← UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE
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- [00:01]
Melissa Ifill
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- [01:18]
Sheila Marie
I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for Black women, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie and today we're discussing a topic that's incredibly close to my heart, healing through community and the power of sisterhood. I am so excited to introduce my favorite a guest whose work I truly, just truly embody the spirit of today's topic. The wonderful, the brilliant, the talented Melissa Ifill. Also known as IYA Ony Soyi. Melissa is a licensed therapist, Lukumi Priestess of Oshun, and a Sacred Transformation Wellness coach who helps you connect with your inner knowledge so you can choose your wholeness. She masterfully bridges the gap between traditional healing practices and clinical understanding, providing effective coping tools and a deep education on how our mind, body and spirit are all impacted by painful experiences. Today we'll dive into Melissa's journey on how she uses her knowledge and unique blend of traditional and modern healing practices to empower Women. We'll explore how we can use all these practices to support our wellness journey, reclaim our narratives, and co create the lives we desire. So if you are looking for inspiration on how to navigate your own path and healing, or if you're curious about creating more sisterhood in your life, this episode is for you. All right, so let's get ready, because today's conversation is going to be uplifting, enlightening, and of course, a little unruly. Melissa, welcome to Unruly.
- [03:14]
Melissa Ifill
I'm so happy to be here. I'm actually really excited about this conversation, so thank you for having me.
- [03:21]
Sheila Marie
Tell us why you're so excited.
- [03:23]
Melissa Ifill
Because, Sheila, you know, first of all, you and I, the relationship that we have, I think it breaks a lot of barriers. And I always enjoy being in conversation with you about the different ways in which you've healed, the different ways in which you support women in healing, and really opening up the conversation so that we can acknowledge that, you know, healing, especially healing for black women, does not have to look just one way.
- [03:48]
Sheila Marie
I love that. And you know what? This really wasn't the first question I was going to touch on, but I actually think our relationship is like a microcosm of how you can create sisterhood at large. Because we. We re. Whatever we resonate on together, we deeply resonate on together. And the things that don't that are different, we just let each other live. And I feel like, like you said, we cross a lot of boundaries. Like, I've worked with you in a coaching setting. I've also worked with you professionally. I've worked with you personally. I've worked with you with my husb. Still a high level of respect and boundaries. You never take it for granted. I never take you for granted. And I think that's, like, really special. So just wanted to put a pin in that, because I think we're going to come back to that. Yes. So one of my favorite things about working with you is your blend of using traditional spiritual tools and, like, modern clinical tools. And I just wanted to know from your perspective, what's the difference between a traditional tool and a modern tool when it comes to healing? And why is it so important for you to have both?
- [04:54]
Melissa Ifill
Ooh, that's a really good question. Look at my eyes. My eyes just got real big. That's a really good question. And actually it touches on something that I've struggled with professionally for a really long time and over the past few years have really allowed myself to sit in it. I think that for me, the work that I do. I focus on working with black and brown people, especially black women. And we need bottom up practices. So when I say bottom up practices, I mean practices that really focus and center the body and the spirit first and then the mind second. I think that when it comes to Western, you know, Western models of healing, what we're learning, when we see, you know, the popularity and the effectiveness of modalities like, you know, EMDR or brain spotting, or even the growth of plant medicine, what we're seeing is that people understand that our body needs to be addressed, our spirit needs to be addressed in addition to the brain. When it comes to these healing modalities and therapy. Right. We're seeing the most effectiveness there. And traditional modes of healing have been doing that for centuries. Right. When we look at even what EMDR is, when we look at what brain spotting is, it's a tapping into the subconscious mind.
- [06:15]
Sheila Marie
Oh, can you break down, for the listeners who might not be familiar with EMDR or brain spotting, what that is?
- [06:20]
Melissa Ifill
Yes. So essentially, the acronym EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which is a way that we use and connect both the right hemisphere of the brain and the left hemisphere of the brain so that you have the ability to connect to the information that is embedded in the body by supporting the body in feeling safe enough to connect to traumatic experiences and reprocess them. What we know is that the experience that you have isn't traumatic unless the body registers it as such. And that's why two people can go through the same experience and one person won't have the same impact as the other. So the experience itself, itself isn't traumatic unless the body registers it itself as such. And so with emdr, scientifically, you know, based on Western science, what we know is that you're using specific skills, right? Specific ways to connect the left part of the brain and the right part of the brain so that the body feels safe enough to reprocess experiences, so that the body no longer interprets them as unsafe and doesn't register them as traumatic in the same way that they were when they originally occurred. And brainspotting, although I'm not as familiar with the science behind that, it is a similar technique. Right. What we're doing is we're creating safety in the body so that the body can reprocess past experiences and you can relearn how to manage the impact of those experiences. Experiences today. Right. But what we know is that, you know, bilateral stimulation, which is the foundation of emdr, Right. Connecting the right part of the body and the left part of the body has been done for centuries through dance. It's been done for centuries through drumming. Right. It's been done for centuries through walking, through hiking, and talking with peers and community. And so while I always say that, you know, Western science is late, it is not groundbreaking. It is just using what we call modern tools, Westernized tools, to confirm ancient knowledge. For me, traditional healing practices take us back to basics. And if we understand that trauma lives in the body, then we also know that these healing modalities, I believe the cells of our body also remember them, and they connect to them in such a deep way, and they're so simple, and they can be formed into our everyday way of living so that healing is actually a way of life. And you don't have to go to someone outside of yourself to engage with that. And so that's why it's so important for me.
