33: Expat or Escape? The Truth About Leaving the U.S. for Good ft. Imani Bashir

Summary

Unruly with Shelah Marie: Episode 33 - "Expat or Escape? The Truth About Leaving the U.S. for Good" Featuring Imani Bashir

Release Date: May 20, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 33 of Unruly with Shelah Marie, host Shelah Marie engages in a profound conversation with Imani Bashir, an award-winning multimedia journalist, travel expert, and culture creator. Imani brings a wealth of experience as a global citizen, having lived in five countries while raising a multilingual son. The episode delves into the complexities of being a black expatriate, dismantling stereotypes, and exploring the intersection of travel and activism.

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Challenging Stereotypes of Black Travelers

Shelah opens the discussion by addressing prevalent stereotypes about black travelers. When asked what stereotype she would erase, Imani candidly responds:

[03:10] Imani Bashir: "Um. Ooh, stereotype that we don't have money."

Imani emphasizes that black travelers have the necessary funds to explore the world, countering the misconception that they lack financial means. This sets the stage for a broader conversation about the realities and privileges associated with black mobility.

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Experiencing Home Abroad: Imani's Journey in China

One of the most compelling segments is Imani’s unexpected sense of belonging in China, a country often stereotyped as unwelcoming to Muslims. She shares her experiences:

[03:51] Imani Bashir: "China's a very family-friendly place. Now granted, I do not speak Mandarin... I was very comfortable walking the streets... I never had a situation where I felt unsafe or like I didn't belong."

Imani highlights the rich Islamic history in China, noting the presence of ancient mosques and halal restaurants, which contributed to her feeling at home. She contrasts her positive experiences with the current treatment of Uyghur Muslims in northern China, underscoring the diversity of experiences within the country.

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Practical Travel Tips: Building a Black Travel Starter Kit

Imani provides invaluable advice for black travelers, advocating for tools that enhance safety and connectivity:

[07:18] Imani Bashir: "I would download the app called Green Book Global... It's very similar to TripAdvisor, but for black folks... It even has a mechanism to reroute you outside of sundown towns."

She recommends the Green Book Global app, designed specifically for black travelers to review and share safe and welcoming destinations. Additionally, Imani underscores the importance of practical items like tracking devices for luggage and obtaining a Real ID or passport ahead of upcoming regulations.

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Upbringing, Identity, and the Influence of Family

Shelah explores Imani’s upbringing and its impact on her global perspective. Imani recounts her late start in travel and the pivotal role her family played in shaping her identity:

[13:31] Imani Bashir: "My father's side comes from generational Islam... Black Muslims were the first to practice, pray, and fast in the United States."

Imani delves into her family's rich Muslim heritage, emphasizing the preservation of Islamic traditions despite historical challenges. She shares poignant family stories, including her grandfather's fight to retain the family name "Bashir" against racial classification.

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Motherhood and Raising a Third Culture Kid

A significant portion of the episode focuses on motherhood and the unique experiences of raising a third culture kid. Imani discusses the challenges and joys of her son's upbringing across five countries:

[46:23] Imani Bashir: "My son's lived in five countries, he's eight. He’s fluent in Spanish, and he loves to learn new things."

Imani describes how her son's exposure to diverse cultures fosters his inquisitiveness and adaptability. She also shares her personal experience of giving birth in Poland through an unassisted birth at home, highlighting the importance of creating a nurturing and culturally rich environment for her child.

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Being a Black Expat: Privilege and Ethical Travel

Imani addresses the nuanced topic of being a black expatriate, emphasizing the importance of ethical travel and community integration:

[58:19] Imani Bashir: "An expatriate is someone who traditionally is a bit more nomadic... But it's not okay that words that mean things are demonized against one set of folks over another."

She encourages black travelers to avoid creating isolated expat enclaves that alienate local communities. Instead, Imani advocates for building genuine connections, supporting local businesses, and immersing oneself in the host country’s culture and language.

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Initiatives: The Passport Project

Imani passionately discusses her initiative to help 15 individuals obtain passports through donations, addressing financial barriers that restrict travel:

[62:49] Imani Bashir: "People started donating. I have a Gifts and Go campaign... I have to slow walk it that way, but it's been a blessing."

Despite facing challenges such as being removed from TikTok’s creator fund, Imani perseveres by pivoting to community donations. Her commitment underscores the broader goal of facilitating black mobility and empowering individuals to explore the world without financial constraints.

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Toolkit Advice: Embracing a Traveler’s Mindset

As part of the episode's toolkit segment, Imani offers a profound piece of advice inspired by Islamic teachings:

[67:27] Imani Bashir: "Be in the world like a traveler or a wanderer along the path... Enjoy the things that you learn, the people that you meet, the conversations that you encounter."

Imani emphasizes the transient nature of life and the importance of embracing each moment with curiosity and openness, fostering a deeper connection with oneself and the world.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates with heartfelt acknowledgments and encouragement for listeners to pursue their own journeys of mobility and self-discovery. Shelah commends Imani for her initiatives and invites listeners to support her work, reinforcing the episode's central themes of freedom, community, and ethical travel.

[70:34] Sheila Marie: "Imani, thank you so much for joining us today. I'll definitely see you on the Internet later."

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Key Takeaways

• Challenging Stereotypes: Black travelers have diverse financial and cultural backgrounds, debunking myths of economic limitations.

• Sense of Belonging Abroad: Personal safety and belonging are attainable in unexpected places, such as China, due to rich cultural histories.

• Practical Tools for Travelers: Utilizing specialized apps like Green Book Global and ensuring proper documentation (Real ID/passport) are essential for safe and informed travel.

• Cultural Identity and Heritage: Understanding and preserving one’s cultural and religious heritage is crucial in shaping a global perspective.

• Raising Global Citizens: Exposure to multiple cultures fosters curiosity, adaptability, and a love for learning in children.

• Ethical Expatriation: Integrating with local communities and supporting local economies prevents the creation of isolated expat enclaves.

• Empowering Initiatives: Efforts like Imani’s Passport Project address systemic barriers, promoting greater black mobility and access to global opportunities.

• Traveler’s Mindset: Embracing life as a traveler encourages mindfulness, appreciation, and continuous personal growth.

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Connect with Imani Bashir

• Social Media: Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Threads
• Newsletter: The Borderless Life on Substack
• Contact: speakpipe.com/unruly

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Stay inspired and empowered by embracing your own journey toward mobility and self-discovery. For more transformative conversations, subscribe to Unruly with Shelah Marie and join the community dedicated to holistic wellness and personal growth.

Transcript

[Sheila Marie]

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[Sheila Marie]

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[Sheila Marie]

Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for black women, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who. Who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly child. Welcome back. It's your girl, Sheila Marie. And it's another episode of Unruly with Sheila Marie. And today's episode is. Okay. Timely and necessary. We are going to expand the way you think about being an expat. We're going to really? Yeah. You like. You see what I did there? We're not just talking vacation selfies and passport stamps. This is about mobility, freedom and living life on your own terms. What does it mean to build a life where movement is the foundation, where travel isn't just about, you know, going somewhere, it's about becoming someone. Our guest today is someone who knows all about that. The amazing Amani Bashir. She is an award winning multimedia journalist, a travel expert and culture creator who has lived in five countries, given birth abroad, and is raising a son who speaks multiple languages and moves through the world with ease? Period. Can I get an amen? She has been featured in the New York Times, Essence Travel and Leisure and more. And her work is dedicated to amplifying black mobility and dismantling the barriers that keep us from experiencing the world freely. We're gonna talk about whether travel can truly be a form of activism, the realities of raising a child as a global citizen, and how choosing a life of mobility has shaped Emoni's personal and professional world. Are you ready for this conversation? I know I am. I am so excited. Welcome to Unruly Imani.

