← UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE
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- [00:00]
Ritual Ad
As the summer sizzle fades, it's time to establish a wellness routine that's here to stay. Ritual is shaking up the supplement industry with their focus on traceable science and high quality ingredients. They've got every base covered, from their clinically backed women's 18 multivitamin to their stress relief and sleep melatonin, both using first of its kind bio series technology designed to optimize formula delivery. For a limited time, get up to 40% off your first month@ritual.com podcast. With the summer sizzle starting to fizzle, cooler heads are looking to lock in a wellness routine fit for the fall and beyond. Lucky for you, Ritual's high standards don't drop with the temperature. Fully committed to traceable science and sourcing, Ritual is shaking up the supplement industry with high quality ingredients and scientifically developed formulas. With them, you know what you're taking, where it comes from, and why it's important. They've got every base covered, from their clinically backed women's 18 multivitamin to groundbreaking options like stress relief and sleep melatonin, which both use first of its kind bio series technology designed to optimize formula delivery. And right now, for a limited time, get up to 40% off your first month@ritual.com podcast.
- [01:11]
Sheila Marie
Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for black women, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting.
- [01:24]
Madison Utter
Down with some amazing women who are.
- [01:26]
Sheila Marie
All navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Welcome to Unruly. Today we're diving into a topic that's all too real. Okay. And that's burnout. In today's fast paced world, especially as black women, we're often expected to be on all the time. Always connected, always pushing, answering work, emails, social media, that constant urge to check our phones. Guilty. It just all adds up. And underneath that, there's a quiet exhaustion, a sense that we're just losing pieces ourself in this digital noise. And so joining us to break down this madness is the wonderful and talented Madison Utter. A cultural powerhouse behind iconic brands like the Museum of Ice Cream. My bonus daughter would be screaming right now. Tilden and Good Eaton. She's also created a candle designed to help people slow down and find calm. Beyond her impressive work, Madison's an advocate for mental health, mental wellness, and stepping back to reclaim our peace Today, she is here to share how unplugging can help us reconnect with ourselves. Madison, welcome to Unruly. Okay. We need you now more than ever.
- [02:51]
Madison Utter
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
- [02:53]
Sheila Marie
Yes. I'm so honored to speak with you. I was, like, fangirling out. I was researching. I want to start with a little icebreaker, a little fun, because we're talking about unplugging and burnout today. When was the last time that you took a totally unplanned day off? And what did you end up doing that day?
- [03:10]
Madison Utter
Oh, day after the election, I took the full day off. I sat on the couch and watched Real Housewives all day. Like, Potomac, Salt Lake City. I got caught up. I did nothing. I canceled all my meetings. That's why I'm late today, because I had. I took every meeting that I canceled on Wednesday and Tuesday, this morning, and. Yeah. And I don't feel bad about it at all.
- [03:33]
Sheila Marie
Good. I still feel like it's too soon. Right. I still don't feel ready to be back.
- [03:37]
Madison Utter
Oh, I know. I know. And it's this. I keep encouraging people that as much as we can to rest over these next couple weeks, because we still have. We're still under the Democrats right now. Right. We actually still have a couple of weeks, and I guess you could say a little bit over a month to experience life as we've known it. And I don't mean that in a morbid way, but just in a way of giving yourself complete permission to rest and to recharge and to go within and do you need to do to take care of yourself? Because if we've learned anything, it's that complacency or belief that other people are gonna figure it out is not a stance we can take moving forward. So rest up. Take all the time off you want. I'm gonna keep taking my Real Housewife days off. I've decided my husband is like, what are you doing? I'm like, salt Lake City is on.
- [04:27]
Sheila Marie
I know. I'm like, listen, I'm watching the Plathville show. I'm watching all my shows. I'm doing it. Me. I took Wednesday off. That's. Did you preemptively plan to have Wednesday off, or was it like, you saw the election results and were like, I'm not doing this tomorrow.
- [04:44]
Madison Utter
I preemptively planned. I said to myself and told my assistant that if she won, then I would open up time on my calendar, because I feel like I would have been able to just, like, emotionally take on the things that I've been working on recently. But my husband and I canvassed a couple times in Pennsylvania and we realized a bit ago that it was probably not going to go in our favor. And so we. We both took the day. We always. We plan to take the day off as a result. Yeah.
- [05:16]
Sheila Marie
Oh, man. So it's so hard to switch back to an icebreaker question after that. Right. Because it's like it's such a loaded topic and there could be episodes on this election and the results and the implications alone. But I am going to switch back to burnout really quick. If you could keep just one app on your phone, what would it be and why?
- [05:41]
Madison Utter
Insight Timer. Like, no hesitance. That's. It's a meditation. Yes. But it also has talks, it has music. It ha. I love that app. That is my go to self care app. It's honestly probably the most valuable app to me in my life. Everything else, I'm like, whatever. And my Oura Ring app is probably the other one. I love that Oura Ring app. I'm one of those people who lives by an aura ring.
- [06:05]
Sheila Marie
So wait a minute. First, what's insight? What do you use insight app for? Tell people if they're interested.
- [06:10]
Madison Utter
Yeah. So Insight Timer is a meditation, self help, self work app. You can choose between meditation music, so anything from, like, I guess you could say like brain waves to, you know, bowls banging sea water, like whatever you want the actual sound to be. That's one vertical. The other one is guided talks and conversations. So you can literally be like, I need something uplifting. That's 10 minutes by, you know, a person of color. And you can find a guided talk for that moment. And the last section that they have is music. So you can choose, like, study music, 45 minutes. And it allows for you to, like, you know, listen. For me, I really appreciate, like, brown, you know, noise playing in the background. And so this app has everything for me in terms of, like, sometimes I wake up and I want to meditate. Sometimes I wake up and I want to, like, be given affirmations by somebody I inspire. And sometimes I'm just like, I need to get to work and I want to have beautiful music playing in the background. And so I find that that app is. It's an essential for me. It really is.
- [07:15]
Sheila Marie
And the Oura app.
- [07:17]
Madison Utter
Oura Ring. Yes. I wear this thing called an Oura Ring. O U R A. And it's a sleep and steps tracker and you charge it once a week and it basically will tell you you wake up and It'll be like, you did not sleep well. Yeah, you did not sleep well. Maybe you should just do yoga today. Actually, today you should not work out at all. Or it'll be like, you are well rested, you got solid sleep. Go on that run. And why it's amazing for me is like, there are days I wake up and I think I'm tired, but I look at my app and I'm like, I got eight and a half hours of sleep. And it's like telling me that, like, I have the physical energy to work out and I feel amazing. And then there are days I'm like, I don't feel very well or like, I didn't sleep well. And it's like, you're gonna rest today and it gives you this permission. Yeah, it's amazing.
- [08:04]
Ritual Ad
And it's amazing.
- [08:06]
Sheila Marie
Am going to look into that. Yeah, it's amazing because sometimes. Yeah, that's. It's just good insight to know. Again, this is speaking to what we're going to talk about, that you're not always on. You're not always at 100%. And again, I feel like women need to hear permission so often. Like, give yourselves especially and anyone living under a capitalist society where your value is tied to your output and your ability to be productive. It's. We really need so many reminders and so much permission to, like, take a break.
- [08:37]
Madison Utter
Absolutely.
