← UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [00:14]
Virginia Cumberbatch
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [01:18]
Sheila Marie
I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for Black women, and the founder of the Curvy Curly Conscious movement. In this space. I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Hey y'all. Welcome back to another episode of Unruly. You know, unruly. This is where we break the rules. We unpack the mess and we embrace the fullness of who we are today. We're diving into something that I think the world doesn't talk nearly enough about, which is rest. The good thing is if you're a part of the unruly universe, you know that we love talking about rest. We deeply believe in this as something that is a tool of healing for Black women. We touched on this topic before with Melissa Ifill, my episode with Erica Hart, and my episode with Ebony Janese. So if you like what you hear here after you hear this amazing interview, you can check out those as well. Cause we're talking about deep rest, not just naps, although I love a good nap. We're talking about rest as a radical, necessary act in our lives. And to help us break this all the way down, I am so excited to introduce the woman with the best last name on earth, Virginia Cumberbatch. Virginia is a globally recognized DEI strategist. Uh oh, dei. We'll get into it. She's a racial justice educator and author whose work sits at the intersection of equity and storytelling. She's helped brands like Bumble, Lululem, Burton, and the World Economic Forum. No big deal. Build cultures of belonging. Through her work with Rose of Rebellion, she's created real, tangible spaces for black women to rest, play, and imagine beyond the grind. So today we're gonna talk about the real questions. How do we move beyond slogans like rest is resistance when slowing down feels impossible? How do we dream as a tool for disruption? And how do we actually create lives where we can rest without the guilt? All right, this conversation is about to shift something in you. So, you know, get comfy. Even if. Even if you want to lay down, you could lay down and enjoy this conversation. All right, welcome, Virginia. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [03:41]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Thank you so much for having me. And can you just do my introduction everywhere I go, all the time, every day, because I just felt so encouraged and affirmed by that a hundred percent.
- [03:53]
Sheila Marie
That's our goal here.
- [03:54]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Okay, perfect. Well, I. You. It was mission accomplished for sure. I'm so grateful to be in conversation with you. Thank you for inviting me.
- [04:02]
Sheila Marie
The feeling is mutual. What I think is so ironic is that we guys are. Today is March 10, which I had no idea until Virginia told me that today is na. Is it International Women's Rest Day?
- [04:15]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I was told about an hour ago on a call that today is National Black Women Day of Rest.
- [04:22]
Sheila Marie
Oh, it's just for black women, period.
- [04:24]
Virginia Cumberbatch
So the rest of y'all go exactly. To the front immediately.
- [04:28]
Unknown
Just kidding.
- [04:30]
Sheila Marie
Looks better already. So this is ironic because. Well, you know what? This is still a part of my rest practice because learning and engaging with someone who can help me navigate this late stage capitalistic world when it comes to rest is helpful. So I'll take it. And happy day of rest, everybody.
- [04:51]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Even if.
- [04:51]
Sheila Marie
Whenever you're listening to this. So let's start with some icebreakers. Okay. What is the most rebellious act of joy or play that you've engaged in recently.
- [05:02]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Ooh, recently. Um, so I. Not to age myself, but you know, whatever. We're going to do it. I'm. I just turned 37 a little over a few weeks ago.
- [05:15]
Sheila Marie
Yes, you should.
- [05:16]
Virginia Cumberbatch
And I played soccer throughout my whole life. Played in colle and have not played organized soccer since college. You know, I, I keep in shape. It's a part of my practice of rest, which we'll talk about, right, Running. But I think I've had like a little bit of like fear and imposter syndrome of like I'm too old, these knees are too old to play soccer. But I joined an indoor co ed soccer league in January. And these kids, literally kids I'm playing with like 20 year olds. Oh my God, again. Just felt a little out of place. Like, what am I doing here? And it's just been such a fun outlet for my rage and for my exhaustion and has felt a little rebellious, I think not so much rebellious in terms of disrupting some system in the world, but kind of rebellious in reshaping a myth or a lie. I've been telling myself about what spaces I belong in or what's appropriate for, you know, my age or the work. Like, I don't have time to go play 90 minutes of soccer. I have work to be doing. You know, I have places I need to be. And that those 90 minutes just to get to be mine. And yeah, so that, that feels like the more active or most recent act of rebellion.
- [06:33]
Sheila Marie
I love that you are reminding me that I told myself I was gonna sign up for pickleball lessons and then I backed out. Cause I was like, I'm not athletic. I'm not that. And it's like, no, it literally is.
- [06:44]
Virginia Cumberbatch
It's an act of joy. It's like, this is for me, you know, Correct.
- [06:48]
Sheila Marie
You just do it because you love it. It feels good in your body. What's one way you like to rest? That might surprise people?
- [06:55]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Hmm, that would surprise people. This may not be surprising to some of my good friends, but I just love the, the practice of walking without intention. So people know me. I am a type A person. If it's not on the Google calendar, it doesn't exist. I'm a planner. I'm the organizer in every friend group in every dimension of my family. And maybe during the sort of crux of the pandemic, I discovered that I had never been on a walk around my neighborhood. And I'd lived there for like four years just for, you know, the practice of peace, you know, just to aimlessly walk without having a destination. And so I tried to pick that practice up where I don't have an agenda, don't have a timestamp, I'm not. Doesn't have to be an active practice of, you know, a need to get something done, but just kind of seeing where that 45 minutes takes me. Walking around my neighborhood, doing some really intense people watching because that's also a lovely pastime. And I find it is the only time in the day where I'm truly able to just let my mind not be going through the to do list. Right. I'm able to really dislodge my. The feeling of being obligated to, you know, my computer or time or calendar. And so aimlessly walking or aimlessly exploring my neighborhood has been a really beautiful practice.