[Imani Bashir]

Thank you so much, Sheila. I am so Happy to be here. Me too.

[Sheila Marie]

I love following you. I'm always like, ooh, clock it. I don't always have the bravery or the words or the language to say some of the things that you articulate, but I love it so much. I love how you stand 10 toes down and you ain't never scared.

[Imani Bashir]

Never.

[Sheila Marie]

Ain't never, period. And we're gonna get into maybe why. So let me start with some icebreakers. If you could erase one stereotype about black travelers, what would it be?

[Imani Bashir]

Um. Ooh, stereotype that we don't have money.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh.

[Imani Bashir]

Cause we got funds, we got coins.

[Sheila Marie]

Is it. Is it just the black folks outside of the US or the. We got coins in the US Too.

[Imani Bashir]

I feel like. I feel like we got coins in the US Too.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, we. Okay, good. Okay. I was wondering from your global perspective, and I was like, yeah, we got. We do.

[Imani Bashir]

We got a little bag here and there.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. Period. Not us. Being on White Lotus, what's the most unexpected place where you felt the most at home?

[Imani Bashir]

China.

[Sheila Marie]

I did not expect that to be your answer. Can you tell us more?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah. China's a very family friendly place. Now granted, I do not speak Mandarin. Right. People could have been saying all kinds of stuff, but I was left alone. People didn't bother me. I was very comfortable walking the streets. I was very comfortable with taking public transportation. Obviously having my son out there. What caught me off guard was because so many people have variations of experiences and China is huge. So I lived in two different cities on two different sides of China and traveled to multitude of cities in China just to experience the difference between like going to a very rural side of China and being in like a Shanghai, which is like multicultural, a lot of people from different countries and things of that nature. And I was just really taken aback that like, you know, people move how they move, like, yeah, they're gonna look at you because it's like, whoa. You know, but at the same time, it's like I was not bothered at all. I was not ever had a situation where I felt unsafe or I felt like I didn't belong or that someone was making a snarky remark or anything like that. And we had such a. A very normal living, such a peaceful existence, such a normal day to day, as close to whatever normalcy is you can get in terms of getting up, going to the mall, you know, going to see a movie, going to do, you know, regular schmegler things, going to a friendsgiving, you know what I mean? That's the main place that When I tell people, they're like, what did you feel? But I felt right at home.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you feel that you experienced any microaggressions?

[Imani Bashir]

I never had that feeling.

[Sheila Marie]

Interesting.

[Imani Bashir]

I never had that feeling. I'm Muslim, and there's a lot of things that are happening in China, in the north, to the Uyghur people. They're a Muslim population that is at the very, like, north of China. China is huge. But they're very north of China, and they've been treated extremely badly. They've been going through these, like, conversion type of concentration style camps and things of that nature. So when I was there, a lot of people were like, don't go there. They don't like Muslims. They don't, you know, et cetera. But China has actually one of the oldest Islamic histories in the world. They have some of the oldest mosques in the world. They have some of the biggest mosques in the world. So everywhere I would go had halal restaurants and women in hijab, men in their kufis.

[Sheila Marie]

No way.

[Imani Bashir]

We ain't speak too many close to the language. But I would. We would eat together, and I would go and pray with them, and you know what I mean? And I just. I. It's one of those very unsuspecting places where you're like, wow, you know, this is a different depiction than what it is that you get if you don't experience it on your own.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. Do you feel safer and more at home there than you do in the States?

[Imani Bashir]

Absolutely.

[Sheila Marie]

Huh. That's interesting. We're gonna get into that. Okay, so if you were gonna design the ultimate black travel starter kit, what would be in that kit?

[Imani Bashir]

Oh, okay. So I would download the app called Green Book Global. It was created by a black man specifically for black travelers. It's kind of like, I don't want to compare it to another company because I feel like ours should stand on its own, but just to give people an idea, it's very similar to, like, a TripAdvisor, but for black folks. Wherever you've traveled, wherever folks are traveling in the world, they can give their review. Listen, this is what happened to me. Don't go there. You know, these are the things that I experienced. These are. You know, it was wonderful. They treated us amazing, et cetera. It has every single thing, but it's an app, and it's called Green Book Global. And Lawrence, who created it, you know, created it for us. A tech guy that left. Left his corporate job and was like, look, I want us to feel safe when we're traveling. And that's literally for international and national travel. To the point where if you're. Let's say you want to take a road trip, but you're like, I don't wanna go through no sundown town.

[Sheila Marie]

Right.

[Imani Bashir]

They literally have a mechanism in the app to reroute you outside of sundown towns, and it integrates with your Google Maps. Wow. So it'll reroute you around places where you're like, I don't wanna go through this part of Texas or this part of wherever. You know what I mean? So I would say that. I would definitely say whether it's an airtag tile, whatever you need something to keep track of your stuff. So whatever that looks like, you know the way. Missing or. Yeah, thankfully, I have been blessed to where, like, I've had delays in terms of my baggage, but never something like actually, like, holistically missing. But I keep a little tile in my bag.

[Sheila Marie]

I didn't even think of that. Even in your luggage, like, when you travel.

[Imani Bashir]

Oh, I keep one in every piece of luggage that I have. I make sure they're fully charged and they're connected to whatever app that I have. So that way, if something happens, I'm like, oh, it never left the airport, so can somebody look for it?

[Sheila Marie]

That is so smart. I bet that is going to save so many people so much trouble, because, you know, they'd be clueless. Oh, I don't know where it is. Maybe it's here, maybe it's not. Did it get on the plane?

[Imani Bashir]

I don't know. Listen, and the way these people play with your bags, they'll just play and move or it never gets on the flight or whatever the case may be. I would say another starting point, especially in the. The time that we're in right now. Please, my folks get a passport. It is not necessarily required for domestic travel, but by May 7, everyone's going to need a real ID. A passport is a real ID. A passport is also proof of citizenship, which is a huge thing right now. Citizenship is under attack, even if it's birthright citizenship and get a passport, please. And then also because you have that passport, it's good for 10 years. And in the event there's an opportunity for you to travel abroad, you may not have the money right now, and that's okay. But eventually there may be an opportunity for you to work somewhere, be somewhere, go somewhere, and you already had that document. There's just so many protections for you with having a passport that is so Necessary, so necessary.

[Sheila Marie]

And I keep hearing the conversation about the real ID and I'm like, wait, I need to go get a real ID now or I won't be able to board a flight.

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[Imani Bashir]

It's. It's wild how things are changing so rapidly. But yes, for those who do not know the reason that they're doing all this, who knows? But by May 7, if you don't have a real ID, you're not even going to be able to get on a domestic flight. So if you're going from like D.C. to go visit your family in Atlanta, you're not gonna be able to board your flight. So you know, please, please, please, please try your best. If it's a state id, a license, but like I said, I recommend people getting even. If it's a passport card, you can't afford the passport book. At least start with the card, something that you could keep in your wallet. Some people get both because they don't wanna walk around everywhere with their passport. So get the passport card. It's less expensive and it looks like an ID card. You can keep it in your wallet.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, that's a good tip. I've never even heard of a passport card before. I didn't even know it existed.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah, so it's literally passport card is only for like land and sea. So let's say you wanted to drive to Canada, you could use your passport card versus using your actual passport book. And maybe if you're taking a cruise. So let's say you're going from Miami to the Bahamas, you Won't need your passport book per se. You could just use the car, something like that. So it's only just land and sea if you're, if you're getting on a boat or if you're like driving through or walking through. Some people walk through more.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, okay. Period. Get it how you live.

