23: Are We Really Free? Astrology, Power & the Illusion of Free Will ft. Dayna Lynn Nuckolls

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Are We Really Free? Astrology, Power & the Illusion of Free Will" ft. Dana Lynn Nuckolls

Episode 23 of "UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE" released on March 11, 2025, delves deep into the intricate interplay between astrology, power dynamics, and the concept of free will within the current sociopolitical landscape. Hosted by Shelah Marie, a passionate advocate for black women and founder of the Curvy, Curly, Conscious movement, this episode features an enlightening conversation with Dana Lynn Nuckolls, also known as the People’s Oracle. Dana, a diviner, writer, and teacher, brings her unique perspective by bridging astrology with political liberation.

---

1. Setting the Stage: Political and Social Uncertainty

Shelah Marie opens the episode by painting a vivid picture of the present moment, characterized by deep political, social, and spiritual uncertainty. Institutions are crumbling, policies harmful to black communities are being rolled back, and the collective weight of these changes is palpable. Shelah poses critical questions about organizing and achieving real liberation amidst such chaos, setting the tone for a profound dialogue on navigating these turbulent times.

Shelah Marie:
"Every day, I wake up and more institutions are crumbling, and policies that directly impact black communities are being rolled back quietly, sometimes loudly. And so many of us are just feeling the weight of it all."
[00:45]

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2. Introducing Dana Lynn Nuckolls: The People's Oracle

Dana Lynn Nuckolls is introduced as a guest who offers clarity and insight into these pressing questions. Known for her sharp political analysis and deeply researched astrological forecasts, Dana bridges the gap between astrology and politics, making complex ideas accessible and actionable for her audience.

Shelah Marie:
"Today's guest is someone who has been offering clarity and insight on these questions for years. Dana Lynn Knuckles, also known as the People's Oracle."
[00:45]

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3. Understanding Divination and Its Role in Liberation

The conversation swiftly moves to the concept of divination. Dana explains divination as the process of uncovering patterns in time, life, and experience to make sense of our existence and guide us toward liberation.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"Divination is uncovering the patterns of time and life and experience. If we don't have an imagination, we just live out a colonizer's fantasy."
[06:52]

Shelah emphasizes the importance of imagination in liberation, aligning with Dana's perspective that without it, individuals remain confined within imposed narratives.

Shelah Marie:
"Imagination is such a core part of liberation. If we don't have an imagination, we just live out a colonizer's fantasy."
[05:19]

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4. Dream Work as a Tool of Divination

Dana elaborates on how dreams serve as a fundamental tool for divination, enabling individuals to break free from repetitive patterns and subconscious projections.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"Dreaming is the most sober thing that you can do because it helps you connect the dots and peel back layers that keep you projecting the past onto the present."
[09:38]

Shelah shares her personal experience with dream interpretation, highlighting its therapeutic and self-awareness benefits.

Shelah Marie:
"I have an active dreamer... serious daydreaming is integral to not living out a colonizer's fantasy."
[05:19]

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5. Free Will vs. Fate: Challenging Conventional Beliefs

A significant portion of the discussion centers on free will and fate. Dana presents her stance that individual free will is an illusion shaped by subconscious forces and systemic structures like capitalism, whiteness, and patriarchy.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"I don't believe in individual free will because our subconscious mind holds onto survival instincts that limit our capacity to change."
[18:26]

Shelah engages with this idea, contemplating the extent to which her actions are predetermined or influenced by external factors.

Shelah Marie:
"If I can't even... I need to plan based on these astrological insights. It gives me both hope and permission to act."
[35:27]

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6. Sidereal vs. Tropical Astrology: A Deeper Dive

The conversation transitions into the nuances of astrology, specifically the differences between sidereal and tropical astrology. Dana explains sidereal astrology's reliance on fixed star positions, contrasting it with the more commonly known tropical astrology tied to the equinoxes.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"Sidereal astrology calculates zodiac signs based on fixed stars, resulting in a significant shift from tropical astrology—about 24 degrees behind."
[40:56]

Shelah humorously grapples with the implications of her astrological sign shift, underscoring the personal impact of these differing systems.

Shelah Marie:
"I'm in Aries, but sidereal, I'm in Pisces. My entire identity is in Aries, now what?"
[44:00]

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7. Astrology's Influence on Politics and Power

Dana articulates the inseparable connection between astrology and politics, arguing that astrology is often employed by those in power to maintain their dominance.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"Astrology is a tool that can either liberate or oppress, depending on who wields it. Historically, rulers have used astrology to time their expansions and exert control."
[36:35]

Shelah highlights the historical context, noting prominent figures like Ronald Reagan and the Founding Fathers' interest in astrology, questioning society's dismissal of astrology as mere superstition.

Shelah Marie:
"Why are we sold astrology as nonsense when powerful people have used it throughout history?"
[37:27]

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8. The Two-Party System and Its Limitations

Both Shelah and Dana critique the American two-party system, asserting that it fails to offer substantive solutions, thereby preserving the status quo. Dana emphasizes that the Democratic Party primarily exists to counteract Trump without proposing meaningful alternatives.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"The Democratic Party's whole function is to preserve things the way they are, just reacting to Trump rather than offering substantive solutions."
[54:15]

Shelah concurs, arguing that regardless of which party is in power, systemic issues like capitalism, housing crises, and social injustices persist unabated.

---

9. The Power of Relationships in Liberation

Dana posits that meaningful political change cannot occur without fostering genuine relationships. She believes that revolution begins in the body through emotional connections and collective imagination.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"The revolution is an embodied emotional experience. Freedom begins in the imagination, and liberation happens when we feel and imagine together."
[71:10]

Shelah reinforces this by stressing the importance of centered personal experiences over superficial celebrations of Black excellence.

---

10. Critique of Black History Month and Celebrity Culture

In a poignant critique, Dana questions the focus on celebrity achievements during Black History Month, arguing that true liberation involves systemic changes rather than celebrating individual successes.

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"If Black History Month celebrates only celebrity accomplishments, it disregards the systemic issues like mass incarceration and lack of affordable housing."
[68:44]

Shelah echoes this sentiment, advocating for recognition of collective struggles over individual accolades.

---

11. Final Takeaways: Revolution in the Body and Collective Imagination

The episode culminates with Dana summarizing the core message:

Dana Lynn Knuckles:
"Revolution begins in the body. Freedom begins in the imagination. Liberation is what happens when we feel and imagine together."
[71:10]

Shelah emphasizes the need to prioritize emotional well-being and collective vision over reactive outrage, urging listeners to cultivate meaningful relationships and envision a more equitable reality.