- [08:35]
Sheila Marie
I love that. And for me, what I love so much about that is I love prioritizing Whimsy Saunders play Joy. All of these things that have no quote unquote. I'm using air quotes like productive reason because I think we get caught in a loop when you just are doing things that you think are. You get caught in like a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm doing only what I think of. And you never leave any space or an opening for magic, for other blessings, for other downloads to come to you. So for me, I find that some of the most powerful aha. Moments I've had are when I'm just doing something that seems really aimless.
- [09:17]
Virginia Cumberbatch
And I love that. Doing nothing, that language you use. Whimsy sonder, I love that. That's perfect. There's, you know, I often find that revelation comes right in the unplanned. Right. Revelation happens. Revelation happens when we give ourselves the space to imagine. And I find that is conducive to just not having a plan or strategy and just being.
- [09:43]
Sheila Marie
And then I think it also opens us up to new possibilities beyond our own limitations. If you're just creating your life constantly, you will constantly, you know, from your own mind, your own conception of what you think is possible or not, you're going to constantly be reinforcing your own limitations subconsciously and not right. Being open to, oh, I didn't know this. Oh, this thing popped up. So we're talking about rest. I want to start from Timmy, the rest queen. We hear rest is resistance more and more. That phrase I feel like really took off. Shout out to Tricia Hersey of the Nap Ministry. I think during the pandemic her work really became popularized. But what does rest as resistance look like beyond the slogan?
- [10:33]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Yes. Well, first of all, yes, very much so. Grateful to the ways in which Trisha has created just a thoughtful conversation that gives us permission, particularly as black women, particularly as people of color, to reframe, right, and reconstruct our relationship to the practice of rest. My approach to it is slightly different. Just a slight movement of, you know, the language, which is rest in the midst of our resistance. And for me, that's really helpful because I think because of capitalism, because of colonization, because of our history in this country, we sometimes detach rest from the act of resistance, right? We detach joy from the act of resistance. I was talking to a friend, you know, recently, and I was. We were thinking, reflecting on, you know, the ways in which black people in this country have time and time again been able to disrupt systems of oppression. And in that active posture of resistance, they didn't forego their dreams, they didn't forego their joy. If we think about our time on plantations, we created song and the art of gospel and the Negro spiritual while in labor, right? We continue to get married, we continue to have children. We continue to create art and artistry and learn how to read and write, right? And all the different braiding techniques, those were all birthed out of an oppressive state. But in the midst of it, we found practices of joy and practices of rest. And so for me, that's been really important because I think the whitewashing of rest, right, has been connected to, well, I gotta wait till I have enough money to go on this trip to Bali, and I gotta wait until, you know, I have enough credits on class pass to get that, you know, massage. And so we kind of detach it. And for me, it's been really helpful to say no, even in the midst of our collective resistance, even in the midst of this work to disrupt these systems that were never made for me and you. I will come from a posture of joy and wholeness and rest. And that, for me, has been transformative. Because I think my early, you know, my. All of my 20s, my approach was, once I deserve rest, right? Once I feel like I've checked off certain boxes or I've come to this particular moment where I've accomplished something right? Then I will reward myself with rest. And I think instead, it's really helpful for us to think about, well, what does it look like for me to make sure that my labor is always done from a posture of wholeness? Because ultimately, these systems, these practices of capitalism, these institutions and these companies that we know were not made with us in mind, but even more importantly, find us, you know, disposable. They don't deserve our peace. They don't deserve our joy. They don't deserve our exhaustion. You know, and so that for me, and sort of the conversation we've cultivated at Rosa Rebellion was how do we support black and brown women specifically, who we know are always on the front lines of these conversations, right? Because yes, it may be their purpose and their work, but also because our survival and our ability to thrive depends on us building out these systems of resistance. But how can we equip and encourage one another to make sure? Hey, even as you're showing up for community, what is your everyday practice to make sure you are showing up for yourself so that we can sustain these movements and we can sustain this work because we ourselves are sustained.
- [14:35]
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Virginia Cumberbatch
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- [16:37]
Sheila Marie
Wow, that makes me think of a thread that I saw or some tweet, and it said it was just quoting, like, somebody saying to black people, why aren't you marching? And then they responded with, we are. And it was a video of black people line dancing. And I just thought that was so beautiful. Cause it's like, yeah, I love that it's divorcing. The idea that joy and rest comes after the work because the work is never gonna end. And I think that's what a lot of black women will say. Like, if rest is a reward, I'm never done. I'm never done. There's never a space where it's like, all right, the dishes are done. Kids are done. This is done. That's done. Cool. Now I can rest. You literally have to steal these moments or maybe integrate them a normal part of your life, like you're saying.
- [17:28]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Absolutely. I think it has to be a part of our daily posture, right? Not something we're rewarding ourselves with. Or better yet, I think for a lot of us, we've been looking to outside external validation or affirmation that we're worthy of rest, that we're worthy of care even. I think, you know, a lot of times you'll ask folks like, oh, what is your practice of rest? And people will talk about, like, oh, you know, I make sure I get my Pilates and my yoga and Pilates and yoga are beautiful. And those can be practices of caring for ourselves. But I think sometimes we even get a little caught up into what we feel like is socially accessible or socially appropriate practice of rest. So, like, oh, you know, I go get my facials and my Pilates. But, yeah, line dance and facials do.