- [09:14]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, that's such a brilliant answer. And the whole time you're talking, I'm thinking about how I was radicalized where. When I first started getting into somatic healing practices, like, you know, I'm like, I'm exhausted with talk therapy. I can't talk anymore about my mom and my dad. Like, people are like, yeah, the trauma's trapped in your body. Everyone will recommend you. The Body Keeps the Score.
- [09:35]
Melissa Ifill
I hate that book. Read.
- [09:36]
Sheila Marie
The Body Keeps the Score. Read it. The Body Keeps the Score. And I remember reading that book and not being able to get through it. It was just too. It was almost like in my mind, like, cold, sterile, like a doctor's office, and I couldn't get through it. And then I think it was you who recommended My Grandmother's Hands. Did you? Yes, by Resma Manakim. And I was like, that's it. That's it. That's the missing link. And for those who don't know, my Grandmother's Hands is a book about how racial trauma and other types of trauma affect black bodies specifically. And so I just felt like there was just something missing from that conversation. But his approach just seemed. What's different from your perspective, why would you recommend that book over the Body Keeps the Score? Because I feel like that's the most. When we talk about body healing, people are going. The Body Keeps the Score is like the first book that's going to come up. But for black people. Why would you recommend.
- [10:31]
Melissa Ifill
But for me just to. Just to normalize your experience as a clinician. I couldn't get through the Body Keeps the Score. I. It didn't resonate with me at all because it's not practical enough. Right. It doesn't necessarily apply to the lived experiences that we have. There's actually another book. I cannot remember the name of it. I'll look it up while we're talking so that I can let you know. But. Oh, Childhood Disrupted is another book that I tend to recommend a lot as well because it's very practical. It talks about how the experiences that we have. It tells stories about the experiences that we have. It applies it to the things that we know and that we've lived through. So it resonates with us also when you look at the size of the books, Right. Like my grandmother's hands didn't have to take like 500 pages to explain a concept. Right. So the Body Keeps the Score is not a book that I actually recommend for a lot of reasons I won't get into. But, you know, one of them is, I think it's very difficult to digest for. For most people that I work with.
- [11:37]
Sheila Marie
Yeah. Okay. So thank you for affirming that for me. So it's interesting because you are a mental health professional, you are certified, you have a large clinical base of knowledge. And I feel like when it comes to western ideas about mental health, it's largely individualistic. And in a field like yours where you're a therapist, I feel like where the track that they put you on would probably seem so individualistic. And you deal with an individual client and you just focus on them and you're only talking to them in that this is your field that you're in. What is it that made you get so interested in community healing and. And getting away from that idea that it's only this individual that needs healing, that we need to have a focus on communal healing?
- [12:22]
Melissa Ifill
I love your questions and the depth of them. Like, they're bringing so much out of me. So first of all, I'm a systems theorist, right? So what does that mean? I'm a social worker by profession and training. Before I even went to grad school and began the clinical track, I worked in community with people, right. I worked with young women who were in a residential setting who had some of the most. Well, were labeled as some of the most difficult and egregious young women on a campus that I worked with. And when I worked with those young women, and this is my introduction to any sort of community based wellness work, you know, social work. And when I worked with those young women, what I noticed was everything that had to do with their challenges had to do with the environments that they were raised in and the environments that were supposed to be supporting them in the way that those environments thought about them. And they embodied that level of knowing and understanding because they didn't know themselves. They were not at an age where they could even know themselves, right. And so when I went to grad school and we were introduced to different ways of seeing this work, right? Whether it's community based, working with individuals and families, or it's more, you know, organizational work. I've always been a systems theorist, someone who understands that we are all a part of systems. We all interact with and engage with systems, and we all impact systems. I don't see myself as someone who is separate from the process, right? The therapeutic process for the, for the people that I work with. I'm a part of the system, right? We're all interacting and engaging with each other and picking up on energy and feeling energy. And so I've always approached every aspect of the work that I do from that lens. And then as I got more into working with the women that I work with and really drill down niche down into working specifically with black women mostly, I do have some black men that I work with as well. But what I noticed with the women in particular was the further that they got along on their journey, the more that they came to this place of feeling well, the lonelier they felt, the more they felt that they didn't have anyone to share these experiences with. They felt less like they could relate to the people who they grew up with. They felt like they were always trying to take care of the other people in their lives and bring them along on their journey and they weren't coming. And it really hindered their growth because some people felt the need because, you know, we have such a yearning for community. Some people really felt the need to stop being on their journey, to fit back into the communities that they were in. Right. They weren't afraid, firmed in their wellness. And so, you know, I started developing with intention, my own community in 2020, June of 2020. So the height of the pandemic