39: Permission to Evolve: The Art of the Rebrand ft. Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli

Summary

Podcast Summary: UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE – Episode 39: Permission to Evolve: The Art of the Rebrand ft. Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli

Release Date: June 24, 2025

In Episode 39 of UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE, host Shelah Marie engages in a transformative conversation with Brooke Devard Ozaydinli, a creative strategist, digital tastemaker, mother of two, and the voice behind the acclaimed podcast Naked Beauty. This episode, aptly titled "Permission to Evolve: The Art of the Rebrand," delves deep into the themes of personal growth, authenticity, and the courage required to reinvent oneself both personally and professionally.

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1. Icebreaker: Unveiling Personal Tastes and Preferences ([03:00] - [06:30])

Shelah begins the episode with a light-hearted icebreaker, setting a comfortable tone for the conversation.

• Current Shows: Brooke shares her fascination with Apple TV's original programming, notably The Studio with Seth Rogen and Severance. She comments, "It's very funny... a comedic look at what happens behind the scenes when they're making movies" ([04:06]).

• Fashion Nostalgia: The discussion shifts to the resurgence of capris. Brooke advocates for their comeback, highlighting their versatility and style, saying, "They just look super cute with like an off the shoulder sweater, a little pump" ([05:43]).

• Work Habits: A surprising revelation from Brooke is her non-conformity to the "morning person" stereotype. She candidly admits, "I am not a morning person. Never have been, never will be" ([06:30]).

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2. Navigating Career Evolution and Personal Branding ([10:25] - [18:27])

The conversation transitions to Brooke's journey from a corporate environment to becoming a solo entrepreneur in the beauty industry.

• Dual Roles: Brooke explains how she balances her roles as a founder and a content creator. "I have Brooke Devard, which is my personal channel... Naked Beauty, which is my podcast channel... and my product, the Naked Beauty fragrance" ([10:25]).

• Building Community: She emphasizes the importance of community in brand building, noting, "They are expected to build a community around their products... people want to feel like they're part of a community" ([11:01]).

• Advice for Reluctant Creators: Brooke offers valuable strategies for those hesitant to engage with social media. She advises starting small with platforms like stories and gradually building confidence: "Start speaking directly to camera on stories... slowly but surely move that content onto your feed" ([18:27]).

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3. Embracing Authenticity Over Perfectionism ([16:07] - [23:01])

Shelah and Brooke delve into the pressures of maintaining a perfect image and the liberating power of authenticity.

• Done is Better Than Perfect: Brooke shares her personal tagline, aligning with Shelah’s philosophy: "Done is better than perfect" ([21:10]). They discuss the detrimental effects of perfectionism, especially for mothers juggling multiple roles.

• Real-Life Messiness: Reflecting on Shelah’s friend Sabrina, Brooke states, "I think about all of the content creators that really resonate with me... showing up as your true self... content resonates so much more than the perfectly packaged" ([23:01]).

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4. Balancing Professional Ambition with Personal Fulfillment ([33:34] - [35:40])

The dialogue shifts to the interplay between career success and personal happiness.

• Success Redefined: Brooke articulates a holistic view of success, valuing family and personal well-being as paramount: "My son... likes mom and playing with mom... feeling good in my marriage, feeling good with my children... means all of the career success sort of means nothing" ([35:40]).

• Legacy and Fulfillment: She highlights the deep gratification derived from personal relationships, contrasting it with the hollow pursuit of career achievements without emotional fulfillment.

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5. Overcoming Public Speaking Fears and Embracing Vulnerability ([28:15] - [33:44])

Brooke shares her transformative experience with public speaking and the importance of vulnerability.

• Stand-Up Comedy Therapy: Describing her journey to conquer public speaking, Brooke recounts, "I did a standup comedy class... that experience has made me feel... I have never been nervous to speak publicly ever since" ([28:54]).

• Vulnerability in Leadership: Emphasizing the strength found in vulnerability, she encourages embracing imperfections to foster genuine connections.

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6. The Impact of Social Media Detox on Mental Clarity ([46:48] - [69:47])

Brooke discusses her conscious decision to disconnect from social media to regain mental clarity and foster authentic interactions.

• Social Media Break: After the birth of her daughter, Brooke deleted her social media apps, finding peace and clarity: "I felt this stillness, this quietness... life changing" ([66:34]).

• Quality Over Quantity: She reflects on consuming high-quality content and building her own opinions free from the incessant noise of social media, stating, "Great art can move you... just like that" ([72:04]).

• Intentional Engagement: Now back online, Brooke is more selective and intentional about her screen time, ensuring that her interactions are meaningful and nourishing.

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7. Fashion as a Form of Self-Expression ([55:34] - [61:51])

The episode explores the role of fashion and personal style in expressing one’s identity.

• Finding Personal Style: Brooke advises identifying recurring themes in one's wardrobe and accessories to discover a personal style point of view: "Look at your closet... Are there certain decades that you're drawn to?" ([56:39]).

• Ethereal Aesthetic: She encourages embracing an ethereal, fairy-like style for those who resonate with it, highlighting the importance of authenticity in fashion choices.

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8. Motherhood’s Influence on Ambition and Lifestyle ([46:48] - [52:52])

The conversation touches on how motherhood has reshaped Brooke's ambitions and lifestyle choices.

• Selective Ambition: Brooke explains that while her ambition remains strong, she is now more selective about the projects she undertakes to prioritize family time: "I really try to ask myself, will this add to my legacy?" ([50:30]).

• Balancing Act: She discusses the continuous adjustments required to maintain a healthy work-life balance, likening it to standing on one leg and constantly shifting for stability.

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9. Self-Care and Establishing Routines ([62:55] - [69:03])

Brooke underscores the importance of self-care routines in maintaining mental and emotional well-being.

• Sacred Routines: She emphasizes making self-care routines non-negotiable, especially for busy mothers: "Holding your routine, your self care routine as something sacred and something non negotiable changes your life" ([62:55]).

• Finding Stillness: Brooke shares her strategies for curating moments of stillness amidst a hectic schedule, including limiting screen time and focusing on high-quality content consumption.

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10. Final Insights and Toolkit Contribution ([62:33] - [63:48])

As the episode concludes, Brooke contributes a valuable tool to the UNRULY toolkit.

• Self-Care Routine Affirmation: "The best part about having a self care routine is the routine of it... holding your routine sacred... changes your life" ([62:55]).

Shelah and Brooke wrap up the episode by reinforcing the message of embracing change, authenticity, and the continuous journey of personal evolution.

Notable Quotes:

• "Done is better than perfect." – Brooke Devard ([21:10])

• "Holding your routine, your self care routine as something sacred and something non negotiable changes your life." – Brooke Devard ([62:55])

• "People aren’t paying extremely close attention to you... whatever you do can't be replicated or learned." – Brooke Devard ([46:43])

Conclusion:

Episode 39 of UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE is a profound exploration of personal and professional evolution. Brooke Devard Ozaydinli’s candid discussion offers listeners actionable insights into building authentic brands, balancing ambition with personal fulfillment, and the importance of self-care. The episode serves as a motivating reminder that evolving is a continuous journey, and permission to change begins within oneself.

Connect with Brooke Devard Ozaydinli:

• Podcast: Naked Beauty
• Instagram & TikTok: @BrookeDevard
• YouTube: Brooke Devard
• Website: brookedevard.com

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Thank you for reading this summary. To dive deeper into these conversations and gain more insights, subscribe to UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE wherever you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

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[Sheila Marie]

Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for Black Black woman, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Welcome back to another episode of Unruly. It's Moi. Sheila Marie T. Today's guest is someone who has redefined what it means to grow in public without making a performance of it. Brooke Devard is a creative strategist, a digital tastemaker, a mother of two, period, and the host of the beloved podcast Naked Beauty. She's built a space where beauty is more than skin deep. It's personal, cultural, and deeply human. But what I admire most about Brooke is her ability to evolve quietly, boldly, and honestly. She has shifted careers, expanded her platform, become a mother of two, launched her very first fragrance, and rebranded not just her image, but her inner world. So today, we're flipping the mic on Brooke. This is a conversation about identity, the courage to change, and what it really takes to become someone New, especially when people. When you're the one that people look to for all the answers. I can relate. This is permission to evolve. Let's get into it. Welcome to the stage, Brooke.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be on the show. Your episodes just feel like conversations with girlfriends. They just have this ease and fluidity to them. So I'm really excited to get into it today.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. Thank you. I feel like everybody is my friend when I'm talking to you. I. I honestly just feel grateful that I get to do this because I just love having very interesting conversations with very interesting women that I admire. And you are no different. And so I want to start with Icebreakers. So these are like kind of rapid fire questions and you just try to answer them as quickly as you can, you know?