- [18:20]
Sheila Marie
Not feel relaxing to me.
- [18:21]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Especially when you all up in there zapping things and, you know, yeah, I.
- [18:27]
Sheila Marie
Still gotta drive there. I still gotta make the appointment. You still gotta do all this. I'm like, they don't feel resty.
- [18:31]
Virginia Cumberbatch
It attached to finances, Right? It cost you something. And so that example you talked about, which is like, yeah, line dancing, yeah, Showing up to my friend's house and us cooking a meal together, Those are all practices of rest. And it doesn't have to be attached to capitalism. It doesn't have to be done in your cute Lululemon matching, you know, sweatsuit. It is what is feeding you, what is cultivating an ongoing reminder. Right. Of your humanity. And the ongoing reminder that you are worthy just by existing. Right. And that there's beauty in your blackness. Right. Just by existing.
- [19:18]
Sheila Marie
Absolutely. Rest is resistance. I've seen it everywhere lately. Like, maybe it's just my algorithm, but I've seen discourse lately that's actually criticizing the rest ideology. And that was affirmed with an interview, a podcast interview I did a few weeks ago with a woman, brilliant mind, Dana Lynn Nuckels. And she was saying, well, in terms of black liberation, if everyone can't do it, it's not liberation. Maybe it's individual freedom, but not collective liberation. And I never really thought about it like that. So I was wondering what your thoughts are on that pushback.
- [19:58]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I love that reframing. I do feel like within the conversation of diversity, inclusion and equity, that has become a part, I think, of the challenge that in some ways these DEI efforts, right. Which became in some ways a catch all to the point where I argue that some of the practices that we created weren't that meaningful or that sustainable.
- [20:32]
Sheila Marie
Can you give an example?
- [20:33]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Yes. I think in a lot of ways we've allowed, you know, language is really important. And the way in which we've been able to feel undermined by this administration is because I think we've allowed the language of DEI to mean more than the actual outcomes of dei. Right. And so it's a trigger, right? It's a trigger to white people who've been bamboozled into believing that the efforts of repair, the efforts of equity is automatically an affront on what they feel like they deserve for just being born in this country. Right. And in reality, the work of reparations, the work of repair, the work of equity, should not be an undermining of your existence. It should be a way of creating an environment, creating a cultural dynamic in which we are all able to equitably participate. And so I think DEI has become a proxy for a lot of other things. Right. It's a proxy for blackness. It's a proxy for the work of justice, for the work of racial justice. And so I think if we were to be really honest with ourselves, I think in some spaces DEI has just placated us in a way that we have felt like more progress is being made than actually has taken place, right. That we said, well, yay, you know, now there's these metrics and now, you know, more black and brown people are.
- [22:08]
Sheila Marie
Gonna get hired, you know, what as you're talking, you know what comes to mind? That today actually they are dismantling the Black Lives Matter. What do you even call it? Mural.
- [22:22]
Virginia Cumberbatch
That they wrote artwork.
- [22:23]
Sheila Marie
The artwork on the street outside of the White House. And my initial reaction was, so am I supposed to be upset? You want me to be mad about that? You want me to give a fuck? Sorry. You know, I can cuss this mad fucking podcast, but period. He'll go check me. But I was just like, okay. And that's some bullshit. Sorry. You can see that this is very upsetting. This, this performative gestures that we get from the Democratic Party and from liberal politicians. It's so tiring. I do not care if you write on the street that black Lives matter. I care if they actually matter. And so I love that you're talking about and you being in the DEI space, I'm sure you.
- [23:10]
Virginia Cumberbatch
It's exhausting. I think, to your point, I think symbolism is important. I think language is important, right? And so the. There, there is power in the visual expression of our values, right? And so I don't.
- [23:24]
Sheila Marie
If it reflects exactly.
- [23:26]
Virginia Cumberbatch
If it reflected the root values and that. That's to my point. If we're not seeing sustainable seismic shifts, right, then these symbols of progress mean nothing. That's all they are, is that they are symbols and they are artifacts of something that wasn't fully realized. And so do you feel. No, I was just gonna say I just feel like I want to be less concerned about the undermining of the language of DEI and more committed to the sustained disruption of systems that don't align with equity and liberation. And so I think, you know, to the point of the quote that you mentioned earlier, I think a lot of DI efforts, right, were done within a structure that really only supported middle class black and brown people to elevate us into corporate America to provide different funding efforts to create story campaigns for our favorite brands. Which is all beautiful. That's all necessary work, but it's not the totality of the work. And so I don't think that ever had a trickle down effect where we don't see the statistics of black and Latinx people being unhoused in the disproportionate impact of poverty and disproportionate impact of maternal health rates. If that's not changing, right, Then that means we've just had individual matriculation. Right? But we haven't had mass liberation.
- [25:11]
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- [27:11]
Sheila Marie
Correct? Is there any positive? Is there any silver lining to this, the whole DEI rollback trend that we're seeing now with this current administration?
- [27:22]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I struggle to use the word silver lining because I'm still in. I don't know.
- [27:26]
Sheila Marie
I know I was a terrible Lord.
- [27:28]
Virginia Cumberbatch
What do you call it? Five stages of rage. Not grief, but rage. But I would say that maybe I wouldn't use the word silver or the term silver lining, but I would say there's something for us to leverage here. I think one it makes it very clear who's about this life and who's not, right? And I think it's helpful for us to Know who are our co agitators and who have just been. Who's just been faking it, right. That allows.