- [08:37]
Sheila Marie
I love that.
- [08:38]
Madison Utter
Yeah. And I say this all the time, but I mean it. Like, the system is designed to keep black people and women tired. As long as we're tired, we can't do much. So one of the biggest ways, I mean, this is what the book Rest Is Resistance is about. That we can have power in this world is being rested.
- [08:57]
Sheila Marie
Trisha Hersey?
- [08:58]
Madison Utter
Yes.
- [08:59]
Sheila Marie
Oh, okay. Yes. I have that book, the NAT Ministry. I also have that book. I was like, are we talking about the same book? Yeah. You definitely sound like you're a student of Trisha Hershey.
- [09:08]
Madison Utter
I'm a big student of hers. She is founder ministry.
- [09:11]
Sheila Marie
Right, absolutely. But I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead.
- [09:14]
Madison Utter
No, no, I was just saying that, like, that she enlightened me in the biggest way that, like, one of the ways that we can fight back against white supremacy and misogyny is by being rested. And we think we're helpless in that way, but if we take the time. And I also caveat and say that to have the ability and flexibility to rest is also a privilege. But many of us that have that privilege do not take advantage of it. And I know a lot of Very privileged people who don't sleep and they're on their phone or they're working 10 hours more than they need to, and they don't live paycheck to paycheck, and they're not resting. And I question why. Why do we do that to ourselves? It's one of the one ways we can actually fight back.
- [09:56]
Sheila Marie
It seems that there's this interesting sense of pride in how little you can rest and how much you work. And when your value as a human is tied to how much work you can do, it's really hard for many people, I feel like, to separate that.
- [10:13]
Madison Utter
Absolutely.
- [10:13]
Sheila Marie
And that's part of the work I'm doing in my own life, too. I find, like, why do I feel guilty right now because I'm laying down. Why do I feel like there's something. It's just that thing. There's something I should be doing right now, something. Something I could do, and I'm actively fighting against that.
- [10:30]
Madison Utter
I feel you.
- [10:30]
Sheila Marie
Yes, absolutely. So we're on the kind of topic of burnout. I want to talk a little bit about that, because I know that burnout is common. I experience burnout. I am actively fighting against getting burnout right now.
- [10:44]
Madison Utter
I feel you, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:47]
Sheila Marie
But you've turned it into, like, a true calling. And so I want to know what drives your. For this work, especially because you're somebody whose work lives largely in the digital space. And so how. Tell me how these things work together.
- [11:01]
Madison Utter
Yeah, great. Great question. Thank you for that question. Great question. So I got into this work. Where I really became interested in it is I spent years as a very sick person, and no one told me that it was because I was basically killing myself, was of overwork and stress. I had chronic pancreatitis, which every doctor I went to was like, this doesn't make any sense. You're, like, either secretly an alcoholic or you're, like, actually 95 years old. Like, we don't see this in women in their 20s. I was 25 at the time. I had cystic acne. At one point. My white blood cell count was so low that they thought I had leukemia. I mean, really, really, really pushed my body to an extreme that it was falling apart, and no one could figure out what was wrong. I was so sick. And then I eventually went to this black gastro because I was in. I was like, maybe it's just because I'm seeing all these white doctors, and they're not taking my pain seriously, as, you know, we experience. And I went to A black doctor. And he ran all the tests and he was like, I'm black. I'm not, I'm not with you. It's, there's nothing actually wrong with you. You need to take a look at your life. Yes. He read me and I was like shocked. He was like, I've seen this before and I see it in women more than I see it in anybody else. I see it in black women. You need to take a look at your life. And I did. And the one thing that I observed was that I might. Not only did I hate my job, I started to observe how my body responded every morning when I woke up and I had to go to work. How I felt when my boss would message me on email or Slack, the guttural reactions I would have. And I was like, wow, I'm like constantly in stress with these people and working here. And so I realized like, I have to get out of this environment. And I did and I quit. And I haven't had pancreatitis since. But it really woke me up into understanding that like burnout is deeply misunderstood. It expresses itself in so many different ways. Not one person outside this doctor, and I'm talking years and years and years of testing was said, you need to take a look at your life and your job. And my obsession with understanding burnout was rooted initially in this like deep curiosity of like, how am I an extremely privileged person who has agency and autonomy having this experience? What has capitalism, what has the work environment in this world done to me? Or I've absorbed and changed my identity to exist within a system that isn't doing me any favors. And I also then realized that a lot of people with privilege, and when I say privilege, I don't mean wealth, I mean a job. If you are a knowledge worker, which is 33% of this country, is people who do not have to wake up and do physical labor. To me that is privilege is. If you are a knowledge worker, you have to take stock of your self worth. And thinking how burnout is also a product, in my opinion of an identity crisis. How did I get to a point where I'm letting my boss, a random ass person in the world, dictate my well being. I could. I mean the reality was that like I did not value myself, I didn't value that I actually could have found another job or could have gone and worked for someone else or learned how to say no or created boundaries, maybe didn't sleep with my phone next to my bed. I wasn't doing anything for Me and I burned out. And it really set me on this, this course of trying to unpack and help other women understand how much a burnout is related to self worth. It is systemic, but a lot of self worth is tied to it and how we have more agency than we realize to not burn out by really prioritizing rest and our well being. And that became, you know, that's really become my life's work in so many ways.
- [15:10]
Sheila Marie
So I'm assuming that that impulse led you to create your newsletter, which is dedicated to unplugging and so what's your hope? I was going to ask you what inspired you to create it, but you just literally explained that. So what is the hope that this would impact you hope that this newsletter has.
- [15:31]
Madison Utter
Great question. Yeah, I think the biggest hope for me is realizing that really empowering people to understand that prevention is as valuable as recovery, that we exist in this world, that we only start to get better after we've gotten really sick and we never actually think about, well, we could have done things to maybe not have gotten that sick. And so if I can guide someone to give them an inkling, understanding that maybe they're in the process of burning out, maybe they need to actually take steps to protect and heal themselves before they reach the point of no return. That's the goal. I think that we exist in this era of wellness which is all about like repair, recharge, recover, and those things are great. But in the end, like if you were as burnt out as I was and I've been multiple, there ain't no massage that's going to help you really feel better longer than those 60 minutes, you know what I mean? Like, you feel better temporarily, but in the end you got to go back to work. So I'm really hoping that people understand that there are things you can do to be preventative and to help yourself. And I'm also like a big believer in encouraging people to quit their jobs and starting over. And so I hope that this newsletter is a guide for people on that journey and providing them some sort of resource for that.
- [16:50]
Sheila Marie
Wow. Every time you answer a question, my mind has 10 other questions that I want to ask you about everything.
- [16:58]
Ritual Ad
As the summer sizzle fades, it's time to establish a wellness routine that's here to stay. Ritual is shaking up the supplement industry with their focus on traceable science and high quality ingredients. They've got every base covered from their clinically backed women's 18 multivitamin to their stress relief and sleep melatonin, both using first of its kind bio series technology designed to optimize formula delivery For a limited time get up to 40% off your first month at ritual.com podcast with the summer sizzle starting to fizzle, cooler heads are looking to lock in a wellness routine fit for the fall and beyond. Lucky for you, Ritual's high standards don't drop with the temperature. Fully committed to traceable science and sourcing, Ritual is shaking up the supplement industry with high quality ingredients and scientifically developed formulas. With them, you know what you're taking, where it comes from and why it's important. They've got every base covered, from their clinically backed women's 18 plus multivitamin to groundbreaking options like stress relief and sleep melatonin, which both use first of its kind bio series technology designed to optimize formula delivery. And right now, for a limited time, get up to 40% off your first month@ritual.com podcast I want to speak to Black women specifically.