and actually the death of, you know, Jasmine Waters, who was a writer on this Is Us, and she was very well known in the industry, in the film industry and the entertainment industry at large. Her death by suicide really impacted me and it really impacted me because what I would discover through her death is that there were a few clients I was working with who knew her personally, right? And they did not know each other. And these women who I was working with who knew her, but did not know each other. It was very interesting to hear them each feel saddened at not knowing that there was some shared experience there. Right. As much as she seemed to be struggling, they were also struggling. As much as she seemed to feel alone, they also felt alone. And there was no opening, there was no language that they felt that they had to be able to communicate with each other, these experiences. And in fact, they were also very reminiscent about the judgment that they had for her as they witnessed some things occur in her and not knowing how to support her. Right. And so I'm sharing that to say that's how I started my, you know, first community Raw was knowing that my clients had been asking me to start something for a long time where they felt like they could be in shared community, where they felt like they could, you know, be supported and support others. And her passing propelled me to actually push forward and do it. And so that was the first community that I started. And we started as, you know, group education, processing, and then just really moving into sharing physical space through retreats. And then as I went on my own spiritual journey into my priesthood, many of those women wanted to come with me and still share space with me. I found that they were also spiritually inclined in different ways, in different spiritual traditions and in different faiths, and still wanted to be in community with me and learn from me in that way. And so our relationship has evolved over time. And actually, you know, I sunsetted Raw for a few reasons at the end of 2023, and we've moved into a community together called Reflecting Joy.
- [17:47]
Sheila Marie
Wow.
- [17:48]
Melissa Ifill
During that work, what I also noticed is how being in community propelled their own healing journeys. It was, like, astounding to me. Women who I had been working with for years, who had been doing well, right, on their journeys, were all of a sudden doing, like, astronomically well. They things that concepts that, like, we were trying to push through and get through in ways of being for years. It was all of a sudden like, they got it. Like, they just got it overnight. And I really couldn't understand that phenomenon. So I started doing some research, and what I discovered is when we look at the trauma responses that we're most trained to know about, most of us, right? We look at fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Right? Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Nobody talks about the tend and befriend trauma response. The who Tend and befriend trauma response.
- [18:47]
Sheila Marie
This is my first time hearing that.
- [18:48]
Melissa Ifill
I don't tend and befriend trauma response.
- [18:51]
Sheila Marie
Tell us, is this Like a people pleasing thing.
- [18:53]
Melissa Ifill
So it can be. But let's talk about it. So in about 2000, there was some research done by, I believe she's a psychologist. Her name is Shelly Taylor. And what she started to notice when, you know, as she was leading up her own research team that was mostly women, was that when stress would occur within their team, they would not get into competition mode. Right. They would not get into competition mode. They would not get into a space of wanting to fight each other or argue with each other or one up each other. So she noticed this and as she began to do her own research, just to kind of dig into this more, what she realized is that most of the research done with regards to trauma responses were done with men and were done with male animals. Right.
- [19:48]
Sheila Marie
Wow. I'm so shocked.
- [19:49]
Melissa Ifill
You're so shocked, right? Yeah. So when we talk about addressing adrenaline and cortisol being the, you know, primary chemicals that, you know, are released during stress, what's also released during stress is oxytocin.
- [20:07]
Sheila Marie
Really?
- [20:08]
Melissa Ifill
Yes. And estrogen amplifies.
- [20:12]
Sheila Marie
Isn't oxytocin a connector?
- [20:14]
Melissa Ifill
It's a connector, yes.
- [20:16]
Sheila Marie
Right. Like it bonds.
- [20:17]
Melissa Ifill
It bonds. Estrogen amplifies the impact of. Of oxytocin.
- [20:23]
Sheila Marie
Oxytocin.
- [20:25]
Melissa Ifill
So in women, when stress occurs naturally, because we have estrogen and oxytocin, one of the things that we look to do is we look to take care and we look to develop bonds and connections when we're stressed. When we're stressed.
- [20:43]
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- [22:19]
Melissa Ifill
When we're in healthy environments, healthy environments where we feel safe, where we feel like we have the ability to connect to others, tend and befriend supports us in nurturing people who we see are going through a difficult time and receiving nurturing from others. It enhances our ability to connect. When we're in unhealthy environments or we don't have a strong sense of self, this is when we get into the fawn response and the people pleasing response because we're so used to negating self. So what I've seen happen in the community that I'm working with is because these are women who have already been on their healing journey for some time, we're consistently engaging in conversations about wellness and we're doing different holistic activities together. What's happening is, and you know, this is not perfect because we're human. So I'm not saying that this is like some perfect utopia, but what I'm saying is more often than not, what happens is I'm witnessing in their individual journeys. There's an ability to be reflective of the self. There's an ability to understand the impact that they're having on other people. There's an ability to recover from hurt and harm within the group and outside of the group. And there's an ability to hold themselves accountable for showing up differently.
