act. And in your book, you talk about reclaiming pleasure as a birthright. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, what does that mean? How do we do it?
- [20:32]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah. So I call it a concept of pleasure worthiness. And it relates to your inherent sense of worthiness, whether it's about pleasure or any other right that you have. And the way I help people think about it is think about the thing you like best about yourself. Like, it might be your smile, it might be your mind, it might be the way you write whatever that thing is. And then if that thing went away for whatever reason, maybe it's away for a season, maybe you no longer have that capacity. Do you still feel worthy? It's the same for pleasure worthiness. It's like, aren't you still worthy of the good, all the good life has to offer when you make a mistake. Aren't you still worthy of all the good, the pleasure life has to offer if today you don't work two times as hard, three times as hard, ten times as hard as our counterparts? And remembering that, affirming that for yourself regularly like that is what pleasure worthiness comes to. It's like, it's inherent, there's nothing you can do to change it. You came in the world pleasure worthy, you will leave the world pleasure worthy. So how do you manage the responsibility of enjoying things that are pleasurable to you in the context of all of the other pieces of your life?
- [21:57]
Sheila Marie
Do you. Are you specifically talking about pleasure worthy in terms of sex or you mean across the board?
- [22:05]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Across the board. I think sex is one of many pleasures. I think food is delicious. Right? That's a pleasure. Non sexual touch is pleasurable. Sexual touch and experiences are pleasurable. Sometimes you delight in things that are sexual and sometimes you delight in things that are non sexual pleasure. In general though, things that feel good to you, they're necessary. And I think, I don't know if you have had this experience, but as a woman that has, like running a business and having a family and, you know, having having a community that you serve, sometimes we can put our pleasure on the back burner, sexual and otherwise. And at the end of the day, we don't have enough energy to pour into ourselves in pleasurable ways. So we do the things we have to do, our obligations, but not the things that bring us joy or help us feel that good, that good pleasure.
- [23:06]
Sheila Marie
And you know, you've also talked about too, how good sex is more than just physical pleasure.
- [23:12]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yes, sir.
- [23:13]
Sheila Marie
Yeah. Can you break down what that means for us?
- [23:15]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah, because. Okay, so the concept I'm thinking about is intimate justice. I think the sexual space is such a good playground for A lot of people who have been doing liberation work, social justice work, racial justice, all of these like amazing and big movements that we've, we've seen in the past few decades. People miss the mark when it comes to their home, when it comes to their most intimate relationships. So I've worked with therapeutically, lots of people who've involved in like social justice movements and they're experiencing abuse at home.
- [23:57]
Sheila Marie
Wow.
- [23:58]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You know, and it's like this is the playground to where sex can be an aspect of your equity movement. It can be an aspect of how do you give and receive? What does reciprocity look like between you and your partners? Do you find that you're selfish in that regard? Do you find that you're guarded in that regard? Do you find that you're always giving and not receiving? Do you find yourself uncomfortable with that? Like those questions that people can ask means that sex is more than just, oh, this feels good. It's also an exercise or practice in how do I stand for myself? How do I stand with myself? How do I not betray me while I love on you or enjoy you?
- [24:41]
Sheila Marie
How do I not betray me while I love on you? That's a bar. That's a bar. Wow. And speaking of loving on ourselves, whenever I incorporate any type of sex education intimacy workshop in my retreats, the first thing that comes up is shame. In a group of women, I pretty much almost. I would.
- [25:07]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
What do they be saying?
- [25:08]
Sheila Marie
They're ashamed of the way that their bodies look. They're ashamed of past partners. They're ashamed of things they did, things they didn't do. They're ashamed that they were sexualized too young. They're ashamed that they were sexualized by other people. All of the. It just, it's so loaded with shame. And I feel they. I want to know, have you found that sexual shame is common in your research? And is it. How does it show up specifically in black women?