[Imani Bashir]

Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. So I want to set the stage for this interview by talking about your background because I feel like it really influences the way you conceptualize black folks and travel. So I know that you were born in Maryland, but I feel like you've lived everywhere. Every time I watch a video from you, you're mentioning a new place that you've lived. I'm like, dang, I thought I did a lot of travel, but you really have. So can you just tell us, like, situate us where, Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how that relates to how you feel about travel today.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah, so what's interesting is I'm. I consider myself like a late bloomer when it comes to travel. I didn't get my passport until my 20s because my brother was getting married. My sister in law is Sol Molly, but she's from London and they were getting married in London. So it was like, everybody need to get your passport. You know what I mean? But prior to then, I don't know if I looked at travel in the same way. So I'm from PG County. I'm from PG County, Maryland. And my first kind of like taste of like travel was I started my career in sports broadcasting. And so we would literally go cross country every weekend because we had marketing equipment, so we had to drive in a van and we would broadcast every game every weekend from Labor Day weekend all the way through March Madness. So I got a chance to like, literally drive through the country. We did games in New Orleans, in Atlanta, in Orlando, and we drove everywhere, everywhere we went. And so I was like, this is really cool. Like, you know what I mean? At some point in college, I did the I'm moving to Atlanta thing. I did that for like two years, you know, just up and left. And my mom was like, where are you? Oh, I'm in Atlanta. She's like, okay. Like, did you want to tell anybody? I'm very much a Sagittarius. So, no, I'm not telling anybody. I'm just getting up and go and, you know, just that even experience of doing that on my own and just experiencing life and, you know, that kind.

[Sheila Marie]

Of thing, it's really important.

[Imani Bashir]

Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? I Didn't want to be bound by anybody else's fears of, like, I don't know, what do you. I was like, I just want to go. I just want to try it. I just want to see. And if I don't like it, maybe I'll come back home. And then I had the opportunity to go on a girls trip to Puerto Rico. And that was it. Hey, Sheila, Weezy, Wawoni.

[Sheila Marie]

Hey.

[Imani Bashir]

I was out there, and I was like. And I remember we got to San Juan. Thankfully, we didn't have the very, like, touristy experience because one of my friends who invited her cousin, her family was from Puerto Rico. So we got a chance to actually stay at a family member's, like, home. They had, like, an apartment for us. So we just stayed there.

[Sheila Marie]

And.

[Imani Bashir]

And then we got a chance to, like, go to their home, have a Rosco pollo, have, like, you know, like an authentic just experience. We got a chance to go in the rainforest. And, you know, Abuelita was cooking chickens that were running around in the yard and have, like, fresh food and stuff.

[Sheila Marie]

Now I'm hungry.

[Imani Bashir]

And I just remember, like, seeing the people, and I was like, these folks is black. Like, hold up.

[Sheila Marie]

Like, very much, very much these folks.

[Imani Bashir]

On tv, you know, on tv. And not to say that. And I guess you could say, like, I was very ignorant to the idea that I was like, oh, we're everywhere. For real.

[Sheila Marie]

We are. I wish I could remember this statistic off the top of my head, but it was it. Henry Louis Gates Jr. There was a documentary, and I did not know this. The numbers are something I'm paraphrasing, like, of the diaspora, only a hundred thousand enslaved Africans ended up in the New World. The rest, over 10 million, are dispersed throughout Brazil, Latin America, all throughout the world. So it's like, it seems like culturally, and I would say visibility wise, you always think of black Americans, but black, the diaspora, we are everywhere, everywhere.

[Imani Bashir]

And that's the funny part, Sheila, because it's like when we have these goofy diaspora wars, I'm like, we're cousins. We're literally cousins.

[Sheila Marie]

That shit be so tired. I hear them going back and forth online. I'm like, girl, y' all not tired of this? You not tired of this conversation yet.

[Imani Bashir]

It's just. It's the wildest thing to me, because I'm like, oh, foundational black America. What does that even mean? What does that even mean?

[Sheila Marie]

I don't even get into that conversation. Cause I'm like, well, I'm biracial, so I'm Just gonna sit this one out. Cause I know y' all not gonna let me in the conversation, so I'm gonna be quiet. Yeah, look, they be like, I got four black grandparents. I'm like, well, I'll just be quiet.

[Imani Bashir]

And what is that? You know, because ultimately. And what does that mean too, when we talk about, like, just how much our communities were ravaged.

[Sheila Marie]

Correct.

[Imani Bashir]

When it comes to that as well. So some of us may not have four grandparents or great grand or eight great grandparents as a result of something that is really traumatic. And so. And so we don't count. Like, you know what I mean? You don't count.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm like, I'm not gonna be a tragic mulatto. But it's not. I'm like, it is. I just. I would say that there's definitely. I'm gonna acknowledge there's privilege when you're biracial. Because in the States, obviously, unfortunately, your proximity to whiteness does come with certain benefits. Unearned privileges, for sure. However, being ra. Like I was in a very anti black household and being the only black person in the house and not having nobody to help you figure out your hair or tell you that your skin is. Is like that you love it. I mean, I heard microaggressions and outward racism all day, every day. So when I grew up, I was like, I love myself. Like, I want to, like, I want to know. That's why part of my life is like, building that community that I really lacked at, like, at a certain formative time in my life. But to your point, we literally are just a separation from a stop on a boat. Like, it's. We all come from, you know, all the DNA tests. Everybody like, oh, I'm a. What do they say? I'm a 23andMe, West African. You know what I mean? You all find out you come from the same place. So that's why I think traveling is so important and why you are so important because you have such a very unique perspective. The other day I saw a video I love. I love this video too. You were talking about. And you would go to school and you would learn, like, the Christopher Columbus history, and then you would go home and your dad would give you, like, the real tea. And I'm like, I love that. I want to hear more about this because I feel like you are so, you know, so much. Like, I don't know how your brain remember all that stuff. I feel like I forget stuff all the time. But you just seem like you have a really well rounded sense of the world. And I would love to know how your dad and your family life contributed.

[Imani Bashir]

To that step into the world of.

[Sheila Marie]

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[Imani Bashir]

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[Sheila Marie]

Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.

[Imani Bashir]

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[Imani Bashir]

That's funny, because I think that about my dad. Like, if you ask him about, like, any point in history, like, he can tell you dates, he can name names. He could do all the things. So I'm not quite there. Right.

[Sheila Marie]

He's Muslim as well, right? Yes. So your whole family is Muslim.

[Imani Bashir]

And that's a part of my upbringing, too, and that's a part of my story as well, is that my father's side comes from generational Islam, where a lot of folks and some of the things that I tried to talk about, you know, in terms of black American history is like, hey, some of those folks that were on that boat were Muslim. And these are ways that they actually kept their Islam. I don't know how long we're going to have the African American history museum in D.C. but if you are blessed to go there, there are artifacts from enslaved Muslims. Scarves, Quranic writings, thicker beads. Thicker beads look very similar to rosary beads. But we use to, like, say different things to praise God. Right? And so a lot of people don't know that. So they don't know that. Like, generationally, specifically, in what is known as the United States, black folks were the first Muslims here, the first to practice, the first to pray to first to fast during Ramadan. The enslaved Muslims fasted during Ramadan. And they have the evidences and the history, which is why we cannot allow folks to take away our history, because that is who we are at the core. And so ultimately, one of the things I remember talking to my grandfather before he passed away and him telling me that my father's mother, my paternal grandmother, and my grandfather actually had to go to court to fight to keep our family name, Bashir, because they were considered Negroes, but they didn't have a Negro name. And so they actually had to go to court. They had a Jewish attorney, and they went to court, and they fought for us to keep our name. So, like, Coming from a lineage of a very proud black Muslim people. And then, like, just understanding the stories of my dad, my dad was born in 1953 with the name Muhammad, you know what I mean? And I'm like, you're going to civil rights in Jersey? My dad is from Jersey. Well, both my parents are from Jersey. And so my grandfather's from the South. My father's father is from the South. His mother is from the South. And then obviously, you know, as most black families that are in the north, they migrated. My grandfather had to leave. He was warned to leave Florida, where he was from, and made his way up north. And so, yeah, my father's from New Jersey. Literally, he was like, I remember where it was only, like, two Muslim families in the whole state, if that. You know what I mean? And so that's where my teachings come from. My father had, like, a multi tiered boy bookshelf. And we didn't come from an age where, like, I remember when we got our first computer. So everything that we wanted to know or learn was not, like. And it was no immediate answer. My dad was like, hey, go look that up. And you couldn't ever bypass him telling you that, because then he'd ask, okay, what did you find? What did you see? And so those were the things that he would do with us, whether we were doing a history project or. Or something. You know, he would say, hey, this is what it is that they're telling you in school. Here's the real story, and here's where you can find this. So we never got the, like, Christopher Columbus discovered America lesson. That was never the case. We already knew about the Trail of Tears. We already knew what it is that they did to indigenous people. We already knew how they injected disease into, you know, this land and wiped out, you know, these groups of massive people. We knew Thanksgiving was not no Kumbaya, sit down and have some turkey. You know what I mean? And so imagine growing up as a kid. These are your lessons.