Shelah Marie:
"Remember how you feel and do not fall for the outrage trap. Focus on building a collective vision instead."
[52:00]

---

Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Shelah Marie:
  "Imagination is such a core part of liberation. If we don't have an imagination, we just live out a colonizer's fantasy."
  [05:19]

• Dana Lynn Knuckles:
  "Divination is uncovering the patterns of time and life and experience. If we don't have an imagination, we just live out a colonizer's fantasy."
  [06:52]

• Dana Lynn Knuckles:
  "I don't believe in individual free will because our subconscious mind holds onto survival instincts that limit our capacity to change."
  [18:26]

• Dana Lynn Knuckles:
  "The revolution is an embodied emotional experience. Freedom begins in the imagination, and liberation happens when we feel and imagine together."
  [71:10]

---

Conclusion

Episode 23 of "UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE" offers a compelling exploration of how astrology intersects with political power and the illusion of free will. Through Dana Lynn Nuckolls' insightful analysis, listeners are encouraged to transcend individualistic narratives and embrace collective imagination and embodied revolution as pathways to genuine liberation. This conversation not only challenges conventional beliefs about free will and destiny but also underscores the necessity of fostering deep, meaningful relationships to enact lasting societal change.

For more transformative conversations and practical tools to enhance your well-being, subscribe to "UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE" and follow Dana Lynn Nuckolls at thepeoplesoracle.com and on social media @thepeoplesoracle.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Sheila Marie]

Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for black women, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Welcome back to another episode of Unruly with your girl. It's Sheila Marie. I have to be honest with you. Right now, we are living in a moment of deep uncertainty. Politically, socially, and I would argue, even spiritually. Like every. Every day, I wake up and more institutions are crumbling, and policies that directly impact black communities are being rolled back quietly, sometimes loudly. And so many of us are just feeling the weight of it all. We know that we need to organize, okay? We know that we need strategy. But where do we start? And how does real liberation actually. And what does real liberation actually look like under these circumstances? Today's guest who has is someone who has been offering clarity and insight on these questions for years. Dana Lynn Knuckles, also known as the People's Oracle. That is such an amazing name. She's a diviner, a writer, a teacher whose work bridges astrology and politics with liberation. She's known for her sharp political analysis, her deeply researched astrological forecasts, and her ability to name the forces shaping our reality in ways that makes people sit up and pay attention. I'm thinking of Ayan Lavon's out right now. Call a thing a thing, beloved. In this episode, we just go dive right into the current political moment, what it means for us, what we can learn from the past, and how we can learn to organize more effectively. In the moment. I am so excited to have this conversation, Dana. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Thank you so much for having me. I am just really excited to dive into some lovely conversation today, and I'm so glad to be here.

[Sheila Marie]

Listen, the honor is mine. And you sound so crispy and amazing. I just love it. I got audio hug over here. So I want to start with like, just random icebreaker questions. Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

So what is one widely held political belief that you just wish would disappear?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ooh, if we gonna get right into it.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, we gonna get right into it.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

We gonna get right into it.

[Sheila Marie]

That's what we do over here. Don't waste no time.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

The first thing that comes to mind is that the two party system in America actually represents two divergent interests that we should ch.

[Sheila Marie]

Hello, Is this thing on? Hello. We're gonna get more into that. Cause I, I, I have a question about that. Cause I was like, in researching you, I was like looking through some of your, your Instagram posts and stuff and I was like, this is an amazing point. So yes, I do agree with that. We're gonna talk about that more. And next icebreaker question is, what do you think our black American ancestors would be screaming at us right now?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ooh, that is so tough. You know, I, I think about this all the time because I love watching doc. Watched the recent one on the Great Migration on pbs, and I think it's a really challenging question to answer because the survival imperative of escaping terror in your day to day life really limits your capacity to like, see and imagine something other than just getting away from that. And so maybe our ancestors would look at us and see how the comparison between the terror they lived under just walking down the street, just trying to make a home and living for themselves post slavery. They would see the how far we've come and say, why aren't you imagining more for yourself?

[Sheila Marie]

Why aren't you imagining more for yourself? This just nails down the point. This has come up over and over again on my podcast is that imagination is such a core part of liberation. And I personally, I am a dreamer. I love to imagine. I was the kid in school who got in trouble for daydreaming. And I think our ability, even in my meditation practice, I have a thing called serious daydreaming because I think our ability to imagine things outside of ourselves is integral. And if we don't have an imagination, we just live out a colonizer's fantasy. That's what I think. So I agree with you.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. And Solange says I Saw things I imagined.

[Sheila Marie]

I love Solange. I had the chance to see Solange in like a very small performance in a museum once, and it definitely changed my brain chemistry. I'm never the same after that. She's such a gift. I love her. Let's talk about you and your gifts. I want to talk about divination. Can you break it down for me? Like, I'm five? What is divination?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Divination is uncovering the patterns of time and life and experience, period. There is a pattern of time, there is a pattern of experience, there is a pattern of life. And uncovering that pattern is divination, the idea that everything is random. I don't believe that. Something that has really informed my leaning into my gifts of dreaming and oracles and divination is that the Bible says there's a time and a season for all things. And then it goes to list down all. All of these times and seasons for death, for life, for birth, for harvest, for loss, for gain, all of these things. And in my mind I felt like, okay, if it's a time and season for all things, that's not. Shouldn't be a mystery. It shouldn't be like this, oh, what season is it? I don't know, It's. Let me. Right? No. There are patterns and of our experience, there are patterns in time in our lives, and there are patterns in the planet. And in uncovering those patterns, we can make sense of our experience. Experiences in a ways that leads to liberation.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow, that really reframed a lot for me because I'm like, yeah, if you're always in a state of shock and not knowing what's coming next, how can you plan for yourself for the long term? How do we. How do we get into this pattern recognition? How do we learn to. How do we learn the patterns? Where are the patterns? How do I find them? How do I know them?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Well, I think, you know, from my perspective, obviously I use oracles as tools of divination. These have used symbols. But I think the thing that is most accessible for everyone is dreams. Right. Dreaming for me is divination. Because dreaming is the way that our subconscious overcomes our habit or our just survival way of projecting onto reality what we already know and believe to be true.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow, you speak. What is the word I want to say? You have such a dense way of speaking. Like you. I love that you use all your words very economically and every time you say something, I have to stop and think about it. It's such a gift. It's such. I really Admire that.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

So, dream work. So you do a lot of dream work?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. Even in my personal spiritual practice, as well as with clients, our dreams are trying to snap us out of the way that we get stuck in repetitive patterns. They're trying to snap us out of continually projecting the past onto the present and future.

[Sheila Marie]

Well, what would you say to the person that's like, my dreams are just me floating on a banana in the middle of the ocean, and then I'm flying, and then I feel like they don't have any cohesiveness or they don't make sense, or people who are like, I don't dream. I know a lot of people say they don't even dream. Oh, sorry. Let me clarify. Are we talking about dreaming while we're sleeping, or is this a different practice?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yes. Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

All right.

[Sheila Marie]

Because there could be a lot of ways. All right.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. I think first for the people who don't dream, they need to make sure that they are sleeping well.

[Sheila Marie]

Does everybody dream?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I think so eventually. Right. But I think that many people are not sleeping well enough to dream. I think many people are dependent on substances. I know a lot of people who do not dream when they're consuming cannabis, caffeine, alcohol, sugar. Those things definitely can impact your capacity to dream. There's a way that people perceive dreaming as something that is, like, otherworldly or something that is related to being under the influence. But dreaming is the most sober thing that you can do.

[Sheila Marie]

Really?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely.