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

All right. What show are you watching right now?

[Brooke Devard]

The studio on Apple tv. Have you seen it?

[Sheila Marie]

Hold up, hold up. That's the one with Seth Rogen.

[Brooke Devard]

Seth Rogen.

[Sheila Marie]

Seth Rogen. Right. So it's good.

[Brooke Devard]

It's good. It's very funny. I think if you work in Hollywood, it's very triggering because it's kind of this. Yes. Comedic look at what happens behind the scenes when they're making movies. And I just finished an episode all of about the Golden Globes with Zoe Kravitz. That was so funny. There's an episode about casting in Hollywood. If you cast a black man, then you have to have a black wife. Otherwise, it's a whole issue. Hilarious show.

[Sheila Marie]

I heard a lot of conversation about that particular episode. I'm really impressed with Apple TVs, like the shows that they're putting out, really good. It's kind of giving like old school HBO to me or something.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And what I love about all of the Apple TV shows, it's all original ip like, it's all new ideas. Severance. I'm watching your Neighbors and friends now too, which is on Apple TV with Jon Hamm. Great programming.

[Sheila Marie]

I like, I love. Every show that I've seen on Apple TV has been very fresh and new and interesting and I just love that. Cause, yeah, the show some of the studios right now, they just putting out like Netflix, girl, I'm about to cancel my Netflix. Cause what's going on Netflix?

[Brooke Devard]

Well, I hear that is it forever the show that everyone's talking about now.

[Sheila Marie]

That first of all, I am a Regina King and Mara Baraka kill Stanley.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

All right. And they nailed it. From the first episode, I was thinking to myself. Cause I didn't know who. I didn't know who produced the show. When I clicked on it, I just clicked on it. Cause I have a 14 year old girl in the house and I was like, teen, let's see where this goes. You know, I love if she can get interesting perspectives. She loves TV too. So we were watching it after the first episode. I just started saying while we were watching it, the dialogue is so well written, especially from the women. I said, who wrote these women? The dialogue at the end. I saw the credits. I was like, I knew it.

[Brooke Devard]

I know it.

[Sheila Marie]

It's so good. I can't wait to get through it so I can join in the conversation. Because I have been seeing everybody talking about forever on Netflix. So we'll give Netflix a break for that one. All right, next question. Please state for the jury why capris should make a comeback.

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh, I love a Capri. First of all, I've always loved Capris. Like a little pedal pusher moment. And I recently got a new pair from Good American and I feel like they're just like this cute in between shorts and long pants. And I think they just look super cute with like an off the shoulder sweater, a little pump.

[Sheila Marie]

You look something that's so adorable in your capris. I was like, okay, she might be kind of swaying me because I was like, capris, I think I'm too short. My proportions. I don't know how I look in capris, but I might try it out. I might try it out.

[Brooke Devard]

First of all, we've all seen the body. You would look good in literally anything.

[Sheila Marie]

So I'm sorry, can you say more? No, I'm just kidding. Thank you. Okay, last icebreaker question. If we pulled back the curtain, what is something that people would be surprised to know about the way that you work?

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh. I think because I accomplish a lot, people assume that I'm a morning person. I feel like there's been this myth out in the public that the most successful people wake up at 5am and by 6am they've done 70% of their day. And no, ma' am, that's not me. I am not a morning person. Never have been, never will be. I've actually tried to force myself to be a morning person. Me too. And my brain just doesn't function in the morning. It really doesn't function the way it needs to. I think I get my best creative ideas at night, so I am not a morning person at all.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, my husband is like that too. It's like when it's time to wind down in the evening. All of a sudden, he's like, oh, this and this and this. And it's like his brain is just on fire. And I'm like, yeah, why are we. You know what I'm saying? The stigma that everybody got to get up early. I don't like getting up early either. Has being a mother made you be a morning person?

[Brooke Devard]

No, I'm. I'm. I'm up early, but I'm not happy about it.

[Sheila Marie]

You're mad and up?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, I'm. I'm awake and not happy about it, period.

[Sheila Marie]

So. Okay, let's start here, man. You have played Uno at a Met gala after party hosted by Pharrell. How does it feel to be God's favorite?

[Brooke Devard]

Well, you know what? I am someone in my friend group. I love game nights. Like, I love games. I love card games. I love Uno.

[Sheila Marie]

What's your favorite? What's your favorite?

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh, I like Jin. I like Rumi Cube. There's a new game that I'm recently obsessed with called code words. Do you know this game?

[Sheila Marie]

No. Please educate me.

[Brooke Devard]

It's very fun. But are you into games? I feel like you're either into, like.

[Sheila Marie]

My favorite is Taboo, and I will demolish anyone in Taboo. Like, I'm a Taboo champion. Love Taboo.

[Brooke Devard]

I love Taboo. Unfortunately, I married someone who's not very into games.

[Sheila Marie]

Invite me.

[Brooke Devard]

I'll come. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I am forever trying to get a game night going. And so when I was looking at all of the Met gala after parties, each one more fabulous than the next, I saw, okay, Pharrell is doing an official Uno tournament. I was like, by the way, if I was in Pharrell's position, this is what I would do. Force everyone to play Uno A very. At a very glamorous. You know, it was like, this very glamorous room, and it was know specific tables with a dealer. Like, they made it really glam and fab. And I got invited because I. Pharrell has a skincare line called Human Race, which is a fantastic skincare line. On my podcast, Naked Beauty, I try to do a lot of education about skincare. I think we're trying to bring more men into the skincare conversation. Pharrell is known for having just phenomenal, phenomenal skin. And his dermatologist of 25 years, Dr. Alaina Jones, happens to be my dermatologist and close family friend. So we were all at the Mark. You know, the Mark hotel is where everyone gathers for the Met. And every year, Instagram does this kind of like, watch party with creators. So I was there, and Dr. Jones was there, and so we were talking. Okay, what are you doing after this? And she was like, I'm going to, you know, Pharrell's for this UNO tournament. And I was, you know, let me shoot my shot. Can I come? She said, yeah, of course. I'll make sure that you're on the list. So I got to go and experience it. And you just see all of these, you know, celebrities, rappers, everyone just playing Uno.

[Sheila Marie]

That is, like, so. That's actually so beautiful. I feel like UNO makes me think of and friends and just having a.

[Brooke Devard]

Good time, which very black, too, right? It was a very black Met gala theme, and UNO is very, very part of our culture.

[Sheila Marie]

I don't even play Uno because I feel like I forgot all the rules. And then everybody don't agree on the same rules, right? Some people, like, can you do a plus two and then a plus four and then a plus some. Everybody has different rules. So I'm like, I just like to see. I'm going have me a little drink and just watch, y' all. I was like, so you. You have said that you're in your budding media mogul era. Can you tell us what does that mean for you?

[Brooke Devard]

So I. I love content. I love consuming content, but I love making content as well. And I kind of have these different channels. I have Brooke Devard, which is my personal channel where I share things like family and fashion. I have Naked Beauty, which is my podcast channel where I talk mostly about skincare and beauty. I've recently launched on YouTube. I'm looking to launch on Patreon. And then parallel to all of this, I have my product, the Naked Beauty fragrance. And the world. Being a founder is very different from the world of being a content creator, but I'm seeing how they play off of each other in really interesting ways.

[Sheila Marie]

And what do you mean?

[Brooke Devard]

I think that all founders now, and I have a lot of founder friends that are in Sephora and Ulta Beauty. They're kind of expected to be content creators. They're expected to build a community around their products. People don't just want to buy a shampoo because it's effective. They want to know who the founder is. They want to feel like they're part of a community. The skincare brand Topicals is a really great example of a brand that has really grown into a community in a lifestyle. It means something to be a Topicals girl or a Topicals boy. And so I'm finding in conversations with My founder friends that are just pure founders, they're like, I don't like social media.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

But. But suddenly now I have to start making TikToks if I want to sell my lip balm or my moisturizer. I find that because I had a community first and then product second, I started with probably the most difficult product to sell online, which is fragrance. It's so hard to get people to purchase a fragrance without smelling it.

[Sheila Marie]

How do you advertise a smell?