- [18:10]
Sheila Marie
I mean, pretty much this podcast is always speaking to black women. And I feel very affirmed in my choice to do so. Especially after seeing the exit polls yesterday and the election results. I have seen a wave. It could just be my algorithm, and it probably is because my algorithm is mainly black women. But I saw the large sentiment was I'm resting now. I am sitting this one out. I feel that I'm taking up the charge for everyone. Black women are always on the right side of history. You can't point to any humanitarian crisis in history that black women have been on the wrong side of. We are always showing up for the most marginalized and we rarely ever get that support back. So what I saw from a lot of black women since Tuesday was like, I'm resting. I'm starting a garden. I'm starting a book club. I'm focusing on my community. I'm pouring into the black woman in my life. And so that's. I was kind of. That felt like a silver lining to me in some way. And so, you know, for black women, there's a cultural expectation to always keep going no matter what. And a lot of Black women are so proud of how much they've been through and how much resilience. And even in the romantic space, there's that ride or die thing that there's this expectation that no matter what you throw at black women, ah, we can handle this. So why do you think, well, what do you think the implications of that are? Especially as it relates to burnout and unplugging?
- [19:47]
Madison Utter
Yeah, I mean, I am too resting. I do not feel right now in this exact moment that there is any responsibility on me as a black woman to go out there and take charge. I think that. I mean, we really did our work. I am proud of us. We came through. We did what we needed to do. It did not have the results we deserved. But I hope black women, at least despite the disappointment, can also find a sense of being proud of ourselves. I think we can take the. Take this moment to rest because we sure as hell gave it our fucking best. And so I'm like, take the damn vacation. Take the space like you gave. We gave it our all and we are worthy of that break because we also know it is in us to keep on fighting. The fight isn't stopped. We know none of us are going to start 2025 and be like, whatever, no, we have a whole four years ahead of us. So I encourage it. I think the implications right now are greater if we don't rest. I think what we experienced in 2021 was a sense of we don't need to do anything more because Biden won and we can rest. And I think there was some truth to that, but there also clearly wasn't because this is. We ended up where we ended up. I don't just mean black women, I mean Democrats and I guess you could say third party as well. But I would argue now that after we rest is a question that we can also give ourselves some time to think about. I think that we live in an era where people feel an immediacy and urgency to having a point of view and opinion. But we are being given a moment to actually do some internal work, do some self interrogation, asking tough questions, really thinking about our purpose, our value, what do we want to actually have a voice in moving forward and that I'm encouraging people to not feel a need to respond. That urgent sense of urgency in this exact moment is false. It's totally false. And the implications are dangerous if we don't give ourselves this time.
- [22:00]
Sheila Marie
Okay, so you are basically saying it's our duty to unplug right now, 100%. So when you say that, I go, okay, yes, I agree with you. But how it can feel daunting if I go, okay, all right, she's right. Madison told me I need to unplug. My body's telling me I need to unplug. But this work is not stopping. I still have emails in my inbox. I still have kids. I still have. What would you say to the woman who responds like that?
- [22:29]
Madison Utter
I think these two things can exist at the same time. And until we understand that nuance and accept that nuance, we're always going to find an if and, and but you can, you do have kids. We do have kids. We have husbands, we have kids, we have wives, we have full families. And it doesn't mean don't take care of them. It doesn't mean they don't matter. But I think black women have been told to put ourselves last to a detriment and then given the excuse of because of all these things, we need to get back to work. And my argument is Tricia's argument, which is that if we look at energy as a resource and we all have a certain amount of energy expenditure available to us at every single day, and because we are black in America and because we are women, we're already operating on a very oppressed energy level. If we try to then operate with 5% of our energy and spirit left, how are we ever going to get even close to 100? It's not going to happen. Trisha's theory is like white supremacy is keeping black women tired. So if we don't learn to carve moments of rest, it doesn't have to be going to the Bahamas. It could literally mean, I'm going to put my phone away tonight at 8:00. It could mean turning to your partner and say, can you hold it down tomorrow morning for me? I just need one morning this week. It can mean going on a walk and deleting that Instagram account for 2 hours, 30 minutes. These are moments of rest that we do not give ourselves. And I think we totally misunderstand when we say take that time. I think we're misunderstanding what that time is actually supposed to look like and what it actually can look like. And if we say it has to be a vacation or if you live in New York City, a $200 massage, of course we're not going to say it's not available to us, but I ask people to look at the opportunities they have in the little moments in the minutia, in the day to day. Where can you take back your time and listen, you can.
- [24:31]
Sheila Marie
I quoted Tricia Hersey's work in my book as well, because I'm also a student of hers and I, I love her work so much. And there's a. Because in my book there's a chapter about rest and one of the ways that I advocated for rest in there is also through dream work. So. And I feel like you are speaking to that as well, because I think that one thing I don't want us to lose is our ability to dream. Whether I mean, this is like many meanings. Whether I mean actually going to sleep and having dreams. That's one. But I really mean to imagine. And I think you cannot imagine when you're tired.
- [25:07]
Madison Utter
Yeah.
- [25:08]
Sheila Marie
And sometimes rest makes space for the aha. Moments. Rest. Make space for things to coalesce creatively or just give you new. Imagine, like creative problem solving, new ideas for yourself and others. And ultimately, if you don't rest, you don't dream. And if you don't dream, you're always going to be relegated to living out someone else's imagination.
- [25:30]
Madison Utter
Oh, 100% brilliant. No, I'm completely with you. 100. No, I think you're exactly right. I think dream work is so important. And ingenuity also comes out of boredom. And we've lost. We've lost that. We've. We. I'm like, why are people on the phone when they're. Why are they listening to a podcast when in the shower? Why are we on the phone when we're on a toilet? Like, all of these moments that we're, like, supposed to just be in our own thoughts, which are technically boring. We have filled with our phones, but new ideas do not come from the dopamine hits that your phone is giving you. They do not come.
- [26:08]
Sheila Marie
So when you go to the bathroom, you don't bring your phone?
- [26:10]
Madison Utter
I do not bring my phone.
- [26:11]
Sheila Marie
And you don't bring your phone to the shower.
- [26:13]
Madison Utter
Nope. Do not. I have this little thing. I actually keep it next to my desk. These people should be paying me. This is not an advertisement, but I swear by this thing. It's called a brick, and it's a magnet. And you can basically, it's an app and a magnet, and you choose what apps you want. You want blocked, and you tap your phone on the magnet and it blocks those apps. And so. And I keep one on my desk, in my bed, in my gym, and then I have one on my fridge. And when I feel myself getting too absorbed in the phone, I tap it and it. It blocks tips. TikTok, Pinterest, and Instagram for me. And when I'm on.
- [26:48]
Sheila Marie
Wait a minute, what did Pinterest do?