- [25:41]
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- [26:12]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah, sexual shaming is very common. So have you ever been called fast? That's sexual shaming, right? And I think most of us have had that experience with, well, stop being fast. You wearing something and they don't like the way your body is showcased in it. You fast, you ain't had no intentions on doing. You just wanted to wear something you like to wear in your fast. That's sexual shaming. So it's built into, like, the undercurrent of how black girls are socialized. And if you hear those messages along the way, what comes with that? Well, if you're fast, you're going to get pregnant and, you know, be somebody's baby mama and never have a good life and nobody.
- [26:56]
Sheila Marie
And also, if you're fast, you can't ever be a victim.
- [26:59]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You can't listen, can't ever be a victim. Like, they build out this whole thing to avoid placing the blame where the blame is right on the people who perpetrate. And that's where sexual shaming comes from. So a lot of times, women, when we experience discomfort with our bodies or shame about our bodies, it's not usually born in us. It's usually somebody shared a message with you or several messages with you along the way. And now you, hi. Or now you, like, back up. Or if we find shame about who we've had sex with, how much sex we've had, how little sex we've had, any of those things. You might hear messages about, oh, you know, nobody's gonna love her or nobody's gonna. You see this in these, like, podcasts all the time. We don't want to date single mothers and we don't want to. And it's like, that's so unnecessary, shaming.
- [27:56]
Sheila Marie
The woman who brought life into the world. Like, I. I just think it's absurd. Imagine, imagine. And I love how men are always admitted from the conversation, like, they're just single mothers. How did they become a single mother? Where's the single? Where's the dad? Like, you know, even I saw a video. We were talking about this yesterday. I saw a video of a kid acting up in Walmart the other day, and all the comments were asking, where's the mom? Where's the mom? Nobody asked where the dad was. Even the UN just published data that said the most dangerous place for a woman is in her home. And citing how globally women are, are unalived by their intimate partners. Nowhere did it say men in the title. It's like, who are they killed by? How do they die?
- [28:39]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Thank you. Let's name a thing. Like, let's say what it is.
- [28:43]
Sheila Marie
And it's really tricky because I love men, like, and I love black men. But it is so tricky because these conversations need to be had, you know? I know. In terms of.
- [28:54]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
What do you think makes it tricky, though? Because I fully am touching and agreeing with you on loving them. I love me some black men in particular.
- [29:02]
Sheila Marie
What makes it tricky is people conflate critique with hate. You know, they use the word feminism as a slur and, like, oh, you know, you. Y'all hate men. Y'all hate men. Y'all hate men. And it just feels like you can't really bring up your actual concerns. They get dismissed or they just get brushed off as being hating men.
- [29:27]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Mm, absolutely. And it's like, for. For you to be a woman, for us to be women who love men, who have poured into the lives of men, uplifted them, shared time, intimacy, courage, honor, deference, reverence with men to be minimized to. The critique is gaslighting, as far as it is.
- [29:51]
Sheila Marie
It is. Like, I say it all the time, no, I don't hate men. I'm scared of them. Like, I tell my husband all the time, I do not feel safe around a majority of men. And I'm talking emotionally safe, physically safe, you know, I avoid. It's sad to say, but I. I spend most of my time with black women because I feel an equal amount of unsafety with white people and black men. I hate. I don't hate it. I don't want to say that. I don't want that to be the case for me. And I feel like if I say that, people are like, you just the wrong. You were around the wrong man, you around the wrong ones. And it's always. There's a dismissal of, like. There's actual data, though, that proves that what I. My experience is not an anomaly. It's actually more the rule than the exception to the rule. And so it just becomes. That's why I feel like it becomes tricky, because if I wasn't trying to be in community with men, if I didn't love black men, if they weren't my brothers, my dads, my friends, this would be easier because I would just be like, well, that's their problem. But we're in this together, and I'm married to a black man, obviously. And so we are in this together, and we have these difficult conversations too. And I. And I have to say all the time, like, you Know, it's. This is my work. This is my life. I'm not a person who goes to a 9 to 5 and then shuts off a computer and goes home. Like, my work is my life. My life is my work. I love women. And I. What I am is I am hurt by seeing how much women are hurt by men. Carrie.