- [28:01]
Sheila Marie
Who's just been wearing pink blazers and.
- [28:04]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Holding up blue bracelets and, you know, in their yard sign says, in this house, you know, love is love and Black lives Matter. Right? And for me, that's helpful because we know who not to waste our time with. Right? We know how we can go to the source. So I think that's helpful. I think the other thing is it gets us to maybe pull back the veil of the work and get down to the nitty gritty. How are we actually shifting systems, not creating ergs, not creating one off. What's an erg? If you're working in a corporate space, like, you know, meta or, you know, trying to think, you know, Airbnb, they'll have, like a black resource group, Education resource group is what it stands for. And then they'll have, you know, a Muslim American erg. And these are efforts so that folks can feel, you know, like they have community. Right? And maybe they let the black erg plan Black History Month, and then they let, you know, the Muslim erg talk about what Ramadan means to them. Those are beautiful efforts, but that doesn't change the actual system or cultural ethos. Right. Of that company. Right. Or the industry that it's a part of. And so I think the perhaps opportunity that's ahead of us is we can start to be more strategic and more unapologetic about what we're asking for. I think that's what we've maybe missed. The mark on is we asked for liberation, not new labels. Right? We asked for. We asked for, you know, a new worldview. Right? We didn't ask for just, you know, for you to change the words on your website. And so I think we need to start being really intentional and unapologetic about what we're asking for and not settling for less.
- [30:11]
Sheila Marie
How do we do that?
- [30:14]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Well, if I knew the singular answer to that, I would get paid a lot more than I do. But I think my encouragement in this moment is I think a, we need. You know, we talk about collaboration a lot and we talk about partnerships a lot, but I still feel like we operate because of capitalism, because so much of our world is operated by the algorithm. Right. There's still very much this need to have your name attached to something. Right. And your logo attached to something, rather than us all being willing to be like, as long as we get the work done, that's all that matters. I think we really need sustainable collaboration happening across community. You know, again, we use this word of like, oh, community and the collective and collaboration. But what does that mean in action, right? What does it mean that we all are coming along, you know, in this process? Like, for instance, we just said we didn't know it was National Black Women of Rest Day, right? And how many people did I talk to a few Fridays ago, and they had no idea of the, like, economic blackout, boycott happening, right? That means something's missing around our connectivity, I think, as, as community. And so one, I would love us to start being a little bit more innovative around how we're building community. I think it has to go Beyond Instagram and TikTok, right? And threads, right. And I think we also need to be more invested in community being shaped beyond events, right? But how are we nurturing and cultivating community sustainably? Right. In a way that doesn't depend on 50 of us showing up to this talk or this panel, right? So I think really abiding in the collective and community is one response or strategy to this moment. I think the other piece is.
- [32:22]
Sheila Marie
The.
- [32:22]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Last five years has been wonderful stuff for some of us who've been able to tap into that white guilt money, right? Folks are like, here, I'm gonna write a check, you know, or companies that say, hey, I don't want this to mess with our bottom line, right? I don't want this to affect our consumer base. So we're gonna start, you know, dishing out our funding differently now. A lot of companies did not live up to those promises, but some did. And we're starting to see those funds start to dry up, right? And getting sponsorships isn't as easy as it maybe once was in the last few years. And all of a sudden, you know, like, we run a fund at Rose Rebellion called the Rebel Fund. And, you know, it's been a beautiful journey for us to put together these little coins. It's $30,000, which is a good chunk of change that, you know, we've had to work to get. But we were overwhelmed by the fact that we opened up applications beginning of February. We closed at the end of February. The last round of funding, we had like 120 applications. When we closed at the end of February, we had 444 applications. And this just was for like $5,000 grants. So for us, really demonstrative of folks being like, the funds are needed. And while, yes, these white institutions and these brands, right, are really helpful resources, I think we also have to start being okay. With financing our work and our resistance ourselves. Right? And by that I just mean how are we pinching these pennies together? We're gonna make it work. We're gonna do what it does because we've always been resourceful, we've always been creative. And I think there's so much brilliance and so much innovation that's sitting dormant within our community because we're waiting on funding and we're waiting on checks to be cleared. And I'm like, we just need to do it. We'll make it work. Right? All of us will come together to make sure it gets financed. And I know that can be exhausting, but I'm not willing to allow, like, the genius that exists within us, right. To go unfulfilled because we're waiting for white dollars to show up. Right? We know the worth and the value of our ideas. We know the worth and value of the spaces we create. And we don't need to continue to jump through hoops for some of these grants and some of these funds to proving to them why we are worthy. Right. When we already know the impact of our work.
- [35:14]
Sheila Marie
What's your take on the target boycott?
- [35:17]
Virginia Cumberbatch
You really hit me with all these questions.
- [35:21]
Sheila Marie
I mean, it's not every day I get to speak to someone who has expertise in your field. So I gotta ask all the people, you're kind.