[Sheila Marie]

In what way?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Because dreaming, like I said, dreaming. The function of dreams, as I understand it, is to disrupt the way that we're constantly projecting everything that we've been through in the past onto our present and future, such that we cannot see ourselves as we are, we cannot see each other and people we love as they are, and we cannot see this world as it is when you're constantly projecting your traumas or the way people have treated you in the past or the experiences that have shaped your past environment onto the present that's not sober, that's under the influence of the past. And so dreams are like, I'm trying to help you connect the dots. I'm trying to peel back whatever that layer of sight is that keeps you projecting the past onto the present so that you can see things as they really are. That's what sobriety is, to be able to see things as they really are, including yourself.

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[Sheila Marie]

So how does the work while dreaming translate to your waking life?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So everyone has their own relationship with dream symbols. There are some symbols that are absolutely universal, that come from our ancestral inheritance, that come from what things mean and what the value of them are in our broader culture. But dreams are really meant to exist in a sequence, right? You can have one big dream, but even if you have one big dream that's like, oh my God, what is this dream? It's often gonna have bits and pieces of things from your waking life. It's going to have bits and pieces of things from your past. It's going to have people from your waking life and past. And so it's. I think it's more like a meditative practice. It's not like, oh, I had a dream. What does that mean? It's like, oh, I had a dream. How do I feel about that? Yeah, oh, I had a dream. What happened that day that I had that dream that might help me make sense of that dream in like a time specific way.

[Sheila Marie]

And so where would you. What advice would you give somebody who's like, starting from the beginning? Like, I don't know about dreams that much. I don't even dream. And then I don't know, where do I start if I want to start using dreaming as a divination tool? Is that right? That's what.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I think that dream journals are great, but something that I'll probably be repeating a lot today in various permutations. How you feel is the most important thing. How does the dream make you feel? Because that's the key. How does it make you feel? Right? Is it shame? Is it terror? What is it? I don't know.

[Sheila Marie]

This is so funny because I actually have an active. I've always been an active dreamer so much that I got into dream. What is it called when you interpret? Is it interpretation? Yeah, dream interpretation. In high school, I started getting into it because I just was like, what the heck is going on? I felt like. I felt like at that time, I had one life when I was awake and another life when I was asleep because it was so much going on. And I really. I started. This was way back before social media and all that. I don't even think. Did we have. No. We might have had. Girl, we might have had Folk. Let's see. We might have had Black Planet.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I was on there.

[Sheila Marie]

Might have had MySpace. You feel me? Definitely had AOL chat.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right? Aim. Yahoo chat. Yahoo. Messenger.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. I don't even know where I found this random message board of ladies who would just. They were so cool. They would help you break down your dreams and from. They would always talk about how you feel. They would always say, like, there's no universal. For the most part, there's no universal dream symbols. Like, to the point where I got so good at it. All of my friends and my sisters and stuff, when they have dreams, they always do. Yeah. And I'm like, well, a snake doesn't just mean terror. Like, it depends on your relationship. Did you have an experience with snakes?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

Do you. Does snake mean sexy to you? I don't know. I don't know. But it's. It starts with, how did you feel about everything that happened in your dream? So I think it's. You're actually re reminding me that I even knew all of this as you're talking, but I would remember to wake up and be like, what was the feeling that I woke up with? And then put it in context with the dream. And then put the dream in context with your life. Yes, but what about people? Can you make yourself dream? Like, can you will a dream?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You know, I think for me, over the past few years, as my, like, ancestral veneration practice has deepened, I find that dreams are a way that I can communicate with my ancestors. So I won't say that I can will like a specific scenario in the dreams, but I've definitely been like, all right, I feel like this is something that you want me to do. Or I feel like this is something that you're trying to communicate with me. And I'll ask a question, and sure enough, that night in my dreams, somehow I'll get the answer. I'll get clarity. I think dreams are not just something that's happening to us. Dreams are something that we can participate in, I think, specifically through curiosity.

[Sheila Marie]

And for those who are not familiar, can you tell us what ancestral veneration is?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ancestral veneration is just honoring the people that you've come from, from. And the way that they show up in you, the way that they show up in your life. And keeping their memory alive as a way to access their wisdom, their guidance, and all of the things that they may know or have done that we might need at this time.

[Sheila Marie]

And in terms of divination. So divination is. Let me make sure I say it right or not right, but I want to make sure that I'm framing it in the way you said it. So divination is really looking at patterns to get a certain insight or knowledge. And so divination can happen. You can divine. Is that right? Okay, you can define, like tarot. Right. Like astrology. So there's many different ways of doing it. So dreaming is one way of. One tool of divination.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yes, yes.

[Sheila Marie]

Got it. And so do you. In your perspective, do you think divination is telling the future or creating it?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ooh, Sheila. Oh, man. Okay, I'm probably about to say something. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Sheila Marie]

No, please say it.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Okay, I. I'm so on the. I'm not on the fence, but I have, like, maybe an unpopular opinion about this idea of creating the future. Two things. I really hope I answer your question, but two things. One is in terms of creating our future, I think that our power lies not in individually creating our individual future, but collectively creating our collective future. I don't think I have the power to individually create my future. I think that my power lies in the collective of us creating it together. Right.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

And then the second piece is, I think where my personal power lies is in what I focus my attention on. So me focusing my attention and shifting how I might think about or see things. I don't think that that's necessarily creating my future or changing my future. It's changing me.

[Sheila Marie]

Keep going.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I'm with you.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm with you.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right. Like changing the. I think unpopular for me. I just think the future is what it is.

[Sheila Marie]

So how about fate and free will?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I don't believe in free will.

[Sheila Marie]

You don't believe in free will?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

No, I don't.

[Sheila Marie]

So free will does not exist.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I don't believe in individual free will, and I'm tell you why. Because our subconscious minds hold all the things that have been dangerous to our survival to know and remember. The subconscious is so powerful that we're sitting in here on this podcast today. And I know that there are people listening who cannot stop habits, who cannot stop ending up in the same relationship over and over and over again, who cannot stop having the same conflicts and difficulties, right? They can't help it. They want to change. They want to be different. And so if they can just create their own reality, then they should just be able to create their own reality, right? But there's clearly something that is making it so hard for them to change. It's making it so hard for them to create the life and future that they want. And I think it's two things. One, it's the subconscious mind. Again, our subconscious mind is, is a protective force. It's like, hey, this really bad thing happened to you and if you think about it all the time, you're not gonna be able to function. So we just gonna put it back there, right? And people have kind of disruptive relationships with that sometimes that it comes up and impacts and affects their life and their choices and their emotions and their habits when they're not even intending for it to. But I think the other thing that is most important and I think relative relevant to the topic today is that there is such a thing as capitalism, as whiteness and as patriarchy that are forces outside of our individual control. And the only way those things are going to change, the only way we are going to imagine and create a reality that is not those things is together. Choo choo choo choo.

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[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

How I'm glad you asked. So I like to come up with these sayings. I think you called it like the economy of my words. I like to make em, you know, small.