- [31:22]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
But you know what? This conversation I've been having with my husband is that a lot of black men are afraid of each other, too. And so it's interesting when they spin the stories like you and Sheila are afraid. It's like they feel afraid, too. So how do we honor where the fear comes from? And it's like, I think there's heart. The world has stereotyped black men, and there is this depiction of them as violent. There is a media representation of them in that way. And also, some of us have had experiences that have hurt us, that have harmed us. And so if we can't be honest about where the hurt and harm comes from. And I'll say there are plenty of black men that have had experiences where they've been hurt and harmed by each other. And so they feel guarded when they walk into a room of other black men. And they know that I wish they could express that empathy when a woman says the same thing. But I also get the other side of not wanting to be stereotyped and villainized. So it's like having a nuanced conversation and not just a black and white conversation.
- [32:36]
Sheila Marie
Exactly. Because it is. This is all so complex. There's no one way. I mean it.
- [32:42]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Sheila Marie
Even the way that I don't feel safe is loaded. There's a lot of personal trauma. There's a lot of personal things. There's things that are larger, structural. It. It is so complicated. So I feel like just being able to have the conversation is the start, as you said. And I do want to say one thing. We were talking about shame and how women get. Or girls. Girls get called fast. And I remember I grew up. There was like, a few formative years of my life where I didn't really get to see other black women. I was raised in the house. It was only. My mom is non black. My sister wasn't black. And my other sister, who is black, didn't live with me. She lived with my dad. And so I was there. And I noticed, without having the language around it, that I was different because I was shaped differently. Like, when we would go to the pool and stuff, I was always trying to cover my butt, make my butt smaller. Like I didn't like the attention around it. I think even men started commenting even when I was 10 years old, 12 years old, on my body. And it made me so uncomfortable that it took me years. I didn't realize until I was in therapy in my late 20s that part of the reason that I cover myself up, I always covered myself up. Like when I was walking around, I would always have a coat or a duster and a backpack covering my. Like, how much I covered my body for so many years was connected to that. And so for me, reclaiming my. My body became being able to show or not show what I want on my own terms. So.
- [34:13]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
That's right. On your own terms is the liberation.
- [34:16]
Sheila Marie
Yes. Yeah, yeah, Right. Period. Let's talk about community for a second because we've been talking about this as an individual experience, but you actually articulate that this is a community. There's a community aspect to this. And so can you talk to us about the link between sexual liberation and community?
- [34:36]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah. When you are a black woman in particular, and you get affirmation from other black women about your sexual experiences, your sexual decision making, your sexual storytelling, when you get game from other black women about, like, how to take good care of your body, how to treat yourself, how to honor it, you know, not shaming, but like, in affirming ways. When you have multi generational conversations where you hearing your auntie, I write about this in the beginning of the book, overhearing my auntie talk about her experiences where I'm getting my hair braided and be pretending I'm sleep. Right. Like, growing up in a community of black women who lean sex positive is a difference maker. It's a difference maker than growing up in a community of black women who have bought into patriarchy or heteronormativity or respectability politics.
- [35:40]
Sheila Marie
I'm shaking my head so hard, it's gonna roll off. Yes.
- [35:46]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And so I want to be that type of auntie.
- [35:48]
Sheila Marie
Right.
- [35:49]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I want to be that sister where it's like, girls, we had my 25 year friend reunion, my homegirls who we met in high school my junior year. And so we all got dressed. We were wearing our little jersey dresses, like what we would have wore back in the day. And we kicked. It had a weekend in August. And so I was just asking questions about sex and stuff. Like, these are conversations that we didn't really have back then. Even though we were engaging and sex, like, we were just not talking about it in liberating ways. And I was like, okay, what do y'all like, oh, I don't really like that one much, but I like this one. Oh, okay. Having a community, a sisterhood around sex, where it makes the conversations normal and not taboo, where it's affirming, like, that's everything. It feels so good. So I love to be able to facilitate conversations like that, but I also like to participate and just be a learner and a listener, too. I always don't want to be the leader.