- [35:29]
Virginia Cumberbatch
This is my response in general to any practice of resistance. It's all needed. I think we do ourself a disservice when we spend time and I think wasted energy on saying what's more important or what's a more valuable practice of resistance. The same way I have so many peers and colleagues that I admire and respect where we do, we have similar purposes and similar invested interest in our communities, what we want to see for our communities, but different tactics, different personalities, different paradigms and approaches. And I always find it so interesting when, like, why would I undermine or invalidate how you approach this work when I believe you're called to speak to certain ears, right. And galvanize certain communities in a way that I'm not equipped to do that. Right. That my lived experience doesn't and doesn't support me in doing it in the way that you do it. And so I think on a collective macro level, it's the same thing to say, well, why would we spend time boycotting? That's never gonna work. Not, you know, people are set in their ways of never being inconvenienced. Will everyone get on board? No. But first of all, we've already seen the impact where they've lost millions, if not billions of dollars by our investment in that. So I don't think it is useful. You know, I think we have a little bit of a misguided memory, like collective memory. We were like, oh, people were so organized in 19, right?
- [37:17]
Sheila Marie
We have this fantasy memory.
- [37:20]
Virginia Cumberbatch
You know, they were able to organize a one year boycott because people were willing to do the work and be inconvenience. I was like, first of all, it was a one day bus boycott. And then when people realized the impact and what would be asked of them, that turned into a week, which turned into a month, which turned into a year. It was also done on a very local micro scale. So engaging, you know, 50,000 people right in Montgomery is very different from engaging hundreds of millions of people across the country asking them to boycott Amazon and Target. But it doesn't mean that the work, that that response of resistance isn't valuable. And so I think we need to be more concerned about identifying what our individual practice of resistance is going to be rather than spending time condemning what other people's.
- [38:22]
Sheila Marie
Oh my gosh, yes, yes, I love that. Can you say that one more time?
- [38:29]
Virginia Cumberbatch
We should be more concerned about what our individual practice of resistance and disruption is gonna be rather than condemning other people's choice of resistance.
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- [40:11]
Sheila Marie
A hundred percent. I'm really glad that you said that. I was, you know, watching those, you know, on socials and seeing what the commentary was about around the boycott, and I was kind of discouraged by seeing a lot of it'll never work a day. Doesn't make any sense. Y'all are stupid. Why are you even doing this? Oh, but you still on Mark Zuckerberg Internet or his app, so. And it just seems like a lot of discouraging talk. And I feel like what you're offering is a more holistic approach. Like, this is all part of the resistance. In the same way, people are like, y'all over here watching shows, and that's why y'all distracted. I'm like, babe, first of all, I got a phone. I'm distracted all the time, okay? Secondly, I can watch shows and be a part of the revolution. I can still rebel, and I can decide to boycott Target, and it has. And you know what I mean? Or maybe I can do a day or maybe. And that there's entry points for everyone. So I love that you're offering up a holistic approach that doesn't leave so many people behind, as if it.
- [41:14]
Virginia Cumberbatch
No, I was gonna say. And I think that what you just said was so resonant of what you spoke of earlier, this feeling that, you know, we. Not everyone, has been able to participate in liberation. I think that's something important to remember. Being an active participant in the work of resistance and liberation in itself is a privilege. The ability, the time and privilege it is, or the privilege it is to have time and space to sit on this podcast and reflects on our practices of resistance. The time and space to sit there on threads and argue about whether a boycott, when we've got people within our community, within our collective community in this country, who are literally living paycheck to paycheck, who are literally at the hands. Right, of some of these systems. And so part of it is also recognizing that to be an active participant, right, in the process of voting and the process of being able to decide how you're going to resist in itself is a privilege. And so I think it's even more important than that we don't condemn or undermine what people are capable of doing. Right. That capitalism and colonization of white supremacy, that's the enemy. Right. That's who we should be. That's what we should be spending our energy in condemning. Not judging whether or not someone has the ability to no longer order things from Amazon. Right. Because. Because of their circumstances. Right. Or judging that, hey, your method of disseminating information is Instagram. Because we haven't built anything else for now. Right. But that there's still the opportunity for us to do this thoughtfully and there's still the opportunity for us to do this, as you said before, holistically.
- [43:03]
Sheila Marie
Mm. And speaking of people who might feel left behind, what do you say to going back to rest? What do you say to someone who feels like a woman, who's like, rest is simply not an option for me due to financial instability or caregiving or work demands? They hear rest. I don't have time to rest. I can't.
- [43:25]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I think it's really important, or let me rephrase that. I think it's been meaningful for me to redefine what rest looks like, because I think we often think of rest or we equate rest to sleep or being still. I don't have time to be still. I've got bills to pay. I don't have time to be still. We've got a resistance to participate in. I don't have time to be still. I've got kids and I used to be in conversation really frequently. I'm still in conversation frequently with my maternal grandmother, but we used to have a podcast, and my grandmother was the co host, and she's.
- [44:01]
Sheila Marie
Oh, my goodness. That's the cutest thing I've heard all week.
- [44:05]
Virginia Cumberbatch
She's incredible.
- [44:07]
Sheila Marie
What was it called?
- [44:08]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Gen Activist. And so it was exploring creative activism through the lens of intergenerational dialogue. And she's 88 years old. I'm gonna cry.
- [44:16]
Sheila Marie
That is the cutest thing.
- [44:17]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I affectionately call her Dr. G. Mom. She's a retired professor at USC. She was the first black woman to graduate from Wake Forest and the first black woman to teach at a big public school in Los Angeles. And it's just a wealth of knowledge. Like, this woman sends me text messages every day. She has her own meme, like, her own bitmoji. She's like an incredible. She walks three miles a day. She's 88. Wait, how old is she?
- [44:48]
Sheila Marie
Honestly, like, I feel like I'm getting tears in my eyes for two reasons. One is my paternal grandmother passed away before I Could meet her. And my maternal grandmother, I don't have a relationship with, so I don't have a grandma. Like, I don't. I don't know what that's like. So when people talk about grandma, like, I just get so teary because I. I aspire to be your grandma.