[Brooke Devard]

Exactly, exactly. But because I had spent the past, you know, eight or nine years on my podcast talking about different fragrances, what I like, there was some built in trust there with my audience where people trusted my taste and people trusted. Okay, I know that she loves this fragrance from Le Labo and she loves this from Byredo. So I think I'm going to like the Naked Beauty fragrance. And I spent a lot of time talking about the process of developing it, why I chose neroli and green tea and sandalwood, and how I wanted this really grounded, everyday scent that I just wasn't finding anywhere on shelves. So by the time the process product was available, I was very happy to see lots of people ordered it because I had brought them along on the mission. I had brought them along on the journey of developing it.

[Sheila Marie]

How did you bring them? You know, that's interesting. I would love to know, how did you do that? I'm also in a similar position. I have an eye cream coming out. We're still in the testing phases because I have like sunken under eyes. But you can't tell a lot because I'm practicing my eye creams. I'm testing them out. But I was like, how do I bring people in on the process so that they feel that the final product that they have in their, like, they take stake in it? Not just like, I'm shelling you something that I'm just white labeling.

[Brooke Devard]

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[Sheila Marie]

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[Brooke Devard]

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[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely. Well, one, your under eye area looks gorgeous. So I'm excited to hear about. I'm excited to hear about this eye cream. And I think eye cream is so overlooked. Some people feel like it's very optional. I'm like, eye cream is a must in your skincare routine, I believe.

[Sheila Marie]

Listen, because like, for me, unless I what is it, a lower blephoto?

[Brooke Devard]

I don't remember how you say, there you go.

[Sheila Marie]

That's what it is. Unless I have one of those, it's like it's genetic for me. Like, it doesn't matter how much sleep I get, I can be fully rested. And so, yeah, I was like, okay, I don't necessarily feel like I want to go under the knife under my eyes. So let me see. And I know for a lot of women that's just not accessible. So finding, testing something out and I'm like telling them it has to be clean. I don't want any testing on animals. I want it to be ethically sourced and produced and it has to be good. I am not putting my name on anything unless it is. I can stand by it. And I feel that you share that same ethos.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I think even just what you shared with me now is the perfect way of sharing it with your audience. Explaining your personal history with the area under your eyes, talking about the standards that you're holding, the cosmetic chemists you're working with too. That is the sort of thing that people love an inside look on, even down to the bottle. I'm going to show you the, the Naked Beauty fragrance bottle. I was just, I was. But I was between two different bottles and I came on and I said, okay, should I do bottle A or bottle B? And I had my community actively give me feedback in real time. And we landed. We landed. And that was the bottle that I came out with So I think even getting your community involved in the naming of the product, sharing with them, the testing that you're doing, the results that you're seeing, by the time it comes out, people are going to be so excited.

[Sheila Marie]

I love this. I love this. So you know, you, you, I first of all, I love following you. I love it. And it's so funny cuz I didn't really put two and two together that I'm like, this is the same. Wait, I'm interviewing Brooke. I was like, I love her already. As somebody like yourself who's constantly ev and exploring new versions of yourself, do you ever feel like there are past versions of yourself that people try to connect to even though you yourself have moved on?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, I do feel that way sometimes because again, I've been very public in sharing my journey. Everything from having a child, now having a second child, but also leaving corporate. I worked in corporate my whole career. I was at Instagram for five years and now I am a solo entrepreneur in the beauty space. So very, very different. And I think a lot of people began following me while I was in corpor and sharing maybe more advice about navigating a corporate career. I think what's interesting is whether you work for yourself or work for someone else, the things about building your career, building your brand kind of remain true. I think that conversations about how to build a brand oftentimes people see them as specific to creators or influencers or people that work for themselves. But even if you work at a company, you still have to build your brand internally. There is a brand that follows you in the workplace and people know that when they give you a project, how you're going to approach it. People. I think this idea of building a brand isn't just isolated to people that work for themselves. So I've tried to basically carry my conversations, even though I don't work in corporate anymore, into the work I'm doing now.

[Sheila Marie]

You know, I think that's really important that you touched on that, the building a brand. And I think it loops back to what something you said just a few minutes ago is that every. Everybody is expected to be a content creator now and the face of a brand. I have my friends, a lot of, I have a lot of friends in the medical field and one of my friends is a dentist and she's like, I don't want to be a tiktoker. Like I, I just, I love what I do. And she's like, now I'm outside, you know, if I back it up, you know, and she's like, I have to do these trends and stuff just to publicize my business. And like, my expertise is dental work. So how, what advice would you give to people who are like, I feel like I need to be in the content space, but that's not necessarily my top thing. That's not my gift.

[Brooke Devard]

I have two separate tracks of advice. So track one is for people that actually don't mind doing social, but they're afraid of being judged. And I find that most people fit into this, this group. People want to show up on social media, they want to share, but they have this fear of judgment. And I think one of the best things you can do yourself is free yourself from the notion that people care, that people are pay super close attention to you. And it's, you know, it's really, you're laughing, but it's true. People aren't paying. People aren't paying extremely close attention to you. They're not studying your every move, they're not zooming in on your post to criticize. And if they are, that's like super fan behavior, right? Like, most people don't have that level of scrutiny and people criticize Beyonce, right? So sure, people may criticize you, but that can't stop you from connecting with the people you're meant to connect to. So you have a message, you have something you want to share, and there are people out there that want to receive that message. Don't let the fear of judgment stop you from connecting with your intended community. And I really, really encourage people that are nervous about speaking on camera. I always say start with stories first. Like stories, they expire in 24 hours. Just start speaking directly to camera on stories. Prop your phone up, share something that you're doing. You'll see the feedback immediately and then slowly but surely move that content onto your feed. I think that there's just a lot that is almost self inhibiting around social media. Like people censor themselves before anyone else can say something. Now the second group of people, people that are like, it's actually not about being judged. I truly just do not care about this and I don't want to do it. I think unfortunately it is a part of the marketing mix. So if you are marketing your business, it is a way that you need to show up, find someone that can help you with it, find a partner, it can be, you know, a young person that's doing it well in your community and say, I want to meet with you twice a week to go over a social content calendar. Maybe you can't post every day, but maybe you can post every Wednesday and Friday. And once a month you can meet and batch content and get it out. But I think finding a partner to do it and keep you accountable, even if it's something you really don't like, can be really transformative for your business.

[Sheila Marie]

That's really great advice because that's kind of the whole story of being a business owner, is finding people, is outsourcing, is delegating, finding people who have the strengths that you don't. Because I do think that there's a myth that we need to be able to do it all. And maybe, you know, that's not true. No one is good at everything, so don't be afraid to delegate. Absolutely. If the version of Brooke that I'm talking to today had a tagline, what would it be?

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh, a tagline or anything.

[Sheila Marie]

If you could just describe her in a sentence, I.

[Brooke Devard]

Well, I would say my tagline would be done is better than perfect.

[Sheila Marie]

Holy shit. I literally just did an episode called that.

[Brooke Devard]

Really great. So we're in alignment. We're in alignment. It's like, just do it. Don't wait for it to be perfect. You know, you. You talked about, like, the standards you have even for this cream that you're developing. I had similar standards for my fragrance. I wanted it to be a clean fragrance, nothing harmful. I have babies that are, like, snug on top of me all the time. So I was like, I really need this to be a clean fragrance. No hormone disruptors. And I had my kind of non negotiables, the things that I was not willing to budge on. But then there are other things that come into play as you are building your business where you have to compromise. You have to. Maybe you can't hire. Maybe you need to hire seven people and you can only hire three right now. Maybe you want to go to four events, but because of the reality of your childcare situation and your home life, you can only go to one of those events. I think think constantly compromising is part of building a successful business and successful life for yourself.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, absolutely. Oh, dang. I just lost my thought. What was I gonna say? I was thinking of my friend Sabrina.

[Brooke Devard]

Ah.

[Sheila Marie]

Done is better than perfect, right? And she's a mom too, and she has, like, twins, and sometimes she does brand deals and stuff. And a lot of times it's like, she's like, I just feel like it's messy, and my life is messy and chaotic. I can't pretend to be perfect for content for this brand and, like, all the stress around being perfect and this perfectionist idea, and I wonder how many ideas go to die or never get born because of this standard of perfectionism that some of us. And it's not our fault. I think it's a collective thing that we feel like, ugh, I'm gonna be judged.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely.

[Sheila Marie]

Put it out.