- [36:44]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, me too. Right. I feel like that's going to be one of my, Our greatest contributions, like, to the next generation is we're going to be the aunties. Like, I'm already there. I'm already the auntie. Like, you can talk to me about anything. I'm not going to judge you. I'm thinking about you. I'm always going to be thinking about, like, okay, even if I might have opinions on this, you know, this has happened in my family a few times. I'm like, girl, what? But you can talk to me and I'll make sure that you're safe and get the care that you need or whatever. But that, to me, I feel like, I love that you touched on that. It makes such a difference because I know if you're growing up and you're having questions, you're going to find the answers. I'd rather.
- [37:22]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And you might find them in a place that don't know what they talk about.
- [37:25]
Sheila Marie
Hello. Hello. And I know they, I mean, I, I, I, I wonder how it is. Maybe one of these days I'll get a younger, like someone from Gen Z or something on my podcast to talk. Like, I can't even conceptualize what it is like to learn about sex with the access to Google. Can you imagine?
- [37:44]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Like, I, I mentor a lot of younger people who are, like, in their early 20s. And, you know, they teach me so much because they have access to all this information, like you said. But a lot of them are really literate, media literate, and so they know who they should and shouldn't be following. I worry about the ones that aren't as literate who are like, I'm just following people because they're popular as opposed to people who know what they're talking about.
- [38:12]
Sheila Marie
So do you feel like the access to information has been, it's having a positive effect on them?
- [38:18]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I think that it's mixed. I think it's mixed. And if we, you know, as people who like to, you know, be in the media, you have a podcast and communicating, like, these are some of the people that you might want to look to like they know what they're talking about. And these are some of the people that they're just saying stuff that sounds catchy. They have no idea what they're talking about. They happen to have a platform.
- [38:40]
Sheila Marie
Right.
- [38:40]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Who platformed them? Who knows? But.
- [38:44]
Sheila Marie
Right. And so, okay, how, if a woman wants to differentiate between what they've been told about sex versus what they truly feel they want in sex, how can they begin to do that process of differentiation?
- [39:01]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
That's such a good question. And I think it starts in the body. I think the body is so wise, and especially when we're talking about sex, your chest tightness or relaxation, your gut tightness or relaxation, your shoulders, your jaw, even your vulva, your vagina is going to communicate some things to you about, like, what you really want, what you don't want. And so being able to be attuned to our bodies. The world kind of takes us out of our bodies so much. Like, we have so many things that numb us out. So getting mindful, I think, is a first step in that There are certain things where if the idea comes to mind and you feel like butterflies in your stomach, but immediately you start pushing it down because you don't think it sounds right, that's you taking some of those cultural recipes that might not be as healthy and squashing something that might really be liberating for you. And then if you have people who are kind of compounding that message and just pouring down on your. If you're looking at social media and they're coming up with things about like, oh, you ain't. You're not gonna find nobody if you do this, this, and this. And it doesn't sit right with you, but you feel like you have to follow it to be worthy, to be desirable, to be lovable. You know, you're. You're missing some tells in your body. So have you ever been in a situation where you walk into a room and you feel she ain't right in the room? Like, yeah, you can sense that, right? I let people, like, I can smell bullshit in the room. Like, something ain't right in here. My shoulders, my body is like, girl, get out. I think that our bodies have been communicating before we even had language, and now it's time to reattune to them.
- [40:48]
Sheila Marie
I love that, that our bodies are always communicating all the time. And it's up to us. Our job is to listen, I think. Is that. Is that right?
- [40:55]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You don't have to judge it. You don't even have to always follow it. But listen, like you said, just hear it out without. Without trying to squash.
- [41:04]
Sheila Marie
I find that to be so healing when I listen to myself, without judgment and when I just go, okay, all right, we're not going. We're not going to that thing. I don't know why we're not going. And I find that the more that I do that, the more I feel in alignment with myself and the more confidence I have in myself. I'm like, no, I trust myself because.