[Sheila Marie]

So you're very economical. You don't waste them.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So one of the sayings is revolution begins in the body. The revolution is an embodied emotional experience. Right? That's what that means. Freedom begins in the imagination, right? Freedom is a personal thing. How do I think beyond my present circumstances? Right. Liberation though, is a collective thing and it can only happen. It's a group project. It only happens when we feel together and we imagine together. So when we talk about liberation and we talk about creating our future, if I'm not working collectively, I can't individually get free from the oppression of capitalism where someone else is deciding how much my labor is worth. I cannot individually liberate myself from that. That's A group project. I can get a bigger salary. I can get my dream job. I can build a business, which I've done. And that is a personal type of freedom for me because I'm imagining myself into circumstances that are different than my past. But that's not liberation, because capitalism is still oppressing me. I'm going to lose my housing if I get too sick, right? So liberation is a group project. I can hope to change my personal circumstances, but if I want to create a new reality, I need to do that with other people.

[Sheila Marie]

How do we create, like a collective new reality? That is the part that I find so difficult because if we're engaging in our own imagination and our own dreams, maybe liberation for me looks different than it does for you. And how do we all, you know, without us all being on the same page, how does this. How does it transition from an individual project to liberation being a group project?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

That's where the embodied revolution comes in. Gil Scott Heron said, the revolution will not be televised because it's not a performance. Right? Revolution begins with an emotion. If you think of something about the march on Selma, what was the primary emotion that drove them to act together? It was dissatisfaction. It was humiliation, right? That dissatisfaction with the way that things were and the humiliation that all of them were experiencing as they were told that they can't ride this bus or sit in this area or they can't vote, Right? It's. It's being able to collectively tap into the same feeling. And the reason why this is so important is because if you look around, you can really see that so much of media, so much of news, so much of politicians is trying to tell you how to feel. This is who you should be upset with. This is who is causing your problems. This is why eggs are expensive. This is why you can't afford housing. And it's all pointing fingers at people who are suffering from the same thing that you are.

[Sheila Marie]

A hundred percent, right? A hundred percent.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So the embodied revolution is about one being able to tap into how you personally really feel about your material circumstances. Don't look at nobody else. Don't point outwards. It's trans people. It's black people. It's this. No, it's not at all.

[Sheila Marie]

And here too, I want to cite the work of Resma Manakim in his book My Grandmother's Hands. And he talks about racism is an experience in the body. And I love his book. His book, to me, instead of recommending the Body Keeps the Score, I recommend. My therapist recommended My Grandmother's Hands and I also am gonna make that recommendation. And he has this one part in the book where he's like, yeah, what is racism? Okay, so you do this meditation where you imagine a person that's he uses the term white bodied individuals. Cause he thinks whiteness is expressed through the body. And so imagine a black person, a black bodied individual six feet away from you. How do you feel? Three feet away from you? And then do the same for a white bodied. And when I was doing the meditations, I realized, ooh, I felt so uncomfortable. Like it is a very somatic experience. So I love the reminder, which this podcast does often, that divine intelligence happens through the body. Not only through our mind, our cognitive, our intellectual ability to think through something. But like how do you actually feel about a thing? And I think this is going to be important for us moving forward because as we do seek liberation and we, you know, we're under this chaotic precedent right now and thinking about how things are going to change for us when we want to imagine like what would good look like? What the hell did. I just lost my train of thought like in the middle. The thought just flew out of my head.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Vanished out of your head, it said.

[Sheila Marie]

Anyway, we're gonna need our. We're gonna need to know how we feel. We're gonna need to know what feels good to us.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

We need to be able to feel.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, number one. Number one. So I actually wanna ask you, I wanna back up really quick and ask you one more question about fate.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

Because I know that this is the big thing. So if so you believe in fate, right? So then there is no free will, right? That's what you make sure.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I'm not gonna say that I believe in fate. Cause I'm not really sure what that word means, you know. But I can say that I don't believe in individual free will in the way that people understand it. For me, free will, if there is such a thing, is sometimes having the ability to shift your attention. I think it's something you can cultivate, the ability to shift your attention.

[Sheila Marie]

So then do you, do you like. So when I was born, do you feel like everything? Like I was already gonna do this podcast, it didn't matter what I did, I'm still gonna end up here.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I don't mean to be evasive, but.

[Sheila Marie]

No, no, it's okay. And I just ask questions, I don't know the answers. I'm just daydreaming with you. We're just circuit. There's no right or wrong answer. I love this as a thought Experiment. And a big part of this podcast is making room for these types of conversations where I think in podcasts, everybody has to know. Everybody has. Like, sometimes we need the space to be like, you know what? I gotta think about that. I have to think. And this is actually pointing to exactly what you're saying, because you're not just gonna give me an answer to give me an answer. You're checking in with your own intelligence to see exactly what do you think about the thing. And if I don't know how I feel and think about the thing, I might not be able to give you an answer right now, which is absolutely give. I love this. If you're listening, this is giving you deeper permission to do the same. Hey, you know what I mean? That's how I feel. Because I was wondering about the fate thing and the free will aspect because I think I live so much in the. You can quantum space that there are multiple realities. Like, I have in one reality not done this podcast with you, never talked to you in another reality. Maybe we're best friends. Another reality. We published a book together. Another reality. We hate each other. I think that they're all happening. So I think there's something here. I haven't really nailed down how I think about this either, but I am going to. All right, guys. And if you are listening to this and you have deeper ideas, please interact with us. Leave me a chat, write me a dm, you know what I'm saying, and just let me know your thoughts, because this is a conversation.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I do have a thought that I want to have a answer in quotations.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So, and this goes back to my work as an astrologer and how I even understand a birth chart. Honestly, being an astrologer is what challenged my indoctrination. This is such heavy language, but it's just really how I feel. I call it the. It's a cult of free will that. That your life circumstances, your life and your death are solely in your hands. If you die, you did it. If you live, you did it. If you win, you did it. If you lose, you did it. If. If somebody hurt you, you did it. Right? Like, if we follow that thought to its logical conclusion. And I know that there are going to be some people who like, well, there's also the law of this and there the law of that. And it's like, that's cool. I respect everybody's right to have their own opinion about this, but this is what I wanted to say. I said that my work as an astrologer is what challenged that belief for me, because now, having read thousands of charts, I understand a birth chart to be depicting the environment that you had to survive. Right. And in surviving that environment, you've acquired a specific set of tools, and there are certain kinds of things that you know how to do, and those tools are what you needed to survive that environment. That's why we're different. That's why you and your partner are different. You survived a different environment than he did, so he had to figure out how to survive that. You had to figure out how to survive this. And hopefully you come together and those means of survival don't conflict with each other enough that y'all can't co. Occ. You know, occupy the same space. Does that make sense?

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. So how does this affect the way that you move through life?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Can you ask that in a different way?