- [23:45]
Sheila Marie
That's so beautiful.
- [23:46]
Melissa Ifill
And also because they've all done work with me, when I'm holding up a mirror and I'm like, okay, so this is what I'm seeing. This is what's happening. There's a level of connection and trust that they have in the process to also be able to continue that work, it's not perfect. I'm not saying that, you know, everybody is some. But more often than not, what I'm seeing is actual Growth and, and. And tangible development of the self in ways that promotes further healing. That promotes further healing.
- [24:19]
Sheila Marie
That sounds like a utopia to me. I want to go. So we are talking about sisterhood today and connecting. What would you say to somebody who's kind of like me? I felt like since the pandemic, I feel like I'm actually in a good place, but it was a journey where I fel. I. I'm really good at creating connection online, but then that gets a little bit hazy in person. What would you say to a woman who has that experience?
- [24:48]
Melissa Ifill
Well, let me ask you a few questions first, if you don't mind. Okay. And of course, feel free to share what you want. And. And you don't. What feels hazy in person.
- [25:00]
Sheila Marie
For me, personally, I feel like I saw the metaphor the other day. This makes perfect sense to me. When I'm around people, it's almost like. And this is probably a trauma response from being attuned when I was a child. And then there's, like, spiritual things too, but I feel like there's. Everyone has, like, a radio station, and when I'm around a lot of people, there's all radio stations playing at the same time, different stations, and it's just draining and overwhelming. Another thing that I find hazy in person is that I don't know if I'm Nero Spicy or whatever. I know you'd be telling me not to diagnose myself on Tick Tock Baby. Every day is something. But I really feel like I have to mask when I'm around people. Like, there, you know, I, I, ever since I was a child, I feel like, wow, people lie all the time. Like, how are you? I'm great, wonderful. I'm like, you're not wonderful. You know, so in my mind, I have to mask because I know that there's a certain level of lying and stuff that you have to engage in to be polite and not offend people. And it's just draining.
- [25:59]
Melissa Ifill
Yeah. So I'm grateful. Thank you so much for sharing. Because I wanted to ask because for a lot of people, there are different things that are occurring. Right. So since the pandemic, you know, you know, many of us were home. Some of us were home alone, you know, and if we weren't alone, we had a lot of choices and outs when it comes to, like, social activities. Right. I'm not feeling well. Maybe I was excited, exposed. Oh. I'm just choosing not to come so we could be really selective over who we spent time with. Right. I think that prior to the pandemic we got so used to masking, we got so used to the feeling of discomfort in the body that we were well adept at suppressing that, like, state of being. And it didn't even register to us that it was something wrong with it. Many of us found comfort, at least in the beginning of the pandemic, we found comfort with, wow, like, I can just be. I don't have to get up and like, put on this outfit, right? Whether it's a literal or a figurative outlet outfit, rather for being. And then reengaging with people, especially in 2023 and 2024, people are beginning to notice the disturbance in the body. And because you've had a break from that for a period of time, it's no longer, quote, unquote normal. It is no longer expected. It is no longer expected. And so I would say pay attention to that. You ain't got to be around everybody who you feel like I'm right?
- [27:30]
Sheila Marie
Like, yeah, I think I went through a whole roller coaster where I felt like, oh, okay, cut off everybody. What do I do? And now I feel like I'm at a good place where I'm so. I love my own time so much. I love being with myself so that it feels like I'm first my own friend and then I don't, I don't, I don't need people in the same way.
- [27:51]
C
You see spirit fingers.
- [27:52]
Melissa Ifill
You see spirit fingers first, your own friend. Because here's the thing that happens when we're around people and we feel uncomfortable when we're not our own friends, when we don't like ourselves, the first thing that we tell ourselves is that there's something wrong with us. Ooh, I must be feeling anxious and there's something wrong with me. Sometimes you are a highly sensitive person. If you're someone who has an experience of trauma, and I know this is, you know, trauma is a buzzword. We could have that conversation another day, right? But, but trauma is simply the body undergoing stressful situations. So we do undergo trauma, some, some aspect of it every day. But if you have experienced chronic stress and you have had to be hyper aware of others to keep yourself safe, your brain knows how to attune to other people really, really, really well. Very well. And that's a skill, right? That's a skill. And so if you are a person who knows how to attune to others very well, you, you may be picking up on the truth. They may very well be a liar. They may very well be, you know, someone who is dishonest. Right. And you have a choice. If you are safe within your body, if you know yourself, if you trust yourself, if you know how to cope, you can choose to show up in that space and show just enough of yourself to get by, show just enough of yourself to keep yourself safe. But here's the thing, it has to be a version of yourself. What happens when we mask often is we pick up another aspect of someone else and we put it on our.
- [29:29]
Sheila Marie
Take like a meat jacket and put.