[Sheila Marie]

What was that like when you would go home and learn something and then go to school the next day. And your teacher might say something that conflicts what you learned at home.

[Imani Bashir]

So it's empowering on one end because you. You get a true idea of who it is that you are. But then at the same time, it's like, you can't necessarily flex that muscle in a school setting. You learn that you can't necessarily be combative in terms of saying, that's not true, that's not right, that's false. And you almost Kind of begin, like, toeing the line at a very young age because you're like, I can't be the one to boisterously put those things out there. Because my father, and he tells this story to this day, he said he was that kid. And in the third grade, he was put in remedial classes because he talked too much, because he questioned things, because he, you know, would compare and contrast what it is that he was talking about.

[Sheila Marie]

Very unruly of your dad.

[Imani Bashir]

Very unruly. Very Sagittarius of him. Okay, very Sagittarius. But, yeah, so it was kind of like. And then also for me, identity wise, it was like, how do I take pride in something that I'm constantly being told is not something to be proud of? I'm, like, one of the only Muslims that I know. I have a very unique name in comparison to all of my friends. Um, you know, everyone's like, oh, you don't eat pork. You know what I'm saying? And so as a kid, yeah, it's empowering in your household. When you step outside in the world and nobody else is mirroring that. They're not mirroring that energy. They're not mirroring what things look like in your household. You almost shrink.

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[Sheila Marie]

No purchase necessary VGW Group void where prohibited by law 21/ terms and conditions apply. Do you still shrink?

[Imani Bashir]

No.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. I was gonna say I don't think.

[Imani Bashir]

So, but I wanted to ask God, no.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, good. I want to ask about being Muslim, and it affects how you see the world. That's so interesting that you talked about the erasure of Islam, because I had no idea. It was like. It's almost like this common assumption that enslaved Africans were Either were practicing their own tribal religions, animistic religions, and then they got indoctrinated with Christianity. I pretty much never hear about the foundations of Islam, so I want to know, how does it affect how you see the world and how you move? Yeah.

[Imani Bashir]

So the interesting thing is what you'll hear from folks. Sometimes they'll be like, oh, they were forcefully converted through the Arab Slave trade. And one of the things that I'll push back on when people have that is that, number one, it almost assumes that black African folks, and I say black, comma, African, not that they're black African, like there's any other ideology in terms of race there, but it almost assumes that they were just these gullible people that walked into this thing or that they were just a people that willfully had to submit to this thing. And these people, right, don't need to get into the history of that. People can feel free to look up those things on their own. But from what it is that I understand, especially if you look at the Western Cape of Africa, right, the Islam is very strong in Senegal, in Ghana, in, you know, Nigeria. It's very strong in Western, you know, the Gambia. And so for me, I had an identity crisis for a long time. For a very long time. Because as a kid, you want to be and get peers, right? Yeah. You know what I mean? My mom was so adamant against Halloween, you know, and I'm sure like hardcore Christian friends can understand that as well. You know, like, I couldn't dress up for Halloween. I remember trying to sneak out and like go with one of my friends to a Halloween party because I just wanted to get dressed up. I just wanted to wear a princess dress and like, get some candy. Like, that's all I wanted to do. Like, I just didn't understand and like Christmas, thank God, you know, my mother's parents were not Muslim and they, and my dad was like, they are family and this is what they celebrate. We don't necessarily celebrate that, but this is what they celebrate. And so we got Christmas gifts. Sorry. To my little brother and sister. They missed the mark on that one.

[Sheila Marie]

Dang.

[Imani Bashir]

But my, my older two siblings and myself, we got to experience like my grandfather would put the Christmas lights outside my grandparents home and the Christmas tree and all that. But my father did also instill in us, like, that's not our holiday, that's not what we celebrate. You're here for family, you're here to celebrate, not to celebrate this particular thing. And so, yeah, for me, it was, it was a, it was a mind mess for a while because I was like, who do I really want to be in this? Does this make sense? Nobody else I know is Muslim and things of that nature. And then one of the things that I remember that my dad always used to say to me is that read other things, look into other things, read about other faiths, read about other spirituality. Um, and then in addition to That I love that. Oh yeah, I love that. Like he didn't play around with being a well rounded and an open minded person. Like, it was like, kudos to your.

[Sheila Marie]

Parents and your dad. Kudos.

[Imani Bashir]

Very blessed. It was, it was a blessing because it allowed me to say, like, oh, a lot of this stuff is very similar, you know what I mean? But then also, as I grew into my womanhood, it was really a matter of what does this mean to me? Not to my dad, not to my mom, not to the rest of the world. What is my Islam in terms of how it is that I see it, how it is that I see myself and the connection that I have with God. Like, how does that make sense for me? And once I've made that journey, a very umbilical journey, it's just me and the big dog, it wasn't like, it wasn't any issues that I had with how it is that I attached myself to the faith in and of itself when I was like, you know what, this is just a path to God and this is the path that I'm choosing for myself. And in the rituals of how it is that we do, whether it's fasting, whether it's praying, whether it's giving charity and those specific pillars that we have, those are just the pillars in which we have to reach God consciousness. And so when I looked at it like that, it became, now it's not the easiest thing, like praying five times a day. Girl, I'mma try, I'mma try my best, I'm a try, you know what I mean? But in terms of like the connection that I have with God, it's mine, it's no one else's. Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

That reminds me of one of the messages from the book, the Life of PI. And have you, Are you familiar? Yeah, yeah, you do, you are, of course, of course. You just told me you read encyclopedias. But for those of you listening, so Life of PI is like about this boy and he goes on this journey on this boat. He's stranded at sea and he says, oh, a tiger came and helped me and I can't remember the other, and maybe a monkey, there are these other animals and then he washes up on shore. He has this whole journey with these animals that nobody saw but him. And at the end of the book he's in the hospital and he's telling everybody the story. Ah, it was Richard Parker, it was this tiger and, and he had this and this. And they're like, yeah, sure, sure. And at the end of the book, it's like, well, what. What works for you? Whatever works for you to grasp the story. If he was out there with these animals and they were animated and they were talking to him, if that's what gets him through it, then that's fine. If it never happened and it was all in his mind and he created these animals and that got him through it, okay, fine. So whatever works for you to conceptualize the story, to. To conceptualize your world and make sense of yourself, go for it. Like, like you said, if you study religion, you do get to know that a lot of this is very similar, and it can be just changed by where people are in the world, the sun, the weather, what these, you know, what types of culture and societies, what, who was in power, all of those things. So I love that you said that. I want to touch on one more thing before I explore. I want to ask you about motherhood, but before I do that. Ramadan.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

This. This was the first time I saw it being on social media a lot this year. Are not Muslim. Were actually interested in observing Ramadan. And even me and my husband, we were talking about it too, and he was like, well, I don't want to just do something that I don't know, you know, you don't want to be. You know, we don't play with that. We have a very high level of spiritual integrity and respect. But we did our own fasts here. We did. We did fasts with his daughter, Sailor. We all did a fast. She gave up her phone. You know, I gave up wine, and they. And. And then he also did, like, a more serious fast, too. But I just want one thing I really liked was you. You. You made a video during that time, and you were kind of inviting people that. You don't have to be Muslim to celebrate Ramadan.