- [45:11]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Well, this gave me chills because that's literally the response from every podcast episode. We'd have these guests on, and they'd be like, can I just be on this call just to talk to G Mom, like, literally. And my co. My other co host and my co founder, Rosa Rebellion Megan, she also never had relationships with her. Her grandmother, so she's been affectionately adopted by Dr. G Mom. And as inspirational. And like, this woman got her PhD at 52, like, after having five kids, you know, I. Wow, emulate. You know, she represents. You know, here we are in Women's History Month, right? The just active resistance, resilience, but also just like, brilliance in the midst, right? And what was interesting is we recorded two seasons, and she said, I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be in conversation with the two of you because you've made me rethink what rest looks like. And for her, it was so embedded in her DNA, right? We talk about epigenetics, right, that as black women, we've absorbed the pains and the harms and the toxic paradigms of our mothers and grandmothers and great great grandmothers. And so for my grandmother, this idea of work, this idea of not just being productive, but constantly figuring out how she was gonna show up in community was so embedded in her DNA, she didn't know anything else. And so the idea of rest, you know, we would always try to send her on trips or to the spa, and she's like, I don't have time for that. And that for her, she was like, that's a luxury, and that's pampering that I don't need. And we were able to have her even reframe. Oh. Rest isn't necessarily being still right or opting out of labor. Rest is sometimes just reminding myself, right, that I am worthy right of care. And that care can show up in so many forms. So I love to remind myself, right, that our practice of rest can look different. First of all, season to season, you might be in a season where you cannot. You don't have the energy or the bandwidth to work out as much as you want to. Or you might be in a season where you do not have the financial capital to invest in your rest in a certain way. And Just like seasons of life invite us into different rhythms, I think our seasons are practices of rest also need to be okay with evolving, right? And so for me, an act of love, to me, I love that in this season has been cooking for myself. That to me is showing care that I find myself worthy enough, get in this kitchen, cook what I want, cook something that I know is gonna make my body feel good, but that also reminds me I can sit down and enjoy this food, this food that I've worked for, that I've earned, right? And so maybe that's your active care. You got to eat anyway, so what would it look like? That your act of rest is spending that 30 minutes cooking for yourself? Or that your act of rest is making time to be invested in and loved on by people you know unapologetically care for you? That your act of rest is, I am going to grab that coffee. That act of rest is, I am going to go over to so and so's house without an agenda, without some fancy dinner I gotta get dressed up to and just sit there and be in each other's company. One of my friends said this year that her act of rest was going to be sending voice notes to her friends because it forced her, you know, a text, you kind of go back and forth a little bit. But a voice note took time, it took care, and it forced her to reflect on how is she actually doing. And then she got to hear her voice, you know, the voice of her friend talk back to her. So I think this dismantling, this sort of cultural version of what rest looks like and making rest work for you, how do you interpret it for your life in this moment and that it's okay if your practice of rest changes in the summer versus what it looks like in the winter? Like, I talked about walking, right, As a form of rest. For me, it ain't gonna happen when it gets below 30 in these new York streets, right? So I've had to recalibrate what my. Cause I'm not doing my evening walks anymore. So I'm like, okay, what does that look like for me? And for me, this winter, it has been cooking like being in my home, cooking, cooking for other people. That for me is an act of care. And maybe sometimes I think inserting or using another word for rest, like finding the word that resonates to you, can also be helpful. I think some people hear rest and they're just not able to really come around it. Cause they. They're like, well, I can't sleep anymore than I Do, and I don't have more time, so maybe insert a word that resonates better, like, is it care? How do I care for myself? Or what's my practice of care? Is it love? Is it community? Whatever it is that feels more resonant and more accessible. And I just, you know, I saw you getting teary eyed talking about my grandmother.
- [50:42]
Sheila Marie
Yeah.
- [50:42]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Because I. It has been such an honor because one, I recognize the privilege of having both my grandmothers in my life and who are active voices. And to know that at 80 something years old, she's still evolving.
- [51:02]
Sheila Marie
Her practice of rest, that is incredible and so inspiring, honestly.
- [51:07]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Right? So it's like, girl, you know, you're sitting here listening to this podcast at 28 or 37 can always evolve and you can always learn more about yourself, about what you need. And so even at 88, because we joke that my grandmother doesn't know the term or the proper definition of retirement because she's retired like four times, we're like, we really don't understand what this word means because you don't seem to know. And you know, I'm like, why am I calling you? And you're telling me you gotta run to go to a board meeting. I'm like, woman, sit somewhere. Right? But even at that age, she has evolved and grown in how she cares for herself. And so for me, that is so encouraging and inspirational around. We can always evolve, right? And we can always learn to care for ourselves differently.
- [52:05]
Sheila Marie
I love that, that let the rest evolve as you do. Let it, let it be a friend, like holding your hand, you know, with you growing up in this and you get to choose. You get to choose what feels good to you. I love that reminder because sometimes all we really need is permission, right? Permission to just.
- [52:23]
Virginia Cumberbatch
That's actually been my word over the last year, is permission.
- [52:27]
Sheila Marie
What'd you say?
- [52:28]
Virginia Cumberbatch
The word you just used, permission, has actually been my, my word over the last year.
- [52:33]
Sheila Marie
Isn't it such a big. Why is it such an important word for you?