[Brooke Devard]

And I would. I would imagine that your friend Sabrina, people like the chaos and. And don't expect the perfection. Right. I've. I think about all of the content creators that really resonate with me. I'm not looking in their background to see if things are disorganized on the desk behind them. I'm focused on the content of what they're saying. And I think the more you show up as your true self, that content resonates so much more than the perfectly packaged, you know, whatever you think of as Instagram perfect.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. Like, the other day, she sent us a voice note, and she was like, oh, I just woke up from a nap. And then immediately you heard in the background. And I was like, I love that. That, to me, is real. It's relatable. And to me, it just reminds us, like, and also, too, her refusal to be perfect means she's a present mom. It means she lets her kids play. It means she plays with them. She is one of the few people that I know that actively makes her kids play outside. Those kids so important. I'm like, girl, you do not understand. I'm here. I have my bonus children too. And, like, you know, you look outside. I'm glad, though. In my neighborhood, the kids play outside. But really, if you're not careful trying to be perfect, you know, you miss out on the moment and you miss out on so much of that human connection, which is hard because we're living in a hyper visible era. So speaking of that, you're someone like me. You create content about your life sometimes. Like, sometimes you do talk about your. Your children, and sometimes you do talk about your personal life as you're building this platform that includes visibility. How do you know what to include and what to leave out? Like, what is sacred and what is allowed to be shared.

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[Brooke Devard]

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[Brooke Devard]

I think it's such a good question. One of the things that I try to do is really take into account feedback from people. I'm someone that is actively in the dms. Are you as well. Do you DM with people? Yes. I love it.

[Sheila Marie]

But. Okay. Can I ask you a question? Like, do you ever. Sometimes I feel like, overwhelmed or worried that people are going to give me like, all this advice and stuff or judge me. Is that just me I need to get over?

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, I think I. I'm sure your DMs are overwhelmingly positive. I can see the public comments on your content. They're overwhelmingly positive. So I think. And, and I think we also have this human tendency. Like we. You get one negative comment and you hyper focus on that. Um, but I got a. I got a really interesting DM from someone that said, you know, I. I see, you know, you're out here, you're building your brand, and it's been so successful, but it kind of seems like too perfect. Like it's too. And I. And that was really important for me to hear because that I was not sharing often enough the failures, the things that were not going right. I think when there's a failure that comes up, my natural inclination is not to highlight it or celebrate it. It is to focus on finding a solution. But that was really important feedback for me to hear because then I integrated that into my content. When things weren't going to plan, I would share it openly with my audience. People that listen to Naked Beauty know that one of the interviews that I most, most want to do is Pat McGrath, the legendary makeup artist.

[Sheila Marie]

I saw you on thread say, like, I wanted to go up to him and I was too scared. I get it.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, she was, you know, it was at the Pharrell after party, actually. She was very close to me in a very private setting. It would have been so easy for me to go up to her, introduce myself and say, I'd love to have you on the podcast. And I just choked. It was like this out of box. Like I saw me and I saw her and I was just like, I like froze basically. And that doesn't happen to me often, but I think it was just like the weight of the situation. Seeing this person that I've wanted to interview for so many years right there within arm's reach. And I just couldn't say anything. But I shared that on Threads, as you saw, you know, to share kind of a failure like that was. That was a big flop on my part. I really should have, you know, gone up. But sometimes.

[Sheila Marie]

Or not. Or not. Maybe you were being guided by your intuition in some way.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. Or. Yes, that's. I love the positive spin, but I think I also just got nervous, you know, and sometimes people get nervous and that's okay as well. One of the things that helped me the most, a lot of people have this huge fear of public speaking and showing up in public. I did. This is like immersive shock therapy that I did. I did a standup comedy class. It was a six week intensive and at the end of the six weeks, you had to go on stage like, and do an open mic, like an 11 minute set. Sorry, it was a 7 minute set on stage at Caroline's. That's like in Broadway, Times Square.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, yeah, I know Caroline's.

[Brooke Devard]

But the most, the most nerve wracking. I mean, when they called my name to come up, I felt like I was going to throw up. Like, once you've done standup comedy, like on a stage with an audience and the relationship between standup comedians and their audience, it isn't necessarily like people aren't necessarily rooting for you. The feeling is kind of like, are you going to make me laugh? There's kind of like an antagonistic relationship between the audience and the comedian. That experience of doing stand. Stand up has made me feel. And I did that six years ago now since that I have never been nervous to speak publicly ever since that experience. So if people listening want to get comfortable with public speaking, take a stand up comedy class, go on stage, do an open mic night, nothing is scarier.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. I lit. I. I am about to sign up for some improv classes. I was. But maybe I'm just gonna do this stand up instead because it is really me just getting out, flexing my creative muscles and taking that chance, like you said. And it is nerve wracking. I personally think there's nothing more scary than standup.

[Brooke Devard]

Nothing, Nothing. It's just you and a mic.

[Sheila Marie]

And so, you know, this is interesting. A few months ago, there was a trend I saw going around about rejection therapy. And I saw someone saying, oh, black women, we don't need rejection therapy because we get rejected enough in everyday life. What do you think about that?

[Brooke Devard]

That's. That's hilarious. Um, I mean, I think that's true. We do get rejected enough in everyday life. I. I can remember, you know, I grew up in New York City from a very young age, just understanding that racism was ever present. When I would just go to.

[Sheila Marie]

Where did you go?

[Brooke Devard]

Put out my hand to hail. I grew up in New York City.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, that's right. You said New York. Okay, sorry.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I grew up in New York City and just going to hail a cab and seeing a cab literally pass you and pick up a white person down the block. Right. So from a very young age I understood. And parents also explained to me, from a very young age, people will second guess you, they will doubt you, they will think less of you simply because of the color of your skin, simply because you are a black girl. So I was always hyper aware of that. I think it's funny that she said that, you know, black women don't do rejection therapy because we face rejection a lot. I think that the spirit of rejection therapy is very extreme. Some of the things that I've seen people do, like laying out in the.

[Sheila Marie]

Middle of the street asking strangers for $100.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, extreme. Extreme. But you know what? I think I was just with, for the Met Gal. I was in New York with my makeup artist. She's from la. It was her first time in New York City. And so, you know, we're spending every second together because I've got all of these events. And she was like, what amazes me about New York is how often you come into contact with people every single moment, whether it's like the driver, the person at the bodega, the person on the street, like at the shop, like, you're in constant conversation with people that are very different than you. And because I grew up in New York and now I live in Los Angeles, I can really feel this stark difference And I think that so many of us kind of live inside of our bubbles. It's like you're in your car, you go to the like one place that you go to where you know everyone, then you get back in your car and then you come home. And I think people are sort of like losing that muscle of interacting with people that are different from them and engaging with people that are different from them. There's so many things about how like Gen Z is afraid to speak to people on the phone. They always want the online option. Like, they literally don't even want to like pick up the phone to have a conversation with a doctor's office. It's me really.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm working on it. I think I'm better at it.

[Brooke Devard]

I have spurts. Is it, is it like social anxiety? What gives you the feeling?

[Sheila Marie]

I think that there are moments where I just get so overwhelmed about thinking about all the options of what could happen.

[Brooke Devard]

What if this conversation goes left scenario.

[Sheila Marie]

And the worst case scenario is literally never bad. As I said, I did an episode on Done Better than Perfect and I told this story and it actually relates to what we're talking about is years ago when I lived, I was taking an acting class and she was telling us, like, you need to get on the phone. A lot of you think you can email your way through everything and yeah, you're submitting to casting agents, et cetera. You need to get on the phone. So go get on the phone with someone you admire. And at the time it was Lena Dunham for me because I really loved her series Girls.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

Great job. I don't even know how I found the number, but I just called, I think it was her manager casting. I don't even know who it was, how I got the number. But this is back then, this was years ago. And I just said, hi, I'd like to speak to Lena, Donna, them. And they're like, what? I was like, hi, my name is Sheila Marie. I'm in a click. Nothing bad happened, Nothing. But I did at the moment. It gave me a, a lot of confidence. Now I'm like, the worst that could happen is they could say no, they'll just hang up the phone and I'll live.

[Brooke Devard]

Exactly, exactly. So I, I think some of these like extreme things that we see online are people's, they're, they're forcing themselves to get outside of their comfort zone. And I think it's for the better.

[Sheila Marie]

I do too. So do you feel successful?

[Brooke Devard]

I feel successful, yes. And I feel successful because I am in control of my own time and how I spend my time and what I focus on. I think that the hardest part about working for yourself, and I think you'll agree with this, is that you don't have anyone telling you what to do. You don't have a quarterly review. You don't have a boss that says, okay, I need this by Wednesday at 6 o' clock. So you have to self initiate everything. You have to light the fire under yourself to get things done, which is a blessing and a curse. The great part about it is you do get to be in control of your time and you get to understand, you know, how you can look at your week and decide how you want to spend your week. But it's hard. It's hard to self motivate.