[Imani Bashir]

No, absolutely not. I think one of the things that, like, you know, and you'll find some, like, hysterical person that's like, no, this is just for us. And it's like, okay, the commandment of fasting in terms of, like, the five pillars of ISL are for Muslims. Like, we are required. Once you hit a certain age, if you have a certain level of health, you know what I mean? Et cetera. Yes. You are required as a Muslim to fast because it's a part of our five pillars. But I think anything that grows you, anything that gives you stillness, anything that connects you, that that grounds you is good for you. And the more people that were in my comments saying, hey, I want to try it, I'm like, absolutely, and if you can find community in it, if you have Muslim friends. Cause I envy that. I'm like, I wish in all these 38 years that I have friends that were like, hey, I want to fast with you.

[Sheila Marie]

Because it's such a community. It feels like at the breaking the fast and, you know, it's a community endeavor kind of. Yeah.

[Imani Bashir]

And just ultimately, it's just one of those things that, like you said, and I love the way that you all have orchestrated it in your own home in the way that you have, you know, because Lent is similar, you know, people were like, okay, I'm going to give up this. I'm not going to watch TV until this time. I'm not going to shop. I'm not gonna, you know, like, do the things.

[Sheila Marie]

That was another thing too. I'm like, okay, I'm already in the boycott. So, like, don't order on Amazon.

[Imani Bashir]

I was like, ah, you know, but. But these are things, like, these are positive things. These are great things. These are amazing things. But also the point in which I try to stress to people is like, the point of Ramadan in those 30 days is that it takes, they say, about 30 days to build a habit. Right. Scientifically, research has shown that it takes you 30 days. That if you build that habit and you can go throughout past that 30 days. And that's the point. The point is that, like, if you're gluttonous, if you're, you know, a consumer of just random things, if you're always spending money, if you're always, you know, not spending time with your kids, whatever it is, in these 30 days, you build the dexterity to say, you know what? I'm going to be better at doing the things I should be doing. So that way, day 31, you're not going back to where you were at day one or before day one, you're in continuation of saying, I'm not gonna curse everybody out in traffic. I'm gonna still try to be poised and polite and as kind as I can possibly be, because I wanna continue to extend that. So, yeah, I invited as many people or even people that were in my comments that were like, are you sure that I can do this? And I'm like, absolutely. This is a communal thing. That's what community is about, you know. And I think people, you know, the more that I saw it, I was. Was absolutely moved by it.

[Sheila Marie]

Me too. When I was watching P. I was like, this is beautiful. And there's so much to be gained from those types of practices. Okay, let's talk about you as a mommy. You. I. So one of my close friends, he, he owns, he's Chinese as well. He owns a luggage company and he had just had a baby and he, they, his wife is American, but he's Chinese. And she was like, I'm not giving birth in America. And she just gave birth in China. And they were saying how amazing her experience was. And I'm jealous. Okay. I feel like even on a spiritual level, that's a part of the reason why I don't have my own yet, because I know the type of experience that I desire and it's kind of tricky in the States. Can you tell us for all the. We're just listening from ghetto ass America, like, tell us, how was your experience giving birth in China?

[Imani Bashir]

Firstly, let me just say I've watched your transparency on social media. Oh, thank you. Your openness. We need that. You know, this journey is not a linear journey for everyone. It is hard. It's very hard. So I applaud you for being so open with us, you know, your sisters of online community and saying, hey, here's where I'm at and this is what I'm trying. And, and you know, and yeah, kudos to you for that.

[Sheila Marie]

Thank you. Just the reason is I just decided that this, this was not gonna be a point of shame for me anymore.

[Imani Bashir]

Never.

[Sheila Marie]

Because I think that people can shame you and hold it over your head. You don't have children, you don't have children, this and that. And I'm like, I'm not gonna be shamed by this. This is an experience. And the more I share, the more I realize so many women, especially millennial women, especially the women who were told to go to college, which is great advice, by the way. We were giving great advice. It did come from a good place. Who were told to not put a man first, make sure you put your career first, do all the things. And then that made us enter and think about motherhood later. A lot of us are going through this, so I feel like it's a source of pride for me now as opposed to shame. And that was really, it was kind of a selfish goal. And so I'm glad that it helped and inspired people along the way.

[Imani Bashir]

I'm very much proud of that. And even for myself, when I first moved abroad, I was headed to 30 years and I had kind of given up the idea of even becoming a mom and even getting. Yeah, like, I was very clear that when I bought this one way ticket out of the US that I was like well, that's it, you know, like, it's. It's like, I tried.

[Sheila Marie]

So this wasn't a situation where you were like, I'm pregnant and I want to give birth in China.

[Imani Bashir]

So what ended up happening was when I first moved abroad, so I moved in 2015. My son was born in 2017. Actually met my son's father abroad in Egypt. He's black. He's from East Buffalo, New York. And he was living in Cairo, and I was living in Cairo. And then when we got married, these were very early conversations. Like, even in, like, the dating process, like, how do you want to give birth? And how many kids do you want? Like, we had those conversations, girl. We watched, I don't know if you remember, Ricki Lakes, the Business of Being Born. Yeah, we watched that scene.

[Sheila Marie]

It changed my life, you know? Oh, my God. You got. That's a gym shout out to that.

[Imani Bashir]

Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. I'm about to go make Twan watch it with me too.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah, Got to.

[Sheila Marie]

It changed my life, that documentary or the way I see childbirth in the States.

[Imani Bashir]

Oh, yeah. But for me, the history of my father's mother is why I never wanted to give birth in a hospital and why I never wanted to give birth in the US Once I got older. So my father's mother was a victim of maternal mortality due to misdiagnosis. My dad's the oldest of eight. He was 16 years old. He left to go to school. One day, he came back, his mother was no longer there.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, my goodness.

[Imani Bashir]

She walked herself to the hospital pregnant with a set of twins, and she did not come back home. And so in knowing that story of my. My paternal grandmother, this woman that, like, has everyone's eyes in my father's family and has this amazing smile that looks like my oldest sister. What I know of her most is that. And that always scared me. It always scared me. And so when I met my son's father, I was like, yeah, don't wanna do that in the States. And this is what ended up happening. Cause people are like, oh, like, how did you plan it? So. So when I did get pregnant with my son, we traveled the entirety of my pregnancy. So we were in China for six weeks. We spent a month in Thailand. I was like, I consider that, like, my baby moon. And then at the time, he was coaching football, our style of football, American football, for pro teams outside of the United States. And he had two contracts, one in Poland and one in Illinois, not Chicago, somewhere southern Illinois. Okay. He had two contracts. Okay. So I was like, maybe we should just go back to the States because like, this is our first baby. It'll be easier for people to come to us. And you know, this, that, and you plan and God laughs. Because I feel like internally Allah knew that I did not want to have this baby in the state. Like, I didn't, I really didn't. And I was, was ultimately trying to make a decision on behalf of other people, which. How far does that get you sometimes? Right. What ended up happening was the contract that he had in Illinois. They had like messaged him and was like, yeah, like we don't have enough in the budget to get you your own like place. We're pretty much like going to have you room with the other coach. And my ex husband was like, hey, I'm not doing wife and we're about to have a kid, like, whatever. So he took the deal in Poland. And so my son was born in a city called Szczecin, Poland. And obviously we did our research. I found a midwife. I reached out to the midwife. I had wanted a home birth, but I wasn't sure if they were somewhere that supported that in terms of Europe, they traditionally do. But I just wanted to see. And what ended up happening was I ended up going into labor like almost a week early. Did not know I was in labor. And so we had our son through an unassisted birth, a medically unassisted birth at home, in the middle of our living room in.