- [52:37]
Virginia Cumberbatch
You know, I have, you know, connected to our conversation of rest. I think I substituted rest for joy in the past year. How was I giving myself the space and permission to experience joy? And so much of my life was connected to my labor, right. That, you know, not in like a martyr way, but so much of my rhythm in life was how am I showing up in community? How am I showing up, you know, in the spaces I'm being invited to? And so I actually moved from Austin to Brooklyn a year ago, almost exactly a year ago.
- [53:18]
Sheila Marie
That had to been a crazy little.
- [53:20]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Transition, but, you know, not as crazy as people would think. And part of, I love that for you, part of the transition was giving myself permission to just be. To be able to show up and knowing that me showing up detached from my labor was of value. And I didn't know that life, to be honest with you, in Austin, for those listening, I don't know how much people know of the cultural landscape of Austin, but Austin, you know, since smack dab in the middle of Texas and considered itself to be very liberal and progressive and it's a artist hub and an innovation hub, but it's also a very white city, right? And I'm born and raised there. And so, so much of my work and my community presence was connected to making that a city and a community that was for us where black and brown bodies could, could thrive, right? And feel like we were a part of making and participating in the cultural ethos. And that infiltrated every part of my life, my social life, my community life, my professional life, and giving myself permission to a. Entertain the thought of moving. It took me a year of therapy to get to a point where I was like, wait a minute, I'm a grown woman. I can make these decisions for myself, right?
- [54:45]
Sheila Marie
You mean I have free will.
- [54:47]
Virginia Cumberbatch
I can make decisions for my life. And what was interesting, a practice of the permission was every time, once I started to tell people that I was moving, right, there was, you know, some big reactions from people, you know, boards I was sitting on and you know, leaders in community, friends, family. And of course everyone would ask, well, why? And I felt like I owed everyone some 10 page dissertation on why I was moving. Oh, well, you know, it's really good for our partnerships for Rosa rebellion or, you know, I travel there so much already for work or, you know, X, Y and Z until I finally got to a point where I was like, because I want to. And that, first of all, full sentence. But it was such a act of liberation for me. You know, it might feel small to other people that I gave myself permission to build a different rhythm for myself. I gave myself permission to build a life that detached from my labor was valuable, right? That my presence was valuable all by itself. And gave myself permission to your, to the point of, you know, our discourse today, to find different practices of rest for me. And that for me, my rest in the last year has come in just unapologetically abiding in black community. Like every block party, every community, you know, gathering, living in this part of Bed Stuy Finding it beautiful. Oh, my gosh.
- [56:25]
Sheila Marie
I used to live in Bed Stuy.
- [56:26]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Shout out to Bed Stuy. That I can look around my apartment right now and know every black owned business that I purchased that art from or that vase from. Like that has been a part of my rest, is recognizing that I don't always have to be. Be the builder or the doer. Right. That sometimes I can just show up and receive. And being in a posture of receiving has been the most healing act of rest that I think I've had in my adulthood.
- [56:57]
Sheila Marie
You brought up Rosa Rebellion. This is your baby. Can you tell us about Rosa Rebellion?
- [57:03]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Thank you for giving me the space to. Oh, I'm curious.
- [57:07]
Sheila Marie
We want to know. We're proud of you.
- [57:09]
Virginia Cumberbatch
So Rosa Rebellion was really birthed out of a lot of what we've been talking about today. At the time, I was serving as the director of the center for Community Engagement and the Social Justice Institute at the University of Texas. And this was sort of a role in which I was tasked with leveraging the resources of this massive public institution of higher learning and building more equitable practices in the community. And such an honor to be invited into that work, but such an exhausting space to exist in as a black woman. Right. That reluctantly was doing this work on behalf of an institution. Right. That wasn't built for me. Right. On behalf of an institution that wasn't writing always for people that look like. Look like me. And in that process, recognizing how little support women of color receive. Black women specifically in our efforts of resistance. Right. Lack of financial support, but also lack of collective support. And so I was often commiserating with my co founder, Megan Harding, who's worked is as a civil rights attorney, that we also wanted permission. There's that word again. To do this work through innovative creative strategies that we didn't feel like the only way to do this work was through policy or protest, but also through storytelling and also through creative disruption. And so we kind of coined this term of we wanted permission to be creative activists. Right. That was informed by our lived experience and the fact that we know as black women, we are constantly finding ways to resist. Right. Through our own ingenuity and our own innovation, our own resourcefulness. And so we created Rosa Rebellion to be this platform for creative activism where we were amplifying and elevating the stories and voices of women of color who were doing the work of building a more equitable future. And so we launched in 2019 at south by Southwest. And for the last five years, we have just been Trying to unapologetically create spaces that see us and that hopefully support our work. And so we have three programs that we run annually. One is a writing retreat and storytelling incubator. It's in partnership with Soho House and Vox Media, where we select 10 women of color from across the country who are using storytelling as a form of racial justice. And we give them a physical space to work from because we know part of the disruption of our work is oftentimes not having the physical and mental space to do so. Like one of the thieves of racism is distracting us from our work. And so how do we create beautiful, affirming. Shout out to Toni Morrison.
- [60:21]
Sheila Marie
Toni Morrison. Yeah, I was gonna say yes.
- [60:23]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Right? Distracting me from my purpose because I'm having.
- [60:27]
Sheila Marie
It's just a distraction over and over.