- [41:22]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You haven't betrayed you. Right, Right. You heard what you were trying to tell yourself on a spirit level or a soul level. You listened. That affirms that, oh, I know what I be talking about.
- [41:33]
Sheila Marie
Okay, cool. Yeah. What are some common misconceptions about sexual liberation that you encounter and how can we address them?
- [41:44]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah. Okay. So I definitely consider myself a hot girl scientist.
- [41:48]
Sheila Marie
Yes.
- [41:48]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Hot girl scientist wrestler. I love me a little old school hot girl from the 99 to the 2000s, and I love me a little new school hot girl, like a megastallion. So, like, I think about their. Their representation of sexual liberation and what that means, and I think one of the misconceptions is that it always has to look like that. And it's like that works for them in a moment, in a season, and that is beautiful. And I love to affirm that. And if it doesn't look like that for you, if it looks totally different, but it feels true to you, like aligned with your values, authentic for you, that's also sexual liberation. So I think that's one of the common myths that sex, positivity or sexual liberation has to look one way. It doesn't. I think another myth is that you get to a healed place alone. So sexual healing is not a solitude thing, just like no liberation is. It's always done in solidarity. And that means you have to learn to trust people again. You have to learn to trust yourself and trust people again. And that is so hard for us because many of us struggle with being vulnerable enough to trust. So many of us have become guarded and defended, understandably, because we live in a raggedy world. Sometimes it can be really raggedy. And so I get where it comes from. And also, like taking those small steps to trust in yourself, like you just described, with listening to yourself and honoring what your body said or what your mind said or what your soul said, and trusting in other people and being able to discern who is trustworthy in what ways. Because I think you can trust people showing up the way that they said they were going to show up and the way you've seen them show up, regardless of whether they're telling themselves the truth or not. Right.
- [43:47]
Sheila Marie
I can trust that you're going to be shown me to be who you been. I love that. How?
- [43:54]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
How does they trust you gonna be who you.
- [43:56]
Sheila Marie
How does someone get to that place, that liberated place if they're like. If someone's listening right now and she's like, man, I haven't touched myself. I don't even know. I was taught that was a bad thing to do. And I just wait for someone else to give me an orgasm or pleasure. And I don't even know where to start. I feel so disconnected, out of my body. What would you say to her?
- [44:17]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
My first step for most people is a yes, no, maybe so list. I talk about this all the time. It's pretty common in sex education. So you just get a single piece of paper, real easy, three columns. You can use your notes app, however you want to do it. But one column is yes, one column is no, one column is maybe so. And your yes list are all the things you're like, I love that. I want to keep doing it. I've been doing it. It works for me. For the things that you've never tried before that you know you want to try before you leave this earth. That's your yes list. Your no list is like, I tried that once, I'll never got to try it again. Nothing about that did it for me or I don't even have to try it. I could tell you without a shadow of a doubt it's a no for me. And then your maybe solace is like, you know, it depends on the contact because am I in Jamaica or it's like, you know, it's my birthday. It's the kind. It's content. It's more. If everyone were to start there, to admit only to themselves what's on your yes, no and maybe so list at this season of your life and it could change. And that's okay. I think that's a good first step. You don't have to show the list to anybody. You can if you want to, but honoring that, you have desires, you have things that are boundary to you, and you have things that are flexible.
- [45:41]
Sheila Marie
I love that. Would you be willing to share one thing on your maybe list?
- [45:47]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
So I definitely want to have sex outside on a balcony. Oh my gosh, that's on my maybe list. It depends on the context. Like how many people are around that I know I need to be somewhere off in the sunset.
- [46:00]
Sheila Marie
I Love that. I was just thinking, I'm like, what would I be putting on my list? I'm like, that's funny because I'm like, my maybe list would include. No, this would be on the. You said it's a yes no maybe, right? So yes could be something you want to do but haven't done yet, right?
- [46:14]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
That's right.
- [46:14]
Sheila Marie
Okay. That's right. So on my yes list would be. I wish we could do this. But I just feel like because me and Ace are recognizable, it makes it tricky. But I wish we could just go to a whole nudist resort, like have a whole. I want to do that nude vacation.