[Sheila Marie]

In Poland or in China?

[Imani Bashir]

In Poland.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, so I'm sorry I said China. Why did I think that?

[Imani Bashir]

No, well, because we were in China for a few years, but my son was born in Poland.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, I'm sorry, I want to correct you. Okay, okay. You so unassisted, meaning nobody but you too.

[Imani Bashir]

It was just us.

[Sheila Marie]

And you knew what to do.

[Imani Bashir]

You know, I wanna say. Cause I'm like, I don't necessarily put that as like a recommendation. Right. Because you know, we do know our bodies, we know what we feel. And also there are professionals.

[Sheila Marie]

Correct.

[Imani Bashir]

So I don't wanna be the person that's like, yeah, everybody should go out and just do this on your own. We were very blessed that we breathed through these contractions. Like because I went into labor, I had a 22 hour labor. So I went into labor the night before. Didn't know I was in labor. I thought I was having Braxton Hicks. Cause I wasn't expecting him to come. My son was born February 27, but his due date was March 5, so I wasn't expecting him to show up you know what I mean? And so I didn't even tell my ex husband, like, he was sleep. I would just get in the shower and just kind of like let the hot water like just kind of run on my belly. And that kind of relaxed me for a while. And then it started intensifying and I was like, hey, I think. I think I'm in labor. And then we just started doing breathing exercises, kept the lights low, candlelight affirmations. And I was like. And so there was a woman that was in Poland. Her name is Camila. Love her, to this day, she's still my Polish auntie. I was like, do we need to. Should we call her? But it was literally the middle of the night. And I was like, we'll see how far we get until it's necessary to call.

[Sheila Marie]

Cause you really didn't think the baby was gonna come that night?

[Imani Bashir]

I did not. And I'm like, ignorance is bliss, I guess, because I didn't panic, you know, there was no moment. Well, towards the end it was like, okay, what's happening? Cause we're like at hour 18 19, and I'm just like, I got a lot of pain going on and I don't know what's going on. And literally my water broke as I was like straddled on a yoga ball. And it shot up. Like, it shot up. And like, we just laughed. And within minutes, my son was right there. Oh, yeah, shout out to that.

[Sheila Marie]

He was like, I'm just ready to come into the world right now.

[American Express Representative]

Yeah.

[Imani Bashir]

I was like, sorry, we didn't have to go through all of this, to be honest with you. Like, if you just wanted to get here, like, we could have just cut off about 20 hours. I love that.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, so this is something new. I have never heard the term third culture kid until today. In doing research, you know, preparing for you, that was one of the terms that came up. And I was like, like third culture kids. So this is what I. This is what I looked up and you tell me if I got it right or not. A third culture kid. Tck. Is a person who has spent a significant part of their developmental years outside of their parents culture, often due to their parents international work or other circumstances, and who develops a unique sense of identity and belonging that is neither fully rooted in their parents culture nor the culture of their host country. How did we do?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Are you raising a third culture kid?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Tell me about that.

[Imani Bashir]

So what's interesting is like, so my son's lived in five countries, he's eight. So just Imagine all the cultural identities he's been, like, face to face with. So when we were in China, that was the first language he was learning. Like, he could order his food in Mandarin. And at that time, he was about 2 years old. How cute. Pandemic happened. We ended up stuck in Malaysia, came back through Europe, ended up in the States for a little bit, and then we moved to Mexico. When we got to Mexico, he actually started school at three years old. They had a. Had. They have an international school. Really great international school there. He knew no Spanish, so I was very worried.

[Sheila Marie]

Were you at this time, were you traveling as a unit, you, your husband and your child?

[Imani Bashir]

And so we were still traveling as a unit. Yep.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. And so how are you guys doing all the traveling? Is it because of his job is remote or. Yep. So, okay.

[Imani Bashir]

The way that his job was, because he was a coach, it would be based on, like, the contract that he had with the team at the time. So we went from. In our marriage, specifically, we went from Egypt to China. Right. Back to Egypt, back to China. We went to Malaysia. We went to. Through Europe. They did, like, a stint in the Czech Republic. And then to Mexico. Yeah. But Mexico was literally as a result of the pandemic because everything was shut down. So it was like, we didn't want to go back to the States, but we also wanted to go somewhere where, like, we could have some sense of, like, normalcy, especially with having a child so young, as, you know, Nasir, I'm like, there's no way he's gonna be able to just stay in the house, you know? So when we found that Mexico was open, that their borders were open, we were like, yeah, let's go there.

[Sheila Marie]

And so where do you guys live now?

[Imani Bashir]

So I'm currently based in D.C. i've since got a divorce. So I'm a divorcee. Praise the Lord. And so I'm based in D.C. congratulations.

[Sheila Marie]

That's what I said.

[Imani Bashir]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

I think it's. And by the way, if you're listening, you're like, why did you say congratulations? No woman who's happy in a marriage gets a divorce. If a woman is getting a divorce, that means she is opening up herself to more love and she's choosing herself. So that's why I say congratulations.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. I just wanted to say that. Okay, so you live in the States right now with baby boy?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. And so is he in a traditional public school right now?

[Imani Bashir]

So he goes to a bilingual school.

[Sheila Marie]

Amazing.

[Imani Bashir]

So he's fluent in Spanish, and so we wanted to make sure that he kept that. And also because, you know, when you go through a divorce, and for us, it wasn't just a divorce of each other in terms of, you know, his parents. It was also a divorce of like our life and how we had it in Mexico. That's where his more formative years were built. Where he started to build community, where. Where he started to have friends and birthday parties and, you know, sleepovers and, and things. Not necessarily sleepovers, but, you know, things of that nature. And really like. Yeah, and really getting like a community base. And so it was like, oh, yeah. So we're gonna have to change that and you're gonna have to come to this place that I never thought I'd ever come back to ever again. Because at the time my dad, you know, when I decided to come back to the US My dad was also having some health issues and I had to make a decision of like, I could have very well stayed in Mexico. But also I was like, I. If I have more time to have with him, I would love my son to have some time with him as well.

[Sheila Marie]

So that's beautiful. Is there one attribute or quality that your son has that you think is like a direct result of him being a global citizen?

[Imani Bashir]

Oh, yeah. He's one of the most inquisitive kids that you'll ever meet. He loves to learn.

[Sheila Marie]

I love it.

[Imani Bashir]

He loves to learn. What does that, what does this mean? Hey, I learned about this. This is pretty cool. I learned that this happened. Hey, mom, we went to Egypt before. Didn't we see the pyramids? I saw a picture today about that in school. Like, he's such the coolest kid. Cause it's like, I didn't necessarily like learning. I like the social component of school. So like to see him. He loves to learn. He loves to learn new things. And I honestly do believe that that's as a result of us, you know, being so many places.