- [60:29]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Again because I'm dealing with your foolishness. Right. So we equip them with resources, physical space, a membership so they can, you know, work from Soho House. And then a mentor to helps them get their documentary to production or their book to publication or their podcast to. To publication. And then we run another program called Rebel Unrest, which was really birthed out of our desire to support bipoc activists who are doing this work on the front lines, but don't have any rhythm or tools to equip their own well being. And so how do we help protect their peace while they work on behalf of community? And so we've had several iterations of that as retreats, as workshops, as partnerships with like Lululemon, where for free, we're just offering resources and spaces for restoration. Right. Because if we can't be replenished and restore ourselves, it's really hard to be able to continue to show up in this work of resistance.
- [61:37]
Sheila Marie
Absolutely. First of all, I want to commend you. That is amazing. And I'm just very like, honored that you're here and like hearing all the work that you do. I can't imagine the work that goes into that.
- [61:48]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Thank you. It feels like heart work, you know, and hard work. But hard work. And you know, as a reminder, I joke with my co founder, probably in the last five years, every three months, every quarter, have a little bit of a breakdown, right? The fatigue. And I'm like, what's the point of this anyway? Is this, you know, capitalism persists? When can we go build Wakanda, I don't want to be a girl, all those things. Right. And that's why I think, you know, these reminders, being in conversation with people like you who've unapologetically created this space for, you know, our, not just our rest, but our holistic wellness is so helpful.
- [62:35]
Sheila Marie
Yes. And speaking of things that are helpful, we have reached the portion of the interview where we leave them with a tool to add to their unruly toolkit. So sometimes people leave an affirmation, a practice, a scripture, whatever, whatever you want to leave. For the woman who's like, I'm interested in slowing down. I really want to reclaim my time. I really want to rest, help. What do I do? How do I start? Is there any tool that you can offer up to anyone listening in that position?
- [63:07]
Virginia Cumberbatch
This is going to feel perhaps oversimplified. I found it to be really meaningful for me. And it's a set reminder and kind of going back to our conversation of generational support, it's a practice that my grandmother kind of passed on to me, so my grandmother to my mother. So my grandmother and mom are like obsessive tea drinkers. They've never drink, drank coffee, they always drink tea. And it's kind of a running joke because they wake up crazy early in the morning. They, they, they just had their tea. And over the past few years, I've used the ritual of making my tea in the morning as a reminder to take up space to, right? And taking up space is a form of my rest, but also a form of my resistance. And I think oftentimes we get caught up in the day to day grind, the day to day obligations. And this is like 10 minutes out of my day. But it forces me to start my day from a practice that centers not just my wellbeing, but for me, also a spiritual practice where, okay, it's 10 minutes I gotta wait for my water heater to heat up. So that's 10 minutes I can check in with God. That's 10 minutes that I can be reminded of my humanity, despite what that CNN headliner says. That's 10 minutes that I can remind myself that I'm valuable outside of what I accomplished today, right? That's 10 minutes that I can remind myself that, that the virtue of my blackness, right, the virtue of my womanhoodness, right, is a part of the strength that will not just get me through this day, but that will be a part of our collective liberation. And so I actually have it while we're talking my little teacup here. But there's something about the ritual of literally pouring into myself every single morning, right? That 10 minutes I wait for that water to heat up and then something, having that ritual of having something warm go into my body. It's just a comfort. And so I say it's about the ritual of the tea, but it also forces me to have that moment of reflection rather than the first thing I do is go on my phone, start looking at my calendar, start scrolling to, you know, Instagram or TikTok. And it forces me to have that moment of reflection and that moment of reconnection with myself and with God.
- [65:47]
Sheila Marie
That is beautiful. Thank you so much. I am a certified coffee drinker, but I am definitely gonna get into my tea bag. Pun intended.
- [65:58]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Yes.
- [65:59]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much for this conversation. I feel like I went to church, I had a good little cry therapy revolution all in one conversation. Virginia, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your heart, and just for reminding us that rest isn't just about taking a break. It's really about reclaiming your time and reclaiming your own energy and making it your own. Give yourself permission to rest in whatever way works for you and everybody listening. I hope that this conversation sparked something within you, whether it's a new way of thinking about rest or just the permission to dream bigger, to love yourself a little bit further or deeper. Virginia, people are gonna be wanting to find you. Where can people find you? Find out about Rosa Rebellion and all the things you got going on.
- [66:49]
Virginia Cumberbatch
Well, thank you again for having me. This has been such a joy and a practice of rest. You can follow me on Instagram @VA Cumberbatch. You can also follow Rosa Rebellion, Rosa Rebellion and then feel free to reach out DM me. My DMs are always open, always grateful to connect with people and share each other's stories and dreams.
- [67:13]
Sheila Marie
Yes, absolutely. Make sure you follow and support Virginia and all of the things she's doing. Her work is absolutely changing the game. And if this conversation spoke to you, don't keep it to yourself. Don't be stingy. Okay. Share this episode Tag us. Tag Virginia. And let's keep this conversation going until next time. Who says that? Until next time, Take care of yourselves and each other. Who says that? I know y'all are gonna write me. Somebody write me and tell me who says that?
- [67:42]
Virginia Cumberbatch
It feels like a throwback. Maybe I'm singing like Delilah from back in the day in the 1990s, but I don't know. Right?
- [67:49]
Sheila Marie
Take care of yourselves and each other. It is something. It's gonna come to me. By the time I post this, I will have to reference it. But please take care of yourselves and each other and we will see you next time on Unruly. Virginia, thank you so much again for joining us. If you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice note@speakpipe.com unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never ever, ever ever miss an episode of Unruly.
- [68:46]
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