- [26:51]
Madison Utter
I just go on the girl. I'm like, I love fashion, so I will be on these. I'm making boards all the time.
- [26:56]
Sheila Marie
You're amazing with fashion, by the way. I was looking at your page, and I was like, oh, my God, I wish I could dress like that. I don't have the imagination for it.
- [27:05]
Madison Utter
I Just go to the store.
- [27:06]
Sheila Marie
And I'm like, what?
- [27:07]
Madison Utter
Oh, girl. I feel. I'm like, I love fashion. I got a board on Pinterest for everywhere. I'm not even gonna be. I'll be like, red carpet. And I'm like, I don't want any red carpets, but I got a red carpet board, let me tell you. And so I brick my phone, and it's so helpful. So I brick it at night. Because we all have been there. We've all been on those, like, you know, endless dopamine scrolls, but, you know, that blue light and getting those dopamine hits. All you need is to see something that is emotionally triggering and you can sleep. Cannot sleep. So these are the little moments I'm talking about. It's not a vacation, but it is. These are moments of rest.
- [27:49]
Sheila Marie
That's so important to note that you're saying unplugging is not an zero sum game. It's not. We're. We're not saying, turn off everything, don't watch Netflix. She's saying to be specific and intentional about creating moments where you unplug. And I feel like that feels very sustainable rather than restrictive, which is what I was initially thinking.
- [28:13]
Madison Utter
I'm going to say something pretty bold. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think actually burnout and overwork and exhaustion is how Trump won the election.
- [28:22]
Sheila Marie
Oh, wake it up.
- [28:24]
Madison Utter
I say it for two reasons.
- [28:25]
Sheila Marie
As Gen Z says, clock that.
- [28:27]
Madison Utter
Yes, I really do. People are like, what's the cause of this election? And I'm like, it's overwork and burnout. And I say this for two reasons. One, I think that. And I'm a Democrat. I'm a proud Democrat, but I think we stopped listening to people and stopped believing them when they said they're working three jobs and can't afford to take care of their kids. And we underestimated how tired those people are.
- [28:51]
Sheila Marie
What do you mean?
- [28:52]
Madison Utter
The majority of people who voted for Trump are people who are working multiple jobs, who are making under $75,000 a year, who are living paycheck to paycheck, irrespective of race. Those are the people who are majority voting for him, who voted for him. Those people are really tired because they cannot support themselves in this economy, in the world that we're living in right now. What was once the American dream, where you could actually have a job making 60 grand a year and somehow still be able to buy a house, is impossible. Those people are tired, and I'm not making any excuses for them. But I'm talking about how did we end up here? I think it's a group of really exhausted people whose lack of education and lack of critical thinking have blinded them to understand that they're going to be in worse positions than they were before, but whose fatigue, exhaustion, and burnout have guided them to make this incredibly poor choice. We have forgotten about those people. Black, white, Latino, whatever. People are fucking tired. And when people are tired, they will take a bet to get some rest. And I think that's a stupid. I think that's a stupid. It's stupid because these. This mother, this man does not care about them. But when people are confused, I'm like, it's really that simple. And I also. Go ahead, go ahead.
- [30:14]
Sheila Marie
Sorry. You just made me think of something. One of my favorite pastimes. Guilty. Don't judge me. Is I listen to podcasts a lot.
- [30:22]
Madison Utter
Yeah, same. Oh, same.
- [30:23]
Sheila Marie
And one of my favorite podcasts is called Was I in a Cult? And it's just interviews with small cults, unknown cults. Big people will come on there and share their experiences. And one theme that comes up all in every single cult formation is exhaustion, is they get you tired. Because when you're tired, you can't really see what's going on and you don't have the energy to fight back. So I feel like this is hearing. When I hear those podcasts, on the individual level, this feels like what we're going through as a country where we're all just getting so tired that we're, like, losing the will to fight back. You know, I talk to some of my friends who are mothers, and I don't have time to think about what's going on in politics. I got dinner and pickup and drop off and, you know, or whatever it may be. And so I think you are speaking. You are onto something so profound, Madison.
- [31:19]
Madison Utter
I mean, it's the only thing I can. And I have two, really. My husband did a lot of phone banking, and he ended up one woman that he spoke to on the phone. He was on the phone with this woman for 20 minutes. You would act. I was like, do you know her? Like, how is she on the phone with you for this long? And she was an undecided voter. And she kept talking, she kept saying how she is not. She doesn't care about the election because she is so fucking tired because she's working three jobs and she doesn't know how she's going to pay her rent next month. That the election was the last thing she was thinking about because she was in survival mode. And when she came up for air and Trump said, I'm going to. I'm going to lower taxes. I'm going to get you your money back. She said, okay. That simple.
- [32:07]
Sheila Marie
Wow.
- [32:08]
Madison Utter
That simple. It's not right. And I don't want anyone thinking.
- [32:12]
Sheila Marie
I am not.
- [32:13]
Madison Utter
I'm not making excuses for people, but it's just what it is. And I think the ignorance as well, unfortunately, unfortunately. That I also think is just tragic is black people who voted for him, I think, are also people who are so tired and beaten down from this system that they are blinded by the fact that they feel for the first time they're included in this white supremacy world that they're usually on the outside of, they get to be a part of maga. These people who have been shutting them out, telling them they're worthless, or falsely making them feel like they're a part of something. And I only think you fall for that if the system has made you so tired and broken you down.
- [32:55]
Sheila Marie
Yes, that. Yes, yes, yes. I want to take another tangent, but I'm not. I'm gonna stay focused again. Every time you talk, my brain goes ping, ping.
- [33:06]
Madison Utter
No, no, I just. Burnout is connected to this. We ended up here. Timely.
- [33:11]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, no, it's. It very much is. And I didn't think before this interview that we would be talking about the election, but now that we have brought it in, it just seems so inextricably linked. So I do think that it is relative. I mean, related and relevant. Yeah, I want to talk about technology for just a second because we're talking about burnout and unplugging. And when I think about unplugging, I think about how inextricably linked technology is to my life now. Smart home, smart car, smart house, smartphone, smart watch. You know, your coffee maker has WI fi, your fridge has WI fi, your toaster has fucking WI fi. Everything's connected and smart. And my fucking by. I'm like, why does everything. Why does this candle need wi fi? Like, everything's connected. So I'm wondering with. We're inundated with technology everywhere. Like, everywhere there's some device or something that's going to make our lives simpler. So for you, because you're in the media space, you're in the digital space. Was there one defining moment that made you realize, oh, my God, I need to take a step back. This. Everything is going like, hold on, yo.
- [34:20]
Madison Utter
Yes, I. My career and success in the beginning of my career was exclusively based off of kind of being Ahead of this, like, what was considered social media strategy. So when I was, you know, I got two Webby Awards and all these things in 2015 and 2016 for working in social media and the strategies I built for a couple brands. Why I bring that up is that my relationship to social media, my phone, was not just unhealthy, it was toxic because it was tied to my livelihood. And I think a lot of us still are in that. Really. It's hard, right? Especially if you're an influencer or you're a creator, Your livelihood is tied to your phone. But in the same way that we know that alcohol and over consumption is bad for you, smoking is bad for you, drugs are bad for you. In the same way that we think about these things, I think we also need to think about our phones that way too. And I think about my phone as, like, wine, right? Like, if you have it every now and then, not gonna kill you. You can enjoy it. It can help a great party, have a good dinner. But if you drank that all the time, you would undeniably have a problem. So you have to have boundaries around alcohol. I have boundaries around alcohol. I've got boundaries around a lot of things in my life. My phone has proven to be something that requires boundaries.