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. So if there's a part of you who knows, you know astrology very well. I'm sure you're very familiar with your chart and you've read thousands of charts. So to a degree, you're like, yeah, a lot of this is kind of laid out. Does this make life easier for you in a certain way?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I think it makes life easier and harder because I feel like everybody else is walking around not knowing, and I'm, like, burdened with this knowledge and insight that I can't unsee and I can't unknow. But it makes life easier because going back to what I mentioned before, there really is a time and a season for all things. Just like spring is going to be here soon, and it's nothing that I can do to force spring to come any quicker. I might feel frustration because I'm tired of being cold, but the reliability of the pattern of seasons is comforting to me. I've personally been in a season of extreme solitude, but I know that it's going to end soon. And so, rather than spending my time and energy resisting the solitude, my mindset is, how can I make the best use of this solitude? What is its purpose for me? What do I need to get from it? So there is a way that it's really comforting to me. It allows me to have grace and patience with other people because I see their birth chart and I understand why they are the way that they are. It doesn't mean that I excuse it and allow them to treat me any kind of way. Sometimes it means, ooh, you know what? I can't even deal with that. Right. But at the same time, it is. It's incredibly comforting for me, and it's comforting for my clients. It makes them feel like they're not crazy.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. I recently had my chart read. Well, I've had my chart read a bunch of times.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I bet you have. I know you're into it.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, yeah. But I was asking for a relationship question. And when I say she broke it down to the point where she's like, yes, the same thing that you guys are going through in this December and November. If I can't even. I wish I could re. I wish I could replicate what she said. It was so detailed. I see here your chiron is squaring this. Your da, da, da, da. She was going in and saying, like, you will be. You guys will have the same problem, but you're gonna make like. But intenser if you don't do XYZ.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right now @ this time.

[Sheila Marie]

Exactly right. And I was like, wow. And then. So I think it's. It's actually now. I know now this is me. I'm in February. I know that if certain things aren't addressed in November, I'm going to be very upset with my husband. There's certain things that we have to shift in our dynamic. It just is what it is. We've been together almost 10 years, and so I feel like instead of it feeling like a doom thing, it actually gave me a lot of permission and it actually gave me a lot of hope because I know I'm like. I know that I trust my ability to do the things. And regardless or not, I know I'm gonna be fine regardless.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You know what I'm saying you is.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm gonna do the things. If I even, I guess. Is this what you're talking about? If I do the things, then in November, it'll be easier for me. And if I don't, it'll be harder for me. But then I'll make a choice.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I could go with that. I could go with that. I could go with that. Sometimes it's that way. Sometimes it's. Sometimes it's stuff you really can't control, you know?

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Your pet Diana.

[Sheila Marie]

You can't control interacting with someone else's chart. And their chart is their chart. And they think. Absolutely. So I wanna talk about the political. For politics. Do you believe that there's a connection between the astrological and the political?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. Whether or not it is acknowledged, it absolutely is a connection. I think the political is everything. I understand the political to be about power. Who has power, who gets power, who has a Right to power. What will they do with it? What do they have a right to do with it? That's in every relationship, that's in every. That's in the school classroom. That's when I walk down the street. It's everything. So absolutely, absolutely. Astrology and the political are deeply connected.

[Sheila Marie]

You know what I think is interesting? I think it's interesting that astrology is often dismissed as like superstition or woo woo stuff in the back of a magazine. But if you look at history and you're speaking to patterns, people in power pay attention to astrology. Ronald Reagan's White House, specifically, his wife was very invested in astrology. And they would consult astrologers for all their major decisions. Billionaire investors track lunar cycles for market trends and the Vatican has a very advanced observatory. And even us in the United States goes back to the founding fathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson all had interest in astrology. So my question is, if the most powerful people in all of these high positions are using astrology, why are we sold it as just nonsense sense?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Oh, I think that's such a really interesting question because what you're really talking about is people who already have the upper hand in the economic order and in the social order using astrology to maintain that upper hand. Right. Remember, politics is about power. So how I make you feel about something with my upper hand is me exercising my power over you. I know that a lot of people feel like, oh, like Beyonce must have an astrologer and da da da. And I don't really think that's true. She might, she really might. I don't think she needs one though. Right? Once you get enough money, you don't need astrology, you don't need an astrologer. You already got the money. Do you know what I mean? The thing that people are so money.

[Sheila Marie]

Speak more to that.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Meaning that like people look at Beyonce's success and the timing of her success and how well her music does and how well her projects do, and they look at that and assume that there is some spiritual cause to her success. There might be. There absolutely might be. But I don't think that that's a prerequisite. This is getting back to your statement about like, people think that astrology is like super woo woo. And people think that that type of success and power is woo woo. Like you had to have, you've had. There has to be something. Yeah, you got a voodoo doll or something like that. It's just like, I mean, she might have, but the girl is pretty talented.

[Sheila Marie]

Like, under a capitalist society, if you have money, that is the woo woo. That is the magic. Yes, okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Sheila Marie]

You're picking up what you're putting down, sister.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You are right. But this is to your question of like, or this conversation about, like, the function of astrology as it pertains to liberation. Right. Versus the function of astrology. I got this book back here. Which one is it? I don't even know where my astrological side. The astrological. The astrological works of Theophilus Edessa. He was an astrologer to Muslim caliphates, right? And these Muslim caliphates were expanding their empires. They were like, this land is mine. And he helped them time their battles. So there's all of these rules in this book about, okay, when do you go expand to the west? All right? When do you go expand to the east? When do you hold back? When you send the troops in? Right. And the idea, this really is getting to this question of astrology and the political, this idea that astrology is a neutral thing. It's not neutral. The politics, the morals, the values, but more specifically the politics of the person using it are always informing the practice. 10 times out of 10.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. Because it's a tool. Like, is that right? Do you consider it like a tool?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I think it's a tool. I think it's neutral. I think it's totally neutral.

[Sheila Marie]

And you can use a tool to build or destroy?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. Which is why I could use it as a tool of liberation. And Theophilus of Edessa can use it to help him take somebody else's land.

[Sheila Marie]

Woo. Now you practice sidereal astrology, right?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I do.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, can you tell us how is this different, this form of astrology, different from popular ideas about astrology?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Absolutely. So specifically, I practice divination for liberation, sidereal astrology. This is the framework I've created. There's two kind of, like, discrepancies or points of contention. One is how we calculate the zodiac. So there's tropical astrology, which is the type of astrology most people are familiar with. And then there's sidereal. The difference between these two boils down to where and when do we begin to count the zodiac? Where is zero aries? How do we know when to start the zodiac? Tropical says that 0 Aries corresponds with the spring equinox in the northern hemisphere. Okay? So on the first day of spring, the moment that the sun reaches that point, that is 0 Aries. Okay. But in the northern hemisphere, for sidereal, the system that, or the calculation of the Zodiac that I use, the 0 Aries point is calculated in relationship to the position of a fixed star. Okay? So when the sun reaches exactly 180 degrees oppose the fixed star Spica, that is where 0 degrees Aries is. So now those two things used to be the same. There used to be no measurable difference between the vernal equinox in the northern hemisphere and the sun opposing the fixed star Spica. As a matter of fact, there are cultures where the way that they calculated the beginning of spring was they saw that fixed star at a specific position. Ah, is spring. Right. So now because of what we know as the precession of the equinoxes, right. We're talking about the equinox. That zero Aries point in sidereal is about 24 degrees behind where it is in tropical. And I'm gonna add a little bonus in here for you. Everybody's talking about the age of Aquarius. The age of Aquarius is a phenomenon that is calculated based on the precession of the equinoxes. Meaning when that 0 Aries point in sidereal reaches 29 degrees Aquarius in tropical, that is when we'll be in the age of Aquarius. We're not there yet.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, well, according to sidereal astrology, when will we get there?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It's not sidereal, it's just. It's astronomy.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, astronomy.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right. Like. Cause we're literally calculating the position of a fixed star. Right? We're calculating where? How? Ugh. I'm trying not to get too deep into the weeds more. To answer your question, we still got like 500 years before we're in the age.