- [46:29]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I can't get my. My husband's like, I ain't.
- [46:31]
Sheila Marie
He's like, ain't no way, boy. I said, I know you going to be causing ruckus, honey, but I just feel like it would be so cool. It's so fun. But I don't know, there's too many.
- [46:41]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You gotta, you have to go to one where like the, the NDAs and the agreements are set, you know, where people respect the boundaries of that. And my husband's like, I don't care, I'm not doing it.
- [46:54]
Sheila Marie
So I don't know if he's down for that. I mean he's open minded to it. So maybe it'll be on my, my check your maybe. So it's on my yes list now. Maybe it'll be on my done list maybe. Oh, maybe we'll, we'll be open minded about it. Who knows? Thank you for sharing that. I didn't, I didn't know if you were going to answer one of those.
- [47:14]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I was like, girl, I do this okay.
- [47:16]
Sheila Marie
Period. So we are at the toolkit part of the episode and this is the episode where they listen, they love it. And now they want something practical to take away. Like okay, I love the conversation. Now how can I implement this? You might have already done it because you shared a few actionable items already. But what is maybe something for women tuning in that, that they can take away to embrace their sensuality and step more into their how to have fun anytime, anywhere.
- [47:43]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Step one, go to chumbacasino.com chumbacasino.com Got it. Step two, collect your welcome bonus.
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Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
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Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
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Sheila Marie
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Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
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Sheila Marie
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Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
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- [48:10]
Sheila Marie
See terms and conditions 18/Liberation like a practice or, you know, a grounding ritual or affirmation, anything.
- [48:20]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
So I certainly would invite everybody to do the yes, no, maybe. So that's good. But I want to put a little different, different thing out there, if that's okay. I think that affirming that I love my body as is changes and all because the body is not going to body the way it bodied all the time. Look, my breasts look different after two kids. And I got to learn to love these new breasts, right? I have C section scars. I got to learn to love this new body that I have. And so because I've had body privilege my whole life, people make assumptions about how easy that is. I think that a lot of women who understand fat phobia and who have been on the end of size ism understand this a bit better than people who've been benefiting from slim privilege, right? But to affirm your body in a world that tries to tell you you need to look a certain way is so core to sexual liberation because so much happens in the vehicle of the body. So in addition to your yes, no, maybe. So in a different. In addition to how you talk with your partner or your partners about sex, like affirming your body verbally for some of us, sometimes just I gotta look in the mirror at this beautiful body and say, I love my body as is changes and all. Sometimes you need to go as far as recording it because there will be days where you don't want to say it. It doesn't feel authentic to you. And you need to hear yourself say it, even if you can't utter the words. And some of us do better by writing it. Y'all remember Bart Simpson?
- [50:00]
Sheila Marie
Oh, yeah.
- [50:01]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Writing on the chalkboard, write them. Sometimes you need to get your notebook and write a page full of that, right? You need to write it down and make it plain several times for yourself and then read it back. So depending on how you learn and how you intake information, you can choose one of those. But I love my body as is changes and all.
- [50:21]
Sheila Marie
I love my body.
- [50:22]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And it's whether you have the body that you want or not, you have to say that to yourself.
- [50:27]
Sheila Marie
I love my body as is changes and all. I love my body as is changes and all changes. And I am going to write that a million times.
- [50:40]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yes.
- [50:40]
Sheila Marie
But I think it. It's like, this is the body we got. This is the body we got. If no if you're not gonna love it, who's gonna love it? That's right. Even if I sometimes me, I have to break it down to basics. I'm like, I'm just grateful. I got ten figures and toes. I'm grateful for all the things I take advantage of. I mean, that I take for granted. Like my. I breathe, my body breathes when I wanted to breathe. I can.
- [51:06]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
That's great.
- [51:06]
Sheila Marie
Squats and I can run and I can jump and look.
- [51:09]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
And you got a good eyebrow over there. I see that look. I love when a person.
- [51:13]
Sheila Marie
I got good eyebrows. I got good eyebrows, period.