- [35:45]
Sheila Marie
What are some of your digital boundaries?
- [35:47]
Madison Utter
Yeah, I am. I put my. I mean, this brick again. I hesitate on saying this because these people are not paying me, but I know, right? Girl, I'm about to. I've never done one of those, like, outreaches, partnership outreach. I'm about to email them with my.
- [36:00]
Sheila Marie
Pitch for how much I'll send them this episode. See?
- [36:07]
Madison Utter
But I use the brick a lot, and I use the brick in moments when I feel like I can no longer. I'm like, doomsday scrolling, and I can't stop because I also think that it's okay to acknowledge that there's times where this feels bigger than me. It feels bigger than us. You know, when you're just like, I have been in the scrolls that have been so bad that, like, my shoulder and my forearm had.
- [36:24]
Sheila Marie
Have hurt me too.
- [36:26]
Madison Utter
Because you're just like the. Yes. Okay. We've all been there. So I've come to accept that, like, I actually. My brain is operating in a way that my body is not always responding to. And so these tools, like a physical brick, help me actually create that boundary when I feel like I can't create it for myself. There's no shame there. I think we carry a lot of shame. But I always. I say to myself, Every day, no judgment, no guilt, no shame. What decision would I make? And that's one of the decisions I need to make for myself a lot.
- [36:53]
Oh, I love that.
- [36:54]
The other is I put my phone on airplane mode at night. So what that means is that, like, I cannot be reached, and I get to decide in the morning when I check my email. When.
- [37:08]
Sheila Marie
Wait, when. When do you put it on? Exactly.
- [37:10]
Madison Utter
I'll put it on when I get into bed, and then I'll read my book. But it's really for my morning. I spent. I've spent, I would say, in the entire history of my. Of having a phone. I don't know how many years that's been. Up until I started airplaning my phone at night, which is probably about five years ago. I let other people decide how I started my day. Right? We don't. We wake up and we check our phone. You could have gotten a text. A girlfriend of yours is going through some tough times. A boss calls you, you get a slack message, and all of a sudden you're in your bed with one eye open, and your day is being completely dictated by somebody else's decision. Call, text you, message you in that moment. And I said to myself, five years ago, I was like, why am I letting other people decide how to start my day? Because I'm someone. Like, how I start my day dictates my day. I'm one of those people. If I wake up and I'm in the day and I'm in a bad mood, I'm probably in a bad mood all day. I wish I wasn't one of those people, but that's just how I'm wired. And so the digital boundary of putting my phone on airplane mode gives me the agency and autonomy in saying, madison, how do you want your day to be? And so I have my coffee, I journal, I meditate, I do what I need to do. Sometimes I work out first thing in the morning, and then I take my phone off of airplane mode and I say, okay, I have done me. I am good. I am settled. My my regulated my mood. I've done what I needed to do for myself that I can do for myself this morning. Now, what does the world want to offer me?
- [38:41]
Sheila Marie
Oh, I so want to try that. I think I used to do that a lot more, and now I've stopped doing that because I have this irrational fear that something will happen to one of my family members or something in the middle of the night and they'll need to reach me, and my phone will be on airplane mode and I'll miss it. But I wonder.
- [38:58]
Madison Utter
Wait, can I respond to that really quickly?
- [39:00]
Sheila Marie
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:01]
Madison Utter
Okay. So that was my fear, too. And that's where, like, there's certain apps you can also download that block all. But you can either use this damn brick or download an app and allow for. If there's one that my husband uses that, like, if you get a call three times, it'll alert a sound, but otherwise you're like, everything's blocked. So that I think helps a lot of people with anxiety. But I once had. I expressed this to my therapist a couple years ago before I started doing this. And I said to him, I can't do that. And he said, why? He said, why can't you do it? And I said the same thing you said. I said, if someone dies in the middle of the night, like, I need to be able to know. And he said back to me, why do you think if you found out in the morning, it would be any better or worse? And he's right. He's like, if someone you love passes away in the middle of the night, it's not going to be any less traumatic if you got eight hours of sleep. And I didn't really have a counter argument to that. Right. Like that. That is the truth. Like that experience, that tragedy, that unfortunate news would be no different. And so give yourself the rest. And that's what I've done since.
- [40:19]
Sheila Marie
Thank you for that. I am going to thank you for your.
- [40:21]
Madison Utter
It's hard. It's hard. But I thought he was right. I thought. I really. It resonated with me.
- [40:25]
Sheila Marie
It's a good point. I wonder about urgency culture and this idea of unplugging. I think now one thing that's very harmful for me in my life, where I feel is very grinding. I think that's how it feels in my body lately, is corporate and this fake, manufactured sense of urgency. I'm having to be in corporate space. I cannot tolerate corporate spaces. That's probably why my career is not in certain places. I just don't have the temperament for it. I can't do it. But one thing that really grinds me whenever I do interact is this urgency. Everything is urgent. This email is urgent. You need this thing. And it's like, okay, but we're not like shooting a rocket off onto the moon or something. You know what I mean? We're not in the. We're not in the cancer ward of a children's hospital. But it just feels all the time urgent now. It would be one Thing if we just had urgency culture, when you enter a workspace nine to five, it's already bad, but that would be one thing. But we're not like our parents generation who they were working and then at 5 o'clock they clocked out and went home and no one could reach them. I don't even know if we make space for how urgency culture is affecting us inside the workplace and out, especially with us expecting to be on all the time. My family, everybody is expecting to contact you all the time. People expect answers all the time. Work emails, it doesn't matter. I know, now I get work emails, it doesn't matter. At night, sometimes they respect expect responses on Sundays, on Saturdays. So what? How do you factor in all of that with the idea of having digital boundaries? How do you deal with the guilt or the FOMO or, you know, the feeling that you're a bad friend for not responding?
- [42:20]
Madison Utter
Great. Yeah, no, it's an excellent point. I will start this by saying I have done a lot of work on this. I think sometimes when you listen to these podcasts and these people make it seem like it's, you know, just don't give a fuck. And I'm like, it's taken me a really long time to get here. So everything I'm about to say, I say to anyone who's listening to this, like, it's about putting in the reps to get to this level, in this mindset. It's a day to, day to day effort and it took me years to get here. And I can promise you it's worth it. But I say to myself, I say it every single day, no judgment, no guilt, no shame, what would I do? And the reality is, if you can eliminate judgment, self judgment, self guilt and shame, most of the times urgency culture is not relevant to you. If someone emails me at 10 o'clock and I say, no judgment, no guilt, no shame, I am not responding to them because I don't care. That's their issue. That's not my issue. I will shame myself. And that's the, that's the pattern is you're shaming yourself to think, I got to get back to this person because I care that they think I'm a hard worker. Why do you need to care so much about what they think? I don't, I don't need that person to tell me that I'm a hard worker. I know I'm a hard worker. I don't need some random person who has no personal boundaries on their life dictating or trying to shame me from the boundaries I have in mind. And that idea of somebody else's opinion of you is what I think dictates urgency culture. It's this sense that they will think I am not passionate about this, that I don't want this opportunity, that this isn't important to me if I don't respond on a Sunday versus the reframe of that is that person's personal choice that they are making. That makes no impact on who I am as Newton Dahl and how I show up in this world. We do not have to absorb someone else's lack of boundaries. That's not a personal responsibility of mine. It's not a personal responsibility of anyone else's. And so the longer that we feed into this urgency, this sense of urgency and our connection of self worth to participating and urgency culture, we will be in this loop. But I single handedly thinks it's a self worth issue and I single handedly think it's a insecurity in what that other person is going to think about us. And the reality is people have their own opinions. How many people do we have? Do we all know in the world where you have an opinion of them and they can show you they're not that person, you're like, Karen is still a bitch. Right. These opinions sometimes are formed. So you trying to prove something to somebody is usually a waste of time.