[Sheila Marie]

No way.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

No way.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

An astrological age is like 2,500 years or something like that.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, man. I'm over here singing Age of Aquarius. I'm over here thinking, yeah, power to the people. You telling me ain't no people for 500 years.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

But this is the thing though, Sheila. Right? This is. This is. Is what I would personally call a misuse of astrology.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Because not on your behalf. I think it's just the ether and pop culture. Right.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

This idea that, ah, we're gonna get free when it's the age of Aquarius. No, we're gonna get free when we all imagine and feel together. Now, if you wanna wait 500 years to do that, then you absolutely can.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, G. I'm seeing how all of these things conflate now.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. So does that mean. So I am in popular astrology. Well, tropical astrology. I'M in Aries, but sidereal, I'm in Pisces. I just found this out. I'm like, now what do I do with this information? My entire identity is in Aries.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

But look at you. Listen to everything that you've shared.

[Sheila Marie]

Am I very Pisces?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You literally talked about. You started talking about how you've been a dreamer ever since you were a child.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh my gosh.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I'm Pisces. You've talked about.

[Sheila Marie]

I hereby speak to all the Pisces committee. I want to apologize for all the Pisces slander that I have given over the years. Please accept me. I come in peace.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Okay, I'm gonna break your brain for like two seconds. I'm gonna break your brain in my system. Oh, that's the other piece. The other discrepancy between how I practice astrology and how everybody else does, to be quite honest, is that I don't understand. They don't mean the same thing. So Pisces, how you understand it doesn't mean the same thing in my system. You can tell by the way that I speak that when I communicate, I want there to be no confusion.

[Sheila Marie]

Correct.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I don't like a lot of filler words. I want to. I'm a direct communicator. I want to say exactly what I mean. And as someone who practiced tropical for seven years, the way that that system is framed is too much filler for me because I was, I left feeling like, okay, but what is a sign like for you? You're into astrology. If I ask you define what is a zodiac sign, what would you say?

[Sheila Marie]

A zodiac sign is a set of characteristics depending on when you were born.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right. And right. That's what most people would say, which I personally think is incredibly reductive. Okay, Right.

[Sheila Marie]

Tell me more.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I understand a zodiac sign as an experience.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So for example, if you have your sun in sidereal Pisces, what that's really saying is that whatever the sun represents, the experience and environment that that thing developed in was Pisces. And then we would talk about, okay, then what's the sun? Okay, then, what is the experience of Pisces?

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[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Signs are telling you about the environment that you survived in. Divination for liberation.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm not gonna hold you. I have not felt this, this slow in a long time.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I'mma give you the I. I see your brain like you.

[Sheila Marie]

Like my brain is moving. Stop trying to keep up.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I know, but you know what? You gonna listen back and it's gonna make sense. Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It's gonna make sense.

[Sheila Marie]

This is really expanding my ideas around astrology in ways that are gonna take a minute. Wow.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Because I want you to know, why do you have those characteristics?

[Sheila Marie]

Right.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Why our society is constantly telling you who you are. It's prescribing to you who you should be. Right. And then you gotta live into that, and you gotta live up to that. I want to know why are you this way? What happened? That's what I bring to astrology.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. It's almost like a little therapy in there mixed with, like, self work, maybe inner child stuff.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It seems like it's absolutely.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah. It's definitely pulling from many intelligences. I love that. Back to politics. Just one second. So with all of that said, is the United States in its Pluto return?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I think so. I don't. Y'all. I really am just so off the beaten path. I don't even pay attention to Pluto. I don't.

[Sheila Marie]

Well, what did Pluto do to you? Jk Don't.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right? I'm not even gonna answer that. Pluto ain't do nothing to me. God bless the Pluto lovers. Respect to the Pluto lovers. No shade on your way. I love it for you. I do, I do. It's just not my thing, you know?

[Sheila Marie]

I feel that. So what's one thing that you feel like politically people should be paying attention to right now and are not paying attention to?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

They should be paying attention to how they feel. I cannot repeat this enough. I'd put. There's a post on my Instagram that I posted, like, the day that the Cheeto head got inaugurated for a second time. And I said, look, there are about to be so many crises.

[Sheila Marie]

So many.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

There are going to be so much breaking news. There are going to be so many people shaming you for not knowing what is happening, for not paying attention, for not feeling outraged enough. And the word that I offered was this. Your head is gonna spin right off your neck.

[Sheila Marie]

My mom used to say that.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Really? Yeah, it is. If you feel like your Political agency solely relies on your ability to pay attention to all the bad things that are happening.

[Sheila Marie]

Correct.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

That's. That's how we. That. That is what political awareness and activism is for most people. Can I pay attention? Pay attention? You not paying attention? Did you see? Did you know? See? You should be paying attention.

[Sheila Marie]

And it's y'all out here watching this Netflix, right? And that's why you ain't paying attention. Turn off the tv. Cause the TV is on my. It's all the time. It's on, right?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Everywhere I go, it's a tv. So now what? Right? But in that same vein, I really think that this moment, this path that's available to us is less about I need to know all of the things and more about how do I feel about the material circumstances of my life? Ashley Blaine Featherson.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. Say that again.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

How do I feel about the material circumstances of my life? This is the test that I always ask people. You are free when you can go to bed anytime you are sleepy. Wow.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm not free.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

None of us are. Yeah, even billionaires aren't free because they too busy obsessing about stealing.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. You know what, too? I think you're. You are absolutely right. And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, yes, knowing how you feel in the body is going to be our key for moving forward. Because this administration in particular, particular is very flimsy. It doesn't have anything to stand on. There's no real connectivity. There's no real collective vision. The thing that they have is outrage as a currency. And I preach that when I see it. I'm like, you're not gonna get my outrage because my outrage is like gasoline for your tank. And you'll see that in the beginning of the first week or so that. That Trump was in office, all of the executive orders, which I think a lot of them he knew were not gonna go through anyway, they're already getting rejected. The point is to make you feel overwhelmed and outraged. Even Trump just posted yesterday an AI video of a resort being built in Gaza, and him and Elon Musk, like, frolicking with Arab, scantily clad Arab women. It's disgusting. It's gross. It's disgusting from any account. It's horrendous coming from a presidential account. Posting it on his own account. Why? So we can get outraged? He knows it's that. So I think the more that we can reserve our frequency, our emotion, our energy on building that collective vision and stop giving it away to these greedy Energy vampires. I think the better we're going to be. So I encourage all of us to remember how we feel, as Dana's told us, and just do not fall for the outrage trap because it's gonna get worse and worse. Worse outrage out. And then they want us to get mad and then they want us to react and then go do some stuff in the street, go do whatever so that they can do what they always wanted to do anyway. And our outrage is that permission. So. No, no, no. Now let's revisit what you said about the Democratic Party.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ooh, you read my mind.