- [29:31]
Melissa Ifill
It on, and we put it on, right? It is, has nothing to do with us. And so we're constantly having to like, overwork in our brain to act, to perform. And the performance is what's very, very difficult. We have to understand that we have versions of ourselves and not everybody gets to have access to all of us. But if you're showing up as a version of yourself, and it's still an authentic version of you, even if it's not the full you, you will find yourself less feeling, less likely to feel drained, less likely to feel overwhelmed, and you're activating your choosing. Remember one of the things that, that happens when we have experiences of pain and they get stored in our body as a traumatic experience is there's no choosing. There's no choosing. Loss of control, loss of power. And so if you're showing up in a space and you feel like you have no control, no power, physical autonomy, right? Or emotional autonomy over how you're showing up, that experience too gets registered and joined in with the past painful experience to the body. Now the body is constantly trying to keep itself safe in that environment. But if you're aware, I'm going into this place and I feel like these people are liars, you know, I'm going into this space and I don't feel safe. You can actively choose to care for yourself before you get there. And then the aspect of yourself that you want to show up as so that you're authentic and so that you're functioning in autonomy that's going to support the body in feeling safe there so that you don't feel so drained.
- [31:18]
Sheila Marie
I love that I was, I was thinking of you, all of your phrase that you gave me a long time ago, like, you get to choose. And I think I come back to that all the time. I think that what makes me more effective in my connection with women now, like, and, and I, I feel like it's more healthy and it serves both parties better, is that I get to choose. I get to choose which aspect I bring to myself. And as you said, Before I thought if I didn't bring my whole self, if they didn't get to see my whole self, I didn't feel like I could express my whole self. If they can express, accept my whole self, then there's something wrong with the dynamic. And now I realize, like, no, I, I don't need to be seen by my whole self, by everybody. Like, they might be able to just see this aspect. Like, I have friends now who relate to my reality TV experience. That might be the aspect that we see each other in very clearly. I have other friends who have no idea what that experience is like. And so I just think the, the idea is you get to choose. Right. I want to just put a pin in there.
- [32:21]
Melissa Ifill
Absolutely. And because you see yourself, it is no longer necessary for other people to validate all of you. And that also brings up a good point. It doesn't have to be that you're refining yourself because these people are bad, negative, evil, hurtful. It could just be that you connect with them differently. And it doesn't make them wrong or you wrong. It's just that you recognize where you connect and you want to honor that without having to make it something other than what it actually is.
- [32:52]
C
As the summer sizzle fades, it's time to establish a wellness routine that's here to stay. Ritual is shaking up the supplement industry with their focus on traceable science and high quality ingredients. They've got every base covered from their clinically backed women's 18 multivitamin to their stress relief and sleep melatonin, both using first of its kind bio series technology designed to optimize formula delivery for a limited time. Get up to 40% off your first month@ritual.com podcast.
- [33:18]
Melissa Ifill
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- [33:20]
C
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- [33:30]
Melissa Ifill
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- [33:38]
C
Of hard working Americans in factory towns.
- [33:41]
Sheila Marie
All over the country.
- [33:42]
Melissa Ifill
Check out their stuff in stores everywhere.
- [33:44]
C
Or pick up something awesome@american-giant.com.
- [33:49]
Sheila Marie
Love that. You know what I want to ask? This is like shifting directions just a little bit. But I want to ask, do you think that there's a difference in the way that women go about creating community versus men?
- [34:02]
Melissa Ifill
Wow. This is a conversation I've been having a lot recently. I've been having it a lot recently with the men in my life. Absolutely. I Do. I think some of it has to do with socialization. And I also think some of that has to do with, you know, how the chemicals in our body react to things differently at different ages. What I'm noticing, I'm a woman of a certain age, child. So, you know, being over 40, almost 50. What I'm noticing and what I'm, you know, coming to understand is that biologically, when you have tested testosterone drives people who have more testosterone in their body to see the world a certain way, to be connected to their emotions differently. And in addition to that, socialization trains men to be more concerned with productivity. So we have productivity through sports, productivity through finances, productivity, productivity through work, productivity through labor. Right through, like, physical labor. And I think that women, we have estrogen, which interacts with our body and our brain chemistry a certain way. And I also think that we're socialized to be in relationships through nurturing and caring and conversation. Even the types of games that we play when we're younger demonstrates that. And so I think that women have the benefit here of being able to develop relationships where we get to be vulnerable. And I don't think that men allow themselves permission to be vulnerable until they're older. Right. And because when they're older, they have less testosterone, and so they are able to feel things a little bit differently. And then I see the men in my life who were in their 40s, approaching 50, more open about the experiences, seeking relationships with each other differently, wanting to be intentional about relationships. And I. And I feel like that. Like, that has something to do with the chemical makeup at our different ages, in addition to how we're. We're socialized.