- [45:05]
Sheila Marie
Period.
- [45:07]
Madison Utter
It takes time though, to get here. It takes time.
- [45:10]
Sheila Marie
Thank you for saying that because I know somebody out there needed to hear that. I want to ask a question about social media. I know that you, you're not an influencer. I wouldn't say that. You caught. You don't call yourself an influencer, right? No, that's not.
- [45:25]
Madison Utter
No, I say I'm influential.
- [45:27]
Sheila Marie
Yes, which. Which you are.
- [45:29]
Madison Utter
And that's how I put it. Like I'm a businesswoman first, but. And a creative first. But I acknowledge that I am influential. I think I kind of like fall into more of a creator space than an influencer space. But who, who knows? That's all the same in my opinion.
- [45:42]
Sheila Marie
Okay, so what advice. What do you say to this age of social media where like everything feels like it has to be documented and I struggle with this all the time. What do you share? I mean, a part of me building my platform was on vulnerability and transparency and sharing. But then you also want to keep some things private. And then I just feel that there's this encroaching in our private space more and more where we feel the need to share and the Boundaries are kind of blurry. And so what do you say to that?
- [46:14]
Madison Utter
I say that if you can, ask yourself how. If you can. If you. How do you. How do you think you'll respond to seeing this piece of content on the Internet five or six years from now? How do you think about content you posted five or six years ago? I don't know, but I have gone through my Instagram many a times and archived a lot of things. I've been like, why the hell did I share that?
- [46:41]
Sheila Marie
Okay, I'm glad it's not just me.
- [46:43]
Madison Utter
You know what I mean? I'm like, my archive is.
- [46:46]
Sheila Marie
Is full.
- [46:47]
Madison Utter
Because I'm like, why did I think I needed people to know this about me? Why did I need to share this part of my life?
- [46:53]
Sheila Marie
But no judgment, no getting, no shame. That's who we was at the time.
- [46:56]
Madison Utter
And it was on brand, right? It worked for the era. But I think that sometimes we kind of forget that there is, like, a past, present and future to what we put online. And even the other day, I just got my photos back from my wedding, and the photographer asked if she could share some. And at first I was like, yeah, go for it. I don't care. And then I was like, you know, what do I want my ceremony photos to be on the Internet? What. What remains sacred for me then? And I said that to her. I was like, you know what? You can post the parties, but let's keep the ceremony and the intimate moments with my friends and family. I would like to hold that sacred. And she was like, that's a beautiful way of thinking about this.
- [47:39]
Sheila Marie
Congratulations, by the way. I saw your picture posted.
- [47:43]
Madison Utter
Thank you. But I think that's kind of the question about our private lives is like, what if we share everything, then what remains sacred? And I think in a world where so much of us is available, I think we honor ourselves by keeping some things to ourselves. Now I think you just have to decide what that is. For some people, it's like they will not share their children. Some people don't share their romantic relationship. Some people don't talk about work. Right. And you only see them as the influencer. And you don't actually see, like, how they pay their bills. And so I see no issue with choosing to be, like, chronically online, but I only see an issue with it. If there's nothing that feels like a part of your private life that feels.
- [48:23]
Sheila Marie
Like it's yours, that you don't have anything to yourself.
- [48:25]
Madison Utter
Yeah, I think you gotta honor some things to yourself and decide what that is, and to each their own. Because I do feel like you lose yourself or you feel raw and vulnerable. If all of you is online, I think that's a good distinction.
- [48:40]
Sheila Marie
That's a good distinction. If there's nothing left for you and it's all online, is there anything sacred in your life? That's very. That's an interesting question. I don't even know the answer to that. But that's making me think about my own life and what I do and don't share.
- [48:55]
Madison Utter
Yeah. And it's to each their own. Right. Like, I have friends who, like, they post their kids all the time, and they want people to see their children, and they're inspiring to other families. And then I have people who, like, you know, they get shamed by it, because people in this world are crazy, but people are like, she's not taking care of her kids. We never see her with her children. I'm like, she made that decision. She decided to keep her kids sacred for her. It's to each their own. Right.
- [49:22]
Sheila Marie
And so there's a lot of opinions. That's a whole nother conversation about.
- [49:26]
Madison Utter
Yeah, that's a whole other opinion. But I do think sacred. Think keeping things sacred for yourself and choosing what that is is maybe the way to find a healthy balance between pursuing an online career, having an online career, and also having a private life.
- [49:39]
Sheila Marie
It's great advice. What do you think we, as a society, risk losing if we don't create boundaries with technology?
- [49:49]
Madison Utter
Taste, personal taste. I think that's like, oh, my goodness.
- [49:55]
Sheila Marie
That's an aha moment for me. Can you speak more to that?
- [49:59]
Madison Utter
Yeah, I think that. I mean, I. I went through. I'll speak from my own personal experience. I. And I give my parents credit for this because not a lot of black people do let people let their kids go to the phases. I went through every kind of phase you could think of as a teenager. I went through a goth phase. I went through a Malia phase. I went through, like, a preppy phase. Like, I literally went through it all. My parents every week were like, they knew I was gonna grow out of it, so they let me experiment.
- [50:25]
Sheila Marie
I love this for you, and I love this for your parents.
- [50:28]
Madison Utter
Oh, they were like, whatever. She's in her Juicy couture phase. I was not allowed to wear the pants that said Juicy on the butt. That was the one thing my dad, he also wouldn't let me leave the house in sweatpants. He would always say, my blackouts were too damn hard. If you leave the house Looking like a bum. And so we were not allowed to wear sweatsuits out of the house. Go get it. So we refused. What do we do as teenagers? We just put it in our bags, right? We changed when we got to school into sweatsuits. But I say all that because, like, my self expression in fashion and of who I was came from the freedom I subconsciously had as a young adult and as a teenager in deciding what I liked and didn't like. Right? Like, I had to go through the phase of being a goth for the two weeks I was a goth and was like, I don't actually really like this. I don't feel like myself. I don't like putting on black makeup like this. This is not for me. And we have lost that. I see kids these days dressing identically. And I think the reason is, is because, like, social media, when we have these moments of self assessment of like, do I like this? You now have the opportunity to go online and verify if you do like it, that it's worthy of being like, versus before you had to take the risk of wearing it, being out in the world, and then deciding for yourself, how do I feel? Social media, in my opinion, has lost. We've lost that in so many ways. And so the danger is, I think we've actually entered an era of people don't know their personal taste. If I see one damn Mario, another Mario, fake Mario Bellini couch on Instagram. Do you know what I'm talking about? Those damn couches.