[Sheila Marie]

It is. Does the success that you have now feel like what you hoped for before? If you could look back, like 10, 15 years, you know, that version of you, and she was hoping for success, does it feel like what you hoped for?

[Brooke Devard]

That's such an interesting question. Career success, I think is great, but the family success, I didn't know how validating it would feel, you know, to come in from. From a recording and just have a little person run up to you and wrap their arms around you. You know, like my son, he's four and a half. He doesn't. He doesn't care about my podcast. He doesn't care that I interviewed, you know, Issa Rae or Alicia Keys. Like, he's. He likes mom and he likes playing with mom. And I think that, that the. The feeling good in my marriage, feeling good with my children, I didn't realize how gratifying that would be. And I think that if you don't have happiness in that realm, all of the career success sort of means nothing, right?

[Sheila Marie]

Hollow. Yes, it's true. And you know what? This is something that I have been. I am very intuitive again and just spiritual. And when I watch the videos of Cowboy Carter and I see Blue Ivy and I see Rumi, I'm just like, wow. I hope. And I feel, I hope she is. I hope Beyonce's so proud of herself. Because when you see that tour, you can see the work that went into those young girls. And it's also so super cute to see Rumi realize her mom's Beyonce. Because, like, as you said, your son is four and a half. He doesn't know that you're doing all these. You're just Mommy. And Rumi is literally out there like, hold on. How y' all all screaming for my Mama. That's my mama, you know?

[Brooke Devard]

I know, I know. I was there on the first night. So I feel like I got, like, the. The purest version of Rumi, really standing on that stage, looking around Sofi Stadium and understanding, okay, this is who. Who my mom is. And you know what? One of my favorite interviews I've done on Naked Beauty. Last year, I had an opportunity to interview Ms. Tina, and I'm so happy that she has released a book so more people can get into her story.

[Sheila Marie]

I think her book sounds amazing.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

I cannot wait to read her book. And I never thought I would say that she's incredible.

[Brooke Devard]

And, I mean, we love Beyonce and we love Solange, and there's a reason why they are the women that they are, right? And she talked in the interview about her mother and her mother making all of their clothes and being this kind of creative force. And it's just so interesting how family lineage, your genes, what you expose your kids to, that shows up in who your kids become. So I just really appreciated hearing from her and how intentional she was about raising her daughters.

[Sheila Marie]

Honestly, she really deserves her flowers, because when you see Blue Ivy and Rumi, in comparison to other celebrity children of that level of celebrity, there's just. And again, I could be projecting because I don't know anything. I don't know Beyonce personally. I don't know anything about how they parent, but it looks like. Like, children that are parented. Very healthy, the way Blue just conducts. She's. She's the same age as my bonus daughter. And so, like. And my bonus daughter, her middle name is Blue. So I always. Every time I see Blue, I think of Sailor, and I'm just like, oh, my gosh. Like, just that she. It just seems like such a healthy. That they got such a healthy, grounded that they're grounded that their feet are somehow on the ground, even though they have all this success. And again, I could be projecting because I don't know. But when? Night one, specifically, the night that you are at Cowboy Carter, that version of Rumi, I cried when I saw it, because it just reminded me cried. I was like, this is the black girl. Before people criticized her, before people told her tone it down. And of course, people went on the Internet and been all weird about it. But to me, what I saw, I was just happy. Like, her joy was just exploding out of her body. And I thought, this is so beautiful. And I'm really just glad that she gets that experience. And it was a healing moment for me to watch her be so full and so free. I was like, yes, more of this shout out to Mama Tina and all of them. You've had a very interesting career. You've gone from employee to entrepreneur, from host to, like, media house. How did you get the courage and how did you know it was time to fully bet on yourself?

[Brooke Devard]

That's such a fantastic question. You know, it's interesting. I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and founders when I was. So I was working in corporate. I was at. So I started my career in London, then I moved to New York. I was working at Ralph Lauren. I wanted experience. I was doing social media for Ralph Lauren. I wanted experience outside of social media. So I went to Viacom, now Paramount, and I was doing marketing and strategy there. And then I just saw the way TV and Linear was going. Instagram was launching this new product called igtv, Rest in Peace. And I was brought over to help launch igtv, which then became Reels, which was one of the biggest projects that I worked on. But I've had my podcast, I've had Naked Beauty for eight years now. So all throughout all of these jobs, I have my podcast on the side. It's kind of this little thing on the side that I'm growing and growing and growing and growing. And I would ask people, entrepreneurs, founders, I would say, like, how did you know it was time to leave? And they kept saying to me, you'll know when it's time. And I was like, okay, well, I don't. Not getting that feeling. I'm not getting that, you know, you talked about intuition. I'm not getting that intuitive thing that it's time. I personally believe there is so much to be gained from working at a company. I think it is a great way to learn on someone else's dime. You learn how teams are set up. You learn how goals are set. You learn how to manage different people, different goals. Like it's. It's managing budgets, right? Managing marketing calendars. You learn so much by working at a company. And I think working in tech, especially a company like Instagram that was in this hyper growth mode, every month felt different. Every quarter I was learning something new. I was getting more responsibilities. So I was still actively, actively learning and changing and growing and developing. So it felt really possible to do both at the same time. It got to a point where I was just getting so many opportunities with my podcast, and I saw what I was able to do by giving it 20%, where I said, okay, if I give this a hundred percent, how much would the show change? Just this Past March this year, south by Southwest, I won best fashion and beauty podcast at the iHeart Podcast Awards.

[Sheila Marie]

Congratulations.

[Brooke Devard]

So exciting. Yes. But I was up against, you know, these huge podcasts that had, like, media, you know, iheart shows. Gwyneth Paltrow on the Goop podcast. Right. Like these huge shows and I'm like an independent show. Right. So I've got a small team of people. We're all, you know, all freelancers, all working independently. But it's because I've been able to pour so many hours into nurturing it. And I just had that moment of like, if I give this, it's. It's where it is now at 20%. If I give it a hundred percent, how much better could it be? And that's what really allowed me to take the leap. I do think for people listening that have something on the side that they're passionate about, I think as long as you are still actively learning and growing in corporate, that experience is so valuable. It's. I like. I don't think it could be underscored enough. I think people sometimes now just leave school and they want to go straight into entrepreneurship. I think there's so much value in working for someone else. I've had job offers since, and it's been my belief to continue on my path and not return to corporate for now. That's me speaking in 2025.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah. And you're allowed to evolve and grow. So what did you take with you from tech? What are some lessons that you learned in tech that you've taken with you? And you apply to the way in which you work now?

[Brooke Devard]

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[Sheila Marie]

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[Brooke Devard]

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[Sheila Marie]

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[Brooke Devard]

Oh my gosh. I think tech is one of those industries and anyone listening to tech will agree with me here. There is such an efficiency in tech. Every single meeting has an agenda. Every meeting is 30 minutes. You don't need an hour for a meeting. There's a, there's a tight agenda.

[Sheila Marie]

Can we, can we, can we say that again, y' all? Every meeting do not have to be at hour at all.

[Brooke Devard]

I don't know why the default became an hour. All of my meetings even now are 30 minutes. And, and, and I need the agenda ahead of time. What are we talking about? What do I need to have prepared? What are we discussing that is very, very important so that efficiency, sticking to 30 minute meetings with clear agendas, clear next steps. And then I think one of the reasons why Meta is as successful as it is is because people don't really operate in silos. Work is published across teams. So I do that like the person who's working on my YouTube strategy is aware what the is aware of what my podcast producer is working on and the person who's working on my fragrance line is aware of what the social strategy is. Ecosystem, yes. There is visibility across all areas of the team so that everyone knows what we are working toward. There are, this is the goal for the quarter. This is what we're all working towards and everyone is aware of it. And I think that is the type of rigor around team and goal setting that I've learned from, from tech.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. I have never worked in corporate and I do think trying as an entrepreneur, like solo creator, it does hurt me sometimes because I don't, I'm not familiar with that type of structure. I'm not like, sometimes as a content creator, you can get stuck in survival mode or just thinking like, man, I gotta get through this quarter, I gotta get through this month, right? And I actually started one of my friends, she's amazing, she has a very successful mutual aid foundation. And she said, Sheila, you need to get a board. You need to create a board of Sheila. You need to get people, somebody that's in finance, a cpa, someone that's in travel or whatever, somebody in all different, these different areas. And then Once a quarter, we have a meeting. And even me, I'm like, wait, I have to know the meeting. I have to give them four months in advance notice. Like, even all of that, the way they incorporate the structure from corporate, the foresight, the visioning one year ahead, two year ahead, all of that, I think I'm just now getting a hold of, and I can see how, watching you, I can actually see how you've. That has benefited you.