[Sheila Marie]

And you know, several times this happened. You've already moved to the next thing I was gonna say. I love it. I love my community. Yeah, man, I do. I love it. I love doing this podcast. It's literally the light of my life.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I love it for you. I love.

[Sheila Marie]

You said the Democratic Party only exists to preserve the status quo of a two party system. Tell me more about this.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Oh, man, you. This is just totally the perfect segue because you talked about how the Trump administration and all of the people who vibe with that thrive off of our outrage. And I think what's really happening here is that we get so, so obsessed with being offended. We get fixated on, right? Like we're clutching our pearls and it's like. And, and they're like the little four year old in the classroom that's like, boo, boo, boo, boo, dookie. Like they're saying all of this stuff, right? Like they're what it is, right? They're saying and doing all of the stuff that they know is going to offend and it's bad and it's uncouth, right? And then you get the exact reaction you want. You get a rise out of it. And I think what really hit home for me with this in terms of the Democratic Party existing to preserve the status quo, is that the Democratic Party's whole platform was I am not Trump. Oh, I hated it.

[Sheila Marie]

I hated it. I thought that was such a weak ass strategy.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It was weak as hell. Can you tell me about what you are, though?

[Sheila Marie]

What are you going to do?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

And. But this is how you know that their whole function is to preserve things the way that they are. Because now the way that they frame it is the alternative is so bad. I just want this normalcy, when in fact the normalcy is we in year five of COVID right? The normalcy is school shootings. The normalcy is unaffordable housing. Yes. We will give $25,000 to people who Wanna buy a house. Like, if you don't get out of my face with that, like, I don't wanna buy a house. I just wanna be able to afford to live. Like, do you know what I mean? I just wanna be able to aff.

[Sheila Marie]

BlackRock and Vanguard from buying up all the single family homes.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Sister.

[Sheila Marie]

Can we have some legislation around that? Can we have some data protection laws?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Can we have exactly that? Right? So this way that, that the Democratic Party does not actually offer a substantive set of solutions to the things that are actually plaguing us, is doing the exact same thing that Trump is, which is capitalizing on our outrage against Trump. We're so offended and it's so bad. And Project 2025. And yes, that is all real and it's all happening and it's terrible and it's fucking people's shit up, up. However, comma, if we don't have an alternative, all we are doing is clutching our pearls and saying, oh my God, Trump is so offensive. How dare he do this? He can't do that. That's against the law. He doing it now what? Now what?

[Sheila Marie]

I argue and this might be an unpopular opinion.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Oh, I love it.

[Sheila Marie]

Please, y'all just, just please. They're gonna cuss me out. I know, but I personally think that regardless of if Kamala won or Trump won, we were always gonna end up here. Maybe Kamala would have just had like a black a BLM sticker on it and maybe you preaching that thing, it just would have been slower. Maybe a little bit slyer. Not as quickly. I don't think it would have been with her laugh. My supposed to be having a good time.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You hear me? She do. She is not playing by her laughing. I'm a laugh today, tomorrow and yesterday. Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

Period. I don't think this would have happened under her administration. Absolutely. But I just think it would have been slower. Would have been slower. But this was the direction we were always going to go in anyway. Because of exactly what you said of the stagnancy of these two parties. They don't really offer anything substantiative or substantive.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

I don't know if that's substantive, substantial.

[Sheila Marie]

So there it is. You smart girl. And you know, so that's that. But I, I. Yes, I, I just. Yeah, that's what I'm going to say. I'm going to stop there before people eat me up.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Girl, let them eat. They hungry.

[Sheila Marie]

They'll eat anyway. Right? Let's talk about solutions. Let's end this on a positive note, okay? Or, or Maybe a hopeful note.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You should be.

[Sheila Marie]

So a lot of us are talking about boycotting now. We're talking about or organizing. But how do we actually get there? What do you think would be the most effective use of our energy in terms of organizing or moving towards a reality that's more equitable, that's more humane, that's more just.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

We are not going to get anywhere without relationships. Politics is not a set of. Only a set of ideas that you hold in your head about what you want to do with your own power. Your politics are. How do you relate to your own body and your own needs? How do you relate to your neighbor? Relationship is the only valuable currency that actually exists, Right? Money is just a way that we buy a relationship.

[Sheila Marie]

Hmm.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right. If I want to be rich, it's because I want to be able to buy relationships. I want to buy the cleaning lady, I want to buy the person to drive me around. I want to buy this first class plane ticket, right? I want access to the labor of people without actually having to have a relationship with them. Right? So this is why I'm always coming back to the fact that revolution begins in the body. And specifically in 2025, 2026, 27. This idea that the revolution is embodied. It. I always go back to the moment that the UnitedHealthcare CEO was murdered. That happened when Mars stationed retrograde in cancer. And what I wrote about that is, ooh, now my brain. Now my thought just flew out of my brain. Hold on.

[Sheila Marie]

Thoughts are flying.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

This is why I be writing stuff down. Because then I don't have to remember it. I can actually read it. Hold on.

[Sheila Marie]

I know it's hard to remember.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

What did I write? Oh, yeah. Being led by the need to be taken care of. I think I just pressed something by accident. Being led by the need to be taken care of. This is something, this particular thing is something that we have such a contentious relationship, we are shamed to no end for needing to be taken care of. But in that moment, it was like this cacophony of people. Like, I needed care and I didn't get the care that I needed. I am entitled to care and I didn't get the care that I needed. I think that was such a watershed moment in our history. I think we kind of crossed a Rubicon because so much of how we are emotionally manipulated is to be shamed for having basic human needs. Correct? This is why the revolution begins in the body. If you cannot sleep when you are tired, you are not free. I don't care how Much money is in your bank account. I don't care what your job title is. I don't care how many Grammys you have. If you cannot sleep when you are tired, you are not free. Your ability to care for yourself is held hostage by somebody else. So I'm not one of those people that's gonna say the revolution is rest. Cause I don't necessarily believe that. I mean, again, I love it for the people who love it. It's just not my thing. But why if the revolution is not somebody, something everybody can do is not a revolution, right? Like the single mother who's working five jobs, you telling her the revolution is in rest and she go to sleep and she on the street. That's a whole other conversation that I actually thought we were kind of gonna kind of get to today, but we didn't. Just about like self care and how that is also like go for it.

[Sheila Marie]

Is there something you wanna share? Let's get it.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yeah, like let's go. There are so many sayings, like being black is revolutionary in and of itself. Rest is revolutionary. And it's like, girl, I was actually.

[Sheila Marie]

Going to quote that earlier. That's funny.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It's not.