- [52:10]
Sheila Marie
I do, I do. Because your Pinterest is fashion. My Pinterest is like home design. Like, I will spend hours, so I know exactly what you're talking about. And then I think I fell into that trap because I became an LTK girly. And so I was on LTK and Pinterest. And then before I look up, I'm like, my guest room looks like everybody's guest room.
- [52:32]
Madison Utter
But you have personal taste. So you had the ability to practice discernment and be like, I don't like that. This looks like everything else. Right? Like, if you don't have personal taste, you see that and you're like, okay.
- [52:46]
Sheila Marie
But you know what? You clocked for me that really you. This is such a gift for me. I hope this is a gift for all of our listeners. Is that I noticed that I didn't even know that I do this. So I do exactly what you just said. So I'll. I'll be like, Like, I need two dining chairs right now. Right? Like, we have the four. We need the two end ones, they're different from the other four. And I'm like, what do I put at the end? What do I put at the end? What do I like? Let me see what everybody else likes. Because what everybody else likes is what I should like as opposed to. If I didn't have that reference and just literally went off what I liked, I don't even know what that would be right now, because I'm referring to home design so much from other people's images in other people's houses.
- [53:25]
Madison Utter
So I think. I mean, I pull from inspiration all the time. I think that to be inspired is a gift. I think it gets dangerous when inspiration, you know, overshadows what your actual opinion is. Right. So it's like you can still look at what everyone else is doing. I think it's important to see and be inspired. But I watch people shop and like something and then feel insecure about liking it. And then all the time, yeah, yeah.
- [53:54]
Sheila Marie
Me, because I'm a girl who's in my 30s. Literally. I didn't start developing a fashion sense until I was 30 because I was so uncomfortable with my body that I just didn't. I just. And I didn't know how to dress. I didn't know fashion. I'm still learning. And sometimes I will like something and I'll go, oh, my God, that is so cute. But that's not a style. That's not a style. Don't do that.
- [54:14]
Madison Utter
Right? And that's okay, right? Like, I think the reality is, is that, like, it's our ability to check and question these things. It's like, you know, what if I like this? And I'm not sure if anyone else likes this or if this is cool? What do I gain and learn, though, from wearing it and actually going through the experience of deciding for myself if it's actually something I want to keep, versus not giving yourself the permission, opportunity to try. And unlike furniture, which I think is a much. It's a. Designing a home is just a different ball game because, like, I understand it more in interiors of things starting to look alike because you can't. It's not like you can go back to UPS with that dining room table like it is. It takes months for it to get there. You gotta find a way to get. It's like you really. It's. It's tough because it feels like a more permanent decision. But clothing and fashion, we also have so many opportunities to resell than we've ever had before. You have Vestiere. You have the real world. You have thredup. Like, you can buy something and decide it's not for you and still make money, still send it back. And so I'm like, versus taking it to Beacon's closet like I did growing up and getting $3 for something. Right? Like, at least you'd be like, this is. This is like getting in arguments with a storekeeper, and they don't give a fuck.
- [55:32]
Sheila Marie
They give you nothing.
- [55:35]
Madison Utter
You can put your stuff now on Poshmark and set your own price. Right? Like, I think that's an opportunity to experiment, to try and to explore your taste. I mean, I was watching Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, and everyone's hating on Mary's, like, Willy Wonka decor. I don't know if you watched the show, but she's got.
- [55:53]
Sheila Marie
I did.
- [55:54]
Madison Utter
It is. She's got these, like, multicolored chairs. It is an eclectic house. And I'm like, good for Mary.
- [56:00]
Sheila Marie
Good for her.
- [56:01]
Madison Utter
You know what I mean? Good for Mary. Because a lot of people these this day and age, they won't let their own taste.
- [56:09]
Sheila Marie
Have your own, right?
- [56:11]
Madison Utter
Who cares if it's not for anybody else? She lives there.
- [56:14]
Sheila Marie
Exactly, exactly. And I think that this is not only can not only be expressed. This theme you're talking about, this theme of losing your personal taste really can be with fashion, can be with interior design, and also opinions. And so when thinking about what we lose as a society by being so involved in tech, heavily in the tech space all the time, one of the things is original thought, too, I think, and original ideas. There just seems to be like, if I hear one more conversation about 50, 50, who gives a. If that's your thing, go do it. If there's another thing about women and submission. If I hear another podcast episode about women and they need to take accountability, like, there's. It's. It's almost like we're. This is like smooth brain activity to me.
- [57:03]
Madison Utter
Okay.
- [57:04]
Sheila Marie
Literally, because at this point, we've had the conversations. And it's another reason why I started my podcast, because where are we having covered? I haven't heard your point of view ever. I. I'm learning something new talking to you. You are clearly a woman that has her own individual experiences and has formed really thought out and intelligent and mindful opinions for yourself. And this is my hope for everyone listening, is that I'm not a guru, I'm not a guide. I'm not the smartest person on the planet. I'm just someone who's really interested and invested in women really creating their own Opinions about themselves in the world.
- [57:44]
Madison Utter
I couldn't agree more. And when people are like, how did you get this way? I give. A lot of. My parents are crazy, but I give a lot of respect to them because there are two black people who grew up in a time and in circumstances where if they listened to everyone else's opinion, would have never achieved anything.
- [58:02]
Sheila Marie
Oh, I talk about that in the book so much.
- [58:05]
Madison Utter
Anything. And so they were always like, don't let anyone tell you how to think, how to be, because if you do, we won't get anywhere.
- [58:14]
Sheila Marie
We'll just be replaying the past 100%.
- [58:17]
Madison Utter
And I think that's the. I think not having original thought, not having personal taste, these are ways. And yes, I think our phones and technology contribute to this. But I think we also forget that there is a choice, right?
- [58:32]
Sheila Marie
That, like, you get to choose. Guys. I always say that. And with that, I want to bring us to the my. One of my favorite parts of the episode is the toolkit section. And I feel like you already did leave them with some practical skills and tools. But we always want to leave our listeners with something tangible and practical that they can take with them. Like, oh, my God, I love what Madison is talking about. I want to unplug. I want to really think more mindfully about not burning out. Do you have any, like, quick tips or tools that our listeners can walk away with?
- [59:02]
Madison Utter
I have. I always encourage everyone to come up with their own affirmation. That is something that can be true to you. I always say I'm worthy, I'm ready, I'm deserving, I'm grateful for this life. It's by a young man named Justin Michael Williams, who I really value.
- [59:20]
Sheila Marie
What? That's my friend. That's one of my besties. I love Justin.
- [59:27]
Madison Utter
Oh, my God. Please tell him that the first time I heard him say that affirmation. It is on a. Post it behind my laptop at my desk.
- [59:36]
Sheila Marie
Justin, I love you.
- [59:37]
Madison Utter
I say it to every morning I say it. I think he's brilliant. He's one of the people I'm, like, devoted to on Insight Timer. So download Insight Timer. That's the other one to listen to.
- [59:46]
Sheila Marie
Oh, I didn't know Justin was on there. He gets Capricorn Energy, honey.