- [36:18]
Sheila Marie
So, yeah, I never considered that. That we have different levels of estrogen or testosterone or men have testosterone at different ages, and that different. Again, it's really bringing me back to. I did an episode with Koya Webb, and we were talking about plants and what I've learned from my plants. And one of the biggest lessons, I always come back to this. I think I told you too, about this, that just. I don't expect them to be flourishing all year round. Like, it's normal. It's very normal to have moments where they're. They're wilting or, you know, it looks like they're dying, but they're not. And so it just. When I look at them, I'm reminded, like, Sheila, don't expect yourself to have the same level of connection or commitment to every relationship all the time. Like, there might be moments where you spend a lot of time Together, and then you might not see each other in six months, and that's okay. I wanna have one more question, and then I wanna actually dive a little bit into more about how you do your work. One more question about community is. Our episode is titled Healing Through Community, the Power of Sisterhood. When you hear that episode title, what is missing from that conversation? When you imagine what that conversation is about, what's usually missing?
- [37:28]
Melissa Ifill
Hmm. That we should expect pain.
- [37:33]
Sheila Marie
Tell me more.
- [37:34]
Melissa Ifill
You know, whenever we think about any kind of community, and when we think about any, you know, type of connection, we always think about it from a fairytale perspective. We think about what feels good. What's gonna feel good? Ooh, I'm gonna get to know these people. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. But we should expect pain because we're dealing with humans. We're dealing with humans who have their own experience, who have their own worldview, and who have their own way of approaching things, right? And, you know, pain is on a spectrum because it could be some people who were just mean and difficult. But pain also shows up when people have the best of intentions to love you, Right? Pain also shows up when. When people want to, like, hold you close and there's something prickly about who you are. Right? And so when we walk into relationships and we honor. Just like you were saying with the plants, right? That, like, people show up in different seasons in different ways, and it feels different to us based on, you know, our own perception. When we honor love, when we honor love and we start there and we trust love in community and relationship, when pain shows up, we can honor that there may be an opportunity for repair, and then we can honor that. Even in loving people, you get to choose not to repair. And that can still be love. That can still be love, right? Or you can choose not to repair right now, and that can still be.
- [39:05]
Sheila Marie
Love, and that can still be loved. That's. That's. I imagine that's very freeing for a lot of women to hear.
- [39:13]
Melissa Ifill
It is. It's scary, though. Like, the first response I get when I say to people, oh, my gosh, you have this new relationship, this new friendship. So now let's talk about what happens when they hurt you. People's eyes always get super big, like, what you mean. No, no, no, no, no. What happens when. Not if. When.
- [39:32]
Sheila Marie
It's when.
- [39:33]
Melissa Ifill
When whatever they do hurts you. And so, yeah, it can be freeing, but. But. But first we have to get past the, you know, Pollyanna ish thinking about what it means to be in relationship, because there Will be hurt.
- [39:46]
Sheila Marie
There will be hurt 100%. And, and I would agree with you in like, in another conversation we can have about relationships at large, even romantic ones. I think that the Pollyannish thing, I love that I was taking that word that that thinking is applied to relationships all the time. And I'm like, are these people are having real relationships? This sounds.
- [40:04]
Melissa Ifill
No, people are ending relations. Right. Or they're causing the end of relationships because of their own belief systems more than they're having real loving, honest relationships. Yeah.
- [40:17]
Sheila Marie
Ch. That's a whole another conversation. I want to talk about you for a few seconds and then I want to actually go into our toolkit, which is my favorite part, because unruly is all about putting it into practice. But before we do that, I want to know, like, what self care practices do you engage in to keep yourself grounded and energetically, spiritually, emotionally safe in the line of work that you do? Because you hear people's deepest, darkest traumas? People are crying. I know me, I've been crying before. Like, you hear really sad things. And how do you deal with that? What do you do to protect yourself?
- [40:57]
Melissa Ifill
You know, protection is both preemptive and reparative. Right. And so I want to start by being honest. I'm not one of those people that's going to sit here and tell you that like what other people tell me doesn't impact me. I know this about myself for a lot of different reasons. Because of my own lived experience, how my own brain works, how my spirit works. I do take in like I take in to my spiritual being and into my physical vessel. What happens in the work that I do, I do. And I'm blessed to be in a spiritual system where we receive divination and information about spiritual tools that work specifically for us and, and that specifically support us. Right. So you. I'm supposed to. Oh, I don't. I'm not this not, you know, perfect. So I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to also work, always work with water next to me in a vessel because the water takes the energy and it, it cleanses the space and protects me. And so that the water is something that I use and I'm supposed to have it next to me and, and change it out, you know, each session or at the very least at the end of each day. I'm, I'm not always that great with that.
- [42:12]
Sheila Marie
Is that a technique that anyone could try or is that specifically because you are ordained?