[Sheila Marie]

That's beautiful. I wanna touch on being a black expat. You said once, like, being a traveler of color is a privilege I don't take for granted. And I realizing traveling is not a right that everyone has. So I wonder. So there's a part of me who's thinking more and more about leaving the States. Like it just, it just keeps coming up, like more in a more real sense all the time. As things escalate politically and as they squeeze capital, late stage capitalism, squeeze the life out of everybod. Everybody here. I wonder, how do you feel about us? I. I'm Like, I. I want to think about other places to live in the world, but I don't want us to replicate colonizer ideology and passport, the passport privilege and all of those things. So how do you feel about that?

[Imani Bashir]

So let me start off by saying, because there'll probably be people in the comments that'll be like, don't use the word expat. You're an immigrant. And let me be very clear, because people have done this to me so often when I have used the word expatriate. Expat and immigrant words mean things. There's a place and time and place to use the word expat. An expatriate is someone who traditionally is a bit more nomadic and doesn't have, like, a finite timeline that they're gonna be. I'm gonna. I'm forever leaving. Like, they may come back, right? So when we think of, like, Maya Angelou, James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, like, they were expats, they lived in different places, they ended up back in the States. You know what I mean? Immigrant traditionally is somebody who, like, permanently, I'm out of here. I'm out of here. I'm moving. And also, I also need to denote that the stain of what it is to be an immigrant was chosen by not us. Right? So I have no problem with someone identifying me as an immigrant in places that I go. But I want us to also not, like, act like, you know, that the stain of what it is to be an immigrant versus expat wasn't set in terms of a hierarchy. And certain people specifically get a chance to call themselves expats versus immigrants. People who are retiring abroad, you are an immigrant. People who. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, there is distinctions that people often are like, no, you're not an expat, you're an immigrant, et cetera. But it's okay that words mean things. It is not okay that words that mean things are demonized against one set of folks over another set of folks. So I just want to establish that for the audience, for the room. Um, but ultimately, I think that, like, when you're. When you're thinking about going places, it's important to identify what is best for you. Like you were talking about earlier, you're like, hey, I want to expand my family. And the consideration of, like, the black mortality rate in the United States of America being as high as it is for a country that is not considered, quote, unquote, Third World is abysmal.

[Sheila Marie]

Abysmal.

[Imani Bashir]

You know what I mean? And to be a black woman in this country and saying, hey, I actually want to have a child. But just the fear in and of itself could change the trajectory of how it is that your body can really receive money, you know, this journey. And so I will say, like, I always tell people, I'm like, take the things that like, you feel like are the parts of your quality of life. Because one of the things I really want to highlight is that the whole part of getting out of the United States is to slow down. You're not speeding up. You don't need to speed up. You don't need to become a millionaire. You don't need to. You don't need to buy a six, six room bedroom house. You live modestly, you live well, you live slow. You know what I mean? You take your time. I remember getting to Poland and one thing that like I kind of smile at is that I would go into the grocery store and the people count out their change on the counter. They count every single cent. And I remember being in there, like just pregnant belly and just like, what is happening? What is going on to the point that like, I'm like a couple of weeks in and like I'm counting my change on the counter.

[Sheila Marie]

Right.

[Imani Bashir]

Things are so much slower outside of the US in terms of like just, just how it is that like, everything is not such a rush to do.

[Sheila Marie]

And so, yeah, urgency is a tenet of white supremacy culture for sure. Oh, God. Everything is urgent all the time. It's like, these emails are not urgent. No one's dying. Yeah, I feel like, yeah. A lot of black people, I feel like, are trying to reclaim a little bit of their space and time because it's just, it's such a grind here. I don't know about you, but I definitely noticed that during the pandemic I was like, whoa, feel like I'm on a treadmill. And I just turned it off. Like, I don't wanna run anymore, you know?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah. Cause there's a constancy of something that's telling you you need to have seven streams of income. You need to have this, this, that, and the third, you need to have, you know, here and here and here. I remember being in Egypt and my son's father at the time and myself both being unemployed for him, specifically his job. For some reason they didn't send him his money. And I had stopped teaching at the time because we were transitioning. We thought another job was coming up. It did not happen. So she and I both ended up unemployed at the same time. And our Quality of life did not change how it did not change. Cost of living is lower. Right. Whatever money that we can put to the side, like bills were paid for. I don't have a $200 electric bill. You know what I mean? I don't have a car note, I don't have car insurance, I don't have health insurance, I don't have, you know, I don't have all of these other out of pocket expenses outside of my day to day living necessities. That's it. So where it is that in the States, you got a car note, you might have multiple car notes, you got student loans, you got a pick a bill.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah. Car insurance, expensive electricity, you got wi Fi, you got a cell phone bill, you got, I don't know, if you have a house, you get a lawn bill. Like there's all these things just, you.

[Imani Bashir]

Know what I mean? Just the everyday maintenance and upkeep of your home. You know what I mean is a whole huge bill. That wasn't stuff that we had to worry about or focus on. So we were still going to the movies, going out to eat, going to, you know, because it, it's such a different existence. Um, and like I said, it's. It not like I said, but it's not easy. It's just easier.

[Sheila Marie]

Yep. I feel like you just choose your heart.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

So some will say that a digital nomadic lifestyle is just gentrification with the passport. How could we move through the world ethically without becoming part of the problem?

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah, I'm, I'm glad you brought that back because I've talked about it a lot and one of the things that I caution people from doing, and I know people like to do it, and people do it in my comments all the time, they're like, oh, where are we in these countries? Where are other black Americans? And I'm like, that's not what we need to do. Right. Because we often get upset when other folks do that. When they come to the U.S. they create their own enclaves of community. They keep us out of it. They keep us at arm's length. Like, oh, y' all over here, you know, they hire their own. They do those things. And those things are offensive to us in terms of, hey, you're coming into our communities, but you're not ingratiating yourself with us. You're not learning who we are. You're not treating us as though.

[Sheila Marie]

I never thought about that.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah. It's like, we've been here. How dare you come in here and get this store and Then put some bars and some, some, some gun proof glass on here. And you don't know nobody from this neighborhood. You know, how dare you, you know, call the police on our children. How dare you? You know, you don't know because you don't know the culture of who it is that we are. And so ultimately I tell people to treat, give it that same energy going to other places. Build your community with folks on the ground. Build your community with folks who know the languages, who know the culture, who know the ins and outs, the day to day, et cetera. Now, obviously, you're gonna find us. We're gonna be everywhere. When I say us, I mean black Americans. We're literally on every. I found us on every corner of the globe. Every corner of the globe. But I think the best foot forward is to engage in the community there, to be a part of the community there. In my time in Mexico, I never lived in an expat community. I never lived in a community like people tout Merida. Shout out to Merida.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, I heard about that a lot.

[Imani Bashir]

And they're like, oh, it's so many black Americans there and it's no shade. I obviously want to see my folks, but I also don't want to create an enclave of community that is now pushing out Mexicans from living the euphoria that we get to live in a place. So I'm gonna live, number one, somewhere where people are making salaries comparable to mine. I'm gonna live somewhere where people's children are in school with my son. We're going to the same birthday parties. I'm inviting you to the birthday parties, we're doing the backyard barbecues, et cetera, et cetera. And also I'm gonna give myself the opportunity to learn the language through you, you know what I mean, and speak to you and do those things and learn what's customary and things of that nature. So for me, I take pride in that, that when I'm going to another place that I'm not trying to, you know, push out, you know, or even sidestep the people of that land. They deserve to say, hey, we're here, you know, are we welcome? That's number one. You're like, you know, are we welcome here? Okay, cool. We're welcome. Great. Bring you a casserole, you know what I mean? So I think that's one of the ways, and always supporting local communities, local establishments, local. I mean, I loved going to side street food places in Egypt and not the little high end, little, you know, the stuff that they have. And what? I'm not going to McDonald's. It's not happening. You know what I mean? I'm gonna get my tostadas in Mexico from the guy who's on the corner up here. I'm gonna get my fresh juices from the guy that's on the other corner over here. I'm gonna support the local people. You know what I mean? I'm gonna do my best.