- [59:50]
Madison Utter
Oh, he gonna be working.
- [59:52]
Sheila Marie
That's one thing about Justin.
- [59:53]
Madison Utter
The other thing I said is a tangible tool is the post it tool. So something that I always say to people when they're like. But I always forget about my affirmations. I'm like, because you got to get off script, right? Like you got to get off script. And if you were an actor you'd have to memorize your lines and what do you. And that means you got to read the script and then get off book. And so I have my affirmations everywhere because I don't want to give myself the excuse of not remembering them. The other one I say, which is like a very big tick tock trend now, but I mean it's. Which is I am Madison Udendal and great things happen to me. And I say it to myself all the time because I just believe if you don't believe that, then no one else is going to believe it. So affirmations is massive affirmations. Post its with your affirmations to get off script. And then the other one that I would say that's like a tangible tool. That is the one that's the oldest of all time, which is read some damn books. Do you know people are not reading these days? And I'm like 90% of what I'm saying and you're saying is coming from having knowledge, having read other people's books, including yours, that have distilled all of our thoughts that we collectively have into something we can digest and learn from. And there are so many teachers out there that have put down their brilliance into written form that it is on us to study and become students of. And I really believe that now you can do an audiobook, you can find a way to have that content register with you. But it is a disservice to not acknowledge the authors and writers like yourself, like Tricia, like the book I'm reading right now, which is called Essentialism, and not acknowledge that these things are out here for us to learn from. They are not here except exclusively just to have an author be like, I wrote a book, you guys wrote your books for us to consume, for us to grow from, from us to learn how to be better people. So I'm like, y'all gotta read, gotta.
- [61:55]
Sheila Marie
Read, y'all gotta read. Know the script. And I also love that you put in a little acting analogy. Cuz I have a background in acting and I weave like theatrical analogies and metaphors throughout the whole book. So I love that you, you like just brought it home. I was like, oh my God.
- [62:10]
Madison Utter
I'm like, thank you, Madison. What does every actor's acting teacher say? Right? It's like most of the time I say I did a lot of theater myself. It's like when you're not giving the best to your performance, most of the time you're not fully off script, so you can't absorb the character and be the character because you're not really sure.
- [62:29]
Sheila Marie
You'Re thinking about your lines.
- [62:30]
Madison Utter
The next line. It's the same in life. It's the same in life. Life and self worth. So.
- [62:35]
Sheila Marie
And you heard it here first. Okay. And I am Sheila Marie. And great things happen to me. I'm so. Thank you, Madison.
- [62:45]
Madison Utter
Like, honestly, great conversation.
- [62:48]
Sheila Marie
You're my best friend now. Boundaries, Sheila, boundaries. No, but I honestly, truly, truly have appreciated talking to you. I've learned so much from you, from researching you for the interview and talking to you now. You're amazing. I thank you so much. In a world where we're just constantly tethered to our phones that, you know, endlessly scrolling, stepping back can feel like a luxury that we just can't afford. But you have really opened my mind and given us tangible solutions and things that we can do so that we can create digital boundaries and so that we can unplug and remain human. It is our right to be human. It is essential to self care. And let this episode be your reminder. Please send this before I let Madison tell you where to find her. Please, if you enjoyed this episode, send it to somebody, text it to them. Text them the link. Please subscribe like the episode. All of those things go into some type of machine, technological, AI thing and help us keep going. So please, please do that. And Madison, I know people are going to be looking for you. Where is the best place where people can stay updated on what you have coming up.
- [64:02]
Madison Utter
I would say on Instagram. So it's just my first and last name, Madison Newtondall. And then my sub stack is called Burnt B U R N T. Subscribe and you hear a lot of the things that I said today and absolutely.
- [64:16]
Sheila Marie
Madison, thank you so much for joining us.
- [64:18]
Madison Utter
Thank you.
- [64:19]
Sheila Marie
Thank you all for listening. Don't forget to stay your true authentic selves. Stay unruly and definitely sometimes stay unplugged. Okay. All right. That was such a powerful conversation, wasn't it?
- [64:32]
Madison Utter
I know.
- [64:33]
Sheila Marie
So let's dive into one of my favorite parts of the show. This is the unruly community call in section. And I love this part because I love hearing from you. So let's dive right into today's question.
- [64:46]
Listener
Hey, Sheila, I want to say I love you. I love you. I've been watching you for a very, very long time. I love that you're so serene and zen. I love that. And I love you and agent's relationship. I Think that you guys compliment each other so much. My question, how do you make friends in your 30s, like have your own girl tribe? Like, I am destined to find like minded people. Like, I want to do that so much. I try Facebook groups and things like that, but it never goes anywhere. And I just find it difficult meeting people in your 30s, girlfriends and friendships. Like, I want someone I can travel with. I want someone that is also working on themselves. I am past clubs and hookah and I'm past all that and I just want someone I can like. You know, we both inspire each other. Hey girl, what's going on? I think I have one or two girlfriends like that, but they have their purpose in my life. But that's what I want to know. Sorry if it's a too long, but yeah, how do you make friends in this new era of being 30?
- [66:07]
Madison Utter
How do you make friends in your 30s? Like, she's just not feeling it. She's like, I tried the Facebook groups. I just, I cannot make friends like I want to. I just can't find a way to take to get that digital experience in real life. Like, I'm really interested in finding friends that I can travel with and do more things with. I would say this, number one, get to know yourself. Because as you said, making friends in your 30s is different from making your making friends in high school or in college. So who are you right now? What things are you interested in? What things do you like to do?
- [66:44]
Sheila Marie
What are your beliefs?
- [66:45]
Madison Utter
Like, the more you get clear about where you are and who you are, the more easier it'll be for you to know like which woman or person is a good friend for you or not. So I would say, number one, spend some time getting to know yourself. Number two, take some chances. Take some chances. I would have recommended you to look into Facebook groups and looking to see in networking online. But since you've already tried that and you're like it's not the thing for you, I think you need to take a chance in the real world. So what do I mean by take a chance? I mean engaging your hobbies in a bold way. So you, you mentioned travel. I think you like to travel. I would look for like a travel whole club. Like no madness. I don't know if you know no madness. Shout out to my friend Evie. She's the, the founder of that whole tribe. No madness tribe, but it's a black travel group and they have a Facebook group with like 30000 people in it and they are always doing trips. People are always linking up to do trips. And I think that something like that would be a great place for you to start because you can just like take a short. Take a short trip, you know, even if it's. It's a day, you know, two days. Just start small or maybe go on a group trip where you can be with people but then still be by yourself. You don't necessarily have to commit to, like, being with someone every minute of the day. I would check out no Madness Tribe on Facebook if I was you, and I would see how I can start engaging in my travel hobby a little bit more boldly. Like, really book a trip. I think if you could book a trip if in 2024, I know that's like a tall order, but even if it's a day trip, even if it's just driving an hour outside of where you live, just getting out and starting to do the things that you'd want to do with friends, doing them now, I think you'll attract the friends that you want.
- [68:32]
Sheila Marie
Okay.
- [68:33]
Madison Utter
Good luck, girl.
- [68:37]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much for sending that in. And to the rest of the unruly community, if you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice note@speakpipe.com unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of Unruly.
- [69:19]
Madison Utter
Audio up.