- [51:17]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You know, but you think about like the things that we miss because we overlook the stuff that's already. Absolutely already, you know, not declining.
- [51:24]
Sheila Marie
It's like, oh, I see that.
- [51:26]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
You know, but affirming the parts that you're like.
- [51:29]
Sheila Marie
And that's where community comes in. Because I'm in community with women who are older than me and they're like, girl, if you don't appreciate it now, you gonna look back and be like, what was I thinking? And like, they'll tell me all the.
- [51:39]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Time, something I'm talking about.
- [51:40]
Sheila Marie
Okay, so they're like, enjoy your body. So, okay. Thank you so much, Dr. Candice. This was such a transformative conversation and I just don't know why, but I'm just getting the feeling this, you need to come back. I don't know what that means.
- [51:55]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I would love to.
- [51:56]
Sheila Marie
My intuition just was like, this is not her last time here. I'm like, oh, okay. Maybe when your book is out.
- [52:01]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Okay, okay.
- [52:02]
Sheila Marie
And you could come back and we will show you love for your book. We love supporting black authors. Is there anywhere that they can pre order the book now?
- [52:11]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Yeah, you can pre order everywhere. So on Amazon, on Bookshop, on Barnes and Nobles, anywhere books are sold, it can be pre ordered. It's called Good Sex and I'm Candace Nicole Har. And so you look up those two things, it'll pop up. I'm recording the audio book right now. I know you've been. You remember that part of the process. And I'm so excited because I wanted to record it in my voice. I wanted to tell my story my way. And did you have to audition to record your book?
- [52:42]
Sheila Marie
No, that, that was a part of the contract. They were like, I was like, okay, I, I want to read it.
- [52:47]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Thankfully, yeah, I absolutely. Because they were like, you got to audition. So I had to submit my own.
- [52:52]
Sheila Marie
That's crazy.
- [52:54]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Or if y'all don't pick me to Read this.
- [52:58]
Sheila Marie
Maybe they just said I'm going to.
- [52:59]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Be doing some more recording next week.
- [53:01]
Sheila Marie
Like I'm excited about that. So, so I'm definitely getting the audiobook because I love listening to audiobooks. I'm going to go pre order it after this. I, I urge you to pre order it after this as well and support black authors. And we thank you so much. Don't miss that upcoming book Good Sex. And also, let's keep this dialogue alive. If you heard something during the episode that you just wanted to comment on or you had a question about that didn't get answered, go ahead to speakpipe.comunruly and we can get, get, get you settled there. And you never know, you might make it into an episode. Okay. And do you want to share any socials or anywhere people can follow up with you before we get, before we get you out of here?
- [53:45]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I'll let y'all know where I want to be found, period. You can find me on @ Dr. Katie Nicole, on Instagram, on threads, on Facebook. Those are the places I usually am. And and then my website, drcandisnicole.com if you want to see the type of research I'm doing, some of the projects I have coming out and I love to hear from folks like I like my social media to feel like a community. So I asked a lot of questions and love to hear people's responses.
- [54:17]
Sheila Marie
It does feel like a community. I love you. I love following you.
- [54:20]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Thank you. And I love yours too because people be cheering in the in them comment section like I see you.
- [54:26]
Sheila Marie
I love my community. They're the best.
- [54:29]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I can't wait to read Unruly. That's one of my like 2020.
- [54:34]
Sheila Marie
Oh, I'm sure you have so many things Black women. Yeah. On your leisure time, let me know. You know we'd be in the DMs.
- [54:42]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I will make time.
- [54:44]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much for joining, for tuning in. And remember your sensuality, your sexuality, your liberation is yours to define. You get to choose. And what's that affirmation we're going to leave him with?
- [54:59]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
I love my body as is changes and all that's right.
- [55:05]
Sheila Marie
Until next time, stay bold, stay liberated and as always, stay unruined. Thank you Dr. Candice.
- [55:12]
Dr. Candice Nicole Hardens
Thank you.
- [55:19]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of Unruly.
- [55:46]
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