[Brooke Devard]

I think the good news is the creative part, like, you know, I know you have a performing arts background that is much, much harder. Like, the. The structure and organization, like, anyone can learn that, but the magic that you bring to your work, your creativity, that. That can't be replicated or learned.

[Sheila Marie]

Very true. Very true. Okay, I wanna switch topics and talk about motherhood for a second.

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh. Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

So you posted a gorgeous picture of your maternal lineage. So I think it was your grandmother, your mom, you and your daughter, right?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

I was like, that is so beautiful. Please frame that and put that up somewhere. It's just gorgeous.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

What's one lesson that. That the women around you have taught you? How have they shaped you?

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. My. My grandmother, Dr. Jean Devard Kemp, is just phenomenal. She was a single mother raising two kids. She decided to go back to school. The man she was married to was not supportive of her bettering herself. He just kind of wanted to put her in a box and have her be his little wife. And she said, no, I want more for myself herself. She left him. She went to school, she got her master's. She went back, she got her PhD, and she is now married to a wonderful man. My. My grandfather, who is 102 years old. He's. You know, he's been married to her since before I was born, so he's the only grandfather that I know. But she insisted on a better life for herself. And, you know, she raised my. My mother and my uncle, and my mother is cheating. Just a. A phenomenal career woman. She is actually being honored tonight by the Clio Awards for a marketing lifetime achievement award, which is incredible. She's built. She. You know, she had this incredible career. She worked at Citibank, at Revlon, at Verizon, and all of these kind of marketing leadership roles. She now has an organization called Becca for executives, Black executives, people of color that have accomplished great things and are the only ones at Fortune 500 companies because there are so few black executives, sadly, at Fortun 500 companies. So she's always taught me that it's not just about what you can do for yourself, but it's about paying it forward and how do you help other people and help, you know, your community. So she's been an incredible example to me on how to balance work and family. She's always been a very active mom, but she's also, because of her career, has always been very busy and has worked a lot. But she brought my brother and I into her work. So she would come home with. With tapes of commercials that they were going to run. Okay, these are the three different commercials that we've got that we want to run for the Super Bowl. Which version do you like the best and why? And she would share with us, you know, what she heard from her focus groups, and she would say, okay, we're sponsoring this concert series. Who do you think you know, who's popular? Who are your friends talking about? And this is the data that we look at. What do you, you know, does this agree with what you guys are hearing? So she always made us aware of her work and brought us into it. So we were, you know, we felt excited about everything that she was doing. And I tried to do the same thing with my son. I explain, okay, Mommy has this big interview today. Now, he doesn't care, but I always make him aware of what I'm doing and that I'm working and that my work is important. Being his mom is important, but my work is important as well.

[Sheila Marie]

Sounds like you got your own mama, Tina.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, yes. Well, I mean, I think so. I think, you know, we learn so much about how to show up from our mothers. And I feel very lucky to have this strong maternal influence, both from my grandmother and my mom. And the other thing about them both, they love to shop, they love fashion, they both have phenomenal style. All three of us could shop from 7am to 8pm every time we go shopping, we shop until the store is closed down. We love an outlet mall. The that. That appreciation for style is something that I definitely inherited from my mother and grandmother.

[Sheila Marie]

That's really sweet for you. Do you feel like motherhood has reshaped your ambition or clarified it in some way?

[Brooke Devard]

I'm still as ambitious as I've ever been, but I'm much more selective about what I take on. I really try to ask myself, will this add to my legacy? Is this part of my ultimate goal versus is this something that is just a quick transactional thing that maybe I don't need to do? I think when I moved to la, I moved here two years ago. I think I was much more Focused on. You know, there are all of these fabulous parties and events, and it's like you want to go to them. But then I just, I kind of had a moment of just stopping and not attending those things because it meant taking time away from my kids and from my family. So I try to be really selective about the work that I take on because what I'm missing out on isn't just about personal time. It's about missing out on time with my family.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow, I love that you sound like you have such a healthy balance between or. Or it's more so like standing on one leg. Like if you had to stand on one leg and you were really quiet and you focused on it, you'd notice it's a series of micro movements, never 100% still. So it's like you sound like you're always adjusting, like, okay, pull a little bit back, give a little bit more, Shift left, shift light. Love that.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. It's so important to continually check in with yourself and ask yourself, I think this is the other thing I really want to say. It's important that you're having fun doing what you're doing. Oof. My podcast is. It's a wellness podcast. Right. If I'm running myself ragged to have to have wellness conversations, that is a red flag. That means that something really needs to be adjusted. I think again, when you work for someone, it's easy to blame your company or your boss or your manager on why you're not enjoying your job. When you work for yourself, yourself, it's. That's on you. If you're not enjoying your work, then you need to make the adjustment and really figure out how you can inject more joy into your day, into your week. When do you need to step away? I was listening to a podcast you did recently where your guest was talking about just taking a 30 minute walk with headphones on and listening to a podcast. Like you. As an adult, you were responsible for your own joy. You were responsible for your own fun.

[Sheila Marie]

That is such a good. As an adult, you are responsible for your own joy.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, you are. You are.

[Sheila Marie]

And it should be. And it should be on a high priority, such as just like everything else. Absolutely.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely. So that's so important to me. Am I enjoying what I'm doing? Am I. Am I having fun in the process of doing what I'm doing?

[Sheila Marie]

Well, you know, Yes. I saw a clip of Shan Boodram. I love Shan. And she was talking about pleasure on a panel. I think this was the View. She was on the View. And they were just low key, bashing her for talking about women prioritizing their pleasure as if pleasure is a negative thing. They were insinuating that pleasure means you're selfish and pleasure as a woman means you're putting that before other things. And I'm like, wow, why are we so afraid of joy and pleasure as women? I mean, that's a long answer, but we just need to know that it's important. Pleasure and joy is important. On your podcast, you've interviewed so many women. Is there people, people? Is there any conversation that left, like, a permanent imprint on you that you remember to this day?

[Brooke Devard]

One of the people I interviewed recently and I did it with my friend Sir John, was Dita Von Teese. Are you familiar?

[Sheila Marie]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. Dita Von Teese. She is a burlesque star. She is in her 50s. Wow. But she talked about. Is she the one?

[Sheila Marie]

Did she have controversy of some. Am I. Am I remembering that right? Right.

[Brooke Devard]

No, she, you know, she was married to Marilyn Manson. It was a very.

[Sheila Marie]

That's what it was. Okay, I remember now. Got it.

[Brooke Devard]

Marriage. But she is just this incredibly beautiful. And she, I mean, she truly. She looks like she stepped out of, you know, the 1950s. She has, like, this perfectly coiffed hair, perfect makeup. Everything is impeccably tailored. You know, the little handbag, perfect manicure. She does all of her own hair, all of her own makeup. She has a burlesque show that's live in Vegas right now. But she is one of these people that really, really, really took control of how she wanted to show up in the world. She's from a very small town, and she just said she always wanted to be like, these kind of like 1950s pinup girls. And she created herself. She created the image of herself. And I think about the people that I really admire from a beauty and style perspective, it's women like Diana Ross. Yes. Erykah Badu is, like, maybe the highest on the list for me, because Erykah Badu is beautiful. Right? Like, she is, like, naturally, like, if she did nothing, like, she's a stunning woman, but all of the ways that she adorns herself and chooses to show up and expresses her creativity through the way she wears her hair and through the way she dresses. I'm really, really moved by women that have a strong point of view about how they want to show up in the world and really took the time to say, how do I want to express myself and how do I want to use beauty and fashion as a vehicle for that I think oftentimes we think that it's frivolous. And it's so deep. Right? It's so deep. And the people that stand out to me are people that have a really strong point of view about their presentation.

[Sheila Marie]

Ooh, yes. Teyana Taylor comes to mind.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Another woman is, Is. Is just be. I mean, she could do nothing. She could wear jeans and a T shirt and be the most beautiful woman in the world. But I think the people that stand out to us, or at least to me, from a beauty and style standpoint, are people that have a point of view and are really thinking about creative expression.