[Sheila Marie]

I, I'm the one who says this. I've said this all the time. I say it all the time. So please correct me. Go ahead.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

We've been black for how many millennia and the prisons are still filled with black people, right? Like when we have these sayings or these, like rest is revolutionary or just being black is revolutionary or self care is the this. I want you to think about the most oppressed person. Think about the imprisoned person, think about the disabled person, think about the homeless person, the person who is most oppressed. Does that still apply broadly? Is being black enough for the imprisoned person? Is it, is it, is it the revolution for the disabled person? Is it the revolution for the homeless person to. Or is that only for people who have homes and have their freedom outside of prisons? Right. We center ourselves as often privileged class wise people and not understanding that that is really what we're talking about. We're talking about our class station. And then we slap black on top of it. Like, see, look, I'm free now. No, right. It's the least of us, the weakest of us, if we're leaving them behind. There is no revolution happening. So no being black enough. Being black is not a revolution. It's not. Cause you know who's black? Clarence Thomas.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah. Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well. He sure is. He sure is. You are Absolutely right.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

He is a white supremacist. To the day he dies. Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

To the day, honey. To the day. I'm not even gonna mention the black male Trump supporters in my family, because I'm thinking of them as well right now too.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

But, yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

So the revolution is embodied. It is embodied.

[Sheila Marie]

So then what would be revolutionary using that metric?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Ooh, that's a really good question. I think what is most accessible for people? Because I think what immobilizes people is like, okay, we gotta get everybody, and everybody's gotta do the thing and then. Which is just like, that's a tall order. But I think the micro scale of how we relate to each other is so, so, so important. Again, revolution begins in the body. We can see some of the ways that that plays out. Just like, look at millennials. Like, we refuse to perpetuate the trauma we experience. Some of us, a lot of us, right, we have that language where we are. It was like, I don't want to suffer like that anymore. I don't want to. I don't want the next generation to suffer like that. And we're like, this close to connecting the dots to understand that the reasons why we suffer in these ways always boils down to capitalism, whiteness, and patriarchy. I have this video where I talk about capitalism made you hate your mother.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, tell me more.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Right, because it is only in capitalism and patriarchy that a single adult is saddled with the responsibility for keeping a child alive with no help. So what do you think that makes her overwhelmed? Having to rely on substances, having to rely on men? Right. Having to put your child in unsafe situations because what else is she gonna do? Do? Right? Capitalism made you hate your mother. So when we're talking about the trauma that subsequent generations subsequent to Gen X are working through, that's revolutionary. Because when we get to the point of understanding the real source of our suffering, we understand that there is no healing that can happen unless capitalism is dismantled. There's no wholeness that can happen unless we upend patriarchy, and there is no liberation for anybody. Humanity will not survive white supremacy. We are watching it and living it. So there is not a big jump between trauma, informed self care, you know, therapy, recognizing the ways that the trauma we experience is being perpetuated in our romantic relationships, in the way that we parent, in our friendships. If I feel like if we can just connect that dot, like, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You were abused. And this is why, you know, you have an eating disorder. Absolutely. But why were you abused? What are the conditions that created that necessity.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, wow. Again, have you. I. Yeah.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

The blood is coming. It's coming. Coming.

[Sheila Marie]

How did you know I was gonna say, girl? I was like, no. I started to doubt myself. I'm like, no. I reviewed the notes. I'm like, no, she does have a book out. She might have a book. Don't say that. Cause I don't know if she has a book out yet. I was gonna say, you need to write a book, but it's coming. Or just do whatever your heart desires.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

It's coming. It's coming. Just send up some prayers so that I can have the time to do it.

[Sheila Marie]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I actually wanna end on this question. Cause it is Black History Month. So, you know, Black History Month, a lot of what is black excellence? And I love this post where you were like, why is blackness so tied to celebrity? If your black history wins only include things that celebrities have accomplished or won, then is that really something to celebrate? Wouldn't a real Black History Month win be mass federal expungement? Expungement. Thank you. Of all records of black people who have been convicted of nonviolent crimes. Wouldn't it be 40 acres in a mule? And so I want you to speak to this because I thought this was such a brilliant tie event. I haven't seen anyone, anyone really address it like this.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Yeah. You know, this again, again, circles back to revolution beginning in the body. Because we are discouraged from centering our own experience. We are discouraged from being able to say that just because Beyonce won country album of the Year, that actually does nothing to change the fact that I can't afford housing. There are no homeless people who have the dignity of livelihood and housing. Because Kendrick Lamar did a great performance at the Super Bowl. I love that for both of them. They've worked hard. They're incredibly talented and great for them. But we have to broaden our understanding of what liberation really is. Liberation does not exist inside capitalism. It does not exist inside these systems. And celebrity is one of those things that is a necessity of capitalism. Right? Because it keeps you to aspiring. It keeps you to. It keeps you from really understanding the source of your own suffering. And it goes back to that cult of individualism and free will. See, the reason you're not Beyonce is because you just didn't work hard enough. You just. You. You just need to grind. And it's just like, no, I'm tired and I want to sleep, but I can't afford to sleep. I can't afford to sleep, you know? So I want for Black people in particular, to value themselves enough to center their own experience and to not just discard their own suffering because they see another black person winning. It does feel good. It really, really, really does. But do you know what feels even better? Better? Affordable housing. Health care.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

These bills paid, girl. Like, hello. Right?

[Sheila Marie]

Not being price gouged at every turn. Yeah, that feels good. I. I love this conversation. This was such a very rich conversation. I feel like my mind is expanded in just this short time. And I hope that everyone listening has the same experience before we go. I want to end on giving them a little tool for their unruly tools. Is there anything, any maybe affirmation, any idea, any practice that you just want to share? Like, as a takeaway from what we.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

Talked about today, I'm gonna repeat the same thing I've been saying all day and we don't say it again in the context of everything that we just talked about. That revolution begins in the body. Freedom begins in the imagination. And liberation is what happens when we feel and imagine together. Together.

[Sheila Marie]

Mic drop period. Wow. This conversation. I'm going to be thinking about this for a very, very long time to come. You are such a gift. Dana, I just want to say thank you for everything you share on socials and for taking the time to join us. I'm truly, truly, truly honored. I love. I just love minds. I don't know what it is. I love ideas. And I just feel like you came with such refreshing ideas. You gave us so much to sit with and how we understand liberation and how we understand organization and how we reclaim what's already been ours. Okay, Dana, thank you so much for your wisdom and for naming the things. Where can people find you?

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You can find [e-mail] and my handle on everything is eoplesoracle. I also have a podia, which is like Patreon, and I do like a new moon and full moon reading every month. You don't have to pay for it. It's free. But you can find that on my Instagram as well in the Highlights eplesoracle.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. And yes. For those of you listening, if this conversation resonated with you, please follow the People's Oracle Book readings with her.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

You do readings with her? I do.

[Sheila Marie]

That's right. Okay. You do book readings with her. Follow her, support her, and please share this conversation to someone you know, one of your friends. Go ahead and DM it to them right now. Text it to them right now. We gotta keep this momentum going, so stay sharp, stay intentional. And most of all, stay unruly until next time. I'm Sheili Marie. If you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice [e-mail] unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never ever ever ever miss an episode of Unruly.

[Dana Lynn Knuckles]

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[Sheila Marie]

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