[Sheila Marie]

As you should.

[Imani Bashir]

Absolutely.

[Sheila Marie]

I love that.

[Imani Bashir]

And if I'm renting a place, that person better dang well be from where it ain't. Better not be German or Russian unless I'm in Germany or Russia.

[Sheila Marie]

These are very important factors that I would have. Have probably not considered hadn't you brought them up. That's like. And there is, like, such good keys for how to move. Mindfully. I was definitely looking up being a black expat, and Merida was like, one of the first places that came up over and over and over again. I'm like, this looks so cool. And now I'm like, no, you're absolutely right. Before we get into the toolkit part of the section, I just want to honor the fact that you helped 15 people get passports in 2025. And you should get your flowers. Okay, I wanna know, is that endeavor over? What is going on with that? Cause I know.

[Imani Bashir]

No, it's not over. Thankfully, I still got a chance to. People started donating. I have a gifts and go campaign because at one point, I had got kicked out of the creator funnel on TikTok because someone flagged one of my videos because I said, I'm doing this initiative for black people. Folks only.

[Sheila Marie]

Of course they're men.

[Imani Bashir]

And the person commented like, oh, you have to be the right race for her to help. And so they flagged my video. I got kicked out of the creator fund, and I was using that money to pay for people because I'm like, I don't want people to spend their money. Like, the point is that I understand the disparities that we have financially is why we can't spend $165 on a passport. Like, it's like, we gotta feed ourselves. We gotta clothe ourselves. We gotta house ourselves. We gotta house our kids, you know? So I was like, okay, I will just use my creator fund money and do that. So when I got kicked out, I was like, oh, no. But thankfully, people were like, no, we want to see you. Keep it going. How can I donate? How can I. So people donate. I've had people sponsor a whole Passport. They've donated $165. And they're like, I want to sponsor a whole passport.

[Sheila Marie]

I love it. I love it.

[Imani Bashir]

And so, yeah, I keep it going. I'm actually going to go live again. I've tried to do, like, week to week because almost 10,000 people submitted for this password initiative. And I never in my wildest, when I put that video out at the end of December, I never thought. I think within 24 hours, I had 1500 people submit to get their passport paid for. And I only had a goal of 100 people. Of, like, paying for 100 people. So when I saw 1500, I was like, okay, okay.

[Sheila Marie]

All right.

[Imani Bashir]

And as the months have gone on and as I've continued to, like, you know, do went up to, like, 9,400 people.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow.

[Imani Bashir]

And I was just like, the demand is clearly there. It's there. And my goal, you know, my goal was to ultimately, like, try to work with a brand that is like, hey, hey, insert travel brand. Or, hey, insert brand that says that they care about people. Like, this is a great initiative. The demand is there. We can really impact some people's lives. It's been a slow roll, but I'm okay with that. You know, like I said, people have donated and contributed to my Gifts and Go campaign. And that's been able to help me to, like, keep going week after week. I get, like, three people a week, and I have to, like, slow walk it that way. But it's been a blessing. I remember I called. I called a woman, she's a teacher in the South. Like, the Deep South. And she was like, you don't understand that. Like, I do not have any extra money. Like, I really wanted my passport, but I just don't have any extra money. And I was like, I know, I know. I know what it's like to be in that position where it's like, I just. I don't have it. You know what I mean? And I just. I feel like if I could eliminate that one barrier where now you do have it. So whatever other options that come, you know, beyond that, Cool. But I at least wanna be the person that's like, hey, I'm going to remove the one barrier. And that's the financial constraint of you being able to go ahead and get yourself a passport. So, yeah, shout out to that. Yeah, yeah. And so for now, you know, those 15 people, I've been extremely proud of that because I'm like, dang, who's doing this? Just like, it's just me. It's just like, it's not a whole team. It's not a whole. Like, it's literally just me. And I'm like. People have really. Like, my first guy. I announced it on January 1st. So I. I did a live, and I went through the countdown through midnight or whatever. Cause I'm like, I want us to start 2020. Cause we knew who was gonna be president at that point. So I was like, I wanna start off 2025, at least on somewhat of a positive. Some positive energy, you know, and. And have a better outlook on things. And a couple of weeks ago, one of my first recipients, he was like, my passport came in the mail. And I just wanna say thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

It's all worth it now.

[Imani Bashir]

Yes, thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

Well, I'm. Well, we just. We wanna give you your flowers about that. Cause that's no small feat. Thank you. And I hope she keeps on going.

[Imani Bashir]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

So we've reached the toolkit part. And this is. They have their unruly toolkit, and every guest puts a little tool in the toolkit. So if you were gonna put a travel tool in there, what would be something you would share? Whether it just be a resource, an idea, an affirmation, anything.

[Imani Bashir]

A travel toolkit. Hmm. Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

A word of advice. Yeah.

[Imani Bashir]

There's an Islamic quote that says, be in the world like a traveler or a wanderer. Along the path is something that I live by and something that, as I go through my womanhood, my motherhood, my travel hood, I think about often because we forget that life is fleeting. So the concept of being in the world as a traveler, it lets you know that things are temporary, but also it's a place of wonderment. Enjoy the things that you learn. Enjoy the people that you meet. Enjoy the. The conversations that you encounter. Enjoy the time spent in the journey. Because we don't have long in the journey. So be in the world like a traveler or a wanderer along the path. You have a path, you have a specific destination, a goal, whatever it is that you're trying to do, wherever it is that you're trying to go, so be in that. With all the inquiry, with all the audacity, with all the unruliness that you have to muster and put out into the world, I love that. Yeah. Period.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm taking that in my toolkit, too. Ooh. Thank you, Imani. This conversation was so educational and fun and insightful. I really enjoyed having this conversation with you. I think your perspective on movement and freedom and black mobility is so necessary. And I know that our listeners are walking away feeling Inspired and having some more information to move. Move throughout the world, and they're gonna be looking for you. So before we get up out of here, where can people find you, follow you, and to help give you bricks to whatever you're building.

[Imani Bashir]

Yeah. So, first of all, thank you. Thank you for all that you do. I'm getting to the unruly retreat at some point. I know I am. I will be getting there.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, we gonna. We gonna get you there, sister. We gonna figure it out.

[Imani Bashir]

But I really appreciate this, and I really appreciate all that you put out into the world. For anyone you know who is looking for me on social media, you can find me at Sheism. I'm on threads, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Instagram, and I'm on TikTok. I also have a newsletter on substack called the Borderless Life, where biweekly, I give a work abroad newsletter for jobs that you can find abroad. A lot of people are oftentimes looking for, like, remote jobs, but I'm like, sometimes you might want a job, like, on the ground just to get a lay of the land, see how you like it. See, your visa gets sponsored that way. Usually your housing gets sponsored that way. So I do this newsletter bi weekly, and I give also just some information and tidbits for people who are really interested in seeking life outside of these walls of the United States.

[Sheila Marie]

Ooh, I am gonna go subscribe to that substack. That sounds amazing. And I am definitely gonna share that to my Patreon supporters as well. Y' all, follow Imani. Support her work, support her mission. And if you've been waiting to get your passport, sister, this is your sign. Okay? Go get it now.

[Imani Bashir]

Now.

[Sheila Marie]

Imani, thank you so much for joining us today. I'll definitely see you on the Internet later. I know, and thank you so much for listening. Stay unruly and stay mobile until next time. Thank you so much for sending that in. And to the rest of the unruly community, if you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, answer. Just send in a voice [e-mail] unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of Unruly.

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[Imani Bashir]

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