[Sheila Marie]

Because what advice would you. You give to someone like me where I feel like I have no point of view when it comes to style? Like, I, I, I know I'm, I've gotten better. I've. I've been insecure about style since I was young just because I, I didn't feel like I was comfortable in my own body. So it felt weird to dress me.

[Brooke Devard]

I feel like you dress so well.

[Sheila Marie]

Thank you. Everyone says that. I'm like, thanks. Okay, so let me say this. I do think I know how to dress myself. Like, I, I'm aware of my proportions now. I know what silhouettes look good on me, but I don't have a point of view. I'm just like, this dress will fit. This will look good. But I am in awe of women who do have a point of view, but I do not know how to find my style point of view. Does that make sense in terms of fashion?

[Brooke Devard]

It's such a good question. I think there are a few ways to find it and then to express it. I think if you look at your closet, like, you know, they, they say that thing that's like, you wear 20% of your wardrobe 80% of the time.

[Sheila Marie]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

What are the pieces that you continually find yourself gravitating towards? Are they more, like, tailored? Are they more bohemian? When you look at your. Do you Pinterest?

[Sheila Marie]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. When you look at your Pinterest board, what are the common themes in the outfits that you're saving? Do they have a lot of color? What is the silhouette? Is it flowy? Is it, you know, more structured? Really kind of figuring out, are there certain decades that you're drawn to? Do you, like, the 70s? Do you like the minimalism of the 90s and kind of seeing what those common threads are? I think one of the easiest ways to communicate personal style is through your accessories, which is, you know, like this. Are there a set of rings that you wear all the time is, are there, like, earrings that are, like, your personal earrings? Is there, like, a necklace stack that really communicates, you know, your personal style so that even when you change what you're wearing, I think the accessories. I think, like, a great pair of glasses is always a great way of, like, sharing your style point of view. I think all of those things really communicate. I personally love to change my hair. I'm changing my hair all the time. I. I think.

[Sheila Marie]

Do you wear wigs?

[Brooke Devard]

I. So I haven't gotten into wigs yet.

[Sheila Marie]

I really wish. I love how much you can change your look with wigs, but I just don't know how to put them on. And I'm not into it exactly, but I love it. I love the drama.

[Brooke Devard]

And what I'm careful about when I am changing my hair is to do protective styles because there is. Our hair is precious, and we cannot damage our hair. So recently, I did a sew in with micro braids in the front that went super viral on TikTok because everyone was like, oh, my gosh, this is like, you really hacked the system.

[Sheila Marie]

Wait, you did. Wait, you did a sew in.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, with micro. So for my leave out, I did micro braids with the same hair that I used as my sew in. So it kind of had this, like, seamless wow. I see you thinking, yeah, because now.

[Sheila Marie]

I want to go on tick. I got to see that. I'm a visual learner. I'm like, I have to see that. You did. You thought of that on your own. Like, you just.

[Brooke Devard]

It's actually something that I did. I mean, this is. Wow. Going back to, like, the early, like, 2000s, like in Harlem. I. I did this style, like, forever ago when I was, like, much younger. But Beyonce used to do this style, like, in her Destiny's Child days. Sometimes they called it, like, pick and drop braids. I don't have the patience to sit for micro braids, but you can do it in a way where you can get just braids in the front. And then I love experimenting with color, but I don't want to damage my own hair. So that's also been interesting. This sew in that I have now, none of my hair is out, so it's like all of my hair is fully protected, but I get to experiment with a different hair color and different hair texture.

[Advertisement Speaker]

So.

[Brooke Devard]

So I think as black women, one of our biggest privileges is that we get to experiment with our hair. Like, we can do blonde, we can be ginger, we can do a pixie Cut like, we can really do it all. And so use all of those tools. But don't damage your hair. That's my thing.

[Sheila Marie]

But don't damage your hair. That's the quote right there. To stay with that. I love that. And, you know, as we're talking, I'm like, you know what I'm thinking about? If I had to find my more articulated expression through fashion. I'm best at it when I'm, when I'm, like, anchoring in on how do I feel. I'm a curvy girl. And so I, I, I think I kind of fell into the trap of following trends for curvy bodies. And a lot of that is, like, body con, a lot of tight stuff and whatever. And I love that. It's great. But I don't always feel the best. I feel the best when I'm dressed like a fairy. And now that you said that, I realize that 20% of my closet is all fairy stuff. It's glowy. It's, like, earthy. Yeah. And I'm like, when I feel when. And that's what I like. Teyana Taylor. Right. That's what we love about those women is, like, you can just, you feel them before you even see them, you know?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, yes, yes. And, and I think you have the type of body that a lot of people pay a lot of money for, and they spend a lot of, you know, time. Right? So it's like, if, if I've, if I've gone to a surgeon to get the curves that you were born with, it's like, I'm going to show it off. Right? So I think a lot of times women that have your proportions are wearing the super bodycon because they're like, hey, I invested in this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna show it off.

[Sheila Marie]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

You know, um, and so I, I, I understand why a lot of, kind of the, the curvy fashion is like, super bodycon, but for you, you're like, one, I was born with it. Um, and two, I don't feel drawn to that aesthetic. I, I like something that's a little bit more ethereal and fairy.

[Sheila Marie]

Like, I'm gonna start playing with that more. So I'll keep you posted. I'm gonna keep post about it. Yeah. And like, you know, play with my fairy side. I'm definitely going to, I'm going to the Renaissance Fair next week with my friend, and I'm like, I'm dressing up as a fairy. It's gonna be my first try.

[Brooke Devard]

You can even do. I Feel like you have such beautiful braids. Like, have you seen like the hair jewelry? Like the beads and stuff? And I think that's so pretty.

[Sheila Marie]

I love that. My bonus daughters, she's getting braids with tinsel in them. Like sparkly, like, ooh. I'm like, I love the kit that they can evolve. I love it.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

So before we get to the toolkit part of the interview, what I want to know what is a version of you that you feel like the world hasn't seen yet?

[Brooke Devard]

I'm not sure. I'm like, I want to give you a good answer, but I'm like, I'm not sure. I have a great answer for that. A version of the world at the.

[Sheila Marie]

Maybe you feel like they do see it.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I think because, because I share so much in real time. Me too. People, people have kind of, kind of seen it all. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'm going to think about that and if I have a better answer, I can get back to you.

[Sheila Marie]

There's such a lesson in that. There's such a lesson in that. In just being. You are so honest with that answer and also not judging yourself. It's like, you know what, let me think about that. Let me see where I really stand on that. And not just give you like a placeholder. An. And I think there's a great lesson in that.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

So at the end of each episode, we have a toolkit. It's an ever growing, unruly toolkit and each guest puts a little tool in the toolkit. If you were going to put a beauty tool in there for our girls, what would you leave them? Some people do an affirmation. Some people do like an outright, like a tip. Some people do a mantra. Whatever works for you.

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh. I would say, say the, the best part about having a self care routine is the routine of it. I think that people that look the best have the best skin. They are really dedicated to every morning and every night doing their skincare routine, you know, wrapping their hair up at night. There is so much beauty in taking time to care for yourself and to develop a routine that works for you and works for your skin type and works for your life style. I think moms especially need to hold that routine sacred. I certainly hold my nighttime routine sacred. It is a non negotiable for me. Every single night I'm doing all of the steps and I'm going to bed moisturized. Every single morning I'm doing all of the steps and I'm putting sunscreen On. I think that holding your routine, your self care routine as something sacred and something non negotiable changes your life.

[Sheila Marie]

You know what? That's so true. I'm realizing now like sometimes if I'm in a funk, if I just go do my routine, take a shower, put on my body butter, do my, my facial stuff, after that, like 20 minutes later, I'm like, okay, everything's not bad. All right. You know, you feel like a little better. Just the routine. I love a good routine. I feel like that that's the mature side of being an Aries, you know, young Aries hate routine. We like to be free. We don't want to be boxed in. But as I grow, I get more mature emotionally. I love the structure and routine and how that can calm our nervous system. It's really. So Brooke, you're super busy. You're a mom, you're a creator, you got all the things going on. We live in a world that's so loud and so busy. How do you curate moments of stillness? Or how do you find stillness in such a busy world?

[Brooke Devard]

It's such a great question. Before my daughter was born, November of 2024, I made a decision that I was going to. For the first time my entire adult life, I have been on the Internet in some capacity. Not even always creating, but just consuming. I decided I was going to delete all of the social media apps off of my phone. At first I was like, oh, I'm just not gonna log in. That didn't work. I. I did not have the self control to do that. I deleted them off of my phone. Really? And for the first time in a decade, I felt this stillness, this quietness, this getting back in touch with my inner thoughts, with my own internal monologue. Not having this like interruption of this feed of just like noise. It was life changing. Deleting all of my social media apps. And I did it for two months.