- [42:19]
Melissa Ifill
So, so water. So as a priest, because I've been through ceremony There are things that I know will work for me specifically, but nature is nature. Right? And so one of the things that when I work with my clients and we're discovering what natural elements work for them, it is very much trial and error. And so anybody can try it. I do have clients who we recommend that they sleep with water underneath their bed. That's when they get the best sleep. Right. Or they have to have water next to them at all times. So. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, anything that I say, I happen to know that it works for me. You know, I have some other, you know, spiritual medicines that I have to engage in that I won't talk about that are specific to me, but, you know, the things that I'll mention today, you know, anybody can try them for themselves. So, you know, working with water, Florida water, is something that I do keep next to me now that I keep next to me at all time. I don't know if you can see this bottle. It's, like, almost gone.
- [43:25]
Sheila Marie
I got mine, too.
- [43:27]
Melissa Ifill
I always have that next to me. It, you know, goes on my hands. And I know that I feel energy a lot on my shoulders. So I cleanse my shoulders, and I cleanse my heart. I, you know, smell it. That supports me. And baths, you know, spiritual baths that I create for myself are things that are also helpful. And I. I also make my own lotion, and when I'm really on it, I make my own soap. And. And I include spiritual elements in there that support my physical vessel and my spiritual, you know, vessel throughout the day.
- [44:01]
Sheila Marie
Wow. All right. I like this. We're making our own soap. You know, we're cleansing, we're cleaning, we're doing all the things. And y'all gonna be doing all the things, too, because now we have the toolkit, and this is the part. Because the unruly is not just about thinking and. And, you know, the intellectual side of it. It's also about what actionable, practical things can we implement from these conversations into our everyday lives? So, Melissa, do you have. In terms of community, in terms of. Of creating sisterhood, curating it, is there some, like, maybe takeaway that they can add to their toolkit? A journaling exercise, an affirmation, anything you have.
- [44:42]
Melissa Ifill
So the thing that I always want to encourage, period, but, you know, I'm on a specific journey with this, with, you know, my community this year, is how are you listening to yourself? And so here's why this is important for community. When we're in community with people, we find it hard to hear Difficult things from others. If we can't even listen to difficult things that. That our body is trying to communicate. Right. We can't be a mirror to others in community if we don't want to look at the mirror that we are for ourselves. And we can't receive mirrorship from others, which is essentially what community is supposed to do. Right. It's supposed to do. So the journey that we're all on in my community this year is stop being told what to do and how are you listening to yourself to connect with what the self wants you to do. And so one exercise that I like to give often is something called the check in. Right. But we modify it just a little bit here. So the check in is based off of the premise that the body is always giving you information that we've been trained to suppress. Right. And so the check in encourages you to find your calm, connect to the feeling, ask the feeling a question, and then listen to the first answer. And then free write. Right? Free write and journal that response, assuming that it's correct. Right. So deep breathing to find your calm, connecting to any disturbance in the body, asking it what it's trying to communicate to you, and then free writing out that information. And actually what I'll do is I'll include my model for the check in. I have a meditation that I guide people through with the check in. So I'll include that on my website so that your listeners can go access it, use it, and try it out as a tangible tool to connect to the messages in their body so that they can stop suppressing. I find that people who become their best friends, who trust themselves, find it a lot easier to trust other people and to be in community with them as well.
- [47:03]
Sheila Marie
Correct. Can you lead me through it really quickly? Maybe we don't have time to do the journaling.
- [47:08]
Melissa Ifill
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we can talk you through it real quick. All right.
- [47:11]
Sheila Marie
Okay.
- [47:11]
Melissa Ifill
So I want you to think about one place in your body where you've been finding or feeling a nudging. Maybe something's been happening day to day and you feel a little disturbance, but you're not quite sure what it is, or you simply feel like a little butterflies or something, but you're not quite sure what it is. Do you have that?
- [47:34]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, my neck right here.
- [47:36]
Melissa Ifill
Yes, absolutely. So what I would like for you to do is to be able to engage in some deep breaths. Do you want me to guide you through breathing or do you feel comfortable guiding yourself?
- [47:46]
Sheila Marie
You can guide me in case anyone's listening and they want.
- [47:48]
Melissa Ifill
Absolutely. So then we're gonna do four, four, four. Breath. Okay.
- [47:51]
Sheila Marie
Oh, my favorite.
- [47:52]
Melissa Ifill
Absolutely. But whenever you're ready. And I'm gonna ask you if you can, because the best way to do this is to elongate the spine to give access to the heart. So just sitting straight up. And if you have your feet on the floor, if it's available to you to kind of plant your feet on the floor so that you can feel the ground beneath you. And whenever you're ready, I'm going to ask you to begin to breathe in deeply. Simply noticing your breath first. Noticing what the body feels like first. What's comfortable and what's uncomfortable. And deepening your breath on each cycle of breath. Breathing in and breathing out. Deepening the breath each time you breathe in and breathe out. And one way that you know that you're deepening your breath as your belly expands and your chest begins to rise. Yeah. Releasing the breath through the mouth on each exhale. Excellent. Excellent. Now we're going to begin 444 breaths. Breathing in for a count of four. Holding it. Four. Releasing at four. And whenever you're ready, begin to breathe in. 1, 2, 3, 4. Hold, 2, 3, 4. Release through the mouth. 2, 3, 4. Excellent. Excellent. We're going to do that just two more times. Two more times. Breathing in, 2, 3, 4. Hold, 2, 3, 4. Release the breath through the mouth. 2, 3,. Excellent. And just one more round. Breathing in 2, 3, 4. Hold', 2, 3, 4. Release, 2, 3, 4. And I simply want you to call your attention to that feeling in the body that you highlighted earlier. Noticing where it is, giving it permission to even amplify as you continue to engage in deep breath and ask it what it's telling you. What does it want you to know? What information is it holding? And whenever it comes to you, you can open your eyes and let me know.