[Sheila Marie]

Wait, I have so many questions. So in the midst of doing all your podcasts and all of the things online that you have to be doing.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. So my daughter was born right before Thanksgiving. So I said okay. Once she is born, I'm. I was going on maternity leave anyway, right. So I wasn't gonna work in December and January. So I said okay. While the podcast is on hiatus and I am in just like truly my. My mat leave, like really just enjoying having a new newborn. I don't need to have social media. With my first child. I can remember doom scrolling while breastfeeding, right? Like at 3 o' clock in the morning. What's the first thing you want to do? You want to grab your phone and you want to just. It's the easiest thing. It's right there. I started reading books again. I started watching movies. I started just really. I started getting the New York Times, like, the physical paper that I now still have delivered to me every weekend so that I can read the paper. It feels so good to not be on social media. And even though I love social media and it's great and it connects us to people, there is. It's like a. It's like a vacation you can give yourself for free, to just take a break and walk away from it.

[Sheila Marie]

What do you feel like you learned from that, that period?

[Brooke Devard]

I think I learned how. And I don't want to be judgmental of people, but I think that a lot of people don't have their own opinions.

[Sheila Marie]

Baby. I just posted a video, video about that. I'm not going back and forth with you babes, because you don't even have an original thought in there. Queen. No. Respect. Respectfully.

[Brooke Devard]

Respectfully. Respectfully. They kind of wait to see what other people think to form their opinion, and they kind of wait to see. There was a movie that I saw on my social media break that I loved and I enjoyed, and I got back online, and everyone was like, oh, this was the worst movie ever.

[Sheila Marie]

What movie was it?

[Brooke Devard]

Amelia Perez.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, I didn't see that.

[Brooke Devard]

That. Okay. Well, it. You know, it was. It was controversial because it was about a trans woman, but it wasn't written from a trans perspective, which I totally understand. But as a piece of art, as a piece of storytelling, I found it to be incredibly powerful. I cried at the end. I was moved. I got online, you know, two months later during awards season, and everyone's saying, oh, it's the worst movie ever made. And I asked people, like, oh, what didn't you like about it? They're like, oh, well, I didn't see it. And I'm like, okay, so you're just, like, parroting what other people are saying. I think you don't realize getting input every second from so many different people, that just clutters your own mind. I felt like I had cleaned my room for the first time. Like, the channels were open. Everything was so much clearer. I could really hear my own thoughts and my own opinions. I wasn't looking to see what other people thought of it. I just decided my own opinion. I think that there's so much to be gained from just focusing on yourself and your own way of taking things.

[Sheila Marie]

Things in the lessons that you learned during that two month hiatus, how do you integrate them into your life now that back you're back on socials, I.

[Brooke Devard]

Am much more intentional about how much time I spend looking at a screen. And the moment I do feel like I'm just doom scrolling. You know when you get to that point where you're not even enjoying the video, you're just kind of getting that, aiming for that dopamine hit. I just know now that's when it's time for me to put down my phone. I also really think about is, is what I'm sharing additive to someone? Right? Am I, am I adding to the positive discourse or adding to positive storytelling? Whether it's sharing something about motherhood or sharing something about my business, is what I'm sharing additive? If so, great, then I'm on here for a reason. I'm going to post that, I'm going to engage with people, engage with my community and then I'm going to dip out. Like I don't need to spend time deep in the comment section of every TikTok video. As much fun as that is.

[Sheila Marie]

As.

[Brooke Devard]

Much fun as it is, as much.

[Sheila Marie]

Fun as clappy back is. I love that.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, I feel like we have you ever done a break?

[Sheila Marie]

No, but I desperately need to. Yes, but when you said, when I, when you said I deleted the apps, I physically, my mind was like, no, I am so I know I'm addicted. I am addicted to the dopamine hits and see so I'm a person who, I love ideas. I love hearing again, this is why I'm here. I love ideas. I love hearing people's perspectives. But I do think think it's warped in a way. I, I, I think I agree with you that sometimes I'll have a thought. So I also don't share a lot of normative thoughts. Sometimes I feel like sometimes I'm kind of on the fringe with what I think and so I'll have a thought and then I'll go online and I'll see that everybody disagrees with me and then I'll go, oh well maybe my thought was wrong.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I love other people's thoughts. What I found myself one really valuing more than ever were my podcasts. My podcast feed became like that was like my social media. So hearing what my favorite podcasters think. One of my favorite podcasts is Higher learning with Rachel and Van.

[Sheila Marie]

Love them.

[Brooke Devard]

I so looked forward to every episode that they would put out. Cause I Was like, okay, this is like me checking in with my friends. I started reading more substacks. I found that I was.

[Sheila Marie]

I gotta get into it. I've been hearing about substack a lot.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And then, yeah, just like reading, reading the New York Times. Like there are journalists and content creators that are being paid to make very high quality content that is so much more nourishing than like a 30 second video of someone that's basically engineering their thoughts for clickbait. So I found that I was still, you know, getting other people's perspectives, but in a way that was much more nutritionally dense than what you would find scrolling through your feed.

[Sheila Marie]

You know what this makes me think of? I hope I'm expressing it right. If I'm not, if you, if you hear this and I misrepresented this idea at all, let me know. YouTube. Brooke, have you heard of like dead Internet theory?

[Brooke Devard]

No, tell me.

[Sheila Marie]

So I hope I say it right, that it's the, it's the theory. Theory that all ideas have already been expressed online and that there's like these, these fake accounts and AI has like trained, like they know all the thoughts already and they're just regurgitating them to us. And then like you said, so someone who's real, like let's say you and me, sees this regurgitated thought and then we start to align our thoughts with that. And so that there's this silo of just. We're all talking about. There's no new thoughts, we're just all talking and regurgitating the same ideas. And I was like, I think I missed something in there, but I tried.

[Brooke Devard]

Either way, it makes me think of that. Yes. And the other thing is like, we all have the opportunity to be moved by great art. Right? Great art exists and it's there for us to consume. Whether that great art is in film, going to a museum again, picking up a book. Great art can move you. I, I enjoy the Internet, but I can't say I've been moved by things I've seen on the Internet and really opening up space and time to experience great art. Great writing, you know.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, right. Quality things that have been thought out, that have been, I want to say peer reviewed. That's a scientific term, but what I mean is like, they've really, they put their ideas through a strainer and really thought about them. There is something to be said about that. As an artist, I absolutely agree. There is no replacement for that and we need that. Like you said, even if it's a movie that we saw and that people didn't like it. I absolutely agree with you on the thought. I can still appreciate the way this was constructed. I appreciate the lighting. I appreciate the storytelling of it. And we need that to remind ourselves that we're human and we're not just robots here to go online and argue with each other in a comment section.

[Brooke Devard]

Very well said, Brooke.

[Sheila Marie]

Thank you so much. This conversation was amazing. Reminding us that it's okay to grow, it's okay to evolve, find new versions of yourself and sometimes be in the midst and not know what the next version of you is, but trust that you'll be on the right path. Path. Brooke, thank you so much for giving us language for the quiet work of evolution and showing us that permission isn't something we wait for. It's something that we give ourselves. And if you are listening and you have been waiting for the right time to evolve that, trying to find that next pivot, next step. This is your episode to just go trust yourself. You got this, Brooke. Where can the people find you? How can we support you?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, Naked Beauty. Well, first of all, I wanna say thank you so much for the interview. It was so fun to have this conversation with you and just talk about, yeah, evolving and changing and finding different versions of yourself. It's a lifelong journey, Naked Beauty. New episodes are every single Monday. Wherever you listen to PODC podcasts, you can find the Naked Beauty podcast on YouTube as well as if you prefer watching podcasts. And I am at Brooke Devard on Instagram and TikTok where I share my life and my journey as, as a creator and mom and entrepreneur and someone that loves beauty and fashion. So I hope some of you find me. Send me a DM if you, if you've met me through the podcast. And yeah, I can't wait to connect with more people. Thank you so much.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. And thank you, ladies. I hope you enjoyed this interview. I hope it helped you heal or grow. Love yourself more fully. As always. Thank you for getting unruly with us and we will see you next time. And Brooke, thank you for joining.

[Brooke Devard]

Thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

If you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice [e-mail] unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe. So you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of Unruly.

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[Brooke Devard]

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[Brooke Devard]

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