- [50:40]
Sheila Marie
It's something like, you don't have to hold on so tight. It's okay.
- [50:46]
Melissa Ifill
Like, yeah. Yeah. And so maybe because you have a lot of irons in the fire right now, like a lot of things that are going on.
- [50:54]
Sheila Marie
Yes.
- [50:54]
Melissa Ifill
You know, what are you holding on to with regards to those things? If you don't mind sharing, maybe I.
- [51:01]
Sheila Marie
Am recovering from the trauma response that I have to take care of everything. I have to micromanage everything. I have to be on top of everything. If I don't do that, everything will fall down like a house of cards. And also things got to be hard to be good.
- [51:16]
Melissa Ifill
Oh, that's a whole nother conversation. That's a whole nother conversation because I.
- [51:20]
Sheila Marie
Was letting that go.
- [51:25]
Melissa Ifill
That's a whole another conversation. Yes, that's another, that's another episode. So my, my advice to you, like my homework for you? You know, I was like that. You know, end with homework. We love, we love homework. It's a simple journal. On journaling, on trust. What does trust look like in this era of business for you? And I would even say in this era of life for you because those of us who own our own businesses, our businesses are so intertwined with our lives. And so what does this season of trust look like for you? And a free write, free text journaling, nothing scripted or structured. Just, just, just start with that prompt and just write and see what comes out.
- [52:07]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much for that. I hope if you're listening, you take that tool with you because I'm over here. My brain is already firing like so many ideas. So Melissa, where can the people find you if people want to know more about you, want to work with you?
- [52:21]
Melissa Ifill
Oh, so the best place to find me is melissa ifill.com that website is still up. It's a little old, but you can contact me through there. But I am active on Instagram and these days, child, they done got me into TikTok so. So you can find me on Both Instagram and TikTok. Alyssa Ifill l CSW Melissa. I f I l l l CSW on, on both platforms.
- [52:47]
Sheila Marie
Melissa, thank you so much. I, I mean, I just love you down. All right. That was such a powerful conversation, wasn't it? I know. So let's dive into one of my favorite parts of the show. This is the unruly community call in section. And I love this hearing from you. So let's dive right into today's question.
- [53:10]
Melissa Ifill
Hey, Sheila. So my question is, as somebody who was, who has a severe mother wound, I, my mother are doing better in our relationship. I'm 20, I'm 26 years old. But growing up, my relationship with my mother was very, very traumatic. I feel like that has now affected me in my adulthood when it comes down to showing off my talent and the things that I'm good at and actually living the life I want to live. Because, because I'm so wounded by how I was treated as a young person trying to explore my creativity. And when I say young person, I specifically mean from between the ages of like 10 to like 14, around that age. And so that has severely affected my self confidence and my belief in being able to be the person I want to see Myself as because I'm scared of my mother seeing me, you know, doing well. How do I overcome that and be the person I want to be and explore all the things that I know I'm good at when I have this mother wound.
- [54:10]
Sheila Marie
This call is asking about something that I know affects so many women that I work with and that is the mother wound. That's maybe one of the most requested topics that I get when I work with women is they want to know how can I either heal or move past a traumatic experience with my mother. And so she's 26 years old. She says she has a severe mother wound and it's affecting her self esteem and her ability to self actualize. For this, I think you're the perfect candidate for some inner child work. I talk about this in my book as well and I'll just give you one little quick exercise that I think you can do. So you say that a lot of feelings come up in the present day, but they're associated with childhood wounds. Present day. When these feelings come up, I want you to pause and I want you to close your eyes and see if you can think about how old are you when you first felt that feeling? What age in your life is most strongly correlated to that feeling? Right? And trust yourself, whatever you see, just go with it. So if you close your eyes, what age are you when you feel this feeling? And then I would say, I would ask you to ask that that girl, however old she is, speak directly to her and ask her what do you need now that you didn't get then? And whatever it is, give it to yourself now. So if I were to close my eyes and, and reconnect with the younger version of myself and I said that I didn't get acknowledgment, I would find a way to acknowledge myself right now in the present moment and whatever that means to you. But the more you engage in your inner child work and you re parent yourself, the less that this mother wound will have a hold on your present day experience. Much love. Thank you so much for sending that in. And to the rest of the unruly community, if you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice note@speakpipe.com unